NIMROD "Maritime Revamped Aircraft"

[Gaz ED]

Signed for 12 aircraft, apparently...

[rab-k]

Seems someone is guilty of leg-pulling at the expense of the 'Beeb', who now refer to the Nimrod MRA4 as a "maritime revamped aircraft". :E

But then again, perhaps they're not that far off the mark! :ok:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/5186680.stm

[A2QFI]

I wonder if the wings will fit this time?

[Safety_Helmut]

check out the picture on http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/RafGetsexceptionalNewNimrod.htm. The MR2s seem to have had some modification work. :\

S_H

[microlight AV8R]

Nimrod R1 methinks.
Funny angle, but you'd expect messrs MOD & Co to get it right :ugh:

[microlight AV8R]

Yes, but not interchangeable, so don't do two of them in the same hangar. :cool:

[giblets]

Any chance of the them inceasing the order later on? I am guessing the development costs are included in this order, so should bring the cost down.

[movadinkampa747]

Oh good two Nimrod threads

[FJJP]

Isn't it just mindblowing that the MOD, for God's sake, can't get the caption right?

Nimrod R1s.

[buoy15]

Yep!
It's the same old picture they have used for all their press releases - probably the only one they have
If they were to contact the photo section at ISK they could get some really nice MR2 ones - in bare metal and shiney - even sepia, B&W and colour - Hemp, or Sea Grey (actually duck egg blue) the MR4A colour, which is very smart - 2 'blue bombers' on the ISK line at present.
Probably even get a photo of the one that was sprayed turd brown due to an incorrect 1 digit section and reference No from some knob at MOD - this was spotted by a 'sharp' stacker who advised them of the colour - "Wind your neck in and just issue the paint" came the reply - so they did!
This jet was aptly nicknamed "Elsan Airways", and, at the time, was wisely delivered to 4th Division South at St Mawgan:ok:

[microlight AV8R]

Buoy,

Any chance of some pictures? the blue sounds rather fetching.

Is Elsan Airways a fully owned subsidiary of Mushroom Airways?

Edit: speeelnig adn rwong kyes

[vecvechookattack]

maritime revamped aircraft

Its true though isn't it?

[Mike Oxbigg]

FJJP and Buoy15 -

Yes it is annoying isn't it? But sometimes aircrew make the same mistake! During GW1, whilst on a certain 4th division south MR2 Sqn deployed to Akrotiri, myself and some other crew members were making our way out to the jet in a minibus. It was about 4.30am and pitch dark, and we were all still half asleep, there were shedloads of aircraft on the pan, we saw a Nimrod and headed for it. Arriving at the Jet, it was in complete darkness- wheres the f**kin' groundcrew we said, never mind lets get on board. Lugging our kit up the steps we found the door locked. Suddenly the penny dropped, we looked at the tail and noticed the lack of a MAD boom (51 Sqn were also there). We hurridly got back into the minibus and drove to the correct pan, glad that it was too dark for anyone else to notice our faux pas, and resolving not to mention a word to anyone (until this day)!.

Sorry for the thread creep!
MO

[reddeathdrinker]

It's not "blue", it's officially "Camouflage Grey". BS631, originally known as "Barley Grey" in the days of the Phantom Force.....

Here's one I took yesterday....

http://fileanchor.com/45738-r.jpg

[Tracey Island]

Nearly £92m per airframe to keep 1000 jobs going? Why not give each of the 1000 workers a cheque for £1.1m and tell them to sort the rest of their own lives out?:confused:

[Gaz ED]

Good idea:-

Here's your cheque - now can you go and do a SAR mission just west of Shannon for me please? Oh, and later on I'd like you to be available to circle over the capital, just in case we have a national emergency....

Is that a retractable EOSDS sticking out of your bottom?

:}

[Tracey Island]

So what you're saying is there are absolutely no other options that could do these taskings? A Nimrod is the World's only SAR aircraft, it's also the World's sole aircraft that can act as an airborne comms middleman, it's the only fixed wing ASW plane in the market, it's the only recce asset in the Western World, etc. etc.

An alternative view from those outside your MATZ would be that our Scottish MPs sitting in London daren't can the Nimrod force for fear of a Jockanese backlash and even in these days of financial squeeze have been railroaded into pouring more money into an ageing platform.

My exasperation is not aimed at your force per se but at our procurement process, which invariably has such rigid government conditions imposed on it that a single result is the only outcome, eg. pick any helicopter you want provided it's made in Yeovil, let competition decide the best replacement for the Hawk trainer - provided it's called a Hawk, those american carriers are awesome - bet if we cobbled together a consortium of has-been shipbuilders and asked them to replicate it would be just as good rather than buy off-the-shelf, etc. etc. :ugh:

Have you not noticed that across all these threads :ugh: is the most commonly used smily?

[Gaz ED]

All valid points.

It seems to me that it would have been futile to can it at this stage.

The decision to continue was made 3 or 4 years ago, on the back of possibly the most stupid contract ever agreed by BAE. Note that no more contracts of that ilk will ever be signed again. Desperate times for BAE equalled low, low prices.

I think the major flaw was believing hand-made fuselages (before CAD/CAM etc.) would fit onto wings made by robots!

Good news is the mission system is supposed to be excellent - but then that was made by Boeing!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: (lesson learnt!)

[vecvechookattack]

I couldnt agree more. To try and justify this folly with as feeble an excuse as a SAR task to the west of Shannon and with being able to circle London is silly...

Why won't anyone admit that this aircraft is a complete and utter waste of time and money. We don't need it, we don't want it and the whole idea should be scrapped now before we waste anymore of my money on it.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Gaz ED]

Vecvechookatack - I did have tongue in cheek there!

All I'm saying is it would be further folly to dump a system that is near complete.

Uk procurement policy is flawed...always has been.

What is the alternative?

Rely totally on other countries' "export" variants? Thats' fielding a second team. Look at the JSF, will we ever get access to source codes, so that our industry can tinker with them? Will Congress let us?

The price of retaining an indigenous capability in defence is suffering our now routine procurement funk ups.

Is it all worth it, I ask myself.

[Mad_Mark]

Why won't anyone admit that this aircraft is a complete and utter waste of time and money. We don't need it, we don't want it and the whole idea should be scrapped now before we waste anymore of my money on it.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
So, the fact that about half the MR2 force of aircraft are currently operationally deployed with about 1/3 of operational crews quite clearly shows that there is no use for the Nimrod these days - get a life you friggin retard :mad: Far from being a waste of time and money, only 12 airframes are too few for the amount of tasking the current frame receives and a big mistake on behalf of this tight-ar$ed Government :ugh:
MadMark!!! :mad:

[Green Meat]

This thread is starting to sound horribly like the aftermath of the Sandys report in 1957, re the Lightning:"Unfortunately this project has gone too far to stop..." (paraphrasing, anyway). Good job, really.

The trouble with procuring assets only for what is happening right now is that you can't predict what you need. Having said that, of course, I'll now tactfully not mention Typhoon.

Buy Gripen! (Neat thread hi-jack, don't you think? :p )

[Not_a_boffin]

If the answer to the question "Do we need a long-range MPA with good ASW capability?" is yes (which it should be, given who we are, where we live and operate and who has submarines or could regenerate them quickly) then this project makes sense. Not very cost-effective sense certainly, but sense nonetheless.

There are no other options out there that are close to entering service. When the original competition was run ISTR the options were Nimrod rebuild, P3 rebuild, Atlantique 2 or hang around and wait for the P7 to materialise (it still hasn't). Given the long range & ToS requirements and fuselage volume required, that pretty much left Nimrod & P3 rebuilds. At the time, the P3 rebuild was probably the better bet in terms of export potential, but the decision was made and we have to live with it.

Despite the best efforts of certain people in town, the submarine threat is still there and MIOPS also require a wide area surveillance asset that in the absence of CV-based S3 vikings is best done by Nimrod.

[Jimlad1]

Having seen first hand the value of the MR2 in places warmer than Scotland, I am a firm convert to the value of this program for the whole of the defence community. People are waking up to the fact that MR2 doesnt just do SAR and it is an increasingly mission critical asset in a lot of places.

The only downside of it was the roar it made taking off which kept waking me up :)

[Gaz ED]

MRA 4 is lots quieter! Jarman engines!

[Mad_Mark]

Having seen first hand the value of the MR2 in places warmer than Scotland, I am a firm convert to the value of this program for the whole of the defence community. People are waking up to the fact that MR2 doesnt just do SAR and it is an increasingly mission critical asset in a lot of places.

The only downside of it was the roar it made taking off which kept waking me up :)

Ahhh, finally - someone that actually uderstands that the MR2 (and the MRA4 when it comes into service) is not isimply a ASW/SAR platform. :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[ORAC]

So, the fact that about half the MR2 force of aircraft are currently operationally deployed with about 1/3 of operational crews

That would seem to raise the question as too how many crews we need. I mean, if half the aircraft with 1/3 of the CR crews can do the operational task, why does the other half need twice as many crews back at home..... :confused:

Rely totally on other countries' "export" variants? Thats' fielding a second team. Look at the JSF, will we ever get access to source codes, so that our industry can tinker with them? Will Congress let us?
Good news is the mission system is supposed to be excellent - but then that was made by Boeing!

So, what, exactly, sort of better arrangement do we have with Boeing, than we have with LM?..... :bored:

[Gaz ED]

Our american cousins don't seem so possessive about TCSS software than they do about, say, AMRAAM, and JSF.

Only in my little world, of course.

[Mad_Mark]

So, the fact that about half the MR2 force of aircraft are currently operationally deployed with about 1/3 of operational crews

That would seem to raise the question as too how many crews we need. I mean, if half the aircraft with 1/3 of the CR crews can do the operational task, why does the other half need twice as many crews back at home..... :confused:

Maybe because of several reasons:

1. To allow crews that have recently returned from operational deployment to have some leave and refresh their training on the many other roles that the MR2 does.

2. To allow crews about to deploy to carry out specialist pre-deployment training.

3. Because a fleet of 12 a/c and 20 crews gives 0.6 a/c per crew whilst we currently have deployed about 5 a/c (about 1/2 the fleet) and 7 crews (about 1/3 of the fleet) giving 0.7 a/c per crew.

4. So that the crews back home can squeeze in all the other BS that the RAF seem to enforce these days - the number of annual (admin) stats required seems to have trebbled since I joined :ugh:

You obviously seem to have little concept in these matters :sad:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[ORAC]

Ohhhhh, bite..... :E

[Mad_Mark]

Ohhhhh, bite..... :E

Ahhh, the usual 'get-out clause' when YOU are made to look stoopid :ok:

[ORAC]

Nahh. I might point out a lot of people have to manage with 2 tranches, one in theatre and one out, and that places like the Falklands have been manned by gapping posts at home for over 30 years - after the money funded by the treasury for the posts was used to fill gaps elsewhere. We'll take the money for that Mount Kent post and establish another MT driver at xxxx....

To actually see a force which can manage to fill do it so comfortably shows you have an establishment that nobody has been able to nibble away at. But the kipper fleet always was a world onto its own.

In my world it was a total pain doing without not only the body who was away, but a second, to cover pre and post deployment training and leave.

I think a lot of people will be looking at your reasons as valid reasons, but thinking they should be so lucky to have so many people....... :rolleyes:

[Biggus]

I thought all the RAF multi engine fleets had a ratio of crews to aircraft of about 1.5 to 1, to allow for 24/7 Ops during war. During my time at Lyneham there were approx 80-90 crews for 60 airfames (all K models then). In which case the numbers Mad Mark quotes for the kipper fleet are not unusual.

Are you telling me that the RAF only has 6 or 7 E-3D crews, is only planning on 5 ASTOR crews, only has 9 Tristar crews, only enough VC-10 crews for one a/c each, etc, etc.

I think not!!

p.s Oh yes, sorry I forgot, and only 4 C-17 crews!!

[frostbite]

Article regarding software/hardware upgrades:-

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/emergingtech/0,39020357,39279218,00.htm