F111 in trouble [Archive]

Merlins Magic

18th Jul 2006, 03:16

AN RAAF F-111 fighter jet is preparing for an emergency landing near Brisbane.
A Defence Force spokesman said today the plane's under-carriage was damaged during takeoff from the RAAF Amberley base, west of Brisbane.
He said the crew was dumping fuel over Moreton Bay "as a precautionary measure" prior to attempting to land.
The spokesman said the situation was an emergency.
"The aircraft is very airworthy," he said. "We have very highly trained emergency personnel to deal with situations like this".

The spokesman said it was not yet clear how the jet had lost one of its two nosewheels.

Flight Detent

18th Jul 2006, 03:50

F-111s do in fact, have two nose wheels, but the problem with this particular one is that it has only one main wheel, hence the emergency!

I understand the F-111 is going to attemp a very low fuel arrestor landing at the RAAF base.

Good luck guys!

Cheers, FD :D

Magoodotcom

18th Jul 2006, 04:04

I've heard it's a nosewheel they lost, so hopefully they can put it down gently and walk away safely.

Fingers crossed guys! :uhoh:

Magoo

Magoodotcom

18th Jul 2006, 04:22

Just landed with assistance from arrestor gear, crew OK apparently. Well done to all. :D
Magoo

Minimbah

18th Jul 2006, 05:24

F-111 lands safely after mid-air emergency

The pilot of a stricken F-111 jet has successfully made an emergency landing at Amberley Air Base, west of Brisbane, this afternoon.
The plane got into trouble around 11.30am AEST, developing landing gear difficulties.
It was unable to lower its undercarriage and circled the Amberley landing strip for about three hours to burn off fuel.
Around 2:00pm AEST the plane hit the runway at low speed, with flame and smoke issuing from behind the jet, before it quickly ground to a halt.
The two-member crew managed to land the aircraft on the second attempt.
Ambulance officers who were standing by have confirmed that the crew is unharmed.

Aussie

18th Jul 2006, 05:56

Is that another Advark out of service now?

What are we down to....

Aussie

Buster Hyman

18th Jul 2006, 06:17

Perhaps, but the good news is we still have the crew with us!:ok:

Well done.

Time Bomb Ted

18th Jul 2006, 06:19

Now THAT is what I call some seriously good flying.

Check out the news footage for those who want to see how it should be done.

Bloody well done guys.

TBT

Bevan666

18th Jul 2006, 06:33

Video footage can be found here..

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=114974

The_Cutest_of_Borg

18th Jul 2006, 08:56

Looks like he missed the approach end arrestor wire, which in hindsight looks to be the ideal result. (Actually only looks that way... on closer inspection he actually did take the wire!)

Well done guys!:D

I reckon it would be Cat 5 though. It hit the runway with a fair old jolt.

Edit: I take that back, on seeing another video I can't see why it couldn't fly again!
This one is a better link... http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=20473&sy=smh&source=smh.com.au%2F&t=6S9DC8&ie=1&player=wm7&rate=1022&flash=1

PPRuNeUser0212

18th Jul 2006, 10:14

Well done to the young fella:ok: , he did take the wire (by the tv vision) but don't think it held. They were past the 1500ft marker before pulling up and lots of sparks and fumes from around the dump mast.
Tough ol beasts the Pig. :D

tobzalp

18th Jul 2006, 10:36

I hear he has only been 'rated'(dunno the pilot lingo term for it) 2 weeks. Very impressive. Awsome footage of a not so awsome event. Good on him. He should drink for free for evermore I think.

NAMPS

18th Jul 2006, 11:30

The crew did a fantastic job!!

weasil

18th Jul 2006, 12:06

Why are they still flying F111's?

Gnadenburg

18th Jul 2006, 12:27

Why are they still flying F111's?

Perhaps for the same reason you're still flying B52's? :ok:

Shot Nancy

18th Jul 2006, 12:49

1. Best footage so far:

http://media.theaustralian.news.com.au/f111_player.htm

2. Nice to see the right seater help his mate out.

3. Beyond economic repair due to all that corrosive spray that ended up in the flight station.

4. Good effort. "case of beer for that one".

oldm8

18th Jul 2006, 13:49

Oh dear thats 1/4 of the servicable F-111 fleet gone!!

Sadly I am not exaggerating

Taildragger67

18th Jul 2006, 14:09

Slight thread drift,

But does anyone know where that great vid clip of Pigs beating up beaches, dams, etc. would be on the net? I think it goes for about 3 mins or so.

Back to the topic... doubtless the airframe was older than the driver; they built 'em tough back then. Glad the crew got out under their own steam and will live to fly another day. As for the beers... I reckon they'd be shouting the Mess, but only after stopping off at the newsagent to get a scratchie!!

Interesting way to kick off a fast-jet career!!

Magoodotcom

18th Jul 2006, 23:30

Oh dear thats 1/4 of the servicable F-111 fleet gone!!

Sadly I am not exaggerating

Umm, yeah, you are! Besides, what's the point of making such a dumb ar$ed statement anyway! :=

Magoo

W800i

18th Jul 2006, 23:53

I believe Gnadenburg is correct re the B-52. I have read that certain parts of the B-52 fleet, re engined and updated with new avionics and weapons will fly to 2040ish in USAF serrvice.

Well done to the young pilot of the F-111.

Bleve

19th Jul 2006, 00:26

For info: an airfield arrestor cable does not stop an aircraft the same way as an aircraft carrier cable. The airfield one is 'softer' and plays out quite a distance. Vision of the F111 incident yesterday suggests that the cable functioned quite normally.

victor two

19th Jul 2006, 00:47

I reckon the young fella did a superb job with that. He stuck that hook into the dirt and dragged it halfway across the state of Queensland, down the runway and onto that cable like he does it every day. Can't be as easy to do as he made it look. Awesome bit of flying! Well done.

Monopole

19th Jul 2006, 01:07

Not too many moons ago, I was watching a C310 with the nose wheel not locked attempting to land at YPJT. As the A/C touched down the nose wheel swung out to its fullest extent and the weight of the aircraft kept it there :ok:.

I overheard a reporter that was also watching say "Oh is that it" as she turned and walked away. I asked her what she meant and she said how no-one was hurt, no one would be interested. I pointed out how lucky the pilot was but she simply didn't care :{ :{ :{

I was glad to hear on the link to the Australian footage (for some reason I had no picture), the reporters comments of support and the round of applause not only when the F111 came to a stop, but also again when they realised NO-ONE was hurt. Are there some worthy reporters out there???

Well done to the crew.

Aussie

19th Jul 2006, 02:13

Good effort from the Lad of 1 or 6SQN, didnt catch who that particular one belonged too...

Cheers

Aussie

zlin77

19th Jul 2006, 04:24

It might be old but I heard from one of my old F/O's in OZ ,who used to fly "The Pig" that it was good for 800 KIAS at sea level. I think it weighs the same as a DC-9 -30 at max wt.!!

planeenglish

19th Jul 2006, 04:54

Gnadenburg

19th Jul 2006, 05:35

Quite brave too. Considering the escape capsule, I assume, was servicable.

