Double Winged Brevets for RAAF Non-Pilots.........

[Whizzwheel]

Is it just me, or am I right to be piss@d as hell about people who haven't done WINGS test wearing WINGS (note plural)?? And what of the 70-80 odd years of blood, sweat and history behind the flippantly-discarded Nav (etc) Brevet? The bucket of sh%t is starting to fill...:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Fox3snapshot]

What has brought this on?? Is there new category recognition brevet being awarded for no apparent reason :confused:

[Admin_Guru]

Royal Navy aircrewmen have a pair of wings, and anything USA associated with airborne forces has the same. You dont need the sticks to be a member of the master race:}

[Occasional Aviator]

And pity the non-pilot members of the RAF, who have had the history of their individual brevets thrown out without getting a second wing, as most forces around the world give most aircrew branches - I actually don't mind what badge non-pilots wear; I have a sneaking suspicion that those pilots in the (increasingly few) forces that begrudge this are a little scared they might not hold their own against the more able Navs, AEOs etc.

Remember badges are only symbols, the substance is in the person.

[airborne_artist]

Do these annoy you?

http://www.stewart-aviation.co.uk/images/172.JPG

[Occasional Aviator]

Nice One AA!

[Tombstone]

Do these annoy you?

http://www.stewart-aviation.co.uk/images/172.JPG
Nah,

they're easy to get, you don't even need to be able to land the a/c to get those! ;)

Although I do admit that jumping out of the back of one with a bergen, Gimpie & a milan strapped to your torso does deserve some sort of recongition, such as being sectioned!!

[airborne_artist]

Although I do admit that jumping out of the back of one with a bergen, Gimpie & a milan strapped to your torso does deserve some sort of recongition, such as being sectioned!!

Add on the Clansman 320, the demolitions kit, plenty of rounds for the GPMG and AR16 and a few LAW 66s and you might be about right.

Then do the jump at night :ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Add on the Clansman 320, the demolitions kit, plenty of rounds for the GPMG and AR16 and a few LAW 66s and you might be about right.
Then do the jump at night :ok:
AA- Perhaps he's getting them confused with the 'easier' ones (although they're not exactly easy to get).
http://www.jdfmil.org/equipment/uniforms/images/parawings.jpg

[Tombstone]

AA- Perhaps he's getting them confused with the 'easier' ones (although they're not exactly easy to get).
http://www.jdfmil.org/equipment/uniforms/images/parawings.jpg

I am aware of the difference Stacker!

I had the pleasure of watching some TA SAS guys (not sure if they were 21 or 23) jumping out of a Herc in Jul '95 whilst on a skydiving course at Weston On The Green. As a lower priority course, we had to sit aside whilst the big boys jumped their Accelerated Freefall jumps with a 22 chap on each arm, superb stuff. Us low lifes on the sports course felt rather insignificant whilst standing around in our orange jump suits watching grown men land with enough hardwear to start a small war on 'em!!!

Fair play to you AA, I thought I'd done well getting up to a 56 sec delay wearing nothing more that a wrist altimeter, soiled boxershorts & a jumpsuit!

[airborne_artist]

Relatively speaking the para courses were not seen as hard work. I never saw anyone fail one, put it that way. 273 people started the Selection I passed. 12 finished.:cool:

[L J R]

Whizz,
'ave you been sleepin for the past 5 FIVE years man.
Navs (WSOP, Airborne Tactixions or whatever they are called 'ave 'ad two wings for a while!!!. Old school choose not to wear the new ones, but they 'avebeen two winged brevets for at least 5 yrs.
BTW I agree wiff ya sentiment. Buit we all yawned last century!
Welcome to the new milenium.....
LJR (Ex Nav & Prowd of it!)
(spelling is somefink I do at work.)

[Tombstone]

Relatively speaking the para courses were not seen as hard work. I never saw anyone fail one, put it that way. 273 people started the Selection I passed. 12 finished.:cool:

AA,

Genuine question...

When SAS troopers gained their parachute wings, were they not simply doing the same course that a Para would have to complete? I was under the impression that the (sceptre?) wings were different only to distinguish the fact that the bearer was SAS.

I appreciate that P company is less challenging (although still bloody tough) than selection however, in order to gain your wings I thought you simply needed to get the required number of jumps under your belt.

Standing by to be corrected & then slotted! :eek:

[antipodean alligator]

Whizzwheel,

What do you think gives you the right to whinge about this....As far as you are concerned nothing has changed in the last 5 years..The real people who are pissed off here are the older Navigators who have had their Brevet stolen from them by a Pilot making a decision that nobody likes. Remember lad, the Air Farce is and always will be run by and on behalf of the 2 winged master race.....It seems that this latest decision is some lame attempt at trying to convince us that we can be part of it?

Don't dabble in genetics I say!

[Nothing_but_blue]

Bit of background info for those who care.

The idea for the change came from a NAVIGATOR, so don't blame us pilots...yes, it was approved by a pilot (CAF) however it was a bunch of civvies and a Navigator that came up with the idea. The concept was two fold. First to assist with recruiting as it was identified by potential recruits as something that may affect their decision to become a Navigator. The second justification was rather than continuing to create wings for all those "new" Officer Aircrew categories ie Airborne Fighter Controller etc and the fact they may end up the same cat anyway, why not give them the same brevet.

[eagle 86]

These decisions are usually made by someone who is in a minority but in a position of influence and have the drive to push the barrow. A couple of examples:
RAN FAA aircrew wings - in the seventies "someone" decided that it would be nice to have a set of "gold" metal wings to pin on summer rig (prior to this wings or decorations were not worn on summer working rig). Some ****** decided that these metal wings would essentially have "two" wings for all three specialties (pilot, observer, aircrewman) with minor differences to the centre motif to distinguish, at a very close up glance, who was who.
All were immediately up in arms - off the sleeve - obs lost their beloved "squashed" butterfly - the actual metal wings were and still are crap (commonly found in Kellog Corn Flake packets - my junior TAA wings were better) when compared to, say USN, RAAF, AAAC.
Related subject - Oz gets rid of Imperial decorations and introduces egalitarian system - thinking that troops would no longer feel that they belonged to an under class - wrong! - the diggers of all three services were justifiably proud of their DSM, MM, DFM because, unless they were originally lower deck, an officer could not be awarded them.
Might seem like a small point and normally might be except that the same wankers are not doing a good job of overall defence force management.
GAGS
E86

[Nothing_but_blue]

I certainly feel for the older Navigators out there who feel as though they are victims of a crime they didn't commit. Unfortunately that is life. My Uncle was a Navigator with 467 SQN in the WWII and wrote home about the older "Observers" who had been forced to take on Navigator wings (admittedly it was because they did Navigator training!!) however human nature (not the band you youngins!!!) is such that we all like to be part of our own team....why is that aircrew stick together yet put a bunch of Pilots and Navs in a room and you would think you are at a High School social....ie boys on one side girls on the other...(no other analogies please....will only get ugly!!!.....)

[control snatch]

Dont worry dude

Just means you have to get closer before realising it's someone you dont want to talk to.

You didnt do pilots course just to get that second wing did you?

[Whizzwheel]

Does said nav-wing-extender have the initials JT?

Looks like the category name is about to change too - something like 'Airborne Mission Tactical Specialist Commander Astronaut'. I just feel sorry for the bloody hard working, bloody talented Navs who busted a gut to earn a brevet that was steeped in history and pride, now just generic NPA.

CS: No, just ranting!

[Truckmasters]

I thought his initials were LT. If not LT certainly had a major part in the staff process and design (probably the same person)

[Whizzwheel]

Probably right - second name ends in -ker?

[dirty_bugger]

OK flying dudes....you have a choice........


Flying pay or a nice set of wings??????????????


half of you will be honest; the other half liars.

[hanger_pilot]

Badge any day!

Because, for me, money means nothing. I am the Queens man, I protect the symbol of royalty and the dominance of democracy.

By the way, what is the ratio of FJ pilots getting out the forces to fly for airlines against those who believe the crap I said above?

Greed is a dirty word.

[parabellum]

AA will correct me if I am wrong but, in days gone by, the SAS lads would complete their initial training as SAS and immediately prior to being 'badged' would join the jumping school at Abingdon to do the balloon and aircraft jumps.

Having just completed an intensive course of training based at Hereford the SAS lads were every bit as fit and every bit, if not more, militarily able and airborne forces suitable as their para colleagues so they didn't do the full 'P' Company.

[airborne_artist]

TS - parabellum is correct. We were badged at the end of PTS - there's no additional badge (or pay) for completion of HALO training. Us part-timers did a one w/e P Coy, except I managed to get out of it!

[Tombstone]

Parabellum & Airborne Artist,

thanks very much for info, always interesting to hear it straight from the horses mouth.

A colleague on 16AAB told me about a holding officer who joined the unit not so long back, whilst waiting for his course at 208 Sqn. Whilst at 16AAB, he had a crack at P company & broke several records in the process. Fair play to the Paras, they took it well & did nothing but pat him on the back (probably working out where best to stick the bayonet at a later date;)).

Is it possible for anybody to have a crack at it? I quite fancy the idea of it although I'm not too sure how the Sqn OC would receive my application!

I do a lot of fell running & try to maintain a high level of fitness so, would it be worth my while investigating the possibility or, would they simply offer me the proverbial finger?

[airborne_artist]

Can't see why not - ask around, or just ring them up!:ok:

[baffler15]

Is it just me, or am I right to be piss@d as hell about people who haven't done WINGS test wearing WINGS (note plural)?? And what of the 70-80 odd years of blood, sweat and history behind the flippantly-discarded Nav (etc) Brevet? The bucket of sh%t is starting to fill...:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

C'mon whizz, give 'em a break. Every badged pilot knows that nav course is one of the hardest in the RAAF - 'coz you have to do half of pilots course first!!:ok:

The Baffler

PS. A bit controversial for my first post, I know. Before all you old salty ppruners out there arc up on the newbie, it is just a friendly jibe. Love you guys (navs) like a brother!!:}

[bob55]

Latest news (direct from CDR SRG) is that Navs, Air Defence Officers and AEAs will all become Air Combat Officers.

And they will all wear wings, including the ground based Air Defence Officers.

This causes come contention with Air Traffic Control Officers, who essentially work in similar environments as (Ground based) Air Defence Officers, and won't be included in the category.

The issue came up a few years ago and most ATC's did not want a brevet - but that was before they knew that all Air Defence Officers would get it. Most people believed it was only those who were AEW&C trained would wear them.

There is a proposal to include ATC in the category at a latter date, as ATC is about to go through a massive restructure, becoming more tactically based. One proposal is for ATCs who achieve a senior rank (either SQNLDR or WGCDR, yet to be decided) to be recategorised as Air Combat Officers. This is because most senior ATCs don't control and are involved in airspace management and CAOCs etc.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Another step on the road to becoming a USAF clone......:rolleyes:

[antipodean alligator]

When you check the stock number and name for the new pseudo squashed moth it appears on the stacker's computer screens as Brevet - Non Aircrew....Therefore let the Air Tragicers have it and leave the rest of us with what we were presented with on Grad Parades.

And another thing! The bottom star is in the wrong place on the metal version, so as I'm clearly an old school Navigator who is unwilling to move with the times and embrace my future, I would like to propose that we approach CAF to have the new badge cancelled; as it is clearly in contradiction to the Bible of all poor sods who spent a year of their life at East Sale.....The Air Almanac.

[brickhistory]

Another step on the road to becoming a USAF clone......:rolleyes:

Does that mean you'll be being operating enough aircraft to matter? :}

[Captain Sand Dune]

We can "matter" with a lot less aircraft!:ok:

[brickhistory]

We can "matter" with a lot less aircraft!:ok:


"Fewer" actually, but either way, good on ya!

[Charlie Luncher]

It is fine to introduce a new brevet to new recruits, but to discard the right of the more mature amongst us to wear the award they were given for a lot of blood, sweat and tears is wrong. It is right up there with removing the individuality of crew patches.
I am sure that the F111 navigator along with WOD support will now be happy with the grey men in their own model they have created.:ugh: :mad:
Charlie sends

[Captain Sand Dune]

A "common brevet", no flying suit patches (can't demonstrate personality now, can we!), a data base of "approved" SQN caps, shirts and badges etc....
Considering the RAAF is more operationally active now then it has been for many years, I thought this blunt cr*p would have been consigned to the bottom drawer.

Is this the return of the "7th Floor WOD"?:hmm:

[fastener]

One wing or two, we all know the purpose of the nav is to give the pilot something to eat until he gets rescued.

[antipodean alligator]

One wing or two, we all know the purpose of the nav is to give the pilot something to eat until he gets rescued.

Interesting concept.! Most pilots I know are anorexic compared to the eating machines they fly with...I reckon you got that the wrong way around.

Also, Post ejection sausage-side, Popping the Nav and sticking an F-16 patch on his velcro won't work either!

[antipodean alligator]

Went to a Pathfinder Force Association Dedication Service yesterday. Met a buch of the PFF veterans, almost all of whom commented that it was good to see someone sporting the single wing Brevet. (They keep up with all goings-on!)

During the dedication speech, the PFF Assoc President mentioned his initial PFF interview with Don Bennett.....Apparently he was asked why he was wearing his Observer Brevet vice the Navigator one, and replied that he would never wear a brevet in place the one he was awarded upon graduation.

Apparently this was seized upon by Bennett who replied that as an Observer he should be capable of 20wpm Morse Code and then proceeded to flip over a hinged morse key and tap out 40 words!

[Runaway Gun]

it it it it it it it it it it it it it it :hmm: