Why is it so?

[The Pirate]

Having just retired from many years of airline flying (12 airlines to be exact) I have a question to throw at you all.

Why are so many ex-Ansett people so difficult to get on with? Why do they always have to do things "the Ansett way" If I had a dollar for every time I have heard them say "this is the way we used to do it at Ansett" I could have retired in even better shape.

In several airlines I have been involved with they have come in and just taken over holus bolus and changed everything to way it was done at Ansett. People skills went out the window, checks became horrendous, training was pushed back into the dark ages and everybody started walking about with long faces when before they had been smiling.

Now I could understand this if Ansett had the been the "Shining Light" of airline practice. I could also understand if it were just a few people or a few airlines were as I describe but it is around 80%, I would estimate.

But there are some wonderful people from the latter background who I have worked with. Really outstanding pilots and people; they think it was all in the way Ansett recruited and trained.

What do you think? (I am now going to return to my bunker and put my flak jacket and tin helmet on)

[Capt Claret]

Pirate

I've had the opposite experience.

All of the ex Ansett drivers I've flown with, post Sept 2001, have been easy to get along with and impressed me how quickly and professionally they adapted to a different operators procedures, whilst flying a type they had many, many hours on.

Only one caused me angst.

An SMS in early in the morning from a male pilot, "I think I love you", caused me to sit bolt upright and wonder! :eek: When I discovered that he was in a heightened state of awareness at the time of sending, I became less worried. More similar messages when he was in similar states of awareness taught me to turn the phone off overnight.

I believe he's terrorising people around Honkers now. :E

[Animalclub]

It happens on the ground too... not necessary with Ansett staff. Had a staff member, who wouldn't conform to company rules, say to me that if it wasn't done the Lufthansa way it wasn't correct and she would rather resign than do it our way.

I immediately gave her a pen and some paper!

[The Pirate]

Claret, you've obviously got the good ones and I have had the bad ones. Luck of the draw I suppose. But I have never had SMSs like yours (From another male that is ;)

...... but wait there was that night in Casablanca; naah, that was whispered in my ear not by SMS!

"Fly the Skull and Crossbones"

[Chimbu chuckles]

Clarry the ex AN drivers you fly with, and I flew with for a while at the same airline, were pre dispute.

I think there is a great difference between those individuals and those who were flung on to the market a few years ago.

Overall my experience is similar to pirate's...and so is the experience of all my mates scattered around the expat world. There will always be exceptions but the typical ex AN pilots have a great deal of difficulty adapting and leaving behind AN...in fact they seem to point blank refuse to.

I have flown with those too.

Or perhaps we just notice them more. Certainly those that cannot adapt, and there are LOTS, give Aussies collectively a bad rap overseas. Whether ex AN people want to admit it or not there IS a perception around the world of the typical ex Ansett pilot...and it is not a good perception.

[UNOME]

After retiring, you consider 12 years as "many years of airline flying".........:uhoh:

If you retired as a Capt, then the SOP of the various airlines you flew for would have been enforced by you as Capt. Therefore, whatever the F/Os said about how he did things in Ansett would become irrelevant.

I can see the Woomera (who I suspect is a Jetstar pilot) getting out the guns once this thread takes hold!!:sad:



No Woomera to my knowledge has any association with JetStar - except perhaps as a passenger! Not necessarily getting out the big gun. You should really read the thread before bursting forth into print.
(12 airlines to be exact)

Sunny Woomera

[Capn Bloggs]

I think the pirate said many years and 12 airlines, but I could be wrong...

CC,
"I think I love you"
That bloke must be one sick puppy to love you! :ok:

[Blue Sky Baron]

UNOME,
I respectfully suggest you re-read the opening post.
Thepirate said nothing about 12 years experience, but, experience with 12 airlines.:ok:
Maybe that may cause you to reflect upon the statements made on your post, and then maybe you might like to edit it.:rolleyes:
Regards,
BSB :}

[Capt Claret]

G'day Chuckles,
In my post above I was referring specifically to the Ansett drivers who lost their jobs when Ansett collapsed in '01. I can only speak from my experience, to a man, not one of them has carried on with "this is how we did it in Ansett". Perhaps as The Pirate says, I'm lucky.