Ex Douglas Driver

19th Jul 2006, 06:10

Giuseppe for CAF!

Obviously, I'd put your success down to the skilled instruction you received during IFC :hmm:.

Well done

Magoodotcom

19th Jul 2006, 06:24

It might be old but I heard from one of my old F/O's in OZ ,who used to fly "The Pig" that it was good for 800 KIAS at sea level.

Only 800? Keep going!

I think it weighs the same as a DC-9 -30 at max wt.!!

Yep, up to about 95,000lbs loaded to the gunwalls! For sure she's a big beast.

FYI - the Nav is one of the RAAF's finest and most experienced, and was one half of the RAAF's F-111 display crew last year. Anyone who was at Avalon 05 would have no doubt admired their exploits.

Magoo

W800i

19th Jul 2006, 07:19

Magoodotcom

19th Jul 2006, 07:24

Yep I agree with Magoo re the 05 F111 avalon display. Awesome. Looking forward to next years show!
Just on the 05 Avalon show, the RAAF F-18 appeared to cut short its display on the sunday of Avalon 05 with fire trucks in attendance. I havent read a cause for that any where. Ayone know what happened?

The jet's redundant FCS was stuffing around, and after a week of 'airshowing' and the system slowly degrading, the pilot played it safe and knocked it off early rather than press on and potentially break something. Another example of good airmanship.

Magoo

nzmarty

19th Jul 2006, 08:19

i though the pig hd a fuel dump system? why fly round for hours burning gas? more like flying round hoping for the undercarriage to fix itself!!:)

Bangkokeasy

19th Jul 2006, 08:19

I was also at Avalon 05. The F111 was one thing, but the one that blew me away was the New Zealand air force 757. I didn't know you were supposed to be able to stall turn a 757!

Taildragger67

19th Jul 2006, 08:25

i though the pig hd a fuel dump system? why fly round for hours burning gas? more like flying round hoping for the undercarriage to fix itself!!:)

a) boys in the sim figuring out what to do;
b) less nasty liquid to fall onto Moreton Bay and get the locals riled.

Pass-A-Frozo

19th Jul 2006, 08:47

FYI - the Nav is one of the RAAF's finest and most experienced

tut tut tut.. they aren't called Nav's anymore.. they are Air Combat Officers now... (along with Air Defence and Airborne Electronics officers).

No nav is allowed to where the half brevet now either.. it's a shame they lost there identity with the whole double wing thing.. :uhoh:

Will Hung

19th Jul 2006, 08:58

Quality aviating that ! And only 70 hours flying experience !! Well done cobber.

F/O Bloggs

19th Jul 2006, 09:12

frozo-
"tut tut tut.. they aren't called Nav's anymore.."

We aren't called "Pilots" any more, now it is "SKYGOD-GALAXY VOYAGER"

nzmarty- The boys were in the sim to help come up with the best method of bringing it in.

Magoodotcom

19th Jul 2006, 09:28

tut tut tut.. they aren't called Nav's anymore.. they are Air Combat Officers now... (along with Air Defence and Airborne Electronics officers).
No nav is allowed to where the half brevet now either.. it's a shame they lost there identity with the whole double wing thing.. :uhoh:

Warns was wearing his Nav's brevet on the news this morning?!?!? :=

Magoodotcom

19th Jul 2006, 09:29

i though the pig hd a fuel dump system? why fly round for hours burning gas? more like flying round hoping for the undercarriage to fix itself!!:)

Three hours of fuel gives you three hours of options to work on. Dump an hour or two of it, and suddenly you have fewer options! :rolleyes:

Magoo

Shitsu_Tonka

19th Jul 2006, 09:40

but the one that blew me away was the New Zealand air force 757

The 757 part of your sentence is redundant.

Considering that fact, this aircraft has to fulfill Strategic as well as Combat Roles - that is why they practice these manouevres no doubt.

(The ANZ fleet form the reserve squadron)

Sich a putty the glory daze uf thuh strickmister und thuh skyhook are pissed.

[Dons Hud Het]

W800i

19th Jul 2006, 10:25

I agree with you Bangkokeasy the 757 routine was something to see. I wasnt videoing it until half way through their routine as I have to admit I thought that it would be boring. Man was I wrong. Those kiwis certainly through it around!!!

Going Boeing

19th Jul 2006, 10:32

TruBlu351

19th Jul 2006, 12:49

Giuseppe for CAF!
Obviously, I'd put your success down to the skilled instruction you received during IFC :hmm:.
Well done

Crap! It was that superior instruction at 2FTS!! :}

Yeah, he's got my vote too!

trashie

19th Jul 2006, 21:34

No, the aircraft was not just out of heavy servicing that is done by Boeing Australia, Boeing Boeing. It had however I believe, been serviced by the line maintenance.

Dave The Snail

19th Jul 2006, 23:42

Magoodotcom

20th Jul 2006, 01:02

Rumour that I heard is that particular pig had just come out of heavy maintenance - if true then someone will be running for cover.
Heavy maintenance I believe is done by a subsidiary of Air NZ Engineering Services.

Heavy maintenance is done by Boeing Australia, but this jet had logged almost 300 hours since its last DM.

So, wrong and....wrong!

Magoo

Magoodotcom

20th Jul 2006, 01:05

Yep, Mr Warner no doubt did an outstanding job supporting his new pilot - a testament to both his character and his training - what a nice bloke.

My questions are these:

1. Did the cable & tape from the arresting system run out to its full length?
2. If not, what might have happened in the event that the pig kept going? What would have given way at that (low) speed? The tape, cable or hook/aircraft?
3. What damage was done to the runway? How long was/is it closed for? How did they move the pig? I don't believe they have the cranes/trucks on bases for this type of event.

Dave The Snail

1. & 2. They had the option to bang out if the cable failed or they failed to take it. It was not considered an option to belly land without it for fear of fire and/or loss of control.
3. It's still on the runway this morning, but will likely be removed this arvo. Damage to pavement is expected to be superficial, although cable system is probably now a throw away item!

Magoo

Dave The Snail

20th Jul 2006, 01:35

Magoo

Thanks for the reply.

The arrestor systems are pretty tough (I did work with them for awhile at Williamtown years ago) - they are made to take exactly that sort of event. From the footage, I can't really tell whether or not the tape/cable was pulled to its full length. If it wasn't, it should live to see another day.

Keg

20th Jul 2006, 03:14

.. they aren't called Nav's anymore.. they are Air Combat Officers now... (along with Air Defence and Airborne Electronics officers).

What happened to 'non-pilot officer aircrew'! :rolleyes: A mate is a qualified FC (with the USAF) and was not happy when the whole 'full wing' thing came in. He was more than happy with the half wing with FC on it.

..
No nav is allowed to where the half brevet now either..

I'll have to update my Manual of Dress. It still shows that the half wing is OK if you qualified pre 1 Dec 98!?!? Has there been a later directive saying that Nav's had to convert to the full wing? I also thought that former airmen such as Engineers could continue to wear their previous brevet rather than convert to the full wing brevet for non pilot officer aircrew?!?!?!

