Jetstar Safety Concerns

[Sandy Freckle]

From News.com.au

Concern over Jetstar flights
From: By Steve Creedy
July 18, 2006

QANTAS pilots have raised safety concerns over the ability of low-cost carrier Jetstar to fly international routes.

The pilots want the launch of the new Jetstar international services delayed amid anxiety about proposed routes over remote stretches of ocean.
The pilots wrote last month to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority warning that any move to give Jetstar International immediate permission to fly routes that take them up to 180 minutes away from emergency airports would expose the public to "an unacceptable level of risk".

Jetstar is seeking the 180-minute approval, known as extended twin engine operations (ETOPS), so it can fly direct to Honolulu starting later this year.

Qantas, which owns Jetstar, already has the 180-minute approval on the Airbus A330 planes Jetstar International will operate, but the start-up must apply for permission in its own right.

The Australian and International Pilots Association says Jetstar lacks the experience to operate at the maximum ETOPS range and CASA should do a risk assessment and operational safety case before granting approval. It says Jetstar has "limited operational, engineering, maintenance and experience base" and an operational and safety culture that may differ significantly from its parent's.

It says grandfathering Qantas's experience into the new operations would be "highly reckless", noting it took Qantas 14 months to get 180-minute ETOPS for the A330s.

Instead, Jetstar should receive an incremental approval that goes from 90 minutes to 120 minutes and 180 minutes over an extended period. "This graduated approach has been required of operators around the world, including Qantas when they applied for ETOPS approval on their new A330, despite the fact they had a long history of widebody experience with the Boeing 767 type," the letter says.

But Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce yesterday dismissed the association's concerns and the motives behind its letter.

AIPA is taking legal action against Jetstar for refusing to let Qantas pilots continue flying its aircraft on their current pay and conditions.

The association also worries that an agreement between Jetstar and its pilots to fly the new international services on salaries up to $100,000 a year below their Qantas counterparts will be used to erode Qantas pay and conditions.

Mr Joyce said Jetstar already had 120-minute ETOPS on its trans-Tasman A320 services and was working closely with CASA on its new application.

He said Qantas would continue to maintain the aircraft and they would be flown by "some very experienced people".

[Casper]

I understand that there are many pilots within J* with international experience. QF pilots should not expect the regulator to become involved in industrial politics despite a previous experience in the past.

Forget it, AIPA, the horse has bolted.

[lowerlobe]

Casper,

Qantas too had very experienced tech crew when it applied for ETOPS ,many more in fact but it had to wait for 14 months while studies were carried out.

Why is J* any different?

Qantas uses every legal avenue open to it when they are argueing their case so why can't AIPA have the same right....

[Hugh Jarse]

This thread's gonna be a rip-snorter :rolleyes: :8

[Casper]

Did the AIPA voice similar safety concerns when Australian Airlines applied for ETOPS approval?

[ozyozyozy]

QF Engineering will be supporting the 330 ops as is now the case, so, from this point of view the status quo is maintained, if your maintenance is of the required (already proven) standard the rest is not really rocket science is it?

The only thing that will affect ETOPS is a system failure enroute and it does not take much to work out whether to proceed or not from the point of failure does it? Most crews would I am sure not struggle to much with this decision.

Think maybe this is straw clutching at its finest - although, one would be asking the question why Australian had to prove its 180 ability (and only just got it prior to its demise) with full QF engineering support all along and using QF crews?

[PW1830]

ozyetc
The message driven mentality encouraged by new aircraft wolud lead you to believe everything is that simple. Believe it or not there are still occasions when the capt can actually make a decision with large financial implications for his/her company. In the real world of etops things are not always black and white.

[Aussie]

I think they should still go through the same process of approval, not just be granted approval due to the parent company having it.... :ok:

Aussie

[ozyozyozy]

P.W, I would agree that any decision that a pilot or engineer makes every day in his/her job has the potential to cost the company a lot of money or worse. The requirements for new gen aircraft do not change anything - even if the manufacturers are all preaching that thier aircraft dont need this or that. Individal req'mts are all covered in their respective DDG's with respect to failures.

The bottom line is, either the aircraft was dispatched ETOPS or it wasn't and if it was, and an ETOPS relevant failure occured enroute, you would need to make alternate arrangements to satisfy your new limitations.

Whatever cost is carried by the company is irrelevant, you didnt break the jet yourself so you follow the guidelines and put it down or go the long way around.

Or are you saying you make a judgement call yourself outside of these guidelines to save the company money? I would be suprised if you as a proffesional would want to even consider going down that path. (Not saying you do by the way)

Aussie,

CASA is not letting them through free of charge, they have to undergo the same process, except they do not need to wait as long, as, QF has a history with the aircraft and it is still being handled by QF engineering. The part that takes the longest is the reliability figures that need to be shown over a period of time at reduced or NON etops (So, you use the QF figures as these are the same aircraft fixed by the same people). They also need to be able to track ETOPS parts (reason why VB lost theirs) and other things - all this before a pilot steps on-board.

The only difference will be the crews up front and CASA will only be wanting to see that they are appropriately trained to deal with an ETOPS significant failure it does not take as long to tick that box.

Think this is a lot of scare mongering in a last ditch effort really.

[virgindriver]

Just a silly question- why did it take so long to get etops on the QF 330s in the first place? I would have thought the aircraft has been around long enough with other companies to get an idea of how reliable it is...

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Casper, despite AO being set up with QF pilots and QF aeroplanes that the week before had been operating to 180 min ETOPS, AO only ever got 120 minute ETOPS out of CASA.

Why should J* be granted something that AO was not?

In answer to the other question about why it took 14 months to get full 180 minute ETOPS for the QF A330's I believe it was due to them being a unique airframe/engine combination.

[ozyozyozy]

Borg,

AO was issued with 180 a few months before it was wrapped up - don't know why it took so long, maybe the original routes they were doing did not warrant applying for it and then, someone thought they should get it in case some extra routes came up (pre J* thinking) .

The 330's were a different a/f engine combination but an operator still needs to show their own fleet reliability figures, you cant just use some other operators as their maintenance system could be vastly different.

Once again the reason why J* will use QF's reliabilty figures.

[ftrplt]

AO the operation has not wrapped up.

AO was granted 120min ETOPS initially and were only granted 180 in the last few months. It was not a matter of not wanting it or not applying for it; it took that long to get it - 3 years.

[blueloo]

Whoever was on ABC for Jetstar this morning, just used your EBA, to say that all your pilots endorse 160 K per year as salary!

Food for thought:
A graduate at UNi straight out can earn $60K with no experience - they can then go into finance and their income after only a few years will nearly match a Capts 160K

A senior Cabin crew in QF can earn over 100K

A second officer on the 744 can earn 160K


- and I say good luck to them all, if they can negotiate it, then they deserve it.

[ftrplt]

I wonder how long it will take them to get Low Vis approvals; again something that took a long time for AO to achieve.

[lowerlobe]

Casper,
Your right about one thing and that is that AO had to apply for ETOPS as did QANTAS....why should J* be treated any differently and just given it?

[Eagleman]

The JQ ETOPS procedures are not the same as QF.

QF engineering may be oversighting, but JQ have maintenance control.

Notwithstanding the incredible experience the EK pilots will bring to Jerkstar :ooh: , JQ pilots ETOPS is limited to a few crew who operate the Tasman.

CASA will set a tremendous precedent if they grant automatic 180 minutes.

Mind you DJ wont be objecting will they?

[Vee Won Kutt]

BluelooFood for thought:
A graduate at UNi straight out can earn $60K with no experience - they can then go into finance and their income after only a few years will nearly match a Capts 160K

Fair enough. The pay is lower at Jetstar than Virgin, and Virgin are lower than Qantas etc etc. I agree that the wage rot for pilots in Australia is grim and that Jetstars pay is crap in comparison.

Food for thought maybe. However I know plenty of Uni grads earning much less than $80k. Sure there may be many that can pull some big $$$, but most wouldn't, and most would be working much harder than even the pilots at Jetstar.

If you just want to make money then get out of flying, in fact get out of aviation or anything else invloved with travel or tourism. It's an industry that seems to always just scrape by.

I have worked hard in my flying career to get to Eastern. I spent many hours study and many $$$ to back up the study. I left a perfectly good high paying job cleaning public toilets, to take a pay cut and fly aircraft. It took me many years of mopping hanger floors and busting my chops to get were I am now. My brother didn't finish highschool, has no further education, and landed a job off the street selling telecomunications products in a shop - He is permanently employed works 40hrs a week on a set roster and earns just under $50k. Today I got my group certificate and it was just shy of $50k.

I only do it because I enjoy the job, just like most of us. Supply and demand will always work against us as pilots, because being a pilot is more than just a job.

[Bolty McBolt]

EAGLEMAN
QF engineering may be oversighting, but JQ have maintenance control

I think you will find the Jet* Int maintenace work is scheduled by QANTAS maint planning and the QANTAS A330 maint watch will be the point of contact and monitoring/troubleshooting of recuring defects with the regular checks maintenace etc being completed by the same people whom look after the A330 fleet now.

The ex raaf matey club in newcastle (read maint control) while not totally out of the loop of the A330 operation, I doubt they will have much imput on the maintenance side of Jet * Int. They have enough to handle looking after the A320 fleet

But i will stand corrected :ok:

[UNOME]

I believe the main point is the (lack of) experience of the crew.

Flying to 3hrs NZ and flying 12hrs to the middle of the pond are two very different exercises.

Except for the EK crew, none of the guys who awarded themselves and their mates 330 slots have ANY command longhaul widebody experience.

In fact one guy awarded a 330 command was a 320 F/O with no longhaul experience.

Add to this the level of experience of the F/O's they will fly with, (i.e. some kid whose Daddy lent him $35k to fly a jet) and the bells start to ring.

[MENDAERO]

The AO A/C were 120min ETOPS and engineering were required to carry out the ETOPS departure check before EVERY flight, whether the sector was ETOPS or not, in order to prove AO's ETOPS ability. I see no reason for jetstar to get it easy.

[ozyozyozy]

Eagle,

My point was to illustrate why the process can be sped up by CASA. J* may be the owners of the maint control manual but, if anything like AO, it is merely a document that points you back to the QF system of maint (as they are the people doing the work in an already proven system - CASA kinda likes that idea.

The MCM is really only a peice of paper that CASA approves it is the reliability of your operation they really want to see before they issue extended range authorities.

If everyone got over their long haul, short haul, J*, QF ego's you would see that if it was your train set, you would take the good from whatever sets you had if it made playing more fun. So although the execs hate mail line, they do like some parts of what we do, they just won't admit it.

At the end of the day they are just planes going from A to B and this is just a delaying tactic with a lot of un-founded points in the media release.

Everyone needs a job and some may be sitting on shakier ground than others hence the nervousness about the approval - do you think AIPIA is concerned about saftey or trying to put a temporary spanner in the works for J* - what will that ultimately achieve?

[Eagleman]

B McB

I have no difficulty with fast track approvals. I also believe in what is best for the Group. But process and procedure must be matched experience. The Ansett B747 introduction is an good example of CASA not provideing the correct oversight of a "Gung Ho" (but great blokes)operations team. One or two of the CASA inspectors in the melbourne office should have good recall of that incident.

oz

I would think CASA will have difficulty if what you say about NTL maint control is spot on. JQ can outsource the maintenance work. They cannot outsource their authority.

[king oath]

Geoff will be choking on his lobster and french champagne lunch. How dare that nasty AIPA put hurdles in the way of his precious el cheapo airline.

And what will CASA do? Can CASA be taken before the courts to delay the process further assuming they roll over to qantas wishes? And will those public servants put their balls on the line making a call like this based on safety concerns?

Good to see AIPA leaders showing some cojones after all those years of the organisation behaving like a bunch of pussies. You have to smile.

[longjohn]

I can see Geoff's reaction to this now........

Ring Ring

GD - Oh I say Al, seems like we had better roll over on this one and give
the Jetstar International flying to Qantas pilots, after all it is their
birthright!

AJ - No worries GD, we'll just send the yarpies back to the sandpit, oh, and
what should we pay the Qantas boys.

GD - Better make it keen, what about AO rates, that oughta do it.

AJ - OK, well just re- do the business plan based on a 20% increase in pilot
costs, might hurt the bonus a little though!

GD - Yeah, I hear you regarding the bonus, but it looks like we have no
option. Clever boys those AIPA lads.

Click.

Then, sometime later......

Ring Ring

GD. - Hello

AJ - G'day GD, ah you know that pesky little problem we had with the ETOPs
approval?

GD - Yeah, did you get my boys onto it?

AJ - Well we did , but unfortunately it did not solve the problem, you see
CASA pointed out that it did not matter who was crewing the
aircraft, given that it was a different AOC they would only give us
120 minutes ETOPs.

GD - Bloody beaurocrats, I'll call Johnny.

AJ - Yes, well it gets worse, seems that we could not get any experienced
Qantas pilots for AO money, so we ended up training a whole bunch
of F/o's to Captains. This combined with the additional wage bill has
blown our business plan out of the water.

GD - Well f@#k it then, close the bloody thing down, we might as well get
Qantas to do the whole thing. Smart boys those AIPA lads, saw this
one coming.


Dream on fellas. :D

This little publicity stunt will only serve to strengthen the company's resolve to marginalise, destabilise and generally undermine AIPA and its members.

[SkyScanner]

Out of curiosity.. does anyone know how many EK pilots have gone to J*?

[The Mr Fixit]

As a Gingerbeer earwigging this thread I am amazed at you guys taking potshots at you own union, Fk we just ousted the imbeciles running our union and all us look forward to open and accountable dialogue (it will be something new to us). They also said it's about time Engineers and pilots, as the only two certified individuals by a regulatory authority, join together and make the company accountable on it's safety and IR issues.

I mean it think,

The Australian

Pilot's President, Engineer's President sit down to discuss ways to make their associations one.

Yes you may laugh and you may laugh hard but as you do think of that cold shudder that just ran down Dixon's IR manager's spine. :{

The ball is in your court, hit it to the ALAEA :D

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Fixit, you can bet the guys taking potshots aint in AIPA.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Might I suggest the No1 reason Jetstar can be confident of getting rapid 180 minute approval, not twigged by anybody in previous posts, is that there is a whole new management in the CASA Airline branch.
The “Why did we string out the approval--- because we could” mob have gone. The CASA treatment of AA EROPS (and a lot of other operational approvals) was a travesty, a gross misuse of delegated authority.
Perusal of the (proposed) EDT (ne. EROPS/ETOPS) rules might also help temper some of the conspiracy theories.
Perhaps one more thing to consider, when EROPS started, nobody knew much about it, everybody coped. Given the wealth of experience now available, crew training will be a no non-event
Tootle pip!!

[max1]

For those not in the know ETOPS stands for Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming.:8

[woodja51]

Out of curiosity.. does anyone know how many EK pilots have gone to J*?

Not entirely sure but around 10 probably to start with.

All this scuttle butt about ETOPs - I can tell you that it is just as potentially dangerous flying a 4 engine aircraft over the Indian ocean with no where to go -its not just powerplants that cause probs! The sooner that all agencies realise this then the less hassle a two engine jet will have.

The guys from EK all have over 10 000 hours, most with over 3000 widebody command either check training etc time,Infact some are even ex QF so maybe they should get QF salary in retrospect?? Like thats really gonna happen!!

Think the QF boys need to get out a bit more and wake up and smell the roses - I pity the boys who arent/dont already have their commands 'cos I suspect that all the 787s will go to J* if they make the plan fly. So progression will slow considerably.

Good luck AIPA you will need it!

[TurbTool]

I have had a bit of a look at the requirements for ETOPS approval. Although there are a number of regulatory hoops to be passed through I am unable to find anything that refers to, or requires any tech crew experience other than the ability to hold an ATPL appropriate to the aircraft.

It refers to engine/airframe combinations - Airbus input
Systems reliability
Systems redundancy
Maintenance procedures
Airport Availability
Weather Criteria
etc

I cannot find a single reference to minimum aircrew experience for ETOPS.

Am I missing something? Or is this all just a big windup by AIPA?

[ratpoison]

Now, let me see. I'm going to take a weally big pwane from point A to point B acwoss the water. Then I gonna have a ETOPS Entry Point here and an ETOPS Exit Point there. Now the weather at some alternate airports is going to have to meet this cloud base and Viz. Shhhh###tt, that was hard to work out. How am I ever goin to fly it. ????? Now I know what AIPA is so concerned about. AIPA. What a rag outfit. :yuk:

[Sonny Hammond]

Typically, pilots show thier complete lack of industrial savvy. AIPA, you say?

No, the idiots here hanging said association. Ever heard of playing the game? Thats what happening here.

Now, before you go troppo at my comment of industrial savvy, forget about AIPA past and watch AIPA new.
Read the latest AIPA newsletter? Times have changed.....

[ozyozyozy]

Turbo,

Exactly my point in earlier posts, crew training would have to be one of the least things CASA is worried about (not that it does not have to be completed) but an experienced ETOPS crew is far less significant than a proven, reliable aircraft with the required parts fitted getting them there.

It is not like a crew needs 1000 hours experience flying ETOPS sectors and then they are now elligible - like I said a last ditch effort by the association to prevent the inevitable - pick your battles I say. Maybe trying to unite pilots together would be a priority , as long as individuals are selling themselves cheaper than the next man the company will do as it pleases - wouldn't you.

[Visual Procedures]

Not exactly a wind up.. But attrocious sensationalist reporting by the Today show and channel nine.. They are the ones who accused AIPA of saying the pilots were not experienced enough..

We all know that the flying bit of ETOPS is easy once you get your head around it.

Read the article again.

Not once does AIPA accuse the pilots of not having enough experience. AIPA accuses JETSTAR (the operation) of not having enough experience.

[TurbTool]

VP, thanks for setting that right. Of course that is a big difference to the scenerio.

[Bolty McBolt]

It says Jetstar has "limited operational, engineering, maintenance and experience base

Visual Procedures - Eagleman

I have read the article and the quote above is from it.
Which is why I replied that the Maintenance will be done by the same people and organisation that looks after the QF fleet now, which is why I don't think the AIPA argument will hold water.
For if you argue that Jetstar Int is not safely maintained to operate ETOPS therefore the QF fleet is same. If you beleive the QF fleet is unsafe why is that you have waited for a start-up airline to make your voice heard.

Don't shoot this messenger because I like to see AIPA play the game and shoot a broadside across managements bow but the above is how I see AIPA's arguemnt being reported in the press.

Bolty :ok:

[amos2]

Aw! C'mon guys...Leadsled summed it up!
Etops/Erops...call it what you like!...
It's a non event to professional pilots!!
Strewth!!...is this an amateur show or what!!
:mad: :mad:

Oh! and by the way, the Poisoned rat is on the money too!
Why do we waste our time with PPLs and CPLs on this forum??

:confused: :confused:

[Bailey's Dad]

Read Mr Joyce's words about his Jetstar pilots....."some very experienced people". Christ I would hope he had the words "they are all...."
Leave the flying to the Qantas Pilots.
VB pilot

[Woomera]

Right!!

I am a bit sick of the use of ETOPS, which is entirely a systems redundancy and maintenaince issue, as yet another opportunity to slag off a group of pilots:ugh:

This thread ends here!:mad: