bmi (industrial action vote)

[Fuzzy112]

bmi baby pilots to ballot for industrial action next week

bmi mainline / bmi regional pilots the week after

Interesting times indeed!

[mmeteesside]

Any ideas what day(s?) a strike would be planned for bmibaby (if indeed thats what they voted for in the ballot) as I am due to fly on them on Thursday, so I'm hoping that (as I would guess) they would strike after that :)
Would be a bad start to our US holiday if it was Thursday though, though I seriously doubt it :}

[Fuzzy112]

The onnly information I have is a letter sent by the General Secretary of BALPA which would indicate Strike Action by mid to end August. Don't book with bmi baby if you are travelling then.

[Arkroyal]

mme,

Nothing can possibly move that quickly. Ballot papers to be issued, votes cast, votes counted, action decided. Weeks away.

[perkin]

whats the dispute over, if no-one minds me asking? (non-pilot, non-spotter, interested by-stander :) )

[one four sick]

The dispute is over - ERODING CONDITIONS AND OF COURSE ERODING FLIGHT PAY.
Without going into too much boring detail, this company's management have adopted a "don't give a sh*t stance". They have ceased to negotiate with balpa and started emposing conditions of pay which are completely unrealistic.
Pilots are now literally losing money since April, as the Inland Revenue have increased their taxation of sector pay. Negotiations were taking place between the management and the IR in a stealthy manner, despite opposition from balpa before April, the result of course is the above.
The management think they will get away with this by just burrying their heads in the sand.
Well - there's water under the sand and they are beginning to smell it!!!:ok:

one four sick

[NITROUS]

I understand all 3 groups were balloted for initial feeling....all were in favour of action around the 96% margin. I gather talks have now broken down and its heading for action.

This year a pay rise was imposed by management with no improvement to the T's and C's and NO negotiation!!!??? What sort of an outfit operates in this manner? Flying Club behaviour.

They are underestimating ill feeling amongst the crews and believe support for action has been hyped by BALPA....IT HASN'T and it will bite them this time I feel unless they come to their senses.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TimV]

What a complete shame this is. I fly with Bmi a lot on the Heathrow - Edinburgh route and cannot praise the crew/service enough. In comparison to the rivals - and you know who you are - Bmi just simply cut the mustard. Shame on the management if they try to upset a well oiled machine. I work for a large TV broadcaster and we are in exactly the same position - professional work done by hard working folk totally taken for granted by the current management team. Good luck Bmi crew - try not to let it get you down.

Btw I would have been flight crew if my eyes hadn't been so bandy so have to make do with sitting out back!

[NITROUS]

Timv,

hopefully common sense will win the day.....BALPA remains proud in that to date its never actually had to call the troops out yet...but there's always a first time....

[Count von Altibar]

Unfortunately those at board level in bmi seem to have forgotten the importance of dealing with the pilot workforce with respect reference their annual pay negotiations. This is most likely going to result in a strike ballot which will ultimately lead to notice of impending industrial action. I don't think Nigel & Tim are particularly experienced in this scenario and therefore may find that the damage caused could and most probably will, lead to their downfall. They're playing a very dangerous game if they want to continue their careers within bmi. Mr Bishop has been ruthless in the past with people who screw-up! I certainly wouldn't want to be a pilot manager either, the mis-management will ultimately threaten their positions as well. It's time for the pilots at bmi to stand-up and be counted or face further degradation of their conditions & pay.

Regards, The Count

[perkin]

What a complete shame this is. In comparison to the rivals - and you know who you are - Bmi just simply cut the mustard.

I'd have to second this, I've flown BMI mainline and Baby (as pax) and I've been nothing but impressed with the level of service from flight and cabin crews and groundstaff alike and in the quality of the aircraft. You're all doing a great job from what I can see and its very sad when professionals feel they have to resort to strike action to make themselves heard to their 'management'. I hope you can resolve your dispute without detriment to yourselves, your pax and the airline, but sadly there's nearly always losers in these affairs... :uhoh:

[upandoffmyside]

Different issues in each of the three parts of the group - mainline, baby and regional.

But the common thread is the attitude and manner in which the bmi group has refused to negotiate with the pilots.

In mainline the main issue is the unilateral cancellation by bmi of the major part of the 2004 pay agreement which took place a few months ago.

That agreement hammered out over many months and ballotts in 2004, said that for 2006 a negotiated settlement would be arrived at following a survey of bmi pilots' packages versus those of other airlines.

That survey was carried out in 2005 but then in early 2006 bmi said that the whole process of settling the 2006 pay award was going to take too long and a modest group award was imposed on the pilots. End of story. Thank you for waiting for two years, go away and don't make a fuss about it.

At the same time there are many other issues in bmi mainline that fuel the present feeling of upset and annoyance -

Massive hikes in proposed pension contributions -from 10% to 18.5%, which are somewhat high by any measure.

A new rostering system which continually produces lates rosters and with the wrong nightstop preferences.

An abysmal off-airport staff car park and bus service and despite constant promises just gets worse. This wastes around 40mins every working day, extending the day and crucially is before official report and after official report - ie in so called "rest" time by CAA definition and is not "duty".

A nine year wait (at present) for a central car park pass. Central car parks are just a few minutes walk away.
(If you are a non-pilot working in a bmi ground service dept - cabin crew management/check-in etc you can get a central pass after a few years)

A lack of a promised 80% part time scheme (another part of the 2004 agreement forgotten about by bmi).

No new commands since 2001.

Promises of expansion and commands through long haul - " the engine of growth". Minimal expansion and only wet leased in capacity with denied promotions.

And to finish off - one recent example that sums up the whole bmi attitute to its staff nicely - in a new LHR crew room revamp they've taken away all the chairs for the pilots and cabin crew briefing areas and just left high tables to stand by and lean on.

No longer can you afford to sit down, digest, mull, discuss and plan your days multisector duty with your colleagues in a professional manner.

bmi - professional staff working for questionable management - who refuse to answer the questions.

[Fuzzy112]

upandoffmyside,

What a great post, says it all really, at least for mainline. - well said!

[Count von Altibar]

I have to agree, an excellent post. Highlights a lot of the current problems witin bmi, there are many more...

[Looker]

For Baby the major gripes are:

1. Imposition of group pay award (although management insists group pay awards don't occur!) no negotiation - just go away we can't be bothered with you :ouch:

2. Unilateral changes to the profit share scheme to the detriment of the pilots - this despite the fact that the profit share is defined in the 'Playground rules' and as such form part of our contract of employment :ouch:

3. Lastly and most painfully, they screwed up our arrangement with the IR regarding tax position of sector pay. The CC requested no increase in sector pay during the 04/05 pay round to protect the advantageous tax position we enjoyed - did management listen and respect that? of course not and they imposed a 3.2% increase on sector pay. Result was that the IR decided to review the sector pay and generously decided we could now expect only £5 tax free per day provided we completed 3 or more sectors :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

Thus Baby pilots have actually experienced a reduction in take home pay thanks to management incompetence - about £2k for captains :ugh:
The Baby CC have tried to negotiate with the Company over this issue but have been stone walled by management. Remember this is still the 04/05 pay round that has to be resolved, something that should have been completed in April 2005 :ugh:
Baby pilot's patience has been exhausted and frankly we're up for the fight, expect a good ballot result and some disruption in August.

Bash the Bish takes on a new meaning :mad:

And the stand up tables in the crew room is a *^+$ ing stupid idea

edited for incompetence with a calculator!

[Leezyjet]

An abysmal off-airport staff car park and bus service and despite constant promises just gets worse. This wastes around 40mins every working day, extending the day and crucially is before official report and after official report - ie in so called "rest" time by CAA definition and is not "duty".

A nine year wait (at present) for a central car park pass. Central car parks are just a few minutes walk away.
(If you are a non-pilot working in a bmi ground service dept - cabin crew management/check-in etc you can get a central pass after a few years)


Oh please tell me that you were only joking with this being one of the gripes of Bmi pliots ?.

Maybe the other 99% of LHR workers that have to park on the perimeter and take the bus should also go on strike too.

:rolleyes:

[Fuzzy112]

Maybe the other 99% of LHR workers that have to park on the perimeter and take the bus should also go on strike too.
:rolleyes:
You and others like you miss the point every time. Pilots work to rigid regulations with respect to flight time limitations. I appreciate the fact that someone who works in an office at Heathrow would feel they have the same right to a central car park pass but you have to acknowledge that whilst we might work for the same company we also work in DIFFERENT professions of which 'being a pilot' has the greatest number of regulations. Your post perpetuates the myth that pilots think they are a 'special' case. They aren't and they don't. I would support any working group who have the bXXls to stand up to their management and say enough is enough. Unless you are one of them? you should support them to - you might need them on your side one day.

[upandoffmyside]

It's clearly not a headline grabber in this dispute but it's a significant and long standing gripe along with the all the others that bmi refuse to do anything about.

The Magnatex (Car Park F) parking service is the worst at LHR. Its combination of distance and lack of frequent buses is unequalled at the airport. No other staff car park is served by only four buses per hour for large chunks of the day and six per hour for part of the day.

Many other staff car parks have buses at less than ten minute intervals and are closer.

No body's got a problem with perimeter car parks at all - there are some excellent ones at LHR, which in many respects with frequent buses are preferable to central area.

bmi refuse to recognise the negative impact this service has on the daily working lives of the staff. You have to be in Magnatex to really appreciate it.

[keepitlit]

I agree,with all the expected recruiting from other airlines in the winter I dont think anyone would be out of a job for to long.
Well put guys and I know some management read this and I really do hope we dont end up with industrial action as no one wins but if needs must, so fix it before it really gets broken.

P.S. and dont even get me started about the pension!:ugh: :ugh: :mad: :mad:

Rgds

K.I.L.

[Indianzz]

I'm a Kiwi SLF who has been travelling annually to Glasgow for the past 5 years or so. Air NZ to LHR and then BMI to Glasgow. January this year was my last time and I do mean my last time to ever use BMI.

I have never had a flight that was on time but I guess that is just the way at LHR. I have noticed a steady decline in staff attitude and one just got the feeling that not everything was well within the company - and that's just as an occassional pax.

Service and attitudes at Glasgow are or were just terrible.

Because my travel in January was at short notice the fare (LHR / GLA / LHR was horrific, the flights as usual were late and the killer for me was the fact that I was asked to pay for the tea or coffee!!

I knew at that point that BMI was stuffed and that a thread like this would only be a matter of time.

I agree that a company usually reflects its management and it would seem that BMI sadly is a glowing example of this.

[tifters]

Sorry to butt in on your thread guys, but this sort of topic is close to m,y heart.........your management attitude is quite the norm these days unfortunately. This is due largely in part to us pilots "inactivity" to be united and ability to stand up to these money pinching sods!!!! It has been happening all over the world for too long and our industry has been dragged down because of it. Sooner or later we have to make a stand and i hope that your cause is strong enough to do this.
Signs all over that pilot bodies are fed up with this on going degregation of conditions and hopefully the worm is turning, now its our turn!!!
Good luck guys/gals!

[Caractacus]

What is the state of the pension fund deficit these days?

[Roy Avison]

IndianZZ,

How's this. I am reliably informed the bmi regional staff who position with bmi mainline before / after a duty are still 'on duty' as it were (often after a very long day and hours of hanging around LHR) but are expected to buy their own tea / coffee because it's a bmi mainline service. They are at work, but have no access to refreshments and most wouldn't even dare to bug the cabin crew for a glass of water because they're too busy trying to sell stuff like Heathrow Express tickets and the like.:confused:

Signs of a caring employer? No wonder there's trouble at t'Mill. You don't get owt for nowt and staff attitudes will reflect the state of morale.

[MrBernoulli]

No offence folks, but I think the gripes about not having tea and coffee available at work, unless paid for, are misplaced. I work for one of the largest airlines and we have to pay for every cuppa. I don't begrudge that at all - in fact I would expect it. Tea and coffee don't grow on trees :ok: .... ha ha, of course they do. But it still needs to be paid for by someone.

Concentrate your efforts on the other terms and conditions and stop harping on about a cuppa. It looks petty in the extreme when veiwed from out here. Hey, I'm on you're side and have met several former BMI pilots who have joined the airline I fly for - I've heard first-hand. Perhaps just direct your efforts with a bit more thought about what is really important.

[saymachnumber]

Don't forget we at bmi regional have to buy our own food when we're operating the flight too. There are no crew meals provided and it's room-only accommodation when we get to the hotel.
Are biggest issue is that we have no scheduling agreement. We can report for our rostered 4 sector duty and end up on a three day nightstop. Our rosters are changed at the last minute leaving us unable to make any personal committments around the published roster. Similar operators like Bacon and Flybe have agreements in place which allow pilots to refuse last minute changes and give compensation if they choose to accept.
If we could make progress on the above we'd be a more contented bunch - and I haven't even talked about the payrise.:sad:

[ajamieson]

Concentrate your efforts on the other terms and conditions and stop harping on about a cuppa. Perhaps just direct your efforts with a bit more thought about what is really important.
Couldn't agree more.

Very, very regular Midland SLF here and you have my full support in your actions for better conditions (if the way they're treating you is anything like the way they're been treating regular customers since last summer, I can fully sympathise). But it doesn't look good if you're getting free tea and water when the revenue pax sitting around you have paid upwards of £260 for a flex economy ticket and still have to pay for their cuppa. Stick to the top issues, and good luck.

[Stelios]

MrBernoulli

It's not about losing focus and fighting for the "wrong" thing. You need to understand - it's all about EROSION. A once free provision, now has to be paid for. It's going backwards and that's what needs stopping. No matter how small it sounds. When joined to all other "gripes" it just adds weight.

saymachnumber

Your conditions are similar to baby's. We also get hoyked around without notice and suddenly you're on a 4 hour later finish from what you've planned.
It is inconceivable that this could continue for much longer. I have heard of pilot's refusing extensions to their duties lately. The airline is like a wounded animal, literally staggering around and relying on a few people that may have any sort of goodwill left in them to "help" prop the program up.
Days off are bought in a frenzy. You're never safe from crewing trying to collar you, even if you're up to 98 hours!!! Always answer your phone drunk if you don't want to work extra.

[Hirsutesme]

Terrible state of affairs, echoed in many other airlines, and most of these appalling management styles, and the erosions of Ts and Cs are copied from Ryanair, which is, guess what, non unionised.!
But hopefully, that will change, and as others have said, hacked off pilots will support each other, fight back, and improve conditions and SAFETY for crew and pax alike. Good luck guys.

[Fuzzy112]

Couldn't agree more.
Very, very regular Midland SLF here and you have my full support in your actions for better conditions (if the way they're treating you is anything like the way they're been treating regular customers since last summer, I can fully sympathise). But it doesn't look good if you're getting free tea and water when the revenue pax sitting around you have paid upwards of £260 for a flex economy ticket and still have to pay for their cuppa. Stick to the top issues, and good luck.
I'd like to ask you a genuine question - WHY are you paying £260 for a flex economy ticket when you have to pay for your own tea and coffee? I don't get it. With the greatest respect why do you not vote with your feet?
Do remember that cabin crew or flight crew when travelling either off duty or on duty spend a large amount of time in a VERY dry environment. You have to take in far more fluids than you would otherwise have to. Please don't begrudge them a free glass of water to maintain their health.

[JW411]

On the other hand, free coffee and tea are diuretics and make you even more dehydrated!

[Accident Prawn]

JW411

Then mate, they'll have to be given more and more.
At the end of the day dehydration is not acceptable in aircrew.
If you've ever flown you'd know it.:ugh:

AP

[Fuzzy112]

On the other hand, free coffee and tea are diuretics and make you even more dehydrated!

Sorry, a bit of thread drift here but from The Coffee Science Information Centre:

Quote

Q: So will drinking coffee make me dehydrated?

A: No, coffee is an important source of fluid in the diet and moderate consumption, of 4-5 cups per day for the general population, will have no adverse effect on fluid levels in the body. In fact, experts in nutrition state that coffee can contribute significantly to daily fluid intake.

