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akerosid
27th Jul 2006, 06:40
Michael O'Leary has responded to comments by the Bishop of London over his comments on flying being a sin.

I have to say I agree with him; when people in a position of responsibility - particularly churchmen - put things in a moralistic, absolutist way, clearly without considering all of the factors involved, it can only undermine respect.
What does the Bishop want to see happen? Sure, there are concerns about the effect of aviation on climate and as much as possible is being done to minimise the effect of this, with advances in technology and improvements in economics, but in the UK, as in Ireland, flying is more often than not a necessity. Given the thousands it employs directly and indeed, far more indirectly, has he considered the effect on these people of his comments? It's really time that the aviation industry started being a lot more forthright in defending itself against the likes of the Independent and others, which attack it with increasing frequency.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=35&si=1660238&issue_id=14413

atse
27th Jul 2006, 07:19
It's really time that the aviation industry started being a lot more forthright in defending itself against the likes of the Independent and others

For this read: "It's really time everybody started to help Ryanair fight back against my former supporter the Independent which has slowly started to get more and more critical of my antics".

In the past the Irish Independent was a strong supporter of Ryanair. As with virtually all of those who get to know Ryanair, including supporters, there is a moment when the whiff of all not being entirely proper gets about. Funny enough, a very significant article in the Sunday Independent (same newspaper group) spelling out the consequences of the REPA case, untruthful executives, etc. is already on PPRuNe.

Here is the link: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234377&page=3 - See post number 46 - [I]Ryanair crash lands spectacularly in the High Court - that will perhaps go some way to explaining his remarks ......

the grim repa
27th Jul 2006, 08:29
Eventually the school bully will cry when "everybody starts picking on me".What does he expect our sympathy?

http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=2006072708282189

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/07/26/Navigation/177/208103/European+Ryanair+pilot+union+'a+step+closer'+after+Irish+cou rt+internet+forum+privacy.html

cessna l plate
27th Jul 2006, 10:15
At the risk of this thread becoming another "bash O'Leary" topic, I have to agree on this point. Whilst we might not all agree with his methods, and indeed most dont, there are two points to this.

First, what the hell (pardon the pun) has it got to do with the bishop of London that people go abroad for their holidays? The weather is better, you get ripped off less, and if you do at least those in the holiday resorts smile whilst they do it, and flying is the best method of getting there. Surely an aircraft creates less climate problems that an ocean liner, which one burns the most fuel to the med?? Just for the record, is this the same Bishop of London that used to work as a holiday rep years ago????????

Secondly, O'Leary. Yes, some of his practices are best described by those with a greater knowledge of them than I as dubious. But look at what he is paid to do. Make an airline make money. He does this, and very well. Let's be fair, you don't see BA or other legacy carriers queueing at Boeings door to buy new planes do you?? His airline makes money, pure and simple, he does what it takes to get the job done. I agree that the conditions as reported on here from time to time are less that good for the employees, but that's life outside that avaiation world as well. When you sign up, you know what youre doing, live with it or get out, it's what the rest of the world does!!

Windy Militant
27th Jul 2006, 11:32
Was I dreaming or did not the Catholic church put up the money to build a bl**dy great Airport in the back end of nowhere so that pilgrims could fly to the site of a Miracle that supposedly occured there. Does this mean that the pilgimage was all for nothing? I mean you fly out get blessed, absolved of all your sins, then you're damned as soon as you embark to fly home. Hmm :suspect: Might just explain all the cured folks falling down the steps on arrival :E

The SSK
27th Jul 2006, 12:00
Knock 'Ireland West' Airport.

Both Ryanair and Easyjet announced yesterday their discontinuation of London services - getting their own back on the Bishop, maybe?

(Christy Moore)
At the early age of thirty-eight, my mother said, Go west!
Get up, says she, And get a job! Says I, I'll do my best
I pulled on my wellingtons to march to Kiltimagh
But I took a wrong turn in Charlestown and I ended up in Knock

Once this quiet crossroads was a place of gentle prayer
Where Catholics got indulgent once or twice a year
You could buy a pair of rosary beads or get your candles blessed
If you had a guilty conscience you could get it off your chest

Then came the priest from Partry, Father Horan was his name
Ever since he's been appointed Knock has never been the same
Begod, says Jim, 'Tis eighty years since Mary was adout
'Tis time for another miracle, and he blew the candle out

From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock

And to establish terra firma he drew up a ten year plan
And he started running bingo around nineteen sixty-one
He built a fabulous basilica upon the Holy Ground
And once he had a focal point he started to expand

Chip shops and bed and breakfasts sprung up overnight
Once a place for quiet retreat, now it's a holy sight
All sorts of fancy restaurants for every race and creed
Where black and white and yellow pilgrims could get a mighty feed

We had the Blessed Virgin here, Father Horan did declare
And Foster and Allen, they appeared just over there
Now do you mean to tell me, says he in total shock
That I am not entitled to an auld airport here in Knock

The TDs were lobbied and harrassed with talk of promised votes
And people who'd been loyal for years spoke of changing coats
Excommunication was threatened upon the flock
Who said it was abortive building airports up in Knock

Now everyone is happy and the miracle it's complete
Father Horan's got his auld runway - and it's eighteen thousand feet
All sorts of planes could land there, of that there's little doubt
It'll be handy now for George Bush to knock Gadafi out

From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock

Now poor old Father Jim is gone to the airport in the sky
And down on Barr na Cuiga he keeps a friendly eye
On Ryanair and Aer Lingus as they fly to and fro
We'll never see his likes again on the planes of sweet Mayo

Did NATO donate the dough, my boys, did NATO donate the dough
Did NATO donate the dough, my boys, did NATO donate the dough

From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock


(Foster & Allen - popular Irish folk duo)
(TDs - Teachtarai Dail, Members of the Irish Parliament)

TDK mk2
27th Jul 2006, 12:28
I haven't actually read the bishops comments but regarding flying it's not a natural activity for us so it's unsurprising that someone from such a conservative outfit as the catholic church would speak against it.

In 100 years western culture has become permeated with easy access to commercial aviation and in the next 100 years the culture of countries like China and India will expect to do so as well. You have to wonder how much is too much for this planet and what the consequences of not heading the warnings of pretty much the whole of the scientific community about the threat of global warming. It's not just flying either, if the same levels of car usage as we enjoy in the west became prevailant in the above mentioned countries (and they're planning on it) where will we end up?

Of course few individuals will willingly sacrifice their lifestyle for the sake of the planet so it's really up to western governments to lead the way in slowing the growth of greenhouse gas emissions as soon as possible.

I say this all at the hight of hypocrasy as I too like many here drive various greenhouse gas producers around our road network and airways...

Norman Stanley Fletcher
27th Jul 2006, 12:43
I am both a committed Christian and a devoted airline pilot - I have never found the two to be incompatible. I am also one of those with profound reservations about the practices of Michael O'Leary in terms of the way he conducts his business. Nonetheless, it is also good to recognise when someone not normally associated with reasonable judgement is actually speaking the truth. Such is the case here. Mr O'Leary is quite right to speak out against the ignorance of people who are simply not qualified to make a rational decision on such a complex issue. Many senior church leaders seem to have increasing difficulty telling right from wrong on a whole range of issues - this is a prime example of it.

2 sheds
27th Jul 2006, 13:39
If flying is such a mortal sin, why do you see so many nuns in airport transit lounges?

Chesty Morgan
27th Jul 2006, 13:52
I suppose, for them, it's just a habit.:p

Windy Militant
27th Jul 2006, 13:56
I thought it was mandatory for every airliner to carry a guitar playing Nun! :}

rotated
27th Jul 2006, 14:12
Given the history of the Church regarding sodomy, rape, pillage, torture, abuse and nearly every other atrocity known to man, I could really give a flying fcuk what the "UK Bishop" or any other "God-fearing" entity has to say about practically anything... :yuk:

I'm still going up in 172P"ig" on Sunday given the chance; at least if I burn in hell for it I'll be in "good" company... :mad:

CWL2YOW
27th Jul 2006, 15:41
Today's Bible (aka the Da Vinci Code) has scenes containing men of the cloth flying across Europe in private jets AND using a cell phone on a plane when in flight. Maybe the Bishop of London should reach out to his superiors for guidance?

Lou Scannon
27th Jul 2006, 17:08
I trust that the Bishop's flock have already been banned from arriving at his sermon in anything that burns the devil's fuel, ie petrol. Nice to know that the Bish is finally on top of the Churches problems and has time to sort out us heathens.

Once again I have to agree with MOL (even if it embarrasses me)

Mercenary Pilot
27th Jul 2006, 18:03
I suppose, for them, it's just a habit.

Very good :D

http://www.tigersweat.com/images/air08.jpg

AcroChik
27th Jul 2006, 18:57
Is one of those guys O.J. Simpson?

HowlingWind
27th Jul 2006, 19:12
No, OJ was not in that flick.

Keygrip
27th Jul 2006, 19:37
Is one of those guys O.J. Simpson?
Yeah, he's the one on the right - with the guitar.

tilewood
27th Jul 2006, 19:44
At the risk of this thread becoming another "bash O'Leary" topic,


Perhaps it ought to be a 'bash the Bishop' topic!! But that's a whole new
thread!;)

I am getting rather fed up with clerics, be they C of E, muslim, jewish
or whatever, who feel that their supposed access to their imaginary friend
gives them the right to tell the rest of us what to do.

When they stop creating so much bigoted hot air themselves, and stop bombing the hell out of each other in the name of their own god, then they may be listened
to with something other than bemused contempt. :hmm:

LegsUpLucy
27th Jul 2006, 22:26
Well,does that mean the Arch-Angels should have thier wings clipped too,its only fair :p

rookie skypilot
28th Jul 2006, 01:35
Just have to laugh at the way the anti-Catholic and anti-religious bigots are so quick out of the closet!

Two small clarifications:

The Bishop of London is not a Catholic, but an Anglican.

You think religion has a bad record?
Look at the mess caused by irreligion (take Mao Tse Tung who is responsible for the deaths of 70 million of his own people).

Either way fly happy,
but think of others!

rotated
28th Jul 2006, 02:37
rookie skypilot,

First of all please acquaint yourself with the definition of bigot--perhaps Wikipedia's will do:

"A bigot (in modern usage) is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own."

Anyone who claims NOT to be prejudiced is full of it, our opinions are formed of personal experiences and will inevitably influence subsequent life actions. Your post proves it.

Tolerance is another matter.

My problem is with those who commit unspeakable acts in the name of "religion", then don frock and halo in an attempt to enrich the coffers, both literally and figuratively. Mao Tse Tung may have butchered his own race but he did it without justifying his actions on some kind of carte blanc license-to-kill intuition from God. He and the Pol Pots and Stalins and Husseins used their own balls, albeit for evil.

Those who set themselves above all others in the name of God are floating on thin air indeed, especially when their own lives generally do not stand up to close scrutiny. Not even Jesus Christ did it, whatever else he claimed, he walked this earth as a MAN and made no bones about it (pun not intended).

Neither I not any of the other posters on this little section of thread have claimed to be intolerant, it is YOU that have claimed so for yourself and all of us by your use of the loaded term "bigot".

Kindly refrain from doing so in the future.

And P feckin' S, my experience with the "Church" is PERSONAL, not historical; PM me for further discussion on how these great "saints" do their best to influence the youth so many blindly entrust to them.

Rant Over

lardcake
28th Jul 2006, 13:50
Flying? A sin? I'm so very glad we were told so that we can stop *immediately* :}

Keef
28th Jul 2006, 21:09
Eh? I flew on Tuesday and have every intention of doing so again in the extremely near future.

The Bishop of London is welcome to his opinions, and I'm sure won't object if some of us disagree.

Yes, there are far too many who call themselves Christians and try to impose their rules/opinions/whatever on other people. The founder of the faith didn't - he let people choose.

fmgc
29th Jul 2006, 09:52
Just have to laugh at the way the anti-Catholic and anti-religious bigots are so quick out of the closet!

Who is the bigot here?

A2QFI
29th Jul 2006, 15:22
I do not think that the Church of England is assisted in its mission, (assuming that it has one) by employing a Big Issue seller in smart robes as its Head!

Keef
30th Jul 2006, 18:10
I do not think that the Church of England is assisted in its mission, (assuming that it has one) by employing a Big Issue seller in smart robes as its Head!

Eh? I don't get that. But I've "not got it" before.

A2QFI
30th Jul 2006, 18:17
Keef. If you are a chaplain, I can't be sure, are you not familiar with the administrative head of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, as opposed to the Supreme Head of the Church, HM The Quuen? I am and in appearance and 'presence' he strikes me as an uninspiring leader

Davaar
30th Jul 2006, 18:23
Who is the bigot here?

Well then, Who? and Why?

cavortingcheetah
30th Jul 2006, 18:24
:hmm:

The clergy can flap around the heavens when they are dead.
As I don't believe in the jolly old afterlife any more than I believe in the multitude of salacious virgins; I'll do my cavorting whilst I am alive.:p

Davaar
30th Jul 2006, 18:38
Keef .... are you not familiar with the head of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury? I am

As I read you, "head of the Church of England" is in apposition to "the Archbishop of Canterbury". If that reading is correct, you are less familiar with the head than you claim.

P.S. This was in response to the pre-edited version of #28 above, to which material change was made in the editing.

cavortingcheetah
30th Jul 2006, 18:52
:hmm:

Act of Supremacy. 1534.

'The King (Queen) as the only supreme head on earth of the Church of England.'

:D

Davaar
30th Jul 2006, 19:01
Well cavorted, that cheetah.

A2QFI
30th Jul 2006, 19:01
It doesn't matter what you call the man! I think he is an uninspiring leader and anybody else is entitled to their opinion too!

cavortingcheetah
30th Jul 2006, 19:05
:E

Off with his head!:D

Davaar
30th Jul 2006, 19:08
It doesn't matter what you call the man! !

She's a woman, actually.

The man who provoked the latest theological discussion was not the Archbishop of Canterbury. Stick with it, though. Sooner or later you will get a fact right. Probably.

Keef
30th Jul 2006, 20:00
It's interesting that all those I know who've met Rowan Williams (quite a few) think he is one of the most inspiring and thoughtful, kind people they've met.

Some who don't know him at all slag him off. I suppose it comes from reading the newspaper and believing what the less competent journalists write.

As to the question "If you are a chaplain, I can't be sure, are you not familiar with the administrative head of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, as opposed to the Supreme Head of the Church, HM The Quuen?"

Yes, I am a chaplain. Yes, I know Rowan Williams, and I've heard of HM the Queen. Where does the bit about HMQ selling "The Big Issue" come into all this?

tony draper
30th Jul 2006, 23:24
Well its ok for the Archbishop of Canterbury to be a bit religious, but one admits to being a tad worried about that Chief Constable of Manchester though.
:rolleyes:

cavortingcheetah
31st Jul 2006, 09:17
:hmm:

Let us not muddy the waters too much here.:suspect:
The big issue in all this rhubarb about sinful flying is the church of england itself.
Mired in corrupt financial maladministration as it was not so long ago, bereft of any moral example, riven by sexual confusion and doctrinal dichotomies; the institution is a poor relation of that which prevailed in the faith of the English not so many years ago.
Rowan Williams may well be a man steeped in sanctity but he is no more a prosyletiseing popular figure than was his predecessor; nor does he seem capable of strong leadership. Not only does he preside over the schisms of the anglican faith, which may or may not be inevitable, but he does so in a manner which appears quite ineffective. Given the confusion in ecclesiastic circles; we may be assured that it will not be long before another Prince of thre Church steps forward to dictate to us poor peasants that flying, far from being sinful, places us closer to God.:p

Anyway, and indeed, of what business is it of O'Leasry's if an anglican pulls the bell rope? O'Leary's from the Irish bogs and so must be a Catholic.:p

tony draper
31st Jul 2006, 10:04
Where are Reginald FitzUrse, William de Tracey, Hugh de Morville and Richard le Breton when yer need em,..........again.
:rolleyes:

Davaar
31st Jul 2006, 11:49
If that is your tone, Dr draper, how about:

"This great and weighty cause, incomparable to any other that hath happened in any time, requires great deliberation, and solid and mature judgment to determin it; and therefore I wish all the Judges of England had heard it (being a case for all) to the end we altogether might have given our humble advice to your lordships herein.

"Here is represented unto your lordships certamen honoris, and as I may well say, illustris honoris, illustrious honour.

"I heard a great peer of this realm and a learned say, when he lived, there was no King in Christendom had such a subject as Oxford.

"He came in with the Conquerour Earl of Gwynes, shortly after the Conquest made Great Chamberlain of England, above five hundred years ago, by Henry the First the Conquerours son, brother to Rufus; by Mawd the Empress Earl of Oxford, confirmed and approved by Henry fitz empress, Henry the Second Alberico Comiti, so earl before.

"This great honour, this high and noble dignity hath continued ever since in the remarkable sirname of De Vere, by so many ages, descents and generations, as no other kingdom can produce such a peer in one and the self same name and title.

"I find in all this length of time but two attainders of this noble family, and those in tempestuous times, when the Government was unsetled, and the kingdom in competition.

"I have laboured to make a covenant with my self, that affection may not press upon judgment; for I suppose there is no man that hath any apprehension of gentry or nobleness, but his affection stands to the continuance of so noble a name and house, and would take hold of a twig or twine-thread to uphold it: and yet time hath his revolution, there must be a period and a term to all temporal things, finis rerum, an end of names and dignities, and whatsoever is terrene, and why not of De Vere?

"For where is Bohun? where's Mowbray? where's Mortimer, &c? Nay, which is more and most of all, where is Plantagenet? they are intombed in the urnes and sepulchres of mortality.

"And yet let the name and dignity of De Vere stand so long as it pleaseth God".

Re The Earldom of Oxford (1625) W. Jo. 96 at 101.

tony draper
31st Jul 2006, 15:57
Watch out for peeps with surnames begining De or Fitz, bad blood there.
:rolleyes:

ShotOne
10th Aug 2006, 14:38
Good for O'Leary. Never thought I'd be supporting him here but, unlike almost every other airline boss, he at least has the balls to stick up for our industry when it is attacked by some sanctimonious self-publicising pratt.

er340790
10th Aug 2006, 15:46
Of course flying is a sin.

The Church will never forgive PONTIUS PILOT.......

FLCH
10th Aug 2006, 16:25
Take the Bish up in a Cessna Cardinal I say....