As for the pre/post disputers. I don't try and keep up with who's who, except for one who trained me years ago on the Smurf Jet, who often left the flight deck to "give birth to an Ansett pilot". :E :}

UNOME
He didn't say 12 years. He said 12 airlines.
And, can I have a bet with you about Woomera being a jet* pilot? :oh:

[ANCaptain]

All I can say is .....long live Ansett :D

[ANCaptain]

dammmmm....it sounds like I'm living in the past......

[ANCaptain]

it sounds like I'm living in the past ....... oh I am...... :=

[Capt Claret]

Bloggs, you should have heard what he says about you! Both being ex AN an all. :oh:

[ANCaptain]

Hmmmm Pirate...... 12 airlines....sounds like u had trouble holding down a job !! Had you done it the way we did at Ansett, you may have had more luck !!
Ok b4 you all start on me ......
I'm JOKING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:E

[AnQrKa]

Gee, theres no agenda here is there.

There has always been and always will be an anti xxx airlines feeling from pilots of an existing airline when pilots turn up en masse from another airline with experience, such as those from Ansett.

Tell me Pirate, which airlines were you flying with when you felt threatened by ex ansett pilots?

Care to name them.

[The Pirate]

Good Point Chuckles; I believe there are many more of this type pre acre post the Ansett fall than before it (ie dispute related)

Unome: you say "enforced by you as Capt. " that is my point exactly. Where I come from you dont ENFORCE, you gentle coax and try a outflanking maneauver which will inevitibly get results while ENFORCING will not work in most cases.

In Ansett they talked about the Capt and his "dog" (F/O), there was a steep cockpit gradient, and the capt took over if anything went wrong. In my part of the world the F/O is ALWAYS a trainee capt and treated as such. Works much better believe me. And when the change of seat comes along it's soooooo much easier. But the myth of ENFORCING is still alive and well and perpetuated by the ex Ansett people. Not only in the air BTW but amongst ground staff as well.

Are there any engineers out there with anything to say on how they were dealt with by Ansett (and ex-Ansett) Crews?

But we are getting away from the subject on which I posted "WHY" are they like this. Why hasnt time taught them the error of their ways?

ANcaptain: glad to see there is at least one of you out there with a sense of humour:)

[The Pirate]

AnQrRa : I NEVER felt threatened! That is exactly the type of response I would expect from the people I am talking about. I just found them very difficult to train and when it was thier turn to train they always harked back to the "Old Days at Ansett" and despite much coaxing and outflanking continued to do so. One almost had to ENFORCE the rules.:)

WHY?

And no I am not going to name the airlines as I dont want individuals envolved. (See what a good boy I am Woomera?) It would be too easy to spot them. Sorry. But the they were in the Far and Middle Easts and in Europe as well.

Capt Jack Sparrow

[UNOME]

Bloggs et al; Methinks Capt Jack Sparrow did wield a quick edit with his surly quill......aaarrrgg me hearties!:}

If not, I stand most humbly corrected and walk ye plank.:ok:

Capt Claret; If "one" of the Woomerii is not a Jetstar pilot then may "Davey Jones' locker be me end!!"

AAArrrgggg.........:E

Capt Jack (aka The Pirate) If your F/Os or trainees were not following SOPs, it then becomes a safety issue and the time for gently coaxing has passed. An enforcement by me would generally contain the following suggestion; "The company you now work for pays you to do your job this way, please do so or take it up with the Chief Pilot. Now whose shout is it?? " :)

BTW I think I've heard more complaints about ex-B1900 pilots (in a newish airline) believing they should be A330 Checkies, than poor old AN drivers. :ok:

[The Pirate]

Ye betterrr start walkin' Unome......... or come out and say what you mean 'cause I have no idea what you'r talking about:bored:

Capt Jack Sparrow

[The Pirate]

Unome, that is not what I thought you meant when you said enforcement. The way you just mentioned is not a bad way. But maybe a discussion should ensue as to WHY he/she IS doing it their way and not the company's so you all better understand the reasons. That way we can all learn.