For those that are unsure what we're talking about, picture the 'normal' RAAF wing with a Southern Cross in the middle of the laurel wreath instead of RAAF.

The old wings looked like:

http://images.google.com.au/images?q=tbn:gW9dDF-hVPzUPM:www.diggerhistory.info/images/clangley/nav7.jpg

You can find a piccie of the new wing at:

www.worldofmilitarywings.com

Follow the links to 'Australia' and then go to 'Modern Air Crew'. Not all the information about the 'officer air crew' is correct.

soldier of fortune

20th Jul 2006, 03:48

just wondering exactly what happened-
did the F111 loose a nose wheel while on the take off role?-did the wheel or wheels come off?- did the aircraft nose wheels run over FOD on the rwy causing a failure - what exactly happend??????:confused:

Fris B. Fairing

20th Jul 2006, 06:30

Seems we all got it wrong. According to the Brisbane "Courier-Mail", its purpose is to "act as a hand brake on the plane".

dmussen

20th Jul 2006, 06:37

Congrats to all involved.
Flying on an Aardvark with nothing but the hook on the ground is a truely class act so top marks to both Jockey and Nav (I don't care if the title has been changed).
Lotto tickets and beer would have been the call last night.

Buster Hyman

20th Jul 2006, 06:49

did the aircraft nose wheels run over FOD on the rwy causing a failure

Bloody hell! Don't tell me there was a Continental DC10 in the vicinity?:eek:

Bevan666

20th Jul 2006, 07:11

Some pics, not mine I dont know who to credit for them...

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/F111/000181742_03_081.jpg

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/F111/000181742_03_085.jpg

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/F111/000181742_03_090.jpg

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/F111/000181742_05_070.jpg

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/F111/000181742_05_084.jpg

Bevan..

601

20th Jul 2006, 07:46

Didn't know that the F111 could follow terrain that low ;)

cirrus driver

20th Jul 2006, 08:28

Bevan.
Those pics were unclassified and release by the RAAF .

Cirrus

nzmarty

20th Jul 2006, 08:56

Three hours of fuel gives you three hours of options to work on. Dump an hour or two of it, and suddenly you have fewer options! :rolleyes:
Magoo

i id know that - i was just teasing. the pix on page 2 are simply awesome, and will be something they remember and tell stories about for ever

Pass-A-Frozo

20th Jul 2006, 09:12

It still shows that the half wing is OK if you qualified pre 1 Dec 98!?!? Has there been a later directive saying that Nav's had to convert to the full wing? I also thought that former airmen such as Engineers could continue to wear their previous brevet rather than convert to the full wing brevet for non pilot officer aircrew?!?!?!

Shaky Shep put something out a week or so ago.. something about
"All navs wear the double wing from now on.." ..

then he said something about Cooee .

Keg

20th Jul 2006, 09:30

Thanks PAFie. Appreciate the info. ROFLMAO @ cooee comment.

Another amendment to make but one less thing to teach the ants. :ok:

brucekabuce

20th Jul 2006, 10:47

Joke Joyce Shows how good are current airforce is here in Australia, i thought a piper seminole was bad enough apprantly not i guess.

I think it is 'apprant' that you should stick to piper seminoles..is it school holidays again?

Woomera

Taildragger67

20th Jul 2006, 11:25

Great shots Bevan.

Thing looks like it's doing mach 2 even when bellied!!

Anyone got any ideas why we call them 'Pigs' in Oz?

Maybe Milt'll know...

gliderboy

20th Jul 2006, 11:25

Not even worth replying to the idiot above (the "bruce" character that is):=

Just ignore and it will go away.

Awesome photos:D

Oz_in_oz

20th Jul 2006, 11:32

Joke Joyce Shows how good are current airforce is here in Australia, i thought a piper seminole was bad enough apprantly not i guess, Don't airforce boys do walk arounds on there planes? I guess it comes down to poor training? that right
Good point - maybe they didn't notice that the wheel was not there, and didn't pick up that they needed full power to taxi! I think Bruce is right on the ball, and we must look at the training regime right now!

oldm8

20th Jul 2006, 12:06

and was one half of the RAAF's F-111 display crew last year

I love that one, what was his job? flicking the dump and burn switch I guess.

control snatch

20th Jul 2006, 12:25

Sing it with me lads:

Piggies they fly so looooooooooooooooooooooow

Victor India

20th Jul 2006, 12:42

brucekabuce

20th Jul 2006, 13:09

And you were there when he did the pre flight?

You know for a fact he just 'didn't notice' wheel nuts missing?

You are certain it wasn't a failure caused by metal fatigue that allowed the wheel to fall off?

You appear to me to have idiot corner all to yourself.:mad:

One more post like this one was and you get a rest.:ugh:

Woomera

Victor India

20th Jul 2006, 13:24

Sorry bruce... I've really missed the point of your post. I'd suggest seeking some editorial help...

Nighty night... :zzz:

This was all that was required...although I feel your pain:E

Woomera

Victor India

20th Jul 2006, 13:33

My My Woomera... you do stay up late! Good to see rancid content being vetted at all hours of the day. Cheers!

VI:D

We live to serve :ok:

Late night Woomera

nomorecatering

20th Jul 2006, 13:48

So whats the story with the airframe. Is it a right off??

As an offside note, just what does the RIO or WSO do during an air display. I guess as a lookout, height monitor etc, just a wild guess.

Bleve

20th Jul 2006, 21:24

Why the nickname pig ?

Well pigs are big fat things, with large snouts and they grovel around in the dirt. :)

Oz_in_oz

20th Jul 2006, 21:31

I read posts by Bwooce and Oz and thought to myself "idiots". I almost got hot around the collar that such idiots post here... then I thought I'd try to just ignore them because they're obviously hopeless in their own endeavours and should be ignored... but I failed hopelessly.

VI :yuk:

I know how you feel but in the interests of even handed moderating:ok:

Woomera

Hey Victor - sorry to get you riled up! My post was meant to be an obvious sarcastic dig at Bwooce. I guess you took it seriously - I most certainly do not agree with Bwooce comments about training (I am in that "regime" to which I refer). Again - my apologies if I have offended you. I guess I'll have leave my attempts at cynicism for verbal communication rather than the written form - the written form does not pass on sometimes.

Cheers

Oz

Buster Hyman

20th Jul 2006, 22:28

Late night Woomera
Is that like Big Brother up late? ...:bored: ...Eeeeoouuuwww:yuk:

As for Bwuce...give him a break guys...it's hard to type with one hand.:hmm:

gyro

20th Jul 2006, 23:44

So how far did the errant wheel go.....?

notmyC150v2

21st Jul 2006, 00:07

They said on the news last night that the wheel fell off because a "pin" was put in the wrong way around.

Allowing for journalistic idiocy, does anyone with experience know if the failure of one "pin" put in the right way or otherwise could cause such a failure?

brucekabuce

21st Jul 2006, 00:52

THERE YOU GO POOR MAINTENANCE WHAT A JOKE LETS HOPE THE PILOTS ARNT TAUGHT BY THE SAME TEACHERS THE LAMES ARE!!!!

notmyC150v2

21st Jul 2006, 00:57

Bruce, I know not whence you came nor do I care to learn. Regardless, please be ever so kind as to pull your idiotic head in.

It was a question meant to ascertain whether the journo's know what they are talking about and not an opportunity for mindless twits to spout vomit on our Airforce.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

brucekabuce

21st Jul 2006, 01:00

"notmyC150v2"

Get ur facts right then YOUR THE ONE NOW STARTING RUMORS!!!:=

Woomera

21st Jul 2006, 01:13

Bruce is now taking a 5 day rest to refect on his attitude.

Nobody goes to work intending to make a mistake so even IF the outcome of the investigation shows someone did it is not grounds for the childish posts by brucekabuce.

As for slagging the crew I would suspect AFCs have been awarded for less.

This Woomera, and I suspect the whole Woomera team, is very impressed by the airmanship displayed.

Woomera

Woomera

21st Jul 2006, 01:52

Absoloodle:;)

Very cool flying indeed, dunno what his "nic" is but he was awarded the title "Iceman" by son and heir and his mates.

Landing by curvature of the earth is not an opportunity many of us get to perform, especially in front of 20 gazillion people, although I suspect that they were the very last thing on his mind.:ok:

Maintenance? Sh!t happens, it is the lessons that you learn from it that is the real issue.:D

Another Woomera.

Victor India

21st Jul 2006, 02:21

Agree entirely with the Woomerae!

Oz - sorry I missed your obvious sarcasm - as I admitted, I was struggling to avoid getting 'warm' around the collar after bwuce's post. Keep up the good work in that 'regime'!

VI :ok:

Brian Abraham

21st Jul 2006, 02:53

I do know some good Bruces even though the name has acquired a certain status in the field of comedy, and I think I now know from where that status was derived.

An outstanding display of flying skill Peter Komar, paricularly for one so new and speaks volumes for the quality of training received. :D And for Bruce, even if the crew are found to have in some way contributed to the event, they would not be the first and will not be the last. := In fact I've yet to come across an individual in my long life who has not made a cock up of some sort. I bet even Woomera would put his hand up to a few - might have to ply him with a few beers first though. :p

Toluene Diisocyanate

21st Jul 2006, 03:27

I do know some good Bruces even though the name has acquired a certain status in the field of comedy, and I think I now know from where that status was derived.

"BRUUUUUCE"

"Yesssss"

"PIIIIIIIISSS ORFFF!!:E

Woomera

21st Jul 2006, 03:59

That Woomera

Could not agree more. An absolute text book landing!!!

And if the rumour mill is correct, that young lad had less than 100 hours total time and only very recently completed his Pig endorsement.

A credit to the lad - and to his RAAF training! :D :D

Sunny Woomera

The_Cutest_of_Borg

21st Jul 2006, 06:33

That Woomera
less than 100 hours total time ! :D :D
Sunny Woomera

The current RAAF pilots course is about 220 hours, plus I assume neophyte pig drivers still do the fighter intro?

I read he has about 70 pig hours; he certainly would not be let loose in one with less than 100 hours total.

Pass-A-Frozo

21st Jul 2006, 07:31

Why the nickname pig ?

Well pigs are big fat things, with large snouts and they grovel around in the dirt. :)

The yanks nicknamed it "The Pig" because they couldn't spell aardvark :E

Chimbu chuckles

21st Jul 2006, 07:36

LOL:D

Why do the yanks go to war so often?

Well it is one way to teach geography:ugh: :E

oldhasbeen

21st Jul 2006, 08:08

" Nobody goes to work intending to make mistakes....". It that were the case, we wouldn't have a parliament!!:eek:

dmussen

21st Jul 2006, 08:11

The original nic was Aardvark but after a shocking debut in Vietnam it got the new nic Pig. The RAAF got F4s to tide them over.
That aside may I say that training the way it is done in the armed forces has enabled many people to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. In this respect I include Moi (Ex RAF so same deal). The young man who flew on in the way he did deserves a medal.
To all those pulled up by Woomera - Get a life.

Magoodotcom

21st Jul 2006, 08:25

Absoloodle:;)
Very cool flying indeed, dunno what his "nic" is but he was awarded the title "Iceman" by son and heir and his mates.
'Guisseppe' and 'Warns' is how they're currently known - probably soon to change to 'Iceman' and 'Maverick' or similar! :\

"You're still dangerous, but you can be my wingman anytime!"

"Bullsh!t, you can be mine!" :}

Magoo

P.S....someone else asked where the wheel ended up. Well, let's just say there's one very second hand looking Falcon in the Boeing carpark! :D

Wiley

21st Jul 2006, 09:15

Anyone in the know care to give us all some details of that first disastrous USAF F111 deployment to Vietnam? (I think, to be more accurate, it was actually to Thailand.)

I understand it was a shocker - by any standards - with not very many survivors from that first mission, (and few, if none from enemy action). And it was all totally avoidable because the shortcomings of the TFR when encountering heavy tropical thunderstorms had all been clearly detailed in a report that was so highly classified that some REMF in Washington considered it was "too classified" to be passed on to the poor sods who took the aircraft into combat for the first time.

As soon as their replacements were made aware of the problem and knew what to do to avoid it, the aircraft performed very well, many said brilliantly, but all too many of the crews on that first mission died totally unnecessarily, and long before they even got within a bull's roar of their targets.

Back to the subject to subject of the thread, let me add my hearty well done to the boggie Pig driver.

OZBUSDRIVER

21st Jul 2006, 09:24

Seeing as Pig wheels are rather large round floaty looking thingies. It would be something to see the looks on any observers that happened to see that thingy heading for the carpark at better than 100kts. Barnes Wallace comes to mind:E

'Guisseppe' and 'Warns' If you guys read these posts. That was some display of airmanship. I reckon you guys are much happier that you didn't have to use the rocket powered dinghy.

Magoodotcom

21st Jul 2006, 11:26

Anyone in the know care to give us all some details of that first disastrous USAF F111 deployment to Vietnam? (I think, to be more accurate, it was actually to Thailand.)

Seems you may have answered your own question...???

I understand it was a shocker - by any standards - with not very many survivors from that first mission, (and few, if none from enemy action). And it was all totally avoidable because the shortcomings of the TFR when encountering heavy tropical thunderstorms had all been clearly detailed in a report that was so highly classified that some REMF in Washington considered it was "too classified" to be passed on to the poor sods who took the aircraft into combat for the first time.
As soon as their replacements were made aware of the problem and knew what to do to avoid it, the aircraft performed very well, many said brilliantly, but all too many of the crews on that first mission died totally unnecessarily, and long before they even got within a bull's roar of their targets.

The initial Combat Lancer deployment was a bunch of six early production F-111As sent to SEA to virtually do an OT&E in theatre. Three were lost in the first few months; one to a TFR related issue, one to a suspected structural failure of the horizontal stab, and wreckage of the third has never been found. During the deployment, the aircraft proved to have remarkable range and accuracy compared the legacy F-105s and F-4Cs, and because of its TFR and (relatively) smokeless turbofan engines, the NVA dubbed the F-111'the whispering death'! The remaining three aircraft returned to the US (Nellis I think?) for more development work which also addressed some sub-standard contractor's work on the wing carry-through box and pivots.

In the second deployment in 1972, dubbed Constant Guard V, more than 4000 missions were flown for the loss of eight aircraft; four to enemy fire, one to a landing gear failure, one to a mid-air collision, and two to unknown causes. Four of the COnstant Guard V aircraft were transferred to the RAAF as attrition replacements and converted to F-111C standard in 1982.

Magoo

Lord Snot

21st Jul 2006, 11:39

So just how many aircraft is it, then, that have supposedly been "dubbed the Whispering Death" by a thoroughly demoralised enemy........?? :rolleyes: It started with the F4U4....

Magoodotcom

21st Jul 2006, 11:41

So just how many aircraft is it, then, that have supposedly been "dubbed the Whispering Death" by a thoroughly demoralised enemy........?? :rolleyes: It started with the F4U4....

I wasn't there, but I doubt the NVA were demorialised...they held the upper hand for most of the war after all!

Besides, being held in the same company as the F4-U is pretty high praise indeed!

Pinky the pilot

21st Jul 2006, 11:54

P.S....someone else asked where the wheel ended up. Well, let's just say there's one very second hand looking Falcon in the Boeing carpark!
Hmmm, hope that there is no problem for the car owner explaining that one to his insurance company!:uhoh: :eek: :{ :(
And well done those men!:ok:

Taildragger67

21st Jul 2006, 12:32

P.S....someone else asked where the wheel ended up. Well, let's just say there's one very second hand looking Falcon in the Boeing carpark! :D

Reminds one of the Land Cruiser in a Darwin panel-beaters which was taken out by a Hornet's Sidewinder... (Was that credited as a 'kill' for the driver?? :} )

Re references to 'mistakes' - if it's intended, then by definition it's not a mistake :eek: . Let's just wait and see the outcome of the review - and learn from it.

Agree with a Woomera post at the end of page 4 - very impressive airmanship, boggie or not.

Suggested new nickname for "Guiseppe" - how 'bout "Sparkman" or maybe "Beerman" (belly landing -> belly -> gut -> beergut -> beer - geddit? :ok: )

The_Cutest_of_Borg

21st Jul 2006, 12:34

Combat losses can be found here...

http://www.f-111.net/combat/index.htm

A friend of mine's father was killed in one of the very early prangs that was TFR related. The story, which is quite amazing in some respects, is related here.

http://www.f-111.net/A-66-042/index.htm

He is heading back to that mountain for the third and final time next month, apparently 98% of the wreckage is still sitting there like it arrived yesterday.

Hempy

21st Jul 2006, 13:49

So just how many aircraft is it, then, that have supposedly been "dubbed the Whispering Death" by a thoroughly demoralised enemy........?? :rolleyes: It started with the F4U4....
was that before or after the Beaufighter? :} F4U was "Whistling Death" (which is perhaps a more appropriate nickname for the Pig as well:cool: )

gaunty

21st Jul 2006, 14:01

Despite its age, I still think it is the sexiest and most potent piece of gear ever built.:ok:

There has never been nor is there likely to be anything again that has the overall capability and versatility of this aircraft.:cool:

IMHO were it not for the "need" for the manufacturers to "sell" ever more numbers of whizbangs to replace "obsolete" types this aircraft or an lighter and more efficient evolution of it, would still be on the production line.

Certainly for Australias unique problems and roles I haven't seen any one aircraft that can match its multirole capacity. :D But then I dont run the ADF or order Kaman Helo's:}

weasil

21st Jul 2006, 16:15

nor is there likely to be anything again that has the overall capability and versatility of this aircraft.:cool:

C'mon mate. That's a fairly broad statement. You really think they'll never make something better?

Hempy

21st Jul 2006, 16:27

C'mon mate. That's a fairly broad statement. You really think they'll never make something better?

probably not with the same sex appeal http://www.jandysbooks.com/pixcomp/betheart.gif

Buster Hyman

21st Jul 2006, 16:29

Would that mean the Huey was the Stuttering Death?

GreenKnight121

22nd Jul 2006, 01:01

"I overheard a reporter that was also watching say "Oh is that it" as she turned and walked away. I asked her what she meant and she said how no-one was hurt, no one would be interested. I pointed out how lucky the pilot was but she simply didn't care :{ :{ :{"

Reminds me of the 1984 song about TV News announcers by Don Henley (formerly of the Eagles) Dirty Laundry:

"See the Bubbleheaded bleach-blonde, she comes on at five...
She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye...
It's interesting when people die!
Give us Dirty Laundry!"

:yuk:
:mad: reporters!

Pass-A-Frozo

22nd Jul 2006, 01:47

There has never been nor is there likely to be anything again that has the overall capability and versatility of this aircraft.:cool:

I dunno.. I reckon they might have something better in the year 3145..:}

gaunty

22nd Jul 2006, 03:12

Skip Undo/Hempy beat me to it. yeah the Beau came to me in the middle of the night. My next door neighbour as a kid flew one during the war, he and dad (Lancs) flew in different theatres, but I remember dad had great deal of respect for the Beau as a warfighter. And I remember it as the Whispering Death too.

Dad is in a RAAFA Estate, terrific organisation, and runs the workshop, couple of diehards have recently finished a Beaufighter replica for hanging in the Community centre to replace an exceptionally detailed one that simply disappeared one day. Stolen is the word, they must have been well organised becasue you couldn't just throw it in the back of the station wagon.

It wouldn't last 30 seconds in a knife fight with any of the fighter opposition it is likely to encounter in SE Asia.
you're probably right, especially with some of the high alpha stuff around, but first they have to see it and then catch it. And besides we've got em they haven't.
I understand they aquitted themselves very well in the first Gulf War.
They may have better look down radar now but they have to be up there to see it.
Besides you ensure you dont get into a knife fight in the first place.

Hit and run?

In any event I dont think we are planning/expecting a prolonged engagement which we couldn't sustain in any event, take out the CCC and deny them the use of their airfields.
I'm no tactician not even a tacticians a'hole, so I'm only guessing, but I'm sure our boys have got it covered as well as they are able with the equipment they have immediately to hand.

I guess what I am saying is that the original concept for the aircraft is still valid and overall not much has changed in the scenarios that haven't or cant be handled with the upgrades and I spose I am of the Old school that is struggling with the exponential rise in costs for incremental increase in "benefits". The US military industrial complex (that should show my age) has/is trying to change the game, to not whose smartest, but whose got the most moolah.

Aussies are exceptionally good at and are highly respected internationally for being the smartest with the use of limited resources.:ok:

Dr Strangelove is still my favourite movie, "Duck and cover" is still burned in my brain and the Cold War isn't over just changed shape and colour.:{

Brian Abraham

22nd Jul 2006, 03:47

...they held the upper hand for most of the war after all!

Off thread. Magoodotcom, politically yes, but militarily no, particularly following Tet 68.

Gnadenburg

22nd Jul 2006, 04:13

I guess what I am saying is that the original concept for the aircraft is still valid and overall not much has changed in the scenarios that haven't or cant be handled with the upgrades.

The original concept of the F111, probably peaked in the early 70's during Linebacker Two. F111's operated unescorted, at night, using low level and high speed to defeat an early generation Soviet air defence system.

Late 70's, early 80's, the F111 role was being exposed as Soviet technology advanced. Stealth the logical counter technology. It was still, a big plane, with lots of fuel and bombs. Enjoying a swansong in the Libyan raid and in the Gulf War One; against third world air defence systems.

But it's airshow dump and burn routine sends fear through the hearts of our enemies!

Magoodotcom

22nd Jul 2006, 04:24

But it's airshow dump and burn routine sends fear through the hearts of our enemies!

I was once told by 'someone who should know' that the ADF had to alert NORAD in advance that they were going to be performing a dump and burn, as apparently it sends their infra-red satellites nuts! :}

Magoo

Wiley

22nd Jul 2006, 05:44

I guess what I am saying is that the original concept for the aircraft is still valid and overall not much has changed in the scenarios that haven't or cant be handled with the upgrades and I spose I am of the Old school that is struggling with the exponential rise in costs for incremental increase in "benefits".I believe Gaunty is right.

If you ask the average Oz man in the street, he'll tell you the TroubleWun has been "a disaster" and "a total waste of money", ('coz that's what he's been told almost non stop by the Oz media ever since the aircraft was ordered). Despite this urban myth "factoid", it has probably been (and continues to be) among the best bang for buck spent by the Dept of Defence in many a long year.

Detractors will say it's been a waste because it's never been used. People who know what they're talking about will say it's been worth all the money spent on it for exactly the same reason. In a region that hasn't always been anywhere near as stable as many Australians believe it has been - and shows every sign of becoming even less so with the rise in Muslim fundamentalism - the F111 has been for Australia a "poor man's nuke", a weapon capable of reaching and doing serious damage to the very heart of a neighbour who it is not now and was not then politically correct to name.

To be totally politically incorrect, it has been the 111 on more than one occasion that has kept such unnamed neighbours from becoming more adventurous in moments of crisis - and there have been more such moments of crisis than many people believe.

The horribly expensive replacement JSF will have one third the range and far less bomb load without a huge (and potentially dangerous for all concerned) commitment to aerial refuelling very far forward of the Oz coastline - a commitment any future government is far less likely to make in a moment of crisis because of the political as well as operational risks than sending off a lone F111 low level from Darwin to do its stuff.

So the people who say there's unlikely to be anything better in the future are right, if they add the proviso "there's unlikely to be anything better in the future in the Australian inventory."

Hempy

22nd Jul 2006, 06:34

I believe Gaunty is right.
If you ask the average Oz man in the street, he'll tell you the TroubleWun has been "a disaster" and "a total waste of money", ('coz that's what he's been told almost non stop by the Oz media ever since the aircraft was ordered). Despite this urban myth "factoid", it has probably been (and continues to be) among the best bang for buck spent by the Dept of Defence in many a long year.
I agree with your second premise, but I think most red blooded Aussie blokes (most that I know, anyway) would tell you that they think that the F-111 is "an awesome beast" and "worth every cent for the D & B at the 2000 Olympics alone". Don't give the Oz media more credit than they deserve.

While the Pig has probably been technically obsolete for 15 years, I'm tipping the "Kamarians" up north wouldn't see a 100' over water approach coming - but they'd certainly hear it depart. And they know it.

gaunty

22nd Jul 2006, 07:48

Hempy

While the Pig has probably been technically obsolete for 15 years, I'm tipping the "Kamarians" up north wouldn't see a 100' over water approach coming - but they'd certainly hear it depart. And they know it.my point exactly.

We are only capable of prosecuting a regional war, so we only need regional defense capability. The Pig is the perfect answer.

The moment we go JOINT SF we become reliant on all sorts of other assets and ouside help, which may or may not be available at the exact moment we need it.

I might not remember much from my lessons on warfare in the CAF but I do remember that the primary role of our Air Force was to project force, quickly and accurately where it hurts most. Air superiority is won on the ground?? Its more effective to take out their CCC and fighter fields first up than try to defend our coastline against them.
I suspect our chaps know exactly how and where, and it doesn't depend on the F18s.

Its great having friends and allies, but when the chips are down, we have always found that we are on our own.

Chimbu chuckles

22nd Jul 2006, 07:49

Personally never been involved with F111 or any similar but have flown with several fellas who were involved with bringing them out from the US when new and who flew them for the next couple of decades.

Their answer to the 'their day is over, replace em with JSF' media/Govt rhetoric is "UTTER BS!"

The most likely scenario for future use is PNG IMO.

When AIDS has gutted the PNG population of the middle 30% leaving only the very young and the elderly and that country is an even bigger shambolic disaster than it is now the Indons will covet it and Australia will have to go back and administer it while providing a big enough stick to keep the Indons over 'their' side of the border.

I truly think this is a possible scenario within the next 10 years or so.

I think a (re engined?) F111 with all it's capabilities is more than the Indons could cope with. They may eventually aquire modern fighters with all the bells and whistles but I would bet London to a brick they will never have the pilots capable of using them fully...let alone on dark moonless nights at low level in terrain.

I believe it was Gnadenburg who suggested the F111 was our best air defence fighter and I agree...when they are used to crater Indon runways and destroy Indon fighters on the ground. Combined with an uncanny ability to whistle up to a tiny Indon Island in the Timor Sea at 0300LT and destroy a terrorist training camp laser designated by a SAS team before running for home...and never above a few hundred feet except for tossing the bomb...they are as useful as they ever were in 'The Cold War'.

But all that is for nought because the vested interests will see them scrapped instead, irrespective.

Much better to spend BILLIONS replacing them with less capable (in a local area context) aircraft than spend 100,200 or 300 million making them better than new.:ugh:

We don't need stealth we need payload/range and TFR (first generation stealth). Surely with modern digital cockpits and newer engines burning less fuel (even better payload/range) the F111 could be born again.

JSF is 'toys for boys', F111 is a bomb truck...and I think that is what we will need.

Plus they are one SEXY looking aircraft...JSF is BUTT UGLY.:ok:

gaunty

22nd Jul 2006, 08:07

Chuckles :ok:

BTW does this Block No F111 have the MkVII or MkVIII Thronomister, I seem to recall the later mod version was required, to prevent things falling off. It just may have been missed in the latest upgrade.? :E

Wiley

22nd Jul 2006, 10:30

I hate to sound like part of the chorus in a mutual admiration society, but chimbu and gaunty are both speaking a lot of sense.

History isn't taught in depth in most Oz schools anymore because most of what happened in our past is so terribly politically incorrect to today’s education elite. But it has a horribly bad habit of repeating itself, and if any one of a dozen possible regional scenarios comes to pass in the years to come, I can see the Pig playing a similar role to 'Hermes' and 'Ark Royal' in the Falklands set-to. (I should add “or not playing, depending on when said sh-one-t hits the fan.”)

If the Argies had waited just one more year before invading the Falklands, 'Hermes' would have been in the breaker's yard, well on its way to becoming ten million razor blades, and 'Ark Royal' would have been sold off to the RAN, leaving the Brits without even a shadow of the capability to re-take the islands. The UK would simply have had no other option other than protesting the invasion in the UN – and all know where that would have got them.

Similarly, if the Kamarians wait until the last remaining Pig is on a post as a gate guard at Amberley's main entrance, they'll have all sorts of options available to them that they know they don’t have now.

Two things are about as certain as you can be in such prognostications –

(a) They will be able to disregard many of their current worst fears when they know they’ll only have to deal with the JSF, and.
(b) When Australia finds itself faced with a major regional crisis, just as in 1942, at least in the short term, we’ll be on our own and forced to rely only upon ourselves. (If you’ll allow me a momentary huge thread drift, I find myself wondering how we’ll manage that with 4.9 million of our citizens - nearly one quarter of our population - holding dual citizenship.)

Too many people forget that EVERYONE ELSE in Ronnie RAAF, from the lowliest General Hand to the Tom Cruise clone in his F18, has, in the long run, only one real role - to provide an organisation that supports that one (currently) two man crew in a strike aircraft whose task is to put a bomb onto a target of our political leaders' choosing.

With the passing of the Pig, the choice of targets available to our political leaders will be a lot smaller than it currently is. And in my humble opinion, this will embolden the current and future leadership of more than one Kamaria in our region.

zlin77

22nd Jul 2006, 11:55

I believe the reason we acquired F-111's was that during our "confrontation" with Indonesia back in the 60's, when they invaded and occupied Dutch West New Guinea, our government suddenly realised that our English Electric Canberras did not have the range to do a round trip out of Darwin to Jakarta.
So they ordered F-111's to cover this mission profile.

Yawn

22nd Jul 2006, 12:36

The F111 will always be relevant and hard to stop as a strategic bomber. Why speed.

Unclassified the F111 is a 700 knot on the deck aircraft; limited to skin friction not thrust/drag. Military speed limit…not telling. For Modern combat aircraft (and not so modern) Mach 2.5 is standard at altitude with no weapons (drag) but find an adversary that has speed at groundlevel with weapons.

A defending aircraft will be faced with two possibilities: engage the 480-540 knot escort (F18/JFS) or the 700+++ knot attacker. The physical size of the area to defend with an F111 is enormous and will greatly deplete any regional airforce who tries this 24/7. Particularly with the new toss weapons.

As for the ageing aircraft program; this is usually a technical fix. For example the fuel tank sealant issue has largely been dealt with using a new less toxic substance. So that budgeted line is now greatly reduced as are many of the avionic issues – replaced with digital technology.

Planners who hind behind concepts such as network technologies, stealth, refueling force multipliers and not the raw physics behind speed, range and low level terrain-shielding risk being exposed when the super technologies do not work as advertised or counter-technologies such as satellite radar coverage are deployed. Counting on the technologies of your opponent staying mute when makeing a 25 year purchasing decision is high risk.

Long live the high speed, long range penetrator. The Russel Office should concentrate on putting the technology into the F111 and not the JSF with 1:1 tanker support and 24/7 AWAC. Who is really going to deploy a 737/A330 in harms way?

What a pity Russel didn't buy the four surplus EWF-111 when being mothballed at 3 USD per kg. No one would have discovered the F-18 EW intergration issue.

gaunty

22nd Jul 2006, 14:48

Wiley/Yawn:ok:

AND

(If you’ll allow me a momentary huge thread drift, I find myself wondering how we’ll manage that with 4.9 million of our citizens - nearly one quarter of our population - holding dual citizenship.) is the REALLY scary bit, we are seeing the results of that on our TV screens at this very moment.

I am at the moment having a struggle with those who have residency and "citizenship" in two countries demanding their "right" to be repatriated to a safer other when it gets hard.

oldm8

22nd Jul 2006, 15:07

Yeah I agree, we need to keep the pig for another 20 years.

Surely it cant be much trouble to integrate an AESA radar and AMRAAM onto the F-111, and JHMCS/ASRAAM would be a piece of piss as well.

I know a RAAF engineer who says it would be relatively easy to incorporate a vectored thrust system too, I am sure with these improvements the Pig could take on anything in the region.

I have heard that aircraft such as the pig are like a good bottle of red, they get better with age. All we need to do is spend a bit of dosh fixing them up and serviceability would be as good as any other platform.

If anyone needs more convincing may i direct your attention to Dr Carlo Kopps writings, he is very well informed. In particular the graphs he produces are a very good snapshot of important stats like internal fuel capacity and clearly show that the pig outclasses anything in the region.

tlf

22nd Jul 2006, 15:41

a) boys in the sim figuring out what to do;
b) less nasty liquid to fall onto Moreton Bay and get the locals riled.

They could have just done the worlds longest dump and burn :)

Gnadenburg

23rd Jul 2006, 03:27

The F111 has been a very effective aircraft for Australia. Those doubting the eventual cost effectiveness of the aircraft, should consider what the proposed alternative was in the early seventies. If F111 failed to make operational status in the RAAF.

Government & the RAAF came up with an alternatively structured, all fighter force. It involved disbanding a Mirage squadron, obtaining another 24 F4's on top of the 24 already leased and a direct purchase of 9 to 12 KC135 tankers.

Twenty four, initially very expensive F111 aircraft, eventually provided cost effective and unequalled regional capability!

Is there another aircraft, that in such small numbers ( 24 ), could provide a modern day deterent to regional ambitions? The F22 is the only aircraft that could 'disturb the Asian psyche' in the way the F111 is purported to have done in the 80's & 90's.

Will the Yanks sell it to us? Beazley no. It would be humiliation for Labor to go down the F22 path because they wouldn't get it without a pro-US foreign policy and troop committment. But John Howard would be able to secure the aircraft for the RAAF.

Perhaps the real fear of the F22 for the Liberal Party, is political. How would Asian nations look at countering an Australian F22 capability? Rhetoric and asymmetric warfare? For example: anti-Australian regional sentiments and building up non-conventional forces or support of ( similar to what the Iranians & Syrians have done to counter Israeli military superiority in Lebanon ). Too hot for Howard?

But the F22 would provide true 80's F111 deterent capability in the region. The aircraft revolutionises all aspects of the counter-air mission- whether it be shooting down the opposition's air forces or launching cruise missiles undetected at fixed strategic targets such as airfields.

Twenty four F22's and a smaller thirty odd F35 or F15E purchase? The RAAF will be lucky to have 60 fighters- but I think their current procrastinations will see them with those numbers anyways! ;)

F22 is a somewhat unbalanced capability- but so was the tankerless RAAF F111 force. Proven technology could eventually bring RAAF structure into balance.

Buster Hyman

23rd Jul 2006, 03:47

Seeing that we've had years of "industry participation", we must surely be in a position to buy the Licence for new build F111's. We can get the software chaps from the Collins Subs to put modern avionics in it (perhaps the Seasprite chaps if they're too busy), maybe we can squeeze the F101 engines into the airframe?

By jingo, I think I've got it!:8:ouch::suspect:

oldm8

23rd Jul 2006, 06:41

Buster

I hear you brother.

I dont care what modern military strategists and the USAF think. Lower and Faster is the way ahead.

It was in favour during the cold war and the principle still holds true today, it is hard to hit an aircraft that is capable of doing 800kts at low level. I have it on good authority that this is the reason why the pig doesnt need a MAWS, because no manpad in existence is capable of chasing it down.

Gnandenburg: I dont understand why we could possibly want the F-22 when we already have a superior platform!! No one can really convince me that with a bit of money and effort by our friends at DSTO, we cant modify the pig to have superior low-observable and radar cross sectional characteristics to the F-22.

oldm8

23rd Jul 2006, 08:52

http://www.ausairpower.net/survivability-2005.png
Now tell me you dont think we should keep the pig!!!

Gnadenburg

23rd Jul 2006, 09:11

But the F22 has got most of that and is in service!!!! With the benefit of a new airframe.

Taking the piss oldm8 :}

The_Cutest_of_Borg

23rd Jul 2006, 09:13

I believe that 25% of the total air force budget goes into keeping the F-111 flying.

Whilst I love the aeroplane, surely we could get better value for money from a newer platform.

Point0Five

23rd Jul 2006, 10:09

Let's not forget the mighty C-130H. It's the real hero of all recent operations and has served the ADF exceptionally well over the years; certainly far better than the crazy, new fangled technology of the J. No idea why they persist with it.

I think that it's clear the ADF needs, no must, continue to invest in upgrading existing systems. The F-111 is our "big stick", and is essential to our continued regional superioritiy. I dunno about this JSF thing, but it's clearly less capable than an F-16; you can tell just by looking at it and its single engine.

P05 BE(hons), MSc, PhD, MIEEE, MAIAA, PEng

Fox3snapshot

23rd Jul 2006, 11:33

I dunno about this JSF thing, but it's clearly less capable than an F-16; you can tell just by looking at it and its single engine.
P05 BE(hons), MSc, PhD, MIEEE, MAIAA, PEng

Ooooooh dear......:hmm:

Buster Hyman

23rd Jul 2006, 12:57

PEng

??:confused:??.....Penguin?

oldm8

23rd Jul 2006, 13:40

I just get sick of all these operational types thinking they know whats best for the RAAF, they have had their heads buried in the operational world too long and cant see the big picture.

By contrast Dr Kopp is arguably better informed and in the best position to have an unbiased point of view. After all he has logged several hours in the F-111 simulator and spoke very favourably about its handling characteristics.

Whilst on the topic of post nominals, Dr Kopp has a large list of them.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~carlo/ckopp.gif

oldm8

23rd Jul 2006, 13:43

Carlo.....the early days, who could have seen it coming.....
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~carlo/AV/8KCAB-2b.jpg

Whizzwheel

23rd Jul 2006, 13:47

Defamation + anonymity = piss funny!

Lord Snot

23rd Jul 2006, 21:50

modify the pig to have superior low-observable and radar cross sectional characteristics to the F-22.
HAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAA............!!! :p :hmm: :rolleyes: :zzz: I like it! I think I could get pissed with you.

but especially:No idea :ok:

25% of the total air force budget goes into keeping the F-111 flying.

Why not increase the budget, then..... Find some cash from less-worthwhile projects. Let's start by reducing the amount of cash spent on chartered vessels being sent to collect "citizens" from other countries who obviously don't really want to live here and when they do, spend their spare time (of which they have a lot) rioting and bashing people at nice beaches.

And there must be an taxpayer-funded I*****c school we could close down? Or a hospital, maybe... all those sick and infirm people holding us back :mad:

Or an orphanage... you get the idea.

Speaking of huge budgets, apparently the US congress is set to approve the F-22 for export so all the tossers who have been salivating over it for years and repeatedly suggesting the RAFF acquire some, might now be in with a chance to beat the meat with a sense of reality.

john_tullamarine

23rd Jul 2006, 22:21

weasil

23rd Jul 2006, 22:27

Buster,
PEng .. Professional Engineer .. not generally in Oz practice .. common in US. Local Oz accreditation via Engineers Australia is CPEng ..Chartered Professional Engineer .. England CEng .... indicates registration standing within the engineering fraternity.
.. and, from the folks who brought you Penguin .. try Ing in the European arena ...

Actually we call them a PFE (pro. flight eng.). And they are not very common over here, some of the cargo companies use them. The 121 passenger carriers who used engineers mostly used new hire pilots for the FE seat. Although perhaps more common than in Australia... it's all relative I suppose.

Taildragger67

24th Jul 2006, 08:32

They could have just done the worlds longest dump and burn :)
Yeah but then you would've had the locals ringing the local radio station, police, army and Aunt Sally to either just whinge or declare that a Pig MUST have been hijacked and was CERTAIN to be flown into their local pub. And the tree-huggers would've been apoplectic.

Would've been fun to see though. But would've cut down the thinking time for the guys in the sim...

john_tullamarine

24th Jul 2006, 11:59

..Weasil .. two kinds of engineer, as it turns out ... PE, CPEng, etc .. relate to the slide rule type with uni degrees who design things with bits of tin (like planes), dirt and stuff (like runways) and wires (like FMSs) ...

Mind you, having worked with the other sort at oh-dark-thirty on dirty approaches with lightning and hills and stuff all around .. the real flight eng with an off the shop floor background is worth his weight in gold at times ... and saved our sorry tails on more than one occasion ..

Critical Reynolds No

25th Jul 2006, 01:14

I didn't know you were supposed to be able to stall turn a 757!

You can't. it was a wing over!!:mad:

Dragon79

25th Jul 2006, 06:14

First time poster long time listener...

This discussion finally made me sign-up and contribute. Hoping I am qualified enough, as I once had a ride in a Sea Hawk.

The F111 debate is one, which I don't believe has thoroughly been examined in the public domain. As one not in the know, and probably don't need to, (apart from the fact that each day I work) the only debate that I have seen is one which resulted in JSF being given the tick and F18 and F111 being waved good buy. No real reason, no real debate.

I think there are a number of other options out there that could provide a better option for replacement.

What about 30 F22 and 65 F18E/F and 12 F18G, and the possibility of a new floating air base for the navy to operate. This is probably in the realms of fantasy, don't worry I am sure the RAN would let the RAAF pilots fly them off and on.

Or 30 F22 and 60 F15X.

Or similarly is it worth looking at taking over 30 F117 from the USAF, I have read that they are looking at retiring this capability, why not acquire these and reserve 6 places for US Pilots, keep them happy, then if they really need them they could re-acquire say 12 after 30 days and the remaining after 60 days notice?

As I have said I have no real operational experience, but I do pay my taxes(most of the time).

Dragon79