1940s. 2-SAS jump instructors were RAF?

[blue up]

Sorry to dump this request on you guys but a long hunt through the internet has merely brought me into contact with the kind of Walter Mitty weirdos that Jet-Blast wouldn't touch!

I've been trying to work out the military history of my grandfather who had always told my grandmother that he had been a good boy and stayed at home. Years after they had passed away we've found out that he was the first Welshman to liberate France as one of the Pathfinders of the 22nd Independent Parachute Company at 00:20 on D-Day. This info led us to some photographs of him with a chap called Sgt Len Harvey who is photographed with some of his group with the title 2-SAS on the back with a list of locations in France.

Now the questions are " why was an RAF sergeant instructing SAS who were wearing Para berets" and "why would a Tank radio operator (Tank Corps from 1936 to 1943 and listed as Army Air Corps after) end up going into France several times BEFORE D-Day"

If anyone knows of a reliable source of info regarding Parachute training, AAC and special ops then I'd be eternally grateful. Any links to ex 2-SAS members would also be helpful. I've got a few photos that would be of interest to SAS, D-Day and 38 Group/295 Sqdn enthusiasts.

Thanks for letting me use a little corner of your bandwidth. I wouldn't normally post here but you are my best bet for good gen.:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Check yr PMs

One possibility is that he joined Stirling's organisation in the Western Desert, while serving in an armoured unit. Huge numbers of armoured units were in North Africa at that time.

SAS wore red berets at that time. The fetching beige number came in post-War.

As ORAC has posted below, 2 SAS served widely in France and elsewhere in Europe from late 43.

[ORAC]

Ops List (http://www.specialoperations.com/Operations/opslist.html) including 2 SAS special ops in France. Code names may help.

Background (http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Zia7i4lUklMJ:www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter98_99/art03.html+tank+radio+operator+sas+france&hl=en&lr=&strip=0). Sorry about the highlighting, but I can't trace the original.

[SASless]

Blue,

After reading your post I spent some time playing on Google....it would seem your Gramps ran around with some very interesting people for someone who "was quiet and stayed home"! This reminds us of why Brokaw called them "The Greatest Generation". Keep us posted on the progress of your research, it will be interesting to see what you surface about his activities during the war.

[blue up]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/scan0002.jpg

Here is the 2 SAS photo. More on the same photobucket website, including the back of the photo with the names of places in France "visited".



http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/Pic_IndCoy.jpg

This one shows my grandfather in the centre with the sergeants' arm over his shoulder. That is Sgt Leverret. Stoughton, Ken Norton and and Ed Delaney O'Sullivan are also there with Capt Bob Midwood taking the briefing. There are many variations of this "presumably posed" shot.

[allyn]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/scan0002.jpg
Here is the 2 SAS photo. More on the same photobucket website, including the back of the photo with the names of places in France "visited".
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/Pic_IndCoy.jpg
This one shows my grandfather in the centre with the sergeants' arm over his shoulder. That is Sgt Leverret. Stoughton, Ken Norton and and Ed Delaney O'Sullivan are also there with Capt Bob Midwood taking the briefing. There are many variations of this "presumably posed" shot.

You might try asking here:

http://www.arrse.co.uk

[GeeRam]

Now the questions are " why was an RAF sergeant instructing SAS who were wearing Para berets"

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/scan0002.jpg


Interesting photo.

Not sure why this photo would be marked 2 SAS..? Could be a det from 22 IPC was required to assist 2 SAS..?
Or this was a pre attachment refresher para course at Ringway, (where all WW2 jump instruction was done) hence the RAF instructor, as it likely that they were all already para qualified.
It's an unusal photo as you rarely see a posed group photo in jump kit after initial training, and you can clearly see the light blue 'Parachute Regiment' shoulder titles and the standard army para wings (not the different SAS wings) already on the right hand sleeve of the BD blouse of at least one man. It's also odd that they are wearing the sleeveless diagonal zipped jump oversmock worn over BD rather than worn over the Denison smock, not seen that before...?

and "why would a Tank radio operator (Tank Corps from 1936 to 1943 and listed as Army Air Corps after) end up going into France several times BEFORE D-Day"
:

Not unusual, all those in the Parachute Regt. were volunteers from existing Army Regts.

As for 2nd SAS ops in France in 1944, Operation Wallace was led by the legendary Roy Farran, and he was 7th Armoured, and sadly only recently passed away last month aged 85.

[ExALM]

You might want to try contacting the SF/ SOE Club in London.

[November4]

Not sure if this helps but Lt Bob Midwood is shown here (http://www.theirpast-yourfuture.org.uk/upload/pdf/RESOURCE_I_The_Airborne_landings_19_APR_06_20060619175035.pd f) It is a PDF file though so may take a while to download.
Four 'stick' commanders of 22nd Independent Parachute Company, British 6th Airborne Division, synchronising their watches in front of an Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle of No 38 Group, Royal Air Force, at about 11 pm on 5 June, just prior to take off from RAF Harwell, Oxfordshire. This pathfinder unit parachuted into Normandy in advance of the rest of the division in order to mark out the landing zones, and these officers, (left to right, - Lieutenants, Bobby de la Tour, Don Wells, John Vischer and Bob Midwood), were among the first Allied troops to land in France.

[blue up]

Thanks, guys.

My father met Bob Midwood once many years ago at a 22nd IPC reunion and also conversed with John Vischer by post, in the days before e-mail. At the time he didn't know the questions that he should have been asking and one by one they all passed away, taking their stories to the grave with them. We have one possible contact in Toronto, Canada who knew my grandfather quite well but his last contact was in about 1993. We've done a mail shot of all the addresses in Toronto listed with the same surname in the hope that we might find him or a descendant. Fingers crossed!!

Operations Hardy, Wallace and Pistol have the right possible dates and locations to match the ones printed on the back of the photo. (called scan0001)at.....
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/

[airborne_artist]

Obituary of Lt Col Otway, whose battalion captured the gun emplacements at Merville - in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/25/db2501.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_25072006)

[blue up]

Very sobering to read the detailed versions of stories such as these. Makes me feel very small that I have never had to make such a sacrifice.

Spoke last week with William Lewis, the son of Arthur Platt who was captured along with Thomas Billington on the morning of June 6th. They were dissarmed, tied up by the side of a ditch and shot in the head by members of the Wehrmacht. Standard treatment for Paras under German wartime "rules". William never saw his father. The remains of the 2 men were scattered but after the war a memorial stone was errected near Ranville where they landed. In the Cementary at Ranville lay nearly half of the members of my grandfathers unit, including his close pal Ed Delaney O'Sullivan.

[blue up]

Many thanks to all of you who posted and sent PMs. Through your help I spoke last night with the man who was sat 2 seats away from my Grandfather in a 295 Sqdn Albermarle when he dropped on D-Day with their Eureka/rebecca radio sets! 85 years old and still has a full set of marbles and a near perfect memory of the 2 years he spent alongside my Grandfather. He's going to post me a list of the names of the other guys in my photos.

He also remembered the words of one of the songs my grandfather sung (well, we are Welsh) as a marching tune. Nice thing to have. Quite an emotional moment.

....and I haven't tried all of the avenues that you've suggested, yet.


All made possible by you lot.

Thanks!:ok: :ok: :ok: