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Rollingthunder
25th Jul 2006, 05:39
Do yourself a favour. These weren't/aren't called One Armed Bandits for no reason.

If you want gamble, try Texas Hold-em or Blackjack and learn how to play.

green granite
25th Jul 2006, 07:32
In uk casinos the gaming m/c pay out % is fixed by law to a min of 82% and is checked by the gaming board frequently. yes you can win, talk to the regular punters and you will find they do, they will sit in the cassino and watch their favorite m/c and wait untill 3 or 4000 (2500 jackpot m/c) has gone in then they will play that m/c, they will happily put 2000 into that m/c to get 2500 out, they rarely loose over a long period.

Howard Hughes
25th Jul 2006, 07:56
they rarely loose over a long period. Yeh right.:hmm:

The only casino game where you have a fifty/fifty chance of winning if played correctly is Black Jack. Of course more often than not someone on the table doesn't know how to play properly, this tips the balance in the houses favour.

Everything else in a casino is stacked towards the house, think about it, if machines are set up to pay only 82%, over a long period of time you can only expect to get back 82%. Also at the casinos I have worked in each machine is not a stand alone unit, the payouts are paid over all machines, just because someone has put in 3 grand doesn't mean it is going to be paid out of that machine...:ugh: This is why the men in black suits empty the machines every morning!!:ok:

Gotta say though Texas Holdem is great fun, sure beats the crap stud poker I used to deal.:ok:

vapilot2004
25th Jul 2006, 08:09
While most casinos by law in civilised countries have to maintain a certain payout percentage, the way it is done is casino-wide. The RNG in each machine (RNG = Random Number Generator) decides the who and when on payoffs. There are a few good books on the workings of this.

I have often read (and heard) that your best odds, if you are good at it, is to play others in the game of poker. No house control here - you are playing against other people - hopefully (and this is where the good at it comes in) less skillful than you !

I have done some fair amount of research, both theoretical and practical on the subject :}

Howard Hughes
25th Jul 2006, 08:21
Unfortunately in poker the house still takes a percentage, but you are right you do have more chance of winning as you are playing other individuals, if you can find drunk ones you will do even better!!:ok:

Howards rule for gambling: Drink or gamble, never both at the same time!:}

ORAC
25th Jul 2006, 08:38
The only gamblin´ one has done was in the Officers Mess on Bridge. A gentlemens game, also played by some foreigners. (I seem to recall Omar Sharif was a dab hand.)

Poker was left to the Sergeants Mess and ORs..... :=

Anyone play Precision Club?

ExSimGuy
25th Jul 2006, 10:44
Ever wondered why serious gaming machines have the "coin out" chute as close as possible to the "coin in" slot?

You've got it! As the winnings come out, they go straight back in again. So your return is 82% of 82% (=67%) by 82% (=55%) by 82% (=45%) by 82% (=37%) . . . get the idea?

The only way I will play a "slot" (usually a pub "AWP") is to take a few bob out of my pockets, say goodbye fondly to it, and accept that I'm paying that money out for a bit of fun. (and it has to be a pretty boring pub before I'll resort that anyway)

Okay, a few times I have fed in a few 10p coins and dropped the jackpot (and immediately walked away with it!) but usually the odds rule.

Guys in the gaming industry ain't in it for their health!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
25th Jul 2006, 13:26
I'm paying that money out for a bit of funcan you explaint that bit? Where does the 'fun' bit start?

ExSimGuy
25th Jul 2006, 13:56
Like a fairground ride, or maybe bingo (you don't expect to win at bingo, do you?)

BALIX
25th Jul 2006, 16:28
Anyone else getting pissed off with the way this country is semmingly turning into one big bookmakers? The biggest, smartest shops in my local small town high street are two big bookies. They are busy places, too, even on hot days. Meanwhile, just about every sporting event on Sky is sponsored by an online bookmakers. Newspapers are full of ads for the same people. Even at work there is a slot machine that is rarely left idle. Funny how everyone who plays it breaks even but the work recreation society makes a bloody fortune...

And now Mr Prescott wants his mate Mr Anzsuch (sp?) to run a load of super casinos. Fanbloodytastic :yuk:

I once went into a betting shop with a fiver. I came out without a fiver. I deduced then that betting is a mugs game :ugh:

Parapunter
25th Jul 2006, 16:57
'You don't see Shergar in Ladbrokes, fluttering on Sebastian Coe do you boy?'

As my old man once put it. That was all I needed to know about betting. Hmm, you may well have seen Shergar when you were making Airfix models though...:bored:

Wino
25th Jul 2006, 17:34
Okay, as a more or less professional poker/blackjack player who makes more money playing cards than pushing large jets around the sky I got a few corrections to make to this thread.

from green granite
they will sit in the cassino and watch their favorite m/c and wait untill 3 or 4000 (2500 jackpot m/c) has gone in then they will play that m/c, they will happily put 2000 into that m/c to get 2500 out, they rarely loose over a long period.


BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT. Repeat after me BULLSHIT. Want proof? There are no "professional" slot players in the world that derive their sole source of income from slot machine (same thing goes for roulette and craps btw)

Each pull of the lever on the slot machine is an indendant trial. It has no memory of what happened before. The pay outs are fixed by setting the odds (number of winning combinations vs losing combinations) no other way. Over the long term the machine will pay out withing a few decimal points of those odss. BUt the ONLY person participating on the good side of the long term is the owner of the machine. No matter what you the patron do, you are always working against that. So every dollar you put into the machine is instantly turned into 80 cents or so REGARDLESS of your short term result.

Look at it this way. Take a fair coin and flip it. if it comes up heads, what are the odds it will be heads next flip? EXACTLY 50 50. It has no memory of what happened previously. There is NO WAY TO WIN AT SLOTS over the long term.


Howard Hughes.

Not quite 50 50 and black jack can vary widely from that according to the house rules. Hitting a soft 17 increases the house percentage dramatically, as do limits on spits and doubles, and denying "Surrender"... Then you have to play according to "basic strategy" which a google of will give you many good refrerances and a few bad ones.

Then if you REALLY want to learn how to play. Learn to count cards. quite simple actually. The problem is that the computers and cameras allow the casino to pick you off very quickly these days which is why I moved on to poker.



Poker is a VERY interesting subject for me that I could devote several threads to.



Cheers
Wino

CWL2YOW
25th Jul 2006, 17:51
I read this on CNN a few days ago - very interesting and provides an insight into the US (and future UK?) casino industry and the use of technology to link machines / casinos together.

Here's the link > http://us.cnn.com/2006/TECH/07/13/popsci.gambling/index.html

green granite
25th Jul 2006, 18:37
Wino

That is a total load of bolo**ks Every UK fruit m/c is micro processor controlled, and contains non-volatile memory which records every game, coin input/output, button pushes etc, the % p/o is easily adjusted via either dip switches or a plug in p/o % key. the manufacturers can, by plugging a laptop into any m/c down load all games info to it and take it away for analysis, this is the way they find out how some people are fiddling them. At any time with the m/c door open and in the test routine one can check the p/o % just by entering the relevant test No. And before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about I've worked in the technical side of the m/c business for the last 20 years

AcroChik
25th Jul 2006, 19:50
I don't think it's merely coincidence that some of the world's best financial markets traders are also successful poker players. While I don't play any card games, I'm familiar with a couple statistical studies of probability distribution in poker play that were given to me by traders (these need closer reading than I've given them).

Where the similarity is most immediately obvious between these two games is that 90% of financial markets traders are long-term losers and very nearly the same percentage of poker players are also long-term losers. Most gamblers do not keep close accounting of the capital they deploy in games of chance. Financial markets are closely regulated so reliable data is available.

What I'm beginning to learn is that "winning" is most closely associated with managing your downside, knowing when to fold a hand or sell a losing position. The flip side of this is letting your probable gains ride. This is harder to do in practice than it is to describe.

Human nature seems to dictate that when loss becomes probable we "average down" on a position or add or to our bet hoping that an increase in price ~ or turn of luck ~ will restore us to our original or greater wealth.

Further, when we've achieved profit on a single position we are driven to cash it out to consolidate an immediate gain as opposed to letting that speculation remain in play (there's no direct analogy for this in card play, I think, as the rules of poker dictate a finite end to each round of play).

One of the greatest traders in history, Ed Seycota, repeated this maxim constantly: "Everyone gets what they want out of the market." Not everyone is trying to win. Some are driven to play by the need for anxiety fuelled by potential and actual loss. One imagines this is why Gamblers Anonnymous exists.

con-pilot
25th Jul 2006, 20:20
For you who are familiar with Las Vegas of the late 60s and early 70s you will know the name of Benny Binion, the owner of Horse Shoe Casino in Downtown Las Vegas.

He told me once that is it was to him he would only have slot machines in his casino. The highest payoffs for the house is;

1. Slots

2. Blackjack (and any other card games that plays against the house)

3. Roulette

4. Craps (while there are some really big winners in craps, most just lose money)

5. Poker (poker is usually there as a courtesy for gamblers, the house only takes a small cut from the pot to cover expenses, no real profit is derived from poker tables by the house)

Now this may have changed as he told me this many years ago and he has long since passed away.

My game is Roulette, and believe it or not I nearly aways win, however, I do just play the numbers, not red or black or any of the side odd bets.

djk
25th Jul 2006, 22:21
Anyone else getting pissed off with the way this country is semmingly turning into one big bookmakers? The biggest, smartest shops in my local small town high street are two big bookies. They are busy places, too, even on hot days. Meanwhile, just about every sporting event on Sky is sponsored by an online bookmakers. Newspapers are full of ads for the same people. Even at work there is a slot machine that is rarely left idle. Funny how everyone who plays it breaks even but the work recreation society makes a bloody fortune...
And now Mr Prescott wants his mate Mr Anzsuch (sp?) to run a load of super casinos. Fanbloodytastic :yuk:
I once went into a betting shop with a fiver. I came out without a fiver. I deduced then that betting is a mugs game :ugh:

Balix,

Here in Minnesota we have 17 casinos. The governor of Minnesota wanted to build a State funded casino. However nobody wanted it built near where they live.
I personally get bored to tears everytime my wife's mum's friend comes over talking about her trips to the casino. She'll claim she's won $100, but quickly avoids the question of how much she had to pay out to win that amount and how much it cost her in petrol to travel the 400 miles to the casino and back

AcroChik
25th Jul 2006, 22:35
What I'd be interested in learning about in casino gambling is the cost of funds to the players. What I mean by this is, what does it cost the players to finance their play?

Casinos make every effort to not let their marks run out of money. Thus, one can finance play on a credit card. I would wager that the smaller the stakes being played and the better advantage held by the house, the higher the rate of credit card interest the player pays. Cost of funds would have to be subtracted from any winnings or added to any losses.

Thus, if I charge $1,000.00 to my 20% credit card to finance slot machine play, win $100.00, but then divert my borrowed stake and winnings into another pastime ~ let's say meals, drinks and entertainment at the casino ~ rather than immediately paying off my debt, I may well end up with a net loss.

I'm feeling like I haven't described the scenario very well, but I hope you see my point.

>>> Added: Anecdotally, there's the case of a Pennsylvania university student ~ the son of a minister (no kidding) ~ who lost heavily in on-line poker play. To cover his losses, he robbed a rural bank. He's now awaiting trial. The New York Times Sunday Magazine did a feature article about him and on-line gambling.

Howard Hughes
25th Jul 2006, 22:55
There is one notable admission from your list Con-pilot, the money wheel (known in the industry as the mugs wheel), it is generally the first thing you see once you have walked past the slots into the gaming area, it also has the highest house take (in Oz anyway).

Wino, house rules in Australia are fairly uniform throughout the country, even though casinos are administered by the states. This makes Blackjack the game where the house take is least, although given its popularity amongst punters, it is the second highest money earner for the house after slots. If you are looking for a game that involves tossing a coin, you'll need to look no further than Australia's own 'Two-up', sadly though it is becoming less available throughout the country, simply because the casino doesn't make enough from it, as a result they are slowly being phased out!:=

Of course gambling is a mugs game and you should only bet what you are willing to lose. Now don't get me started on the lotto...;)

TVIR40
25th Jul 2006, 23:04
I don't gamble anymore. I've NEVER won, even on slot machines. But one of my friends will win on the horses, casinos, slot machines, anything he touches! The money just throws itself at him. it never happens to me!:{

Wino
26th Jul 2006, 05:21
Green Granite.

Close but no cigar. Those dip switches simply alter the ratio of winning/non winning slots that are put through the Random Number generator. They will then produce results that are plotted. The results are recorded and plotted by the non volitile memory that you describe. That verifies the result. While you are correct that the results are recorded, they are not RELATED which is a completely different thing

But each result is an independant trial.

You can prove me wrong by producing even 1 professional slot player. I can show you thousands of poker and hundreds of blackjack players...


CHeers
Wino

PS. A further comment on blackjack. Contrary to popular belief, what the person does on third base has NO bearing your results. You only have to play basic strategy (and add in counting if you are capable). The play of other people at the table has no bearing on your results. The exception to that is if they DISTRACT you and cause you to make mistakes by which you deviate from basic strategy.

djk
26th Jul 2006, 13:23
What I don't understand is how a slot machine tournament works. They seem to be quite popular around here

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
26th Jul 2006, 13:29
Take a fair coin and flip it. if it comes up heads, what are the odds it will be heads next flip? EXACTLY 50 50....so it wil definately be tails then :confused:



he [Benny Binion] has long since passed away.I thought he was murdered...and then they caught some guy digging up his horde of silver in the desert somewhere aroung Vegas.

green granite
26th Jul 2006, 14:55
Wino: things are very heavily regulated in the UK we have a government body called the gaming board who have a lot of power and will where needed to get their way, they descend unanounced on casinos and will do a complete audit on each fruit m/c and check the % of each one from the collection figures i,e cash out / cash in * 100 = p/out %. The % is easily controlled by increasing things such as hold frequency and the wins in features area . to see the regulars playing go to any casino outside london in the UK and just sit and watch them and get talking to them. (bare in mind that UK casinos in small towns only have perhaps 10 or 15 m/cs)

AcroChik
26th Jul 2006, 15:06
"Take a fair coin and flip it. if it comes up heads, what are the odds it will be heads next flip? EXACTLY 50 50."

While this is, of course, theoretically precise, the problem with this in practice is that it's reasonably probable that the next flip will also come up heads, and then the next, and the next, and the next, ad infinitum. Of course, as one flips a fair coin more and more times, the probability of another flip coming up heads is reduced. After about 10,000 flips the probabilty of the HISTORICAL sequence being 50% heads/50% tails would be about 100%.

From one point of view, I believe, in determining odds of an outcome ~ in predicting direction in share prices, let's say ~ it's not necessarily each individual trial that matters, even in a fair coin toss, but the probable result of the next flip in a sequence of flips, in order to measure overall experience, creating a probability distribution that offers a reasonable view of future experience.

As soon as time enters the problem, things look a little different. However, it's my understanding from what I have read here that this does not apply to slot machines, in which each game is a discrete fair trial (please correct me if I've misunderstood ~ I haven't a clue about how gaming machines are programmed).

Another fair trial model could be: if one had 10,000 fair coins and flipped them all simultaneously, pure rationality says the resulting distribution of heads and tails ought to be 50/50. The problem is, of course, that the odds of 10,000 simultaneously flipped coins coming up with a precisely equal 50/50 distribution is remote.

Probability is a subtle thing, and from here we veer sharply into Monte Carlo distributions and Brownian motion. Stuff quite challenging to explore in an internet forum thread.

>>I've edited this post seven times and still feel I've expressed myself poorly.<<

con-pilot
26th Jul 2006, 17:37
I thought he was murdered...and then they caught some guy digging up his horde of silver in the desert somewhere aroung Vegas.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! That was his son who was murdered.

Wino
26th Jul 2006, 21:06
Green Granite,

Yes the UK is heavily regulated... Do you believe that Nevada or Atlantic city New jersey are any less so?

Cheers
Wino