And just to make it quite clear there were very few breaches of SOPS when I was in training mode. Even then they were most likely to be mine:\

Just had a thought:- have I pinched someone's name signing myself after Capt Jack? Please let me know if I have and I shall cease and desist.

[ozyozyozy]

An obviously stupid post from a small minded individual - how bout we generalise about every QF pilot based on the arrogance of one 747 crew I dealt with one day - quote 'you will address the F.E not myself, I wear four bars for a reason you know'.

I bet you tick a mental box in your head every time someone has had previous employment with AN and you judge them straight away - perhaps you have missed out on a different angle on doing something becase they too have other operator experience (something you obviously pride yourself on) but it sounds like you know everything their is too know (that isnt your line about the four bars is it?)

Lose the chip I say

Thats your input from an engineer ex AN, NJS, Gen Aviation and QF.

P.S Back at Ansett we were warned about people like you!!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Most other bulletin boards on the 'net don't allow edits: as they say on the Adobe BB: "you can't change history"!.

I reckon any edits should be a separate post.

CC:
except for one who trained me years ago on the Smurf Jet
Tried to train you...:} :} :} :} :{ :{ :{ :{

[Capt Claret]

Bloggsie,

You mean I don't have to credit you with everything I know any more? :O

[ANCaptain]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh it's all becoming clearer now .... Bloggs trained Claret....... that explains everything !! :cool:

[The Pirate]

As for the comment from ozyozyozy:-

The defence rests! In fact its gotta be wind up A?

BTW ozyozyozy my facts are based on observation and practical experience of many people over many years ............ and I have learnt not to pre- judge ....... by bitter experience.........

Capt Jack Sparrow

[Wizofoz]

Well, I'm on my third post AN job.

The first was almost 100% ex AN and a start-up with no established procedures. Yet there was still a general willingness from MOST of the AN guys to adapt to the different environment (and it doesn't get much more dirrerent than Japan!!) and "Do it their way". I do remember a couple of "Full frank and open" discussions to try and get some points over to some individuals (E.G- Approach bans-
Instructor:- It is not permissable to commence an approach if conditions are reported as below minima.
Bloggs:- Yeah, but you can go and take a look can't you??
Instructor:- Let me repeat.......)




The second was also a relitivley new operation in the UK, also with a high pecentage of AN guys (in fact their training manager is now ex AN). No question of "Did it this way at AN". This was Europe, and traffic/weather/ATC/procedures meant you learnt THEIR way very quickley.(I'll 'fess up to one instance. I demonstrated an A/P off, A/T on landing to a newby onto a 1600M runway in Greece- Bloody A/T didn't go into RETARD as it should and led to a tense couple of seconds!!)

Now with a large(orange) UK LOCO. There are pre '89, post '01 and never were either Aussies and KIWIs here. We follow the companies (very well thought out) SOPs, get on with the job and are (if the representaion in traning and other management positions is an indication) well thought of as a group.

If anything, I shake my head at some of the "Way we used to do it" stuff. Rock up to Kalgoolie with a 1500' cloud base, one runway and no alternate? NUTS!! ( I remember MR telling me how, if a lightie gear-upped in front of me, some un-named person would come and bulldose the wreck off the runway before I ran out of fuel...yeah right!!) Do an approach to a Cat1 Minima when you KNOW there's 100m vis to "Take a look"? That would get you a quick trip out the front door with no license and a big, red boot mark on your A$$$ just about any where else in the world.

The "Way we did it at Ansett" worked quite well in Aussie condition under Aussie rules.

If the training made good pilots out of us, it did so by giving us good background skills, and the ability and willingness to LEARN!

[fistfokker]

It really does come down to the individual, doesn't it. I do recall from years ago that a number of places around the world had a large influx of Aussie pilots, some of whom didn't fit in well, for many reasons, one of which was, "this isn't how we did it back at XXX". Eventually most fitted in with time.

I don't think it is productive to bag anyone unfortunate enough to have lost there career as a result of company collapse, just because they were part of that company. It can take a long time just to get over that.

[Ralph the Bong]

Hi Wiz,

My 4th.

Captain Jack, perhaps the ex AN people were mearly being conversational is relating the SOPs of a company that was dear to their hearts? It may not have been the critisism of their existing employer as you have supposed. My experience has found that most SOPs are pretty similar wherever you go; practicality being the mother of invention.

The real difference, I have found, is in cultural differences, where the ex-AN have a different approach to situation, such as WX avoidance. What one perceives as 'safe' depends on you aviation pedigree, I have no doubts! The term for FOs, "dogs" that you speak of came from AN WA and was not in use in the rest of the AN network. Apparently the term came from the MMA days, wher the captains were simpley legends and the FOs just dogs hit.

A while ago, I was talking to someone in the industry who didnt know I was ex -AN and said something along the lines of ".. those AN guys are all a bunch of smart @$$s". I recon some ex AN guys have actualy pulled poeple into line with some common sense when some stupid cokpit suggestions have been made and that is the reason for the sour grapes.

The only time that I have said anything along the lines of "That's what we used to do at Ansett " in a way that disparaged the proceedures was in the context of...

" The green returns on the radar contain turbulence and we should go around them" (That's what we did at Ansett).

"Sure, put on an extra 8 tons of fuel, but we are going to burn 2 to carry it so it is really only 6. Why dont you add 10?" (That's what we did at Ansett).

"Because of the windshear, how about we use TOGA and a lower flap setting. Taking off with a headwind would help too" (TWWDAAn)..

Get the picture??

[The Pirate]

It all depends on ones perspecive I suppose. I am looking from the outside in and you are looking from the inside out (of ex AN) The two sides will never agree.

But how do I reply to people from all over the world who say "Why are they so different?"

My original post asked why is it so and no one has answered this so I am deserting this post and going back aboard the "Black Pearl" for another cruise....... Haul up the Skull and Crossbones.......

Capt Jack Sparrow.

[3 Holer]

"Sure, put on an extra 8 tons of fuel, but we are going to burn 2 to carry it so it is really only 6. Why dont you add 10?" (That's what we did at Ansett).


With a fuel policy like that, no wonder Ansett went out of business.:ugh:

[gas-chamber]

It has been my pleasure to train (or retrain if you like) many ex-Ansett pilots, and generally I can say that they all responded very well to new ways and new ideas. Particularly when it was pointed out to them that the people who built the airplane wrote in their manuals that it was so. And probably because they knew they would fail the final check if they didn't see the light. I can't remember any of them being unprofessional, and most (not all) were also gentlemen.
But it has also been my pain to have been checked by some ex-Ansett pilots who never got re-educated before they got into the check role. These characters were in some cases totally out of control. Wacko ideas, rigid attitudes and anal to the extreme. Blame it on the culture they came from. They had been beaten into doing it a certain way when they were F/O's or being upgraded, and they were going to damn well pass on all the furphies as well as insist that all pilots under check or training knew all the trivia no matter how irrelevant.
Those ex-Ansett pilots who have had exposure to other Airlines since (the more the better) should be an asset - those coming straight from that culture are, imho, a potential liability if put in any position of power.

[The Pirate]

At last a glimmer of light:-

"Blame it on the culture they came from. They had been beaten into doing it a certain way when they were F/O's or being upgraded, and they were going to damn well pass on all the furphies as well as insist that all pilots under check or training knew all the trivia no matter how irrelevant."

Thank you Gas-Chamber

PS. I dont think I accused anyone of unprofessionalism. None of them were that.

Capt Jack Sparrow.

[tinpis]

I found all the ex PNG and ex Kiwi cropdusting guys were tops in AN.

Dunno about the rest avoided 'em :hmm:

[Bolty McBolt]

After 2001 a term came into QFs engineering Vocab..

E A C
The firt two letters of the acronym stand for Ex Ansett you get to guess what the last letter stands for.

I hate to tar a group with one brush ( I am talking pilots and engineers alike) but the name stuck like the preverbial to a blanket.

Perhaps this is why the "PIRATE" started this thread..

PS Don't shoot the messenger