Q: I have read that I should drink a glass of water for each cup of coffee I consume – is this true?

A: No, the diuretic effect of coffee in moderate amounts is no greater than water. The British Nutrition Foundation confirms this by stating that you do not need to drink more water to compensate for consuming caffeinated drinks.

Unquote

You really should not believe everything you see and read!

[ajamieson]

from The Coffee Science Information Centre
...
You really should not believe everything you see and read!
Indeed not, especially when your information comes from an organisation which represents the interests of coffee manufacturers!

Anyway, back to the thread...
WHY are you paying £260 for a flex economy ticket when you have to pay for your own tea and coffee? I don't get it. With the greatest respect why do you not vote with your feet?
Do you work for Midland? If so, it isn't a very good idea to encourage your high-spending customers to go elsewhere :hmm: I sometimes pay the £260 because that's what Midland charges those who need to get from EDI to LHR and back at short notice (fair enough...BA charges a similar amount). I stay loyal to Midland partly because of the lovely people who work there (those that still do). If I really want a cup of tea I can get one in the lounge or just buy one.
Do remember that cabin crew or flight crew when travelling either off duty or on duty spend a large amount of time in a VERY dry environment. Please don't begrudge them a free glass of water to maintain their health.
Regular customers are aware of dry cabins - we spend a lot of time in them, too! As I said, crew from both sides of flight deck door have my full support in this current climate...but it really doesn't take too much imagination to source your own food and drink prior to a positioning flight. If you want to take the issue up, why not ask for coffee and bottled water to be provided free in the crew room? Besides, if water is essential for health in the air, how come pax have to pay for it :E

[Fuzzy112]

Regular customers are aware of dry cabins - we spend a lot of time in them, too! As I said, crew from both sides of flight deck door have my full support in this current climate...but it really doesn't take too much imagination to source your own food and drink prior to a positioning flight. If you want to take the issue up, why not ask for coffee and bottled water to be provided free in the crew room? Besides, if water is essential for health in the air, how come pax have to pay for it :E
Sorry yes I forgot - 55 minutes from EDI to LHR is a big strain. Your crew are doing 6 hours plus per day in that environment. If you are prepared to pay £260 and pay for your tea and coffee all in the name of 'loyalty' to an airline then thats fine, I wish we had more like you - Just don't go and complain about it in a forum like this - you have a choice.:E

[JW411]

My flippant comment about coffee and tea was meant to be a joke but it seems that some of you out there are totally lacking in a sense of humour.

Fuzzy112:

You quote research from the Coffee Science Information Centre in evidence!
How incredibly naive. When I was flying long-haul in DC-10s we had medical research prove that by the time we had completed a London - Los Angeles flight, the cabin was only 7% humid. (Very few aircraft nowadays are fitted with humidifiers). The human body likes the atmosphere to be around 90% humid.

Do you think that the Coffee Science Information Centre assumed a 7% humid atmosphere as their model when asked those rather basic and heavily loaded questions?

I was suffering from some strange symptoms after a long flight like this. For example, little bits of light flashing in my eyes and sought help from the aviation medics. I was diagnosed as being dehydrated. I was told to stop drinking coffee and to drink as much as I sensibly could of the nearest thing to water. I never ever had another problem.

Accident Prawn:

"If you've ever flown you'd know it".

I do apologise that 49 years of professional flying is not enough for you. I look forward to further advice from you. In the meantime, get a sense of humour.

BMI Pilots:

I do apologise for the thread creep but I felt I had to answer. I wish you every luck in improving your lot. I have had many mates who have been screwed by the management of BMI without so much as a by-your-leave.

[Fuzzy112]

My flippant comment about coffee and tea was meant to be a joke but it seems that some of you out there are totally lacking in a sense of humour.

Sorry, humour is lacking in bmi at the moment. If you have had your mates screwed by bmi management in the past then you of all people will know why. Perhaps you could cut me some slack as well. I am humbled by your superior knowledge. All I did was type Coffee and diuretic into a google search and thats what came out. I don't mind taking advice from people like you. It is when we get passengers in this type of forum making it seem like they have the faintest clue what is going on behind the scences on their aircraft. I would not for one minute be so patronising as to tell them how to behave or what they should do at their work. Why should we have to listen to such rubbish here?:mad:

[Roy Avison]

Having been responsible in part for the creep of this thread, I wish to point out that access to tea and coffee is only one tiny issue, I am reliably informed, in a miserable morass of crew-unfriendly, demeaning and dictatorial treatment by the company.

All of this is stuff I have been told at the airfield bar.

Lets get some more detailed commentary from those at the coal-face. Unless of course, people feel afraid to speak out on this forum for fear of a witch-hunt and censure.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Roy
Lets get some more detailed commentary from those at the coal-face. Unless of course, people feel afraid to speak out on this forum for fear of a witch-hunt and censure.

There is a thread running in the bmi forum. However, I think that those of us within bmi are loathe to put private thoughts on such a public bulletin board as this where they will be sniped at by those outside bmi. There is a reticence to hang out dirty washing.

What is needed is a response from us pilots that shows resolve and commitment to acheiving a respectful response from the company. That way we will get the deal we need without the acrimony of inter-divisional wrangling and back-biting.

In my view the only way to acheive this is by using the nominated negotiators (BALPA) - they are the only people that the company will deal with. For those pilots outside BALPA, it would be a positive step in the right direction if they would stop bickering - after all they benefit from from the collective bargaining in the long run.
Anne :)

[Looker]

The issues that are driving the pilots to ballot for industrial action do not revolve around tea and coffee provision, they are much deeper and all stem from blinkered management attitudes towards employer/employee relations.
Imposition of group pay awards.
Not paying said group pay awards for nearly 12 months.
Refusal of management to sit down and discuss issues, even when the Gen Sec of BALPA is the one requesting a meeting.
Unilateral changes to terms and conditions.
Loss of net income through management stupidity / arrogance.
Whenever I have positioned on Mainline, Baby or Regional the cabin crew have offered a 'crew coffee/tea' without fail. So let's drop the cr*p about tea/coffee.
A great bunch of flight deck / cabin crew led by the most inept managers I have had the misfortune to work for. Bring on the ballot!

[babybaby]

Hear Hear Looker :D

ajamieson is a passenger who is likely to be affected when we go on strike and yet he actually supports the crews standing up for what is right :ok:. We are fortunate to have passengers like him/her. Allowing the thread to wander into making it look like having free tea and coffee when positioning is a big issue is :=. Okay it may be just another example of bmi's arrogant imposed changes on its workers but to focus on it is daft.:ugh:

As ajamieson says: stick to the big issue.

Anyone know when do we get to vote? bmi used to be considered a reasonably good airline to travel on, if not to work for, and it seems management are doing a good job of wrecking that too.



Bring it on.

babybaby :{

[keepitlit]

heard the papers will be sent out over the next 7 days

rgds

K.I.L.

[Jordan D]

Story is on BBC News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5216386.stm

Jordan

[Dr. Spin]

Please remember that all three branches of the company (mainline, baby and regional) are balloting on separate issues. Any subsequent industrial stoppages will only affect the branch concerned. However, all three will probably be arranged to coincide for maximum impact. According to the article above it looks like the 'baby' ballots have just gone out. As far as mainline is concerned BALPA still have to give the 7 days notification to the company of their intent to ballot, although this is imminent.
bmi have never paid the 'going rate' for anything and it will be an uphill struggle to alter the mindset of management.
Unfortunately the pilot body rolled over and had their tummy tickled the last time we balloted on industrial action a few years ago and the management probably assumes we will do the same again. I feel they may be in for a shock!;)

[CaptainProp]

Good luck to you all!!
/CP

[Looker]

The press release from BALPA gives some key points / dates.

http://www.balpa.org/Media---Pr/bmi%20release.htm

My only gripe is that this potrays us as a bunch of pilots rejecting a 2.4% pay rise for this year. Actually we're in dispute over the previous year's imposed pay round which resulted in a net loss of income through sector pay and profit share - both unilaterally imposed by management. The fact that we're still trying to sort this out 18 months later gives you some indication of the patience shown by the pilots at Baby and of the intransigence of management.

We're fighting an imposed pay cut, it is not about being sniffy over the size of a pay rise!

[mutualswap]

"At the heart of these disputes is the total lack of respect shown by the company towards its key people... the airline pilots," said Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa.

wots the saying again "no 1 player is bigger than the team"!!!

:ugh: :D :oh: := :{ :mad:

[lamina]

Guys, please dont rise to mutants bait. I really don't want this thread diverging down the tea & coffee path again.:bored:

Hey mutant,you wouldn't have the initials AG by any chance?

[Vol7]

I am trying to remain impartial on this matter could somebody please tell me exactly what the Pilots expect to get from strike action.
-
As far as I can see their two biggest gripes are the imposed 2.4% pay increase that the rest of the groups employees have accepted in these trying times and also the further taxation of sector pay which I understand from the previous posts is due to the inland revenue.
-
Surely strike action can only harm the group as a whole and cause an enormous amount of cost which seems to me would only further harm any pay talks in the future.

[one four sick]

As far as I can see their two biggest gripes are the imposed 2.4% pay increase that the rest of the groups employees have accepted in these trying times and also the further taxation of sector pay which I understand from the previous posts is due to the inland revenue.


You said it VOL7: imposed 2.4% +further taxation of sector pay. We want NEITHER.

Surely strike action can only harm the group as a whole and cause an enormous amount of cost which seems to me would only further harm any pay talks in the future.

Surely that's the decision for management. They have the facts.

[haughtney1]

Not a BMI pilot here...just an interested observer:ok:

Surely strike action can only harm the group as a whole and cause an enormous amount of cost which seems to me would only further harm any pay talks in the future

Perhaps the pilot body have exhausted all other means of influencing negotiations...the argument could be made that management have a lot more to lose than the pilots stand to lose:=

[Vol7]

Perhaps it is that they have exhausted all measures, but why should the pilots get more of a pay increase than the rest of the employees I actually think 2.4% is not bad, and why should the company foot the bill for the Inland Revenue increasing the tax on sector pay.
-
The rest of the company's employees will suffer as a result of strike action and it seems this don't care attitude from the Pilot community does not do them any favours, on top of that arrogant statements from BALPA like this
But the heart of these disputes is the total lack of respect shown by the company towards its key people, the highly trained, highly professional airline pilots,’ said Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of BALPA.
-
What about everyone else, I understand pilots are a valuable commodity to an airline and also very expensive to train but why not have a thought for the rest of the work force and lets not forget the passengers or does an airline just need Pilots to operate.
-
I'm afraid the more I read the less sympathy I have.:= :=

[Gary Lager]

It is lamentable that none of the other groups of employees have been organised enough to take an effective stand against the behaviour of the bmi board.

If they were then I am honestly certain they would be able to count upon support from the pilots, acutely aware as they are of the demands being made on bmi staff in the name of increasing profits.

The future success of all components of the bmi group is without a doubt a concern of the pilot group as well - they are not keen on signing our own death warrant - but they consider it no longer acceptable to build that success at the expense of continuning erosion of their working conditions, family lifestyle and professional dignity.

For example, that profitshare which all employees of baby have shared over the last couple of years has been achieved to a great degree by the pilots, in tolerating roster disruption, years of non-negotiated, delayed, salary impositions, and a slowly degrading quality of life compared to their colleagues elsewhere in industry.

Maybe the group won't make so much money next year as a result of the actions of the pilots, but the feeling is that enough is enough.

FYI, the current situation with the IR, regarding 'baby sector pay, was not initiated by the IR themselves, but by bmibaby management. The pilots feel that such an error should not be paid for out of their expenses.

[moist]

VOL 7

You don't sound like a pilot to me. That in itself is no problem at all. However you are making postings on a pilot website, on a thread about pilot welfare.
No one has the extra time to explain to you how the company and the Inland Revenue screwed things up exactly. Just take it from the posting pilots that we want to improve our standard of living, to which there are many more "silent" facets then mentioned here. Management are not playing, indeed they treat us as some inconvenient bunch of expensive extras.
Our conditions are deteriorating and going backwards. The first officers are all leaving, there's no future unless we fight for it.
Enough said.

[keepitlit]

Re: "I fear some of you may be too polite on the picket line"
Watch this space,we had one of the Mis/management who thinks hes a bit of a hard lad, with the usual swearing attitude at the pilot roadshows but he just looked a bit of a t**t.
Its the quite ones you have to look out for amoung the ranks most have the Labrador personality,very easy going until they feel they have been pushed into the corner,and i feel my friend that the corner is getting smaller.


rgds

K.I.L.

[Miss Management]

keepitlit - what are you talking about?

[keepitlit]

nothing to do with you miss,im just describing our management hence the miss management

rgds
K.I.L.

[bobmij]

[QUOTE=Dr. Spin]
bmi have never paid the 'going rate' for anything

This just about sums the whole problem up. The market dictates a value for goods and services and if that value is not paid then problems ensue. Experienced pilots and A330's (to name 2 completely random examples) have their natural value according to supply and demand and if you don't like like paying that value then these things tend to be in short supply. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if one wants to run a business with integrity and respect, then, as a business owner, I believe one should want to pay a fair (meaning market) rate. Come to that, why not a couple of percentage points more to show the workforce they are respected and valued. See what that does for profit, productivity and the infamous bottom line.
It's all basic management theory!

[Climb Limited]

The storm clouds build once more, forecast has never reached anything more than a 'Prob 30'. A big decision required now by those affected - can you afford not to turn up to work? How does this balance up with the desire to finally have your say and be listened to?

Is a strike the best option? The acutest of storms can be weathered ( look at BA), the real pain comes with 40 days and 40 nights of -DZ. Crap metaphors probably, what I'm trying to say is what ever happened to the work to rule, go slow, refuse discretion, full wings etc things you can do to make the same point ( and have fun at the same time!)

Non flying staff - be careful posting on a subject you know VERY little about.

Good luck to you all. Have the lie -in you deserve it.

;)

[devokeuk]

bmi management understand one thing. Sorry, I should say, Sir Michael Bishop understands one thing - bad MEDIA coverage and negative image of the group - (especially the guys and girls who are responsible for customers lives), is not a good thing. Senior directors heads will roll ( again ) if this gets to actual industural action. I for one support Sir Michael in this previous act.

Dublin ground staff stood their ground during the Aviance take over ,deal -or no deal - , although the reserves from the UK were drafted in to take up the flack. However I would like to see the flight ops directors of all 3 companies draft in Airbus / Boeing / Embraer Pilots at short notice with the hand shake of the CAA.

Stand firm - vote YES.

[Looker]

VOL 17,

if you want to contibute positively to this thread have the courtesy to read previous posts before you start tapping the keys.

If you had bothered to read previous posts you would have seen pilots in Baby have been patient in the extreme, 18 months of trying to engage the company in dialogue to no avail.

Also its not about a 2.4% pay rise its about an enforced 5% pay cut for some pilots.

[b mi baby]

I just wanted to say to members of staff who are not pilots but who read these threads - this is NOT about the pilots vs the rest of the working groups. That is what the company want you to think it is. I have spoken to engineers, cabin crew and load controllers and they ALL bar none have been supportive. I would urge ALL pilots in mainline, regional and baby, to take every chance they get to make sure that workers in other areas know what the issues are. Whilst we sit at the end with the point on it we all know that in reality it takes a team to get the aircraft into the air.
I would support any working group in the company who are prepared to put their hands up and say - no more, enoughs enough.
Good luck to all bmi pilots.

[Dr. Spin]

Over the last few years we have seen the gradual erosion of our overall package. This was generally accepted by the workforce to ease the company out of the difficult trading circumstances after Sept 11th.
Throughout there was an inference that all would be redressed once we returned to profit. This has not been the case.
All I wish for is realistic recompense with respect to my position as a highly motivated and professional operator.
I have been an airbus narrowbody skipper for many years now, and my take home salary is on a par with a year 1 long haul first officer in BA. When you now factor in a proposed increase of 8.5% (18.5% of gross salary instead of 10%) in my pension contributions for the same benefit then he will be earning more than me! I'm not having a go at BA here, and you could argue that if I don't like it then I could always go there, but I like where I am, I don't want to change seats anyway.
The pension issue has now been added to the list of items that BALPA and the management have 'failed to agree' on, and I for one will be lending my full support. :ok:

[Count von Altibar]

By turning up to work you'll be letting-down your colleagues who are prepared to stand up for their and your working conditions. It most probably won't come to action taking place but it's the only option left for now with the arrogant stance being taken by the management at bmi. As I've said before any axe swinging by Mr. Bishop will be at senior management (mis-management!)

[Vol7]

b mi baby
I take your comments on board and appreciate your adult approach to a discussion,my opinion was exactly that just my opinion
-
Looker I did read the previous posts and I am afraid that just because my point of view is different from yours does not mean it is worthless and should not be aired.
I do not see the merit in comments that my opinion is not valid just because I am not a Pilot when the decision you ultimately make will affect myself and thousands of others like me.
It is once again this elitist attitude that lets your colleagues down.
-
Perhaps with a more sensible approach to this topic you would have more support as I am not sure that currently the comments that "the work force is behind you" is exactly true.
-
Anyway I shall take heed of your advice and butt out of something that does not concern me.:mad:

[Gary Lager]

Climb Ltd -

work to rule/go slow/full wings/having fun/lie-ins...?

One thing the bmi pilots need to be at pains to point out throughout this dispute is that they are professionals, and deserve to be treated and valued as such.

If pilots cannot act correctly and professionally at all times at work, then they should not be at work at all.

No half-measures, and certainly no fun to be had during any kind of industrial action.

[co pilot]

VOL7
just because my point of view is different VOL7

Just what do you think you have "added" so far to this subject?
What would you like to contribute?
You have been told that you not being a pilot is not a problem, but you are still trying to say something but nothing's coming out.

[keepitlit]

Vol 7

You hit the nail right on the head,that is exactly what the pilot workforce is trying to do,show the management they need us more than they think and hopefully SMB will see the effect on his customers and put an offer on the table as its gone past talking they had that chance and blew it.
If it comes down to actual action but dont think for one second that we wont carry out and action,we didnt pick this fight but we are going to finish it.

Oh as for "elitist attitude" I dont know what job do you do but I bet you didnt you pay up to 60K like alot of us have!

I heard a comment about pilots being over paid premadonna's

I disagree we are not overpaid:O :D :ok:

rgds

K.I.L.

[Vol7]

ok fine
Rather than beat around the bush and try to be polite about the matter I will come right out with it.
-
I think that to strike is a very selfish approach to this problem
I think the Pilots issues are exaggerated and again selfish
Didn't the Pilots threaten to strike over the 2004 pay deal (boy who cried wolf)
It seems to me certain members make it worse for everybody else with their attitude and seem happy to try and run a company into the ground purely for their own gain.
The attitude of some crews give the good guys a bad name
-
Why not try and resolve this matter without dragging everyone else down
Work to rule if you have to, refuse to sell days off, refuse discretion but don't just decide to have a few days off and never mind the consequences for everyone else
-
K.I.L
I never said that Pilots were overpaid I know how much it costs to learn to fly and have no issues with Pilots Salaries. The elitist comment has absolutely nothing to with money just attitude.

[Dr. Spin]

Why not try and resolve this matter without dragging everyone else down.
Negotiations have been going on for many months now. We have exhausted all other avenues.
It is the management who are not prepared to even to meet with our representatives.
The 'demands' if you can call them such, are sympathetic with the position the company finds itself in with regard to the pension deficit, they ask for no more than parity within the industry. In fact the overall outline was the best piece of writing to come out of the New Road in the last decade.
I wish it could be resolved amicably but what you are witnessing is the end of a very long road! We're all fed up and tired of the stagnation, and we're not prepared to walk away!

[Gary Lager]

Vol 7: Over the last 18 months, the pilots have attempted to resolve the situation without resorting to industrial action.

They have put up with continual stalling and attmepts at fobbing off while they patiently tried to work something out, all the time that 'working into discretion' and selling days off were a significant factor in keeping company/group running at all, for the benefit of all of employees.

Doesn't sound particularly selfish to me.

The threat to strike in 2004 was taken seriously by management, a settlement was reached which was acceptable to all involved, thus there was no need to strike. This is how industrial relations (in their most degraded stage,sadly) work. No crying wolf - the pilots were deadly serious then, as now.

Pilots, perhaps more so than any other group of employees, are acutely aware of the commercial impact of critical decisions which they make daily. The same awareness extends to industrial matters - no sane individual, pilot or not, believes they can gain anything if a company is run 'into the ground', as you put it.

You seem to think this is about spite or some similar emotional response on behalf of the pilots - quite the opposite. Patience, goodwill, and reserves of dignity have been exhausted, the only practical, rational step left open to the pilots, after already attmepting all those avenues you mention, is the threat and, should it become necessary, delivery of industrial action.

[Looker]

VOL 7,

So you read the previous posts but clearly you didn't understand the thrust of our arguments.

18 months of negotiations with management who proved to be disengenuous.

18 months of reduced take home pay.

12 months waiting for the imposed pay rise to turn up in our salary.

If you can tell me which other group of workers within bmi has suffered the same treatment I'd like to hear about it.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT A 2.4% PAY RISE - ITS ABOUT A PAY CUT.

GOT IT? :ugh:

[co pilot]

VOL7's quotes:

I think that to strike is a very selfish approach to this problem

Doesn't matter what you think, let the majority decide.

I think the Pilots issues are exaggerated and again selfish

It's only your opinion, not many others think so.

It seems to me certain members make it worse for everybody else with their attitude and seem happy to try and run a company into the ground purely for their own gain.


I do hope you mean the management.

The attitude of some crews give the good guys a bad name

Good guys? Who do you mean? Those not in balpa?


Why not try and resolve this matter without dragging everyone else down

What? Where have you been. You cannot be serious!:yuk:

I never said that Pilots were overpaid I know how much it costs to learn to fly and have no issues with Pilots Salaries. The elitist comment has absolutely nothing to with money just attitude

I am one of the pilots. Who are you for xsake?

Listen guys, like on all threads there'll always be an odd one that stands out a mile from the rest. Then, everyone homes in and keeps on replying to the odd one out. I think we have a subject to write about and lets leave our friend VOL7 to himself now.:}

[Looker]

I agree with co pilot, seeing as VOL7 won't be receiving a ballot paper its pointless replying to his ignorant babble. :}
Speaking of ballot papers mine arrived today .... oh where should I put that cross? One of life's easier decisions :}

[Roman]

Why don't you just leave? The going rate for pilots would soon apply....

[co pilot]

Roman -

Are you VOL7 with another name?
You are almost identical.
You are an anti-pilot.:=

[PilotsPal]

I work with one of the country's leading legal pensions practices and noticed an item on today's electronic bulletin from a reference service widely used in the profession featuring the proposed increase in pension contributions for BMI Mainline pilots. I can say that everyone in my department who saw the item was astounded by the reported proposal by the company to increase contributions from 10% to 18% plus.

I wish those of you involved in the ballot all good fortune and hope for a satisfactory outcome for a situation brought about by most unsatisfactory behaviour by your employer.

[keepitlit]

I think Vol got the message,teeth back in at the read guys,right whos next!

Nice to hear what you just posted ********* thanks for the support:ok:

Rgds

K.I.L.

P.S. a few tips would be grateful

[Flying Mech]

Just Curious;
How many pilots are in Mainline,Baby & regional?. I know some of the 320 crews as I handle the a/c's at work every day. BMI have already shafted their Engineers in EMA at the behest of the Beancounters, the Hosties are cleaning the cabin for the same reason. Now pilots the beancounters are pointing the gun at you. They have already saved money by stalling you in a waffling exercise for 18 months out of which you have got nothing.. Time to call a spade a spade,downtools ( & Flightplans) and above all stick together & holdout because remember Managment have more to lose than you do. Everyday a fleet of 30 odd A/C are parked up the pressure on them increases to do anything to get them back iun the air. Eventually they will have to cave in. Best of luck!:ok:

[mccdatabase]

IF action were to take place and IF it was successful in gaining a higher percentage increase, bmi would find itself in a very difficult position with the rest of the non pilot workforce, in as much that pay awards in terms of percentage rises have generally been give to all across the board (for bmi mainline), and some unions may have provisos that if any other departments get a higher percentage award than they settled for, then they would also get the same percentage increase, after all when the company have given rises in the past they always say that they cannot give one section of the workforce a higher percentage than any other! It will be interesting to see how the management get themselves out of this one:eek:

[Fuzzy112]

IF action were to take place and IF it was successful in gaining a higher percentage increase, bmi would find itself in a very difficult position with the rest of the non pilot workforce, in as much that pay awards in terms of percentage rises have generally been give to all across the board (for bmi mainline)
Could not agree more BUT this situation is ENTIRELY of their own making. Let them sort it out. The corporate pay rise is part of the reason why the company is in such a mess. Remember when is comes to pay they say we are corporate and when it comes to benefits they say work for different airlines on different contracts. What a mess!

[Yarpy]

I work with one of the country's leading legal pensions practices and noticed an item on today's electronic bulletin from a reference service widely used in the profession featuring the proposed increase in pension contributions for BMI Mainline pilots. I can say that everyone in my department who saw the item was astounded by the reported proposal by the company to increase contributions from 10% to 18% plus.
*********, I take it that this proposal is for the Company to increase it contributions? I have heard that the pension fund is in deficit and assume that this increase in contributions is a regulatory requirement to make up the shortfall.
Could you clarify the situation?
Thanks, Yarpy

[lexxity]

Sorry to go back to him, but Vol7 do you really think working to rule and no discretion is not actually more annoying for the staff on the ground? At least with a full scale down tools you know there are no flights and not just some here and none there.

On another tack, Mr Lexx is a bmi frequent flier and he was shocked when he heard about the extra pention contributions and higher tax code on flight pay, he gives his full support, as do I. (Mr L is an accountant btw.)

[mccdatabase]

I believe an undertaking that the pension fund contribution would decrease again "when" the deficit has been cleared has been given, the company is making up 2/3 of the deficit, with increased member contributions making up for the other 1/3, remember that the contribution increase of 18% plus is for pilots who want to retire at 55,and there will be a 40% tax allowance to deduct from that increase, you can pay less of an increase and work a bit longer if you like, and spare a thought for the non flying staff who must work until 65 and whose contributions have gone up from around 6.2% to 11.5% from a much lower salary level and for a 1/60th accrual rate(unless you are willing to have a lower accrual rate -1/80ths- and a max 2.5% growth rate if you freeze your fund or retire!!) I believe it is time for a reality check with regard to the pension fund, it is still worth having (dont forget the death in service benefits and widows pension that goes with the package) and whilst the management of many issues has been woeful the pension issue is not of their making entirely, there has been a distinct lack of information from the trustees who have not verified the companys calculations with regard to deficit and I would be interested in knowing how much AON :mad: consulting creams from the fund for their fee, remember if you lose or pull out of the final salary scheme you will not (unless extreme luck is on your side !) get into another one, ask any independent financial consultant or expert how much value they put on being in a final salary scheme these days, you might well get a surprise, we will all retire someday and it will be too late to have regrets by then!!:eek: , a little (lot ?) of pain now may be worth it in the longer term, at least they have offered us all 4 different options( 1/ higher contributions with no loss of accrual or benefits /growth,,or 2/ no increase in contributions but a lower accrual and max 2.5% growth, or 3/ a combination of option 1 & 2 ie for pilots a 2% increase in contribution and change of accrual rate from 1/50 to 1/60 per year served, or 4/ leave the scheme freezing your fund with no loss of accrued pension Each individual can choose for any of these options so it is not just a take it or leave it situation , I think it is hard to see what else they could do to keep the final salary scheme alive (and it IS WORTH keeping alive!!) HOWEVER the pay issue is an entirely different matter and enforced awards with no negotiation or consultation is never the way to get the workforce on side, I fear that this time Nige and Co are about to learn the important lesson that even the most dedicated and long suffering members of staff will say ENOUGH !! if they continue to have the urine extracted from them in this manner:ugh:

I will now stand back and await the inevitable panning from the angry mob:=

[expelair]

Good luck guys and dolls do the right thing I just wish that all the unions could get together and hammer out the problem with bmi management sorry MISS management. All the other departments are behind you 100%.

I find some of the outside comments disturbing no one wants to put the airline in jeopardy we just want what’s fair in an industry that has been ravaged over the last few years, Sept 11th ,fuel surcharges, landing fees, tax and insurance to name but a few and this is being used against us.

Some very bad decisions have been made in the past few years I wish they would just admit it put things right get the staff behind them again and move on.

I remember a blanket pay rise for everyone back around the early 90’s that was a great boost to moral after another difficult lean period in aviation.

[Hirsutesme]

I dont see why you should get a panning, I thought you expressed the situation pretty well.
What with bmi, BA, BA Con and flybe all boiling up (plus Ryanair?) I reckon we're in for an autumn hotter than the summer!

[ASBY]

Guys,

Whilst theres much talk about mainline and Baby, I'd like to point out that the regional pilots are right behind you :ok:

The regional bosses have been equally dismissive of BMI regional pilot's requests of merely discussing a settlement, let alone negotiating one. We are being ignored and treated like children.

Do not underestimate the level of feeling at BMI Regional.

Bring on the ballot!

[Looker]

Having read lexxity's post re VOL7, here's some interesting info;

The ballot paper I received only asked one question - 'are you in favour of industrial action?'

It did not ask me whether I was in favour of industrial action short of strike action. So work to rule etc etc are probably not options that are being considered.

For the benefit of VOL7 - unofficial industrial action such as work to rule, carrying full tanks, refusing discretion leaves individuals open to disciplinary proceedings and possibly being dismissed. This is a serious situation and BALPA are ensuring the pilots remain within the protection of industrial relations statutes.

[Miss Management]

Some good recent posts here, excellent.

Just a thought. I have never seen an airline without pilots, has anyone???

Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it.

Also, why should we be understanding towards the company? We've been here 4 years and conditions have continously worsened. Can't blame JR any more!
What's in it for us? Why talk in September or April? We are here and now. We want what's rightfully ours NOW. Our pay has nothing to do with profit! Our pay - like fuel - like maintenance - like insurance, aircraft leasing, catering, ATC charges, etc... should be part of the expenditure of the business, not profit related.
The company doesn't say to the fueller, well we can't pay you what you want now, maybe later. They can't say that to ATC, maintenance or anyone else indeed - BUT US THE PILOTS. The primadonnas. The expensive bully-able crowd.
When you call an electrician to your house, you pay the going rate. You don't ask him to consider your financial position!
We should equally be paid the going rate right this instance, not 'perhaps' later.
If the company is unable to meet it's expenditure, then unfortunately it has to close. Clear cut and fair. We find other jobs that can and will pay us the going rate.

We don't need this dispute. No one does.
The management are the cause of it and I'm getting tired.

MM:ok:

[densil]

If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
Alternatively, their mistake may lead to the pilots not getting paid at all! hehe

[mccdatabase]

It really depends on your base level salary as to whether you can afford it or not, can you not afford to have a properly funded pension scheme ?, I was certainly not trying to divide and rule , quite the opposite in fact!, I am a firm believer in "combined employee group" negotiations, the one thing that the management would not want would be a united workforce ALL standing firm for the same goal!! I was merely drawing your attention to plight that other employee groups within bmi are in, we are all in the same boat when it comes to the pension, is this ballot for action about the enforced pay award or the increase in pension contributions ?

Miss Management what if an Engineer made the mistake of his/her life? the best they could hope for is a 10 year stretch for manslaughter, so we ALL have an important part to play, Please do not try and give the impression that one group is more special than any other and therefore deserves a greater (in percentage terms ) pay rise. Try not fall into the divide and rule trap, you will only be helping management win with that attitude

[Miss Management]

mccdatabase

I almost completely agree with you.
The odd one out is the engineer of course, as he's doing a front line job too.
Of course his life's mistake could be quite noisy, expensive or even fatal for others. That is why engineers should not be treated like office staff either.
So, pilots and engineers should be regarded as different from the rest.
Look how are management are regarded. They are on a different deal altogether.

The diatribe didn't say that management are also part of this 2.4% lark. Should it have? Should they be also part of "most employee groups that appear to have tacitly accepted the 2.4% award"? If not why not?

Balpa's communication of the 26th July says otherwise. It says that other staff groups are "unhappy about the imposition of the corporate pay award".

Who knows?:D

[ManAtTheBack]

I'd like to ask you a genuine question - WHY are you paying £260 for a flex economy ticket when you have to pay for your own tea and coffee? I don't get it. With the greatest respect why do you not vote with your feet?

I did. Hello BA

[Vol7]

I think Vol got the message,teeth back in at the read guys,right whos next!

I got the message alright
A typicall response it seems "if you don't agree with us your not worth listening to"
-
As for disciplinary action for refusing to sell days off or go into discretion I have never heard such rubbish.
-
Lexx of course this would be a preferred course of action the company would still struggle if crews did this but everyone else would still be in a job, dispatchers wouldn't be sent home, cabin crew would still get sector pay etc etc and the company would still have something they need to address.

[Dr. Spin]

remember that the contribution increase of 18% plus is for pilots who want to retire at 55,
Just to straighten your facts, this only applies to a minority of pilots who joined before the late eighties, for the rest of us it's retirement at 60, with no option to go earlier. I for one have over 20 years left!
HOT OFF THE PRESS
The mainline ballots will go out on the 3rd August and the ballot will last for 3 weeks. Action to be taken within 28 days of closure (but can be extended by mutual consent) With the statutory 7 day notice period of stoppages factored in this means no disruption until 31st August at the earliest. Although remember that any 'baby' action my be slightly earlier as the ballot is already in progress.

[POLICE]

VOL7 - if you don't agree with us your not worth listening to

Having read all these comments above, VOL7 - what on earth are you still doing here. Look it's the week end, you must be off, so go and enjoy it.
Let this problem be sorted by the professional pilots of these airlines. As someone above nearly said what's an anti-pilot doing in aviation in the first place? You do have to question that.

Have a good week end :sad: :eek: :confused: :zzz

[ContIgnt]

Hi All,

I've heard from several people over the past few days that NT has stated he would like to make an example of the bmibaby pilot workforce in order to quash any uprising by mainline or regional. In fact, I heard one person say the NT has stated he would 'let baby fold' rather than give in to demands !

Now, while I believe that this is just the company progaganda machine grinding into action, it begs the question ..... why the hell couldn't BALPA synchronise the ballots for maximum effect ?

All this sitatuion does is to put more pressure on the baby work force ... and the company knows this ... hence the reason the TB also sent a letter to cabin crew effectively telling them that those nasty pilots were putting their jobs at risk !

Also the same reason that command assessments until further notice. This has nothing to do with industrial action (we can barely crew the aircraft we have now) ... its just the divide and conquer tictac again.

BALPA - is there any way that all 3 ballot (baby, mainline and regional) results could be announced at the same time ???????

[Climb Limited]

Vol 7 is right in some respects.

By definition, a work to rule cannot possibly result in a disciplinary. How can it if you haven't broken any rules?

This is all about making the management realise how much this airline, particularly bmibaby relies on 'good will' to muddle on through from one day to the next. Good will is unquantifiable until it is completely taken away.

A strike would certainly demonstrate this and I hole-heartedly support the 'enough is enough' campaign, but I feel that a protracted and less 'gentlemanly' obeyance of the playground rules should not be ruled out.

This is a path that must be followed. Lose this battle and you'll never win another one again.

[flares]

I will say this once and once only............

im very dissapointed in the recent post, havnt read all of it due to i dont tend to read utter rubbish!

some of the posts i did though make me laugh, one in paticular:-

"""Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it."""

Hmm a couple of points, the security staff do not get your wages, way below what you get - they are too equal too your S U P E R I O R role it would seem, oh and for those that dont know they make sure bombs and knives do not go on board YOUR AIRCRAFT!!!

If you do decide to strike the real grafters (the guys that work 15hour shifts boarding OUR flights) to earn a living will be under alot of pressure and strain from pax, i guess you wouldnt understand that side of it - by the way these are the people that pay yours and ours wages!

We are supposed to be a team, pilots (bar a few) think they are better than the rest - WAKE UP BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT !!!

As you can see i am very angry, disturbed and very annoyed! its not like you earn the most operationally or anything is it??!!

If you dont like it BUZZ OFF!!

[Looker]

Various middle managers doing the rounds at several Baby bases today in an attempt to sway the votes of individuals. Stable doors and horses sprang to mind as most pilots will have already returned their ballot papers.

I have some sympathy with these individuals as they are caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to sell the company line dictated from above but having little conviction of believing it themselves.

What was apparent was the first hint of real concern starting to surface - perhaps having been slowly inched to the precipice and seen a glimpse of the abyss below they are not so confident about avoiding the fall.

I would think the pyschological pressure will steadily build as the 3 weeks to the ballot result slowly passes.

[theresalwaysone]

I have just spent ages wading through all this lot. As a senior BMI mailnline pilot(as a senior manger described me recently) I would like to add a few points.

The last well meant but misguided post is one of the reasons we are all experiencing eroded conditions and salaries. Yes, we are all part of a team but the marketplace dictates salaries, as with everything else (have you noticed the price of oill!) If you think security officers are that important, be one,. I thought being a pilot was very important that why i chose to be one!

Unlike many of you I was an airport labourer, i had to work for a few pounds a week and teated like absolute **** but not so i could be an airline pilot and be told that security people are just as important. Of course they are important, so is the lavatory cleaner(and I have done that too) but the king pins in an airline operation are the flight deck crew, thats not an opinion, its an obvious fact, if it isnt lets see Bye and Turner operate a service to Palma because I will gladly do their jobs for half the pay and the difference is i could, maybe not as well, ( and so could any of our pilots.)

That smart Irish pratt said PILOTS ARE THE MOST OVERPAID, OVER COSSETED WORKERS IN THE WORLD. This gives you a clue as to where the rot has crept in--- BUDGET AIRLINES. To operate a budget airline everything needs to be at budget costs but I am not a budget pilot and neither are most of my colleagues. Its about time BALPA actually took a stance on actually being a union and made airlines realise that pilots rank with lawyers and,doctors etc not security officers. It would also be good if BALPA could remind them that Lawyers and Doctors (GPs) dont work much after 5 pm and have weekends off, not too many of them are required to night stop in crap hotels or do a six monthly skills check or meet class one medical standards.Not many doctors and lawyers are forced to retire at 60/65.
And finally not many Doctors and lawyers can kill their clients 100-200 at a time.


Budget airlines have brought about a decline in our working conditions (the fatigue of aircrew documet needs a complete re-write as it was written for BEA DC3 pilots), pay , VALUE and RESPECT. I am all for cheap air travel but i dont notice budget mortgages, wifes or children! I dont want to see pilots subsidising air travel because thats what you are all doing--so get real and stand up for the profession--but please dont strike, only as a last alternative because we are in such a unique position you could in a week ruin what has taken a lifetime to build-- please consider a work to rule first.

[Looker]

Dear Mr Flares,
an interesting first post with many points worthy of discussion - thank you for sharing your concerns.

Firstly. let me say that the pilots have not rushed into this action. We have spent 18 months trying to resolve the situation but have finally come to an impasse because the company will not talk to us in any meaningful way.

Secondly, we are sensitive to the fact that the threat of industrial action brings uncertainty over the future and we hope the impasse with management can be resolved without recourse to strike action. However, it is not an idle gesture and management are becoming aware of our resolve.

I'm sorry that you think that the pilots as a group are not team players. From my experience I would like to think that we offered what support we could when the engineers and ground handlers at EMA were badly treated by the company. Had either of these groups decided to go to industrial action they could have relied on our understanding and support.

Companies by nature are heirarchical, there are people at the top, middle and bottom. Generally speaking pilots are neither at the very top nor at the bottom. Who you are is not defined by the job you do and everyone deserves to be treated with respect whatever their station in life. I'm sorry if your experience with pilots has been less than that.

Lastly, we could all, indeed, buzz off - in fact quite a few have done just that - but some of us prefer to stay and try to improve our situation. Some pilots have invested a good many years in bmi and would like to see a return on their investment.

As I said earlier hopefully the managers will realise our resolve in this dispute and we can resume meaningful talks to avert a strike.

[Prop Freak]

Flight Crew are not the only kingpins of an Airline, anybody who works in an operational section is a kingpin.If the checkin staff don't check in any pax you would not have a reason to fly. If the Engineers don't fix the aircraft you would not have an aircraft to fly etc etc. Even down to the guy who drives the s**t wagon, if he didn't do his job you soon wouldn't have any pax who wanted to fly on your aircraft. Lots of people are kingpins to an airlines operation.

[Caractacus]

I worked as a pilot for Midland at Heathrow for a number of years. With out doubt the airline has a very odd company culture. Aside from the flying, I learned two things about life from working there. First, how to cut costs and second not to trust someone who smiles at you.

The airline has a black monkey sitting on its shoulder. You could cut the atmosphere in the Queens Building with a knife some mornings. This is the place where the Kegworth crew lived. I believe also the Trident Papa India pilots walked out from there.
I would suspect the very senior people in the company (whoever they are) are quite relaxed about the current industrial situation. They have no intention of allowing a strike and every intention of taking the situation to the wire when they will back down.
However, some of the pilots will be far from relaxed and some emotions will run very high. This company invented the term machiavelian. It knows just how to twist, maniplutate, connive and put people under huge pressure. They know the emotional handles to pull to get things done. QED the ploy of removing crewroom furniture. How humiliating can you get? My wife used to debrief me on the days flying. She could tell when the very senior person was adopting a hands on management style.

The oddest thing about Midland is that the culture is also very fickle. I had a family tragedy and, for an airline, they couldn't have been more helpful. When I most needed the pressure to be off it was.

My point is that the pilots can win this situation outright by ignoring the threats, staying calm and going to the wire. Maybe even stepping over it for a day.

I have worked for a number of airlines but Midland made it's mark on me and I was thoroughly glad to leave. However, I doubt you will find a more capable and sharp bunch of aviators in the business.

I wish everyone all the best in these trying times.

[Workingforless]

I have been told that the major issue here is a lingering failure to resolve the 04/05 pay deal....ostensibly because the IR work to their own bureaucratic time scale.

It seems inconceivable to me that the IR can allow an un-level playing field to exist with respect to certain allowances and the tax-benefits allied to them. This is anti-competitive.

Conversely, it seems likely that if such a situation was contested, the company would stand a good chance of winning a case which argued for parity, with, for example, another LOCO airlines recompense paradigm.

Let us assume this to be the case.

I have been told that the cost of underwriting the difference between the old bmibaby allowances scheme and, for example, the Easyjet allowances scheme is ~£500K.

I have also been told that the cost of a one day strike is upwards of £2 million.

It seems to me, then, the way forward is clear.

Every other group in the company has had closure on their 04/05 pay deal except bmibaby pilots. They continue to lose money every day as a result.

The claim that this is about an unwillingness to accept 2.4% for 06/07 is management propaganda.

I trust those of you involved achieve your ambitions.

[ASBY]

At regional the 04 /05 deal was never settled. :ugh:

It was put aside to make way for the 05/06 talks which as you know were sidelined and the 2.4% settlement imposed! :*

Since the indicative ballot management have offered to open talks about 06/07 early. :=

[keepitlit]

No talking just get them to start putting the deals on the table:mad:

Rgds

K.I.L.

Deal or no deal:=

[Looker]

I agree with Caractacus,

this will ultimately come down to brinkmanship but I cannot see SMB standing idly by whilst NT allows Baby to have a CFIT. He's got a lot of dosh tied up in the Midland group and he won't let NT put that in jeopardy. The pilots at KLMC needed to take their company to the edge before they saw any meaningful dialogue - I forsee much the same for us.

Most pilots will probably have voted by now so whilst Donington Hall can go into spin overdrive the lots have already been cast. We just need to remain professional, continue to do our job and carefully weigh all future announcements from management.

[Count von Altibar]

It's all about nerve. I've been in this situation many times before in another airline and the pilots always won out in the end but the management always took it to the eleventh hour. No backing down and they will cave-in. SMB will not let things go to the wall as he's worked too hard to get to where he is today, at his age he will not be into large risk. Keep your nerve people and good luck to the baby pilots as it seems they'll be first to go head to head with NT & Co.

[Dr. Spin]

Just like 'The Count' I've been here before. A little bit of solidarity goes a long way!:ok:

[SOPS]

What is the culture like at BMI? Are Captains God?..or is it relaxed and open..or something in between?...Just interested:)

[SOPS]

Errrr... was a real question

[The Moo]

Pilots at bmi as some of the nicest I've come across , good operators no " god complex" just normal boys/girls giving there all for an employer who is take take take.
The trouble with the bmi management is everyone is expendable pilots are no exception.
Its' always been the company way no matter what department you work in.
Esp with the pilots , "You dont like it leave. Promote rhs to lhs and get a new cheap oxford cadet into the rhs." And there is always a long queue of willing victims.

Moo

[Caractacus]

I concur with 'The Moo'. A fine bunch of pilots and decent folk with it. It is completely bizarre that bmi cannot see the value of this professional capital.

Contrastingly the management are the most penny pinching small minded bunch you could imagine. They deserve absolutley no sympathy and I doubt they will get it.

[upandoffmyside]

bmi mainline strike ballot papers being posted out tomorrow (Thurs 3rd).

bmi mainline covers all the airbus (A319,320,321,330) operation in and out of LHR, and in and out of MAN.

It also includes a lot of charter work being done by airbuses farmed out to the regions this summer for a variety of customers. (ex BHX, EMA, BHD,BFS, GLA,NCL etc).

[Dr. Spin]

The best bit about bmi is the people you work with; the worst bit is the people you work for.

Couldn't agree more!

On an aside, what thoughts does anyone within the company (besides pilots)have of today's memo to all staff by NT?

The bit about risking your overtime/shift pay was a cheap shot, but expected unfortunately. You can expect more of the same propaganda.

If you want the real story, talk to the pilots at work and then decide.

[Dr. Spin]

It also includes a lot of charter work being done by airbuses farmed out to the regions this summer for a variety of customers. (ex BHX, EMA, BHD,BFS, GLA,NCL etc).

That should turn the thumb screws a little, me thinks!:cool:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Before you consider going down that road the prime consideration has to be absolute solidarity and the backing of the union.
Otherwise it is easy for the management to "pick off" one or two of the leaders and subject them to a flawed disciplinary process.
This has a variety of benefits for the management: firstly, if they are sufficiently astute they will select a couple of victims who cannot possibly claim racial or sexual or health and safety in their defence. This limits absolutely the power of the Industrial Tribunal to make an award; in addition, even if the Tribunal orders the company to restore the victims to their jobs and to compensate their losses the law is toothless and the decison is not enforcable if the company decide to decline. Which of course they will.
Secondly, the victim, who is immediately suspended, and thereby isolated from his / her colleagues, can be selected for their role, or perceived role, in leading the dispute, thereby, hacking away at the leadership.
Since they will ultimately move through the disciplinary process, frustrated at every turn it discourages their colleagues, who see this, from "breaking ranks"; finally, when the process is exhausted they find themselves out of a job and the company has rid itself, very cheaply, of 2 or 3 "troublemakers".

So you see, in some cases, the Industrial Tribunal and Disciplinary process is actually just another tool the company can use which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the workforce.
Unite or perish.

[teamax]

From what I see, we are united, and when the rest of the non pilot staff read the recent memo from the CEO, I`m sure they will support us too.
Suddenly the management want to talk to them about 2007 pay. This would not have occured without the current situation, maybe they will decide consultation is a fairer way of treating their employees.
Regards to all the bmi staff on the `coal face`, you make a difference and deserve respect as well.

[keepitlit]

Yeah but What about the 06 pay agreement,it has to be sorted:mad: :mad:

rgds

K.I.L.

[Looker]

Not to mention the 05 pay round at baby.

A rather school boy delaying tactic me thinks.

[theresalwaysone]

Jus been reading these posts and I understand that Captain's are not GODS in BMI, what a pisser Ive been under a serious miss illusion(or is that a Russian aircraft)) for a number of years and now a find out I am not getting a pay rise or the pension I expected I am definitely going on strike now, no but hang on Ive just read that letter from GL that came this morning seems like BALPA, (Budget Airline Pilots Union) are the culprits and are refusing to talk to mananagement, the Barstewards! So its all OK now lads Oh but hang on GL forgot to mention the pension talks, no looks like he forgot to say that BMI forgot to run the new pension plan past BALPA, well its an easy mistake to make isnt it as the deficit was only indentified in May but every other company new about 5 years ago.

Christ and these are the people running an airline!

regards to all Ex-God

[gmidc]

Couldn't agree more!
On an aside, what thoughts does anyone within the company (besides pilots)have of today's memo to all staff by NT?
The bit about risking your overtime/shift pay was a cheap shot, but expected unfortunately. You can expect more of the same propaganda.
If you want the real story, talk to the pilots at work and then decide.
Well don't know if anyone else saw the other bit of 'news' today, but more job losses have been announced......

[Count von Altibar]

Oh dear, the management seem to be starting the propaganda machine already judging the letter that dropped on the mat this morning. Get ready for the tales & spin of how honest & willing they've been recently to discuss things with our BALPA representitives. How nasty & unwilling the BALPA CC have been. Don't fall for it people, this is standard practice for any company facing looming industrial action. How come they're suddenly so willing to negotiate? Well the answer will be in the forthcoming ballot!

Regards, The Count

[lexxity]

Which department now GMIDC?

[Leezyjet]

The trouble with the bmi management is everyone is expendable pilots are no exception.
Its' always been the company way no matter what department you work in.
Esp with the pilots , "You dont like it leave. Promote rhs to lhs and get a new cheap oxford cadet into the rhs." And there is always a long queue of willing victims.

Thats exactly why I left. I was sick of being told by management, "if you don't like it, then leave. There is a queue of people at Tescos that would gladly take your job". Eventually I did. Went elsewhere for a £5k payrise for doing less work, and better benefits too !!.

What they fail to realise is that those people at Tesco's are actually being paid MORE than what we were getting on the ground, without all the hassle of dealing with Mr Jumped Up Businessman who had just missed his flight.

There are some great people working at Bmi, and it amazes me how the company has survived this long, as it is run purely on good will in ALL areas.

I've not looked back since I left.

:hmm:

[flyingfrog]

Which department now GMIDC?

Ground Ops, due to the new crewing system that has been installed it's been decided that baby should support itself rather than relying on Big Bro.

17 new positions at baby, 23 to go from bmi = 6 redundancies. :{

baby leaving home will allow ops to concerntrate more on mainline and LH.

Makes you wonder, who's next!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Flying Frog

I understand that the new Crewing system is not yet doing as BMI want, auto roster for one. How anyone would believe it would auto roster from day 1 i dont know :\

[Looker]

2 lovely pieces of propaganda from TB and CR via e-mail,

apparently having done the round of crew rooms they are able to conclude that;

imposing the 2.4% pay rise this year was doing us a favour as it got the money in our hand that much earlier. :yuk:

the problems with the IR over sector pay is only costing us 36p a day :yuk:

the FOs should not think about the future, you're lucky to be here at all :yuk:

we're only doing this out of spite, to give the management a bloody nose :yuk:

We are doing this because you chose to ignore our warnings and your blunder has cost us £2000, we're doing this because you think it is acceptable to unilaterally change our terms and conditions, we're doing this because we're fed up of being treated as an irrelevance :ugh:

[keepitlit]

No roster system would work no matter how good it,there isnt enough crew for it to do its job properly
Now the crewing line now has an option to sell days off!:D :D

Rgds


K.I.L.:D

[captbirdseye]

K.I.L.
I presume you mean that the willing to sell line is a good thing to avoid the unnecesary calls to crew who do not want to be bothered on days off.

[Count von Altibar]

Nobody should be selling days off at this time as the pilots at the bmi group are in official dispute with the company. Anyone who does is letting down their colleagues hugely and it doesn't go unnoticed as to who the culprits are. I just received an excellent letter today via email from Jim McAuslan. Hopefully the bmi senior management will realize the severity of their current stance. A strong 'YES' vote is now a necessity to take this forward and send a message to Donnington Hall. The pilots demands are not unreasonable and NT and friends should take note...

[Climb Limited]

I remember the Company's refusal to even meet with Big Jim (BALPA General Sec) despite his drive up to the Hall in 05. What goes around comes around - I say this in a non-spiteful way. When will NT and the others realise that the most valuable (and expensive) resource in an airline which after all is a SERVICE industry are the people that work for it. STOP abusing, start managing, demonstrate some leadership and get the factory floor to work for and not in spite of. Non of this is rocket science. Why not build in a fixed rate pay-rise say for a period of 3 years and then build that into the Long Term costings? This annual agro would just go away and then the airline could concentrate on seeing further into the future than lunch-time.:ugh:

[captbirdseye]

Anyone who does is letting down their colleagues hugely and it doesn't go unnoticed as to who the culprits are
Now Now Count would that be bullying tactics.
After reading all the previous drivvle that some of the pilots have to say I thought you were against that kind of behaviour.
Or is it "do as we say not as we do".

[AIMS2please]

I would much appreciate those of you who do not support the withdrawal of labour from bmi regional letting us know as soon as possible in order that we can plan for the strike and at least try to limit the disruption to our very hard won customers.

Very best regards,
Bill.

Bill Hanton
Flight Operations Director
Bmi regional.


Would all idiots please take one step forward.

[GreatCircle]

Best of luck from the Great White North to BMI staff who are suffering with clueless management.

We'd heard over here on the Pond's west-side about the infamous insulting of the BALPA rep, being turned away at Donington. A telling indictment on management disregard for the situation brewing in front of their eyes.

I heard a story, from a BMI Driver, in the early 90s, when the F100s were just introduced, Bishop stopped a meeting of his management to watch it climb away...

Tells me one of 2 things - Bishop is either an arrogant nutjob, or he had a passion for aviation which he has managed to lose, and piss off customers and staff alike,whilst stuffing his ample pockets full of fresh bank notes.

Tragic. What a shift from award-winning sparkling diamond service to fake shimmering diamante, no fault of those on the front-lines, needless to say.

[Dr. Spin]

What a shift from award-winning sparkling diamond service to fake shimmering diamante.

The 'New Business Model' (NBM) has been universally dubbed as 'Nigel's Big Mistake' within the company. It was an ill-conceived idea at a time when knee jerk reactions were the order of the day. An initial improvement in the bottom line was more as a result of reduced overheads than increased revenue. But penny-pinching and loosing track of the big picture is a recurring theme these days, or is it just fattening up the calf to be sold off to the highest bidder?

A vast amount of business traffic have voted with their feet as a result, but BA aren't complaining boasting something like a 15% improvement in that department!

It is usually ill advised to look backwards rather the forwards, but only now can we see how good the 'Diamond Service' really was, and I for one really miss that scone and clotted cream! :)

[Yellow Sun]

Nobody should be selling days off at this time as the pilots at the bmi group are in official dispute with the company. Anyone who does is letting down their colleagues hugely and it doesn't go unnoticed as to who the culprits are.

OK Count, I'll go along with you in principle, but I do have sympathy with those who feel a bit vulnerable at present and see selling as an opportunity to put a bit more of the company's money in their pocket in case they find their pay packets reduced by their support for industrial action. There's still the mortgage to pay and new shoes to buy for the kids. There are of course the habitual sellers, it's their right to sell after all, but they may wish to consider whether their actions are warranted in the present circumstances.

YS

[Dr. Spin]

There are of course the habitual sellers, it's their right to sell after all, but they may wish to consider whether their actions are warranted in the present circumstances.
YS

I'm sure that the 'habitual sellers' have never realised either that the are doing people out of jobs, commands and a more stable roster due to incorrect crewing ratios!

If you have to rely on selling days to make ends meet then it really is a sorry state of affairs! :=

[Max Angle]

I'm sure that the 'habitual sellers' have never realised either that the are doing people out of jobs, commands and a more stable roster due to incorrect crewing ratios!Actually I think most of the habitual sellers realise it only too well and don't give a monkeys. The way things are at the moment aircraft would be parked up but for people selling days and whole weeks of leave, as you say it's a sorry state for a company to be in caused by sorry management.

[keepitlit]

Captainbordseye,
My statement was only to point that yet again the Company has tried to have magic performed from another rostering system (Number 3) only to find that it doesn’t work unless they have enough crew to start with.
Its been a while since I think they’ve done anything good!:ugh: :ugh:

Rgds

K.I.L.

[Looker]

Some more interesting thoughts from our beloved leaders

I do not believe that any First Officer can possibly feel sufficiently aggrieved to vote for strike action. I am concerned that you might fall prey to the wishes of the broader pilot community to give the management a bloody nose. Be aware that many of those who might be pressing you vote yes have grievances which stretch back a long way before your time.

Whilst the sector pay fiasco has impinged less on the FOs than Captains due to the lesser amount of sector pay they receive it would be fair to say that most FOs aspire to the LHS and as such they have a vested interest in ensuring that their future terms and conditions are protected. Contrary to what TB asserts by my calculations FOs are worse off to the tune of £1372 pa net, assuming the IR edicts are implemented. The Company has given no guarantee to continue underwriting sector pay beyond this year

Finally, if the majority vote is yes a strike is inevitable, there is no more this year. Therefore I would appreciate those who do not support the withdrawal of labour let us know as soon as possible so that we can plan for the strike and at least limit the disruption to our hard won customers.

I'm sure that a more in depth search for the necessary funds will produce a positive result after the ballot result is known.

Non BALPA members could be in a potentially difficult position if a strike is called. I'm sure many would be reticent to break ranks and report for work yet they will not have the protection union membership affords if they don't report - time to join up guys?

[theresalwaysone]

Time to join up guys?--no not really, time to decide whether you want to cripple the airline. The reason that BMI is still with us is because the Bishop style of management has been concise and reactive without delay. Remember the 1-11s, remember London City?

Bishop is at the age were he dosnt need to work anymore, so think long and hard before you re-act to short term stupidity. He could sell the slots and walk away-- how are you fixed?

[Caractacus]

He could sell the slots and walk away-- how are you fixed?
Yes, there is always a veiled threat in the background. A powerful motivator???
I doubt if the owners could stand the ignomy of selling up due to an industrial dispute. They would be laughed out of the business.

[moist]

theresalwaysone

C172Navigator

You two above.
Just imagine if the whole world would be made up of people with the opinions you two seem to possess.
Where on earth (or in the sky) would we all really be?:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[DH121]

C172 Navigator - I don't work for BMI, but I'm following this with interest. I'm really concerned that if your viewpoint were to prevail, you'll be looking at an ever-degrading set of terms and conditions. You need to have a long hard think about your position, IMHO.

[Workingforless]

What is wrong with selling a day off? I have done this, and will continue to do so - I appreciate the extra money. We live in a free country and shouldn't fall out just because one person chooses to do some over-time and another does not.

Your justification seems a little flimsy.

We'd all like the additional money.

Its not hard to evolve an argument (done many times before) as to why this is strategically a bad thing to do. But then your post betrays a lack of strategic thinking IMHO.

Most of us do it because we're feathering our own nest. Lets not kid ourselves here.

This whole Balpa thing is getting out of control, seems to me the objective now is to strike and cause the company harm, not achieve better conditions for Balpa members (and non members, like myself). These bull-boy tactics of Balpa and some of my militant colleagues is the main reason I dislike unions and the whole idea of a strike - why can't people see the harm it will cause. You complain about money/pensions/rostering (depending on the part of bmi you work in) but whatever the problems how can a strike achieve anything other than problems for the company and maybe cost us our jobs? I have bills to pay, a women to keep and a desire to further my career - sending bmi under through industrial action is short-sighted and wrong.

I presume you are a pilot, who like me, has invested, perhaps, six figures in your training and acquisition of a license?

The argument that anyone with this kind of vested financial interest in job security, would gamely plough towards a course of action which would jeopardise this, is hard to fathom.

Maybe its you who is not thinking hard enough about the strategic consequences of your actions?

Which of the unions demands is unreasonable?

As I understand, to those aspiring to LHS occupancy, the bmibaby management suggest reading "The Southwest Airlines Way"!

The irony.

No Herb Kelleher here - relational competency? Where?

Four MD's in four years? Room for cynicism?

Has MOL and his LOCO cohorts got one over this industry? We're working for >10% less in real terms than four years ago.

Who is subsidising who?

Is the greed at the bottom of the institutional ladder or the top?

Are you so sure the wool hasn't been pulled over your eyes?

A vote in favour of industrial action is hardly the same thing as industrial action.

What is the budgeted top line for 06/07 anyway? What about the bottom line?

Is there a war-chest for A330 purchases if the Transatlantic market de-regulates? How much is the sale of one LHR slot worth?

Where is SMB on the rich list this year?

So many unknowns....

[captbirdseye]

I'm sure that a more in depth search for the necessary funds will produce a positive result after the ballot result is known.


For gods Sake People
When will you lot realise there is no Money in the pot.
You all seem to think the group is lying and hiding vast sums of profit (there isn't any at the moment, and if you have your way there won't be any in the future either)
The strike will not acheive what you want it to, although I think you are all losing sight of what your objectives were in the first place.
-
Your actions will only jeopardise everybody elses future, if your not happy just does all a favour and leave.

[upandoffmyside]

The main issue in bmi mainline is clear.

An agreement in late 2004 was accepted by bmi pilots and bmi management following a protracted series of negotiations, pilot meetings and ballots throughout that year.

This agreement covered three years - 2004, 2005 and 2006.

The most important part of it and the golden carrot to bmi mainline pilots was the 2006 element.

That said that a survey by independent consultants would look at bmi mainline pilot packages in their entirety and compare them with what other airlines were giving their pilots.

A very important part of that agreement was that data relating to BA and Virgin pilot packages would not be excluded from this exercise. Up to this time bmi management had always dismissed claims for any comparision of bmi mainline pilots terms to those of the main competitor airlines at LHR.

That survey took place in 2005 and negotiations were then meant to commence for the 2006 pay award based on the survey data.

bmi management then decided earlier this year to ditch the whole agreement and imposed the corporate pay award on the pilots and said that that was the end of it. No negotiations, survey binned , the end, we're not talking about it.

So basically the signatures of the bmi Personel Director and Flight Ops Director that appear on the agreement documents from 2004 are completely and utterly worthless.

All the negotiations in 2004 were a complete waste of time and we have been strung along by bmi management for the last two and a half years.

How they can expect us to to be taken in by their current promise of talking about 2007 to solve this defies belief.

How can we ever trust a written binding agreement signed by the same company directors again ?


As someone has already said, Midland management must have invented the term "Machiavellian" and for now this is what the "m" in bmi will always stand for with the present set of management.

None of us want to be in the position that we are in now - but bmi management through their own actions haven't left us with many choices.

[Fool's Hole]

captbirdseye -

You are wrong and judging by 99% of entries on this thread, you are in opposition to the vast majority.
I suggest that you leave, as your future may be jeopardised if you stay.
Just imagine that there'll be a huge majority of YES votes. What are you going to do? Go to work? Don't make me lough.:{

[captbirdseye]

Foolshole I am not wrong, although yes I do seem to disagree with the majority posting in PPRUNE on this topic
-
But let me assure you I am not in the minority overall, I think that you will be very surprised, the bombastic approach BALPA have undertaken is probably doing them more harm than good.
And let me assure there is no backing from Cabin Crew , Ground Staff, ops, Crewing, engineering etc etc who all also have an important role in the company.
-
We shall wait and see I just hope that common sense prevails and we do not cut our noses to spite our face.

[Looker]

There will always be a minority of people who are willing to live off the efforts of others. To date I don't know of any non BALPA members whose principles are such that they refuse / donate to charity any pay increase earned by the efforts BALPA.

This is just a fact of life and I don't lose any sleep over it, however it is hardly a stance to shout about.

[Count von Altibar]

I don't think anyone ignoring an industrial dispute will be viewed in a warm and friendly manner. If they choose to go to work then that's their option, but like I said before about working days off, it doesn't go unnoticed. You will be ignoring the vast majority of your colleagues and basically crapping on the pilot profession as a whole. Quite frankly, it's dispicable. You obviously don't understand the process that is required to improve the way we as pilots are treated by the management.

[Banzai Eagle]

Captbirdseye

The issue is that Pilots know if they go on strike and the Company folds then they will get other jobs, albeit probably on less money, not where they want to be, and working harder (except baby crews).
From what i've seen of mainline bmi rosters they are fairly cushy (compared to low cost, charter, freight, BA etc).

Everyone else is in fear of loosing their jobs, not how much payrise they did / did not get. The public support will be thin on the ground when as the BBC Midlands state, Pilots "go on strike over low pay". Yeah right.

Or if the Company gives the Pilots a nice payrise they will take it back from somewhere else, lay off loads of Staff in the Hall or outsource something else.

At the end of the day you guys have a choice, move on the grass is always green.

[PAXboy]

Dr. SpinBut penny-pinching and loosing track of the big picture is a recurring theme these days, or is it just fattening up the calf to be sold off to the highest bidder? It is no comfort but - every companyis doing the same, irrespective of what line of business they are in.

As to think that Bishop will sell off and walk away? I do not see that happening. There have been countless well documented times when he could have done that in the last 20 years and he never has. I expect that he will die whilst in the chair at the head of the table, or he will go down with the ship.

[nitefiter]

Sabena, springs to mind.

[one four sick]

birdseye:

But let me assure you I am not in the minority overall, I think that you will be very surprised, the bombastic approach BALPA have undertaken is probably doing them more harm than good.


You have got this awfully wrong mate. I am Balpa.
Nothing can do me more harm than a management that isn't managing to manage!:= := :=

[bundybear]

Firstly, I dont work for BMI, but am as concerned about the gradual deterioration of pilot T and C's across the industry as the next person.
IMHO, it is the likes of C172Navigator, who fuel management fires.
Do you think you will get a medal? Promotion? All you will do is show management you know how to grab your ankles. I am assuming you work for BMI R, do you really think Uncle B will remember your dedication in a years time? NO! You will still get a forced base change, etc, when it suits him.
Make as much money as you can, because if you get a reputation as an individual who will compromise all of his peers for his own myopic agenda, I dont think you will be swimming in job offers.
Are you suggesting it will be like the miners strike - oil barrels at the crew room door and flight crew chanting "Scab"?
Its a small industry, chanting is not normally necessary.:yuk:

[Roman]

Bundyboy, I know you don't work for BMI, but that sounded like a threat to me, as have a few previous posts. And you want pilots to be treated as professionals...?

[Dr. Spin]

What is wrong with going to work if a strike goes ahead and you don't agree with it? I have no problem doing that. .... If you choose to strike then fine, that is your choice, if I choose to work, then that is my choice, and should be respected.

And I’m sure that you would also be willing to forego any improvements in you salary, terms and conditions, and pension when a favourable outcome is reached since you are obviously happy with all three. :hmm:

Your are probably laughing down your sleeve by saving your 1% BALPA subscription, and will just quietly accept any ill got gains.

It is a very narrow-minded and selfish attitude, and a little immature to think that no one will ultimately care.

Just a little advice. I would keep your opinions to yourself at work lest you wish to reap the onslaught, at a detriment to CRM. :oh:

There is no 'I' in 'Team' and you don't sound like the team player anyway. I hope all goes well with your Thompsonfly application! :E

[keepitlit]

here here,
all for one

rgds

K.I.L.

[brownbox]

Guys and girls

Have been following this thread for a wee while and have to confess that BMI was always a company I thought I would like to work for. Always in these situations a fine line has to be trodden and nobody wants to lose face. Compromise is always an option but absolutely needs to happen on BOTH sides. Having experienced extreme management myopia in the past I understand fully where a lot of you guys and girls are coming from. I am amazed that BALPA can't sort this AND the M @ donnignton won't meet with BALPA.

I know enough is enough but I don't think that pilots want a gold rush. I am sure that if the M was up front people would appreciate current market contraints and rough it a bit. However the M has been taking the proverbial here by being lax - now in stage of incipient strike . I see it every day in the NHS - very professional people doing v. important jobs seeing their T&Cs eroded bit by bit. Sad thing is, the whole service is now so disjointed that no solidarity or mutual respect exists now between professional groups. The M now can do whatever they please with full confidence that a backlash if any will be quelled quickly or have a miniscule effect. And you know what those who gripe are told by their colleagues - 'If you don't like it, then leave'. NHS continues to run on goodwill - but mark my words - not for much longer!

Any action has a profound effect on both businees and customer (in this case the PAX). Management continue to tell us how proactive and forward thinking they are but continually get it wrong. It seems that once again accountancy prevails and the head numbercruncher forgot to crate a 2010 tab on his excel spreadsheet.

Just a pity they didn't have a management simulator to run this scenario on.

I would love the oppertunity to drive the A320 but in the same breath you have to think of your future and everyone wants to be in a company that is a TEAM. Seems that Nigel thinks there's no I in team but there is a ME. Needs to do a bit of CRM.

Solidarity is everything here. If the team is dissolved even partly no real power can exist. I would be surprised even if young FO's didn't share this it is their future that is at stake as well regardless of what water has went under the bridge in the past. Management should realise that negotiation with its professionals is the ONLY way forward for the company's long term future. If action is not taken soon deep resentment will prevail and this will be damaging to BMI and I don't think anyone on this thread wants that.

Wish you guys & girls the best of luck.

[bundybear]

Roman, threat? Not at all, I haven't the energy or inclination. Just an observation based on my own experience.
Does C172 know that TFLY is VERY much a BALPA pilot group?

Good luck chaps!

[The real JR]

Except as a tool to hit the company harder, I've never been in favour of any joint action with bmi and regional.

For Ts and Cs, the three groups are considered as separate, and no comparisons are allowed in negotiation, but for the across the board rise of 2.4% we are suddenly all of one company.

For all but the most senior bmi pilots, there is an incremental rise year on year too, so their rise is greater. Most are still in the final salary pension scheme, and even those who are not, enjoy better pension conditions than bmibaby.

When Tony Davis stood before the EMA bmi pilots and attempted to bribe us over to baby, he put the very tax advantageous sector payments on the table as the alternative to increments. He described it as a 'productivity' bonus, and at no time was any time limit on it mentioned.

The nub of bmibaby pilots' dispute is that some three years on, against the wishes and advice of BALPA, management imposed the 2.4% rise and applied it to the sector pay also, having left that element alone up until then. This would, of course require the revenue's approval, which was not forthcoming. Tax relief was cut. At a stroke bmibaby pilots are out of pocket. TB admitted a ‘tactical error’ but the company refuse to pay for it.

Bmibaby pilots are the only worker group within the bmi empire to actually suffer a pay cut. That is actually earning less in real £s than last year.

A ‘Yes’ vote does not mean, as CR would have you believe, an inevitable strike. It means that management will be forced to square up to the issue and at least talk. Who knows, we might also find out what actually went on between them and the IR over the setting up, and demise of our tax-free sector pay element.

Put simply – I will not accept a pay cut. End

[TRISTAR1]

May I ask a question.

Who is Tony Davis (BM)?

The reason I ask is that I have the same name. (Help!!)

[upandoffmyside]

Don't worry - he was the first MD of bmibaby.

As is common with bmi managers, he wasn't there very long and was last seen in Singapore running another low cost outfit.

baby have had three MDs since 2002.

[TimV]

Folks,

As I posted early on in this thread I'm a big fan or your crews and planes. I've been following the discussion with interest and have been wondering how (as a pax) I can help in any way. Booking my regular flights between LHR and EDI with another airline just didn't seem right so I hope to be sitting behind happier flight crew in the near future; and I'd like it to be the same ones that have been impressing me over the last couple of years, not new recruits drafted in in a panic by bmi management. That would make me switch.

Again, wishing you all the best of luck for a positive outcome.

[Dr. Spin]

not new recruits drafted in in a panic by bmi management.

TimV, that simply will not happen, unless it is a prolonged stoppage. By prolonged I mean several weeks. To comply with the air operators certificate (AOC) any new recruits, even if they are experienced operators, will have to undergo a minimum syllabus of a sim check in accordance with the bmi standard operating procedures (SOP's) and line training (usually 20 flights) and a final line check (a minimum of 2 sectors, usually 4). This will take time to arrange and given that a high percentage of the 'training section' are also BALPA members they will be low on resources to do so.

The other option is to hire in a third party operator to cover flights but this is a) extremely expensive and b) not many third party operators would be willing to do so, especially if they have union recognition.

It is very difficult to get aircraft airborne with no one in the flight deck! :ok:

My ballot arrived in the post this morning, I've given my support in the appropriate box, and it has already been posted back.

The best way to avoid any stoppage is to give maximum support to your union IN FAVOUR of strike action and get everyone back to the table.

[TimV]

TimV, that simply will not happen, .

I'm glad to read that! :ok:

Plus the ignition keys for the A320s could always go missing too ;)

BTW I'm learning a lot about the industry with this - thank you.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

So many complaints from prima donna flyboys!

What about the management, they have their concerns too?

If the Pilot's continue to agitate this could mean management having to contribute more too their pensions,losing their well earned bonuses, having to put up with only 2.4% salary increases, downsizing company cars,working weekends and maybe even having to adopt a whole new mindset, thinking positively instead of negatively.:ouch:

Time to follow Management's lead and think of others!

[Midland 331]

"two penn'orth"...

Despite my screen moniker, I don't work for them anymore, but have roots in the company going back to 1965.

Basically, nothing changes. How has the organisation kept its "unique cultural flavour" for over forty years? There is a PhD thesis to be had here.

Twenty-five years ago, they were a LCC before their time:- sharp with cost control, macho with HR issues, commercially innovative and "buccaneering" but with an unhealthy tendency to lean on crews to "keep the show on the road". And so it continues.

All the very best to all who stand up to the "regime", but don't make the mistake of thinking Sir Michael is more concerned with the opera and his non-exec postions and will not play tough.

331

[Caractacus]

with an unhealthy tendency to lean on crews to "keep the show on the road"

I am well au fait with that one "331". The smoke, mirrors and revenge culture is the key issue with bmi. They have manipulation and spin down to a fine art. I sometimes wonder if Tony Blair went to Donington Hall for a bit of mentoring.

[oscarh]

Be a gentleman and delete your last post Midland 331.

[OzzieO]

and it was 1989 not 1988.

[Midland 331]

oscarh,

Done.

Apologies if it caused offence.

331

[Best foot forward]

Heard a rumour that the bmi baby ballot has been counted, if true good luck.

[Gary Lager]

Ballot not closed until Wednesday 16th.

[ScotPilot]

bmi baby - 16th August
bmi regional and mainline 24th August

[Count von Altibar]

The bmi board thought the price of oil was reason enough for an imposed 2.4% petty pay rise. Oh dear! Now all three components are about to throw their collective toys well out of the cot! My heart bleeds for you Nigel & Tim! Reap what you sow Gentlemen...

[alterego]

The Ops Director at Baby is targeting F/Os with E-mails about the vote
stating that the comapny are taking a personal interst in their career's and that he knows who is the union and therefore has a ballot!

There are also several rumours (unconfirmed to me)that he has personally phoned ceratin F/Os and urged them to vote No.

[Count von Altibar]

Sounds like interference by management in union affairs coupled with a veiled attempt at intimidation! Why can't they just let the pilots make-up their own mind without leaning on them. I notice it's the generally younger F/Os that get targeted, I wonder why?

[Chalky]

The Ops Director at Baby is targeting F/Os with E-mails about the vote
stating that the comapny are taking a personal interst in their career's and that he knows who is the union and therefore has a ballot!
There are also several rumours (unconfirmed to me)that he has personally phoned ceratin F/Os and urged them to vote No.
Strange, isn't it, that you never see an "Investing in People" logo anywhere in connection with bmi.....:hmm: :cool:

[Doors to Automatic]

Strange, isn't it, that you never see an "Investing in People" logo anywhere in connection with bmi.....:hmm: :cool:

They couldn't care less about people - I'm amazed they are still in business tbh

[keepitlit]

What Career :mad:,midland use to be a career airline but im sorry to say now it has become just a job and it seems to be the same in all three groups.

Sounds to me that they are pretty desperate to stup to those levels so early on.:= :=


rgds

K.I.L.:ok:

[Doug E Style]

GB Airways have an ad in this week's Flight for F/Os which seems to be aimed at those with a "lack of development opportunities". Who do you think they might mean???

[Sleeve Wing]

GB Airways have an ad in this week's Flight for F/Os which seems to be aimed at those with a "lack of development opportunities". Who do you think they might mean???

If Slippery Bill's still there, frying pan and fire immediately spring to mind !!
Tough to be a new F/O at bmi at the moment though.

"Keep attacking "..... !!!!!!!!!

[ajamieson]

Pilots at no frills airline bmi baby have voted to go on strike in a row over pay, their union Balpa announced today.
end
Good luck :)

[sjm]

93% return 73% vote yes!

[Hudson Bay]

So whats with the bmi statement on the web site? Clear cut. We are on strike. No debate. Very shocked at T.B. style of intimidation.

[DRJ]

BALPA/bmibaby

release date: 16/08/2006

bmibaby has today been advised by BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association) that 90 of bmibaby’s 189 pilot workforce have voted in favour of strike action. This represents 47% of the total bmibaby pilot workforce.

Given that less than 50% of bmibaby’s pilots voted for a strike we welcome BALPA’s decision not to proceed with one. BALPA have requested a meeting with us to attempt to find a way through the dispute and we are reflecting on that proposal.

bmibaby’s offer of negotiations for a multi year pay deal for 2007 onwards remains on the table and we remain hopeful that any industrial action can be avoided.

Customers are advised to make no changes to their travel plans. bmibaby have contingency plans in place to deal with any operational disruption and will keep customers advised of current information via its website, www.bmibaby.com.

ends

Hardly a landslide majority !

Watch this space ....
Lets hope common sense prevails !

[Gary Lager]

Sadly not much chance of that from either management or the militant 'minority'.

What is that thing about an irresistable force and an immovable object?

There's a Bay City Rollers song which springs to mind...

[AVIONIQUE]

So is it 47% or 73% ? or should we split the difference?:confused:

[Tisme]

My words were I wonder if the percentages on here would be different to what we were told. And i was correct :E

[mccdatabase]

Surely if less than 50% of (the total) pilot workforce has voted to strike, it means that no stoppages will take place unless they are unofficial actions not sanctioned by BALPA, in which case the people who do withdraw their labour could find themselves in breach of contract and open to repercussions from the company:eek: ,

[BigRab]

Unless one has the guts to stand up to the likes of BMI management, our T&C's throughtout the industry will continue to be eroded.
Thankfully I do not work there, never cared for the meanminded mentality, however it is in everyones interest that the pilots at BMI get fairly treated to prevent the downward spiral that Ryanair has much to blame for.
This is not a time for sitting back on the fence and hoping the problem will go away.
The best way to avoid a strike is for all pilots to join their collegues in balpa and force management to take them seriously, rather than sitting back and undermining their efforts; whilst at the same time hoping to share in the rewards that their action may bing.
Sometimes you get the management you deserve! United you have a chance, divided you will fail.
It is about time that management learnt that pilots have had enougth of being asked to pay for their mistake of flooding the market with too much product which has been devalued by too low prices.
This madness of give away flights has got to stop. If the managements won't do it the TAX man will, and the customers will pay.
Stop subsidising them.

[one four sick]

The tight idiots who haven't joined balpa have jeopardised any kind of progress in our terms and conditions. Those that have and voted no, will need their heads examined.
From here it's up to each individual to vote with their feet and get the hell out.

Those who have not joined up for the dispute are thankfully also about to suffer what this "management" are about to conjure up for the bleak future, except those that don't care in any case, since their plan is to leave anyway after 500 hours on type.

In any case the profession is now worse off as a whole, as a result of a number of gullible muppets! :\ :\ :\

[Gary Lager]

BigRab,

Thankfully I do not work there

Kind of makes your call to arms sound a little hollow then, doesn't it?

Fancy donating a day's pay to the wives and families of those who you so outspokenly support?

[Best foot forward]

One four sick

Thats a problem with a airlines like bmi baby, people don't join them for a career and only see them as a stepping stone. Thinking that they will only be there for three years at the most and then on to something bigger and better. I didn't realise that the % of balpa members was so low. Makes you think that if there was a strike the non balpa members would have kept the airline going for quite a while on a reduced schedule which could have turned into a disaster for thjose that did strike. Makes me think that balpa got it wrong and a strike ballot should never have been called. If you can't get at least 80-90% membership then your a bit Heather McCartney.

Gary Lager

I don't work for bmi either nor am I a balpa member but I would be more than happy to help a fellow colleague out in this type of situation, have done so in the past. Imagine if, we as an industry, could build up a fund to use in these situations, when friends and colleagues are being mistreated, would make the managements sit up and think a bit harder.:ok:

[Gary Lager]

BFF - That would indeed be a very noble and respectable thing to do, I would admire anyone who was able to consider the welfare of their colleagues across the industry, not just in their own company, in such a light.

My sarcastic response above was based on my understanding that Rab's post was trying to encourage individuals in another company to take part in industrial action ("this is not a time for sitting on the fence"), which is rather different than simply supporting those that choose to do so.

[DH121]

Fancy donating a day's pay to the wives and families of those who you so outspokenly support?

What a good idea! Why not?

[Dr. Spin]

The company press release is misleading.

It gives the impression that there will not be any industrial action in 'baby' due to the fact that less than 50% of the TOTAL workforce have not voted for industrial action.

The simple fact is that 72% of BALPA members in 'baby' HAVE voted for industrial action. It is a majority vote within the membership that counts and NOT within total pilot body.

Make no mistakes BALPA NOW HAVE A MANDATE FOR STRIKE ACTION FOR BABY PILOTS.:D

BALPA have however stated to the company that there will be no strike called for on the bank holiday weekend - a goodwill gesture given the events of the last 7 to 10 days.

I suspect that they are waiting for the other two votes to be concluded before notifying management about any stoppages.

I am disgusted by the company’s blatant attempt at skewing the other two votes by misleading everyone into thinking that the 'baby' pilots have rolled over.

Well done to the 72% who voted YES, and I look forward to the same success with the other two groups. :ok:

[Fuzzy112]

The memo sent out today by the Director Of Operations wins the prize for the single most misleading piece of junk he has ever written - and he has written some junk in his time. Part of it is actually factually incorrect.
Here is his statement given in a company memo:
bmibaby has today been advised by BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association) that 90 of bmibaby’s 189 pilot workforce have voted in favour of strike action. This represents 47% of the total bmibaby pilot workforce.
Given that less than 50% of bmibaby’s pilots voted for a strike we welcome BALPA’s decision not to proceed with one. BALPA have requested a meeting with us to attempt to find a way through the dispute and we are reflecting on that proposal.
bmibaby’s offer of negotiations for a multi year pay deal for 2007 onwards remains on the table and we remain hopeful that any industrial action can be avoided.
Customers are advised to make no changes to their travel plans. bmibaby have contingency plans in place to deal with any operational disruption and will keep customers advised of current information via its website, www.bmibaby.com.
72% YES on a very large turnout is a great result. I have no doubt in the ability of the baby pilots to cause massive disruption and effectively stop the flying program. I only hope that the mainline and regional pilots will produce an even bigger mandate for the Association. Time to put the cards on the table I think.

[Mustavagander]

bmibaby has today been advised by BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association) that 33 of bmibaby’s 189 pilot workforce have voted against strike action. This represents just 17% of the total bmibaby pilot workforce.
Given that a vast majority (83%) of bmibaby’s pilots didn't vote against a strike we welcome BALPA’s decision to proceed with one. BALPA have requested a meeting with us to attempt to find a way through the dispute and we are reflecting on that proposal. :ok:

[lamina]

Fuzzy

I think you will find that the memo is word for word the same as the press release. The DoO is only the messanger whilst those above pass down missives.
I read the memo slightly differently to others. My interpretation is thus-

bmibaby has today been advised by BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association) that 91 of bmibaby’s 100 captains have voted in favour of strike action. This represents 91% of the total bmibaby captains.
Given that less than 92% of bmibaby’s captains voted for a strike we welcome BALPA’s decision to delay one. BALPA have requested a meeting with us to attempt to find a way through the dispute but we are still hiding up at the hall waiting for something to happen.:ugh:

[The real JR]

The company's spin, that baby has 189 pilots is rubbish.

That may be the number, including the 'John Doe' pahantoms which make the roster software work, and people who haven't actually joined yet, but it simply ain't true.

With new joiners whose feet aren't even under the table, leavers, and part time management pilots the numbet is in the high 170s.

90 is over fifty percent of the true number.

To spin 'we will not strike over the Bank holiday' into 'we have no mandate, therefore we will not strike' is dangerous indeed. BALPA have a mandate, make no mistake.

[Workingforless]

Do-zalbert writes:

Just to clear it up

...HOWEVER a lot of people are not members of BALPA, why should they be they generally dont do anything for you for the 1.5 % they take [unless you arent happy]....

Assuming you're a member of the company....if you're not, then, forgive my impertinence, just like I'll forgive yours....

:E

Albert - Now you're obviously not the brightest spark, but with the tax relief on subscriptions, that works out at how much?

Now how much have you earned out of the DFOD system this last 2 years?

£10K?

I don't suppose you've donated it to charity because BALPA have achieved FA for you?

Who feels like a baby (donut) now?

No wonder the ballot didn't deliver a bigger majority.

:ugh:

[blaireau]

I am booked Bordeaux-Manchester next Wednesday with BMI baby. Out of sheer self interest and curiosity, can anyone tell me what is likely to happen please?

May I wish you the best of luck guys. You provide a good service.

(I have been a BALPA member since '79)

[co pilot]

blaireau

I would suggest you follow this thread closely, as no one is in the position to answer that.

I am absolutely amazed that there are 33 pilots amongst us that have voted NO. What planet are they from? More importantly what planet are they heading towards????????????

Anyway, a good result by far and hopefully now we're talkin'................:ok:

[Nubboy]

Blaireau

since BALPA have to give a minimum notice of, I belive, 7 days, and you're travelling within that time, then I can't foresee any problem.

Enjoy, as they say.

[blaireau]

Thanks Nubboy. Now I will just work on reducing my carry-on bag!

[biddedout]

Albert,

You sound like the pilot in my company who sent in a BALPA resignation leter stating that he was dissapointed with the fact that BALPA hadn't achieved a satisfactory pay rise and improvements in other benefits and that he was also unhappy with the fact that rep / managment relationship was so untrusting and confromtational.

He wanted everything for his 1% and also wanted the reps to be very nice and cuddly in the way in which they went about asking for it. :rolleyes: :ugh:

[Fuzzy112]

Fuzzy
I think you will find that the memo is word for word the same as the press release. The DoO is only the messanger whilst those above pass down missives. [/I]:ugh:
In my mind that makes him a puppet and incapable of making his own decisions. I wonder if he has actually written ANY of the rubbish that has been churned out under his name over the last few weeks including the

'this is the most difficult letter I have had to write........' communication of a few weeks ago.

[moist]

Bacon Slicer (A good name, considering certain rumours....)

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, the joining Balpa bit is flawed.

You see, it is obvious that more members carry more voice. There are a number of people that have joined up in support of us trying to solve this dispute with a stronger, louder, united voice. They all understand that without this voice we have nothing. When the dispute is over, I expect the numbers to be dropping like a hot brick, as objectives will have been reached for the time being.

So, joining Balpa for 2 or 3 months could hardly cause anyone financial hardship, particularly when the outcome might bring a better remuneration package with it and an improvement in working conditions.

Anyone can re-join Balpa any time at a later date, when conditions again become intolerable.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmoist :D

[BigRab]

Gary Lager.
I would be more than happy to give up a days pay for a hardship fund to give people more confidence to stand up for themselves. Would you?
And given that some ungrateful people are always moaning about Balpa, whilst they are undermining their efforts by being too mean to make a self funding investment. How many others do you think would contribute an extra say 1%?
Yes, I’m glad I don’t work for BMI. I support those there who do. It is in all our interests that T&Cs throughout the industry are maintained.
It is important that the T&C’s at the best companies are not eroded by others trying to lower their cost base, selling ourselves out to the lowest bidder is not helpful.
Should we not be aiming to match the best not undercut the worst?
The threat to leave is not really the answer, the grass may not be greener and that option will not be viable for everyone.
Stick together, Balpa is all of you, New Rd provides back up and profession support, most of what happens is in your hands.
Roll over and get shafted, or stick up for yourselves. The choice is yours, difficult I know if it’s your job directly on the line, and yes most of us would rather have someone else fight our battles for us. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted.
I’ve not got long to retirement; but I feel for those who have borrowed heavily chasing a dream which may turn out to be a mirage.
Good Luck.

[Workingforless]

Bacon-Slicer,

I understand you've had an extra 10 days off in the ten months you've been at bmibaby thanks to BALPA then?

Correct?

At the FO's rate, thats £2.5-3K depending on how you look at it, correct?

That deal may have been agreed before your time, but it owes its genesis to BALPA, correct?

What you get back in a newly BALPA negotiated FREA (an extra £480) more than pays for your year's BALPA subscriptions (more like £17/month in your first year of employment!).

Whatever your objections, what happened at Easyjet & KLC UK?

Astonishing that so many can't see the big picture....

I agree with you though....a good way of raising some cash for the A330/A340's necessary to take up the slack on a newly deregulated TransAtlantic market, would be to sell the sweatshop.

:D

[Count von Altibar]

Well done the bmibaby pilots at a 73% vote in favour of strike action. The bmi board will be wondering what to do now, this whole thing is a long time in the making and pilots across the group are really going for it this time! Bring on a strong mainline result please people!

[CaptainProp]

Workingforless - You are correct regarding ezy, however, the biggest reason why we have managed to get to where we are / are heading in ezy is our new CEO, AH. With the old one still at the rudders we would have been faced with ballots for strike, loooong time ago...and then we would have been heading towards a very uncertain future...

I still think BALPA and our CC have done a great job and, even though we have a long way to go, the future looks brighter then ever! :D :ok:
/CP

[Fool's Hole]

I think it would do us a world of good at baby, if the management were to be reshuffled.
A new DoO for instance, with exceptionally good communication and man management skills would do for starters.
The chief pilot on the other hand is a unique gift to the industry (please don't EVER think of leaving!!!). If he wasn't where he is today, I would not be here writing this as an employee of this baby!
I can only hope some of our demands will come true as we're getting a little bit tired of all the crap we're made to swallow. :ok: :p :D

[Fuzzy112]

Letter from BALPA Representatives to all bmi non pilot employees.
8"' August 2006
For the attention of all non pilot employees of bmi mainline, bmi baby and bmi regional
Dear fellow bmi employee
You may be aware of the fact that members of BALPA in the three airline groups are currently engaged in strike ballots. You will also have seen the message which has been sent by the CEO to all group employees.
The reasons why each group of pilots are currently engaged in this process are many and varied. We would not want to patronise you by asking you to review any of the details. The company are painting a picture of us which suggests that we are asking to be treated differently from any of the other working groups. Various terms have been used by a number of company board members to describe their pilots - the most recent being made by the COO who stated we are a 'bunch of over paid prima donnas'. You will, we are sure, appreciate how comments such as this are received by BALPA members who, every day, are tasked with ensuring the safe carriage of passengers and crew to a wide range of destinations.
We know that the despatch of any aircraft comes about as a result of a team effort across a large number of company departments - all members of that team have an equal role to play. From Cabin Crew who have hands on contact with our passengers, Engineers who handle the technical issues every day, to those who work behind the scenes in Operations or in an office at Donington Hall. All pilots have enormous respect for all the employees who are part of that team.
The situation that is currently unfolding within the pilot groups has largely been brought about as a result of a legacy of broken agreements and promises which have taken place over a number of years.. Those agreements allow pilots to negotiate pay each year independently of other working groups. Rather than pilots asking to be treated differently to other staff, as the company are suggesting, pilots are rightly asking to be treated as per their existing agreements - nothing more and nothing less. By treating the pilots in the way they have the company are demonstrating the degree of disrespect and contempt they have for their workforce.
The company now state that they are willing to engage in negotiations for 2007 and 2008 with representatives from all the employee groups - a very typical jam tomorrow promise. The pilots are not in dispute about pay for 2007 or 2008. The current dispute only relates to 2006: The ECA subsidy will finish next year. Do you really think that the prospects for 2007 and 2008 will be any different from 2006? We would urge all employee groups to be cautious of the promises that the company are making with respect to the next few years.
Due to the position taken by the bmi board it is looking increasingly likely that there will be a strike action of some sort in the near future. You can be assured that the action will only come about as a last resort and only if all other possible dispute resolution avenues have been exhausted. We are mindful that this action will inevitably impact on employees who deal face to face with our customers. We regret any inconvenience that might be caused to all our fellow employees. We also hope that having taken the time to read this letter you will better understand that the pilots are not looking to be treated in a different way from other employee group. Pilots want ALL employees to be treated with respect and in accordance with whatever industrial agreements they might have. We are very mindful of the way in which the company treats many of its employees. The pilots are seeking to stand up to the company's 'its our way or no way' attitude. We hope we can rely on your support.
Thank you to the many of you who have indicated your support so far.
BALPA Pilot Representatives

[MrBenip]

[Quote from Fool's Hole]
The chief pilot on the other hand is a unique gift to the industry (please don't EVER think of leaving!!!).

Cripes!!! you can't possibly be working for mainline!

[Fool's Hole]

MrBenip

Why not come and join us then.
You'd almost want a bollocking from this person!!! :D


FH

[alterego]

What Baby management have nicely forgotten in the voting statistics is that the majority of those who voted for action are Captains. When you factor out Management Captains and Contract guys a huge majority of Aircraft Commanders are in favour of action in Baby.

A strike would be far more effective than just 47% of all pilots not working!

Agree about the Chief Pilot. Baby would be far deeper in the S**t were it not for him.

[theresalwaysone]

Happy days! but dont forget the damage you are doing while all this goes on. Ive just being trying to book a holiday but guess which airline i wouldnt even consider travelling with at the moment?

It takes a hell of a lot of effort to get an airline established but very little to close it down!

[angels]

theresalways - shouldn't your last post be aimed at the management rather than the PBI???

Edited to add I'm humble pax, not a pilot.

[Fuzzy112]

There are always those that see a cup as being half empty rather than half full. What you have to ask though is how management can leave a professional bunch of people in a situation which gives them no option but to consider withdrawing labour. It is a last resort, it will remain a last resort but anyone reading this would do well to steer clear of bmi until about the end of september. You should also be aware that many of the pilots actually have zero interest in the long term future of the airline as the management have no long term interest either. The company is being shaped up to sell - the sooner that happens the better IMHO.

[brighton_rocks]

Good luck with the action folks! give them the kick they need to start treating people with respect and decency they deserve, Interesting to hear that Flybe and Globespan have been sniffing around DH, I have also been told by a source at DH, that LH have been sniffing around again recently and been for tea and biccies (with all the cost cutting i bet they had to get them from vending machines) - makes you wonder.
Is Mr B thinking of his final pension with a buy one get two free offer?
IE Mainline, Regional and their Baby?

And maybe the website will be changed to flybmi.gone (http://www.flybmi.gone) !!! with you being re - directed to Flybe,Globespan or whoever raids their piggybank!

I'm just really suspicious why the management aren't worried that things are gonna kick off.

Also can anyone tell me why BRU flights from EMA are on the Baby website when they are a regional route and have been for 3 years now?
I admit it does transfer you to main Bmi website but for how long? - You know what they are like for pulling the rug! Like at EMA before, maybe its history repeating.....:rolleyes:

[upandoffmyside]

Not just the pilots who are unhappy with the management bullies at the Hall....

BMI Airport GMB Check-In Staff To Ballot For Official Stoppage In Pay Dispute
GMB has given BMI official notice of a strike ballot
22 Aug 2006

GMB has given the go ahead for an official strike ballot of members employed by BMI at London Heathrow following the imposition of a 2.4% pay rise on them without any consultation or room for negotiation. GMB gave official notice to the company that the ballot was going ahead today, Monday 21st August.

Following the seven day notice the strike ballot will take place over a two week period, from 29th of August. The result will be expected on Tuesday the 12th of September, two weeks after the ballot ends. Depending on the outcome of the ballot then GMB will have to give 7 days notice of any official stoppage. In short we are looking at possible airport strike action around the weekend of the 23rd of September.

The imposition of the 2.4% pay rise affects 250 GMB members who provide check in services for BMI at a number of airports in the UK. The pay rise has also been imposed on other staff who work for the company and these employees are separately balloting for industrial action on the issue.

GMB Regional Organiser, Kelly Rogers, said "GMB members who work for BMI have asked the union to set up an official strike ballot to enable the members to protest at the imposition of an enforced 2.4% pay rise. This offer is not acceptable, and I predict that the members will vote overwhelmingly for strike action."

-Ends-

http://www.gmb.org.uk/Templates/PressItems.asp?NodeID=94387

[Fuzzy112]

In one of the CEO's letters in which he tries to demonise his pilots and split the workforce he says that there was 'tacit' acceptance of the company position by the other working groups (other than pilots). If a strike ballot from the GMB represents 'tacit' acceptance then I dread to think what disagreement would mean.
Good luck to all GMB members.

[Accident Prawn]

BMI Bloody Maniacs In charge :ugh:

[jordan]

I've never read such childish petty drivel in years. It sounds as if most of you believe that you have some God-given right to demand the pay increase that you believe is right. How on earth is a strike going to help!! If you feel so upset there is always an exit door. No-one is forcing you to work. There are plenty of other jobs around, and no doubt plenty of people that would jump into your shoes, and lots more that would welcome a pay rise of 2.4%.

I don't work for bmi but have been in the business for many years, and hardly anyone has mentioned the most important issue of all. The PASSENGER. It's he/she who pays your wage - not the company, and you are currently losing hundreds of bookings because of uncertainties, which inevitably puts strain on the business, leading to potential cut-backs and redundancies. Is this what you want? If so - there are some sick people around!

It's a free world - and if you don't like it no-one is stopping you from leaving!

[Skylion]

Jordan is right,- the industry at the moment faces the dire prospect of the customers getting hacked off with the hassle and the aggravation being imposed upon them without having to put up with the added ingredients of strikes,- be they BMI people in September or Stansted's next weekend.
This one looks as if it is more generated by miffedness at 2.4% being imposed rather than about 2.4% itself. BMI lost money for 4 years and then made a bit over £ 5 million last year,- a very low return for those who take the investment risks and navigate the company through all the regulatory , legal and other obstacles which daily frustrate all those trying to manage a business.
A strike will only alientate customers, reduce future profits,- and therefore pay increases,- and risk destroying jobs and terms and conditions rather than improving them. Useful for venting spleen maybe, but little else. Everyone in this industry needs to understand that it is customer driven and if holidays, trips to relatives, business trips are ruined it will come back to bite us all. There is no sympathy out there in the real world.

[Accident Prawn]

jordan - skylion?

Your comments are noted.

Either of you haven't the experience of working for the group, or the grace to understand what's really going on.
It may seem as simple as it seems to you, but the issues are complicated beyond your shallow comprehension(s).

The history is 30 years old and it's time to sort it.

The passengers haven't moved away, yet another 4 sectors yesterday with just under 500 of them and that's only on my aircraft and only half a day's shift!

skylion - it will come back to bite us all

You're right: In your declining Ts & Cs, you are short sighted like your friend seems to be.

jordan - go and blame the management ok?:ugh:

[oscarh]

Jordan and Skylion, absolutely spot-on.

Strike, strike, strike. What has a strike ever brought except misery?

Grow up people. 2.4% is surely not much but at least it's around inflation. We are living in very difficult times indeed. If you don't like it, then write a note to Sir Michael telling him why it's so bl**dy awful.

If you feel that your management is that bad, same applies and if you haven't got the balls to put your head over the parapet, leave.

Oscar is receiving his BM pension before you ask what it's got to do with him and like many, he saw the good times and the bad.

Oscar will now duck.

[mccdatabase]

I have worked for bmi in excess of 20 years and although they have never been the best payers in the industry they have NOT been the worst either, in fact some of the better payers who were out there have now gone bust I wonder why? !!. I also was not happy about the 2.4% rise but taking into account the fact that the company has only just managed to turn a small profit after several years of losses I felt that it was just about as reasonable as could be expected. On previous occasions when times were hard we did not get any annual rise some years, NONE of us has a God given right to expect or demand unrealistic pay rises and I would rather be in work this time next year than have had a big rise for a few months then be made jobless, it is interesting to note that the unions seem to be encouraging action, could this be because they feel like they were left out of the loop in this years pay rise??. I agree that some of the business decisions that have been made of late have been questionable but Sir Michael Bishop is nobodys fool and I am sure he will be addressing the problems and their causes, now is not the time to be playing a game of brinkmanship or listening to a few discontented rabble rousers, get real people and please dont be the turkeys who voted for christmas!!:=

ps before someone accuses ; I am not management NOR do I have aspirations to management

[one four sick]

mccdatabase

We know who you are. You are not with balpa, but quite happy to enjoy the dfods that come your way as well as other benefits you get as a result of the company council's exsistence!
As previously explained, it is not unreasonable by the membership to demand a halt to dwindling conditions at work and to try to arrest the ever decreasing quality of lifestyle that comes with the job at this particular company.
The fact that you are here not for a carreer, but for building hours, does not make you empowered to take part or otherwise in shaping the long term prospects of those pilots that may be planning to stay a little longer.
No one has "god given rights" to anything, but certainly a right to take action when the threat doesn't just stop here.

oscarh,

Where have you been all this time. Who wants to "strike strike strike"??? Talking about missing a point HUGELY!!!!

14sick

[mccdatabase]

one four sick (the last bit is quite appropriate!!) you are obviously having a little trouble with your reading skills today,:confused: it is quite clear from your post that you have absolutely no idea who I am:= , how many hours builders do you know with two decades of service in bmi?? as for the "we know who you are " comment, is that some kind of implied threat:eek: ?? will you be happy if your terms and conditions dwindle down to a trip to the dole office or are you one of those who think"well I will be alright jack I can always get another job anyway:\ " perhaps that may be the best solution for you, I am sure Ryanair will welcome you then maybe you really would have somthing to complain about:{
ps sorry you feel that because I do not agree with your kamikaze attitude I dont have a right to express an opinion but thats called democracy old chap, dissenters are not (as a rule) shot at dawn these days

[one four sick]

With 20 years of service, perhaps you should know better.
You should also take a little time to examine what the majority want and see in which way you stick out of the crowd.
You are not a balpa member, you have not voted, you have no say in what happens next.
Balpa will dictate the forthcoming action not you.

[POLICE]

mccdatabase

You are obviously a happy person after two decades in the group.
Can you show us just 2 more similar people to yourself in this airline?
No? I think not.

[mccdatabase]

The very fact that there are quite a few people with many years service invested in the company would indicate to me that they must be reasonably happy to work for bmi otherwise they would have left long ago for "greener pastures", BALPA may well dictate the next move but that does not mean that people cannot express an opinion on the matter of the future of the job security of the workforce in bmi (or does a bit of honest soul searching not fit in with your view of reasoned discussion?:ugh: )

[Skylion]

Heavy "we know who you are" type threats sound very ominous and much like the rustbucket industries in the 50s and 60s. Look where most of those are now. To strike or not to strike should always be an individual choice. So called majorities can get very ugly- and in these situations are very ugly. We should not be seeing these,- or attempts to suppress views in any way,- amongst professionals, especially when they have plenty of choice of alternative employers if this one really is so dire in the realistic context of the current aviation world. Courage means going somewhere else if not happy, not threatening people who hold different views. Who likes schoolyard bully tactics?

[Count von Altibar]

With an attitude like mcdatabase expect more deteriorating T&C's an management taking the piss. We need a big 'YES' vote to bring the company to their senses...

[Quod Boy]

Erm,Mcdatabase & others I was at Midland for 6 yrs 20 yrs ago,and reading this thread NOTHING has changed.
I witnessed 2 ballots for action and clearly remember watching the "fence sitters" management wanabees and non balpa members deliberate upto 48 hrs before the planned action.I was an FO with less to lose then but still the principle is the same.Accept below standard Ts&Cs or stand up and be counted with your fellow colleagues.I was truly shocked at how we as a union refused to accept a 4% pay cut in order to retain 30 laid off pilots and equally watch action called off at the last minute.Knowles laughed at us.
Like many I left months later and the grass sometimes is greener and I believe after many of us left for BA,Cx,Ek,Vs etc etc terms did improve for the better.
Sitting on the sidelines means you potentially gain from the risk of others who truly want to better their lot,BM management havent altered their view and
by accepting their offer you play into their hands.
little wonder youve been there 20 years then.
Stand up as a GROUP and be heard,the directors make an extremely good living through your efforts,they can and should afford to pay what you value yourselves at at Midland.The public will still travel,and so will Bishop,Wolfe & Co in their jags and private jets.
Good luck guys.BM was great fun,great people,big turnover and for me never a long term option,but has anyone at Toad Hall asked why BM hire train and lose so many pilots.IF they looked after their pilots by giving them the best Ts&Cs they would retain pilots and not be a training airline for many.
Clearly that philosophy has not been embraced not in the last 20 yrs at least.The bar awaits.QB

[111boy]

I worked for baby
great people....nasty management, in my humble opinion
I hope the whole thing goes well......
good luck, have never seen anything like the terrible attitude the management have towards their employees.........

[moist]

I can't actually believe that mccdatabase & Skylion are actually working as pilots for real.
Their opinions are straight out of the management spin book.
Neither of them mention for instance the DoOs bullyboy phonecalls to those vulnerable new f/os.
Why not, lets hear your views about that. On the other hand - let's not!

Quod Boy

It's obvious there are people that just don't get, or don't want to get the bigger picture, possibly because of their short termism.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[mccdatabase]

I have never condoned bullying from management, I too find some of the tactics they employ rather distasteful, however is this proposed industrial action about management behavior or is it about an enforced pay rise,if it is the former there are better ways to deal with the issue than risking the future of a long standing company in a rather fragile market, if it is the latter even if action did suceed in raising the rise by maybe a per cent or so the disruption and inconvenience to our customers would cause even more of them to turn to other carriers in which case the tiny profits already made would be wiped out and we would all be back in the same situation next year ! this is not management spin as you call it, IT IS COMMON SENSE, there is a right time to play hardball and there is also a right time to be realistic, too many companies have gone down the pan because a few militants thought they knew better, I do not want to see bmi be another
I am sorry that my humble opinion seems to provoke such vitriolic responses from some of my colleagues but if nothing else it seems to be creating discussion and hopefully is making everyone think very carefully before setting in motion a process that could be disasterous for us all

[Hirsutesme]

Whilst there are many reasons to only use industrial action as a last resort, it does actually have a two fold effect, as well as increasing the pay, it also teaches managers that you can only push people so far, and in my experience, means that for a while after the action, management actually engage their brains in dealing with staff.


Edited for spelling and content!

[ragamuffin]

Dont be fooled by mccdatabase and skylion.

They're stooges.

Vote with your brain bmi pilots. Your paying the BALPA subs, follow they're advice.

[pint'alfempty]

Mccdatabase,

Don't I know you? Weren't you the one at school who sat at the front desk with the furry green pencil case always nodding at teacher?

[moist]

mccdatabase

I don't know how many times you needed to be told how to scan your instruments, or how to successfully start a jet engine BUT you have by now been told about 300 times that NOBODY WANTS TO STRIKE.

However, a solid yes vote will avert a strike because management can't actually allow it. They will have to listen and talk over a big shiny effin table!

Please for $£*& sake don't keep harping on about the damage a strike may cause, just watch and when it comes to actually going on strike, then bring your submissive and frightened case up again!!!!!

No company has gone under because a strike took it down - not one! If however this one does, then it was meant to happen, as the business was not viable to continue in any case!

[Workingforless]

....if it is the latter even if action did suceed in raising the rise by maybe a per cent or so the disruption and inconvenience to our customers would cause even more of them to turn to other carriers in which case the tiny profits already made would be wiped out and we would all be back in the same situation next year ! this is not management spin as you call it, IT IS COMMON SENSE, there is a right time to play hardball and there is also a right time to be realistic, too many companies have gone down the pan because a few militants thought they knew better, I do not want to see bmi be another....


Arguably, if the industry stopped treating the customer as God, it'd do itself a favour.

Of course, its always hard to be the sacrificial lamb.

The sooner we all realize that we're all effectively subsidising the general public by affording them the opportunity to travel to ALC for the price of a Chinese take-away, the better off we'll all be.

Over-capacity, lack of pricing power, extreme revenue sensitivity....

Maybe its time for some rationalisation?

Nevertheless, some airlines are making boat-loads of cash - RYR, BA, EZY, EK.....

Which suggests perhaps that the economic climate in the industry isn't as hard as the bmi management would have you believe.

Aren't we somewhere close to the peak of the business cycle? 10 years isn't it? Which means we're five years from the 2001 trough....

You can't whinge about fuel prices, if you're charging a fuel surcharge....

How to resolve the apparent contradiction?

IMHO, you have to question the credentials of the bmi management.

High oil prices are no surprise.

They've known about the end of the ECA subsidy for years.

Why is the CEO claiming the business transformation is only 25% complete? Why did he leave three quarters of the job to be done in 2006/7 - the last year of the subsidy? What has he been doing the last x number of years? Has the evidence that the agreement with LH was not delivering the expected benefits for BD only surfaced this year?

Sure he's got a number of headaches. Most airline management's do.

But whilst he's investing in an infrastructure to support operations out of LHR to RYD, JED, BOM & DME, he's failing to realise that grandiose management aspirations need to be shared by the workforce to come to fruition.

The best asset bmi have is their workforce.

I contend that they are quite right to demand that hand in hand with
the operational investment going on in the business as of now, a little more investment is made on their account.

As I understand, the bench-marking undertaken by the bmi CC demonstrates the inequalities.

I hazard a guess, the performance of the business would improve as a result.

[Dr. Spin]

It's D-day tomorrow for mainline, and I hope for everyone's sake that we get a massive YES vote.

As my dearly departed granny used to say, 'you can poke the most placid dog with a stick, but eventually it will turn around and bite you'

I think we've all been aggravated for long enough and tomorrow will tell.

For those of you unfamiliar with the exact mainline pay dispute, it's not all about money. In fact my vote was mostly swayed by the refusal by management to honour the agreement signed in good faith in 2004. If we let them railroad us this time then we can kiss goodbye to any, an I mean ANY ability to negotiate in the future!

Today’s corporate memo from NT states:

".... I wanted to update you on the BALPA situation. I have written to Jim McAuslan of BALPA, offering a meeting to discuss the issues raised by BALPA, in relation to its members in all airlines across the group.

It is important that we both address issues constructively, especially in light of the recent difficulties facing the UK aviation industry, and that is what we will aim to do. ..."

Do I detect a change in tone? At least we seem to have got them back to the table. It's a start anyway, and beats being ignored.