Such is my life

[rodney rude]

Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..

Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.

[Arm out the window]

Mate, you know what the logical response to your comment will be, don't you?

If you're fishing for bites, you'll probably get some.
If not, then give DPO a quick ring, and if you were any good, you might as well head on back for an extension to that Air Force career!

[Woomera]

Now, before you all offer words of sympathy and advice to Rodney - as I'm sure you will - please make sure those words don't upset the Woomera tribe! :=

And Rodney, the same rules apply to you also! :=

Just getting in first........ :E

[Continental-520]

Yes, Rodney, we all have problems and gripes mate, and that one is yours.

I see what you're saying, but do I come to you with all my personal problems? Be they aviation related or not?

There is no such thing as old. Just older.

520.

[Wizofoz]

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.

.......I bet your colleagues forced to spend time on the flight-deck with you don't...:rolleyes:

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.


......and I have an idea what kind of Captain you'll make......:rolleyes:

[Capt Claret]

Isn't it interesting how we can see different things in the same words.

I don't see rodney's post as a whinge or lament, rather an illustration of the juxtaposition of a pilots life.

4 statements of fact leading in one direction, followed by a reflection that takes the reader through a split-arse turn.

Why presume he's looking for sympathy at all?

[Continental-520]

So what's the objective of the post, then?


520.

[ContactMeNow]

Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..

Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.

But do you love what you are doing? Sounds like you do, but you beleive you are worth more to the company you work for now.

Work hard and the rewards should pay off!

Poor pilot: CMN :{

[Wizofoz]

Sounds to me like he Doesn't like what he does, Doesn't want to be there, Doesn't have much respect for his "Compatriates", and Dosen't mind telling the world about it!!

[morning mungrel]

Guess you should've invested that 60 to 100 gorillas you saved over your GA mates a little more wisely........

[haughtney1]

Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..

Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.

Sounds like a windup to me........

How about..because of my airforce career, my egos' writing cheques my body can't cash :E

[compressor stall]

I'm with the Capt Claret on this one...is it an observation?

"There were drawbacks in coming into the airlines from the forces, but now I don't regret them at all" is how I would read it.

[jetstar1]

OR: Because of my Airforce career, I'm still a lot higher up and probably being paid more than many on this forum so I shouldn't complain :D

[Capt Claret]

Geez, don't some of you look on the bright side of life! :bored:

Continental-520 So what's the objective of the post, then?

Dunno. Without confirmation from rodney, I'd go for an observation, as mentioned by the erudite Stallie Esq. Perhaps even a thought provoking observation, designed to generate an exchange of ideas and opinions.

[carro]

I also agree with Capt Claret.

I did like the Topgun quote though;) "The plaque for the altenates is in the ladies room"

I'm sure a lot of people would have liked an airforce career also - you're lucky you've had both military and civilian careers

Capt Carro

[The Voice]

From another perspective, I see it a wistful recollection of how Rodney came to arrive at where he is today, and thankful of the journey he took to get there ...

[international hog driver]

Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.
Thankfully because I have a life and friends outside of a small cockpit:D

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.
Yes and now I can watch someone else cop the crap and deal with all the problems:\

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..
But soon i will have my life time pension that will make me just as well off as my compatriots;)

Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.
Which is good because the whipper snappers are still out chasing tail while I am enjoying a nice red:ok:

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.
Too Right:} :}

[Barkly1992]

Rodney

Back last century the BBC Horizon program made a program called 'The Wrong Stuff'. I am sure you can guess where the title comes from.

It pointed out that ex-military pilots were often not the right people to have in either the left or the right hand seat in a civilian environment.

They investigated a number of incidents and accidents where the 'military training' and 'attitude' contributed to the wrong decisions being made where there was mix on the flight deck.

When an ex-Mirage RAAF pilot complained in the local (Canberra) media that he had been trained to risk his life at a cost to the Australian taxpayer of some $millions and he had been rejected by Qantas, I pointed out in the letter-to-the-editor column that Qantas was not interested in employing pilots that daily wanted to risk there lives, but rather more solid, staid and conservative pilots who kept all the passengers safe and looked after the assets.

Well - you should have seen the hate mail I got from the 'trained killers'.

Surely it is as one would say 'horses for courses.' And you possibly have a military pension on top of that as well. BTW I have a couple of ex-RAAF friends who flew fast jets and they are still FOs on B747s.

:ok:

[Centaurus]

Barkly.
It pointed out that ex-military pilots were often not the right people to have in either the left or the right hand seat in a civilian environment.

They investigated a number of incidents and accidents where the 'military training' and 'attitude' contributed to the wrong decisions being made where there was mix on the flight deck

I saw that program too. It was rubbish, of course. It might well have said that former GA pilots flying airliners are the worst types to have on airline flight decks because they have been "trained" to accept aircraft that are unairworthy, clapped, inoperative radar and the same pilots are "trained" to cut corners, do run ups on the run, and are easily conned into flying poorly maintained aircraft because their employers will sack them if they don't.
I mean are these types the Right Stuff or the Wrong Stuff you want in charge of a QANTAS big Boeing?

And of course that's all rubbish too, but see how easy it is to type cast someone because of his previous background? Once in a proper airline, any attitude problems are usually sorted out during the simulator phase and apart from the odd strange individual that slips through the system and becomes a real bastard once he gains the LH seat, the system usually weeds the crook guys out.

[maxgrad]

Or the other side of the coin.

I'm a captain and must take all the backlash

I fly civilian aircraft and would love to have a go at a fast jet or a C130

I don't receive any benifits from the armed forces

(or for that matter any bloody where)

I do love what I do

I am content

(and if I wasn't I damn well better change jobs before I turn bitter and twisted)

[haughtney1]

And of course that's all rubbish too, but see how easy it is to type cast someone because of his previous background? Once in a proper airline, any attitude problems are usually sorted out during the simulator phase and apart from the odd strange individual that slips through the system and becomes a real bastard once he gains the LH seat, the system usually weeds the crook guys out

All very very true, this probelm did however exist in a very real sense the in UK as the forces downsized. Plenty of ex-mil guys were going into civvy street with no other experience than a few thousand fast jet hours.
The old adage that under stress you fall back onto what you know rang true in a number of incidents:ok:
I would say its overly simplistic to label ex-mil pilots with the "wrong stuff"..even though through most of their mil career they have been reinforced with the maxim "you are better, faster, and more able to kill the opponent/get the job done".
My own personal experience with mil guys is somewhat mixed, in point of fact, the fast jet guys to a man have been brilliant in almost all aspects, its been the ex C130/Nimrod/E3 drivers I've worked with that have been a little less able (or willing) to cope with a multi-crew environmet:ok:

[aircraft]

Err... fellow pilots, Rodney is having a go.

Having a go at his fellow airline pilots that did not come from the Air Force!

Please, instead of just following your instinct and attacking him, how about asking him to elaborate?

[max autobrakes]

At least Rodney didn't slag off at cadets. :ouch:

[Over and gout]

Doesn't sound so bad to me.

You could be still looking for the twin job that doesn't exist...........

[drshmoo]

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..
Well just a comparison on the tough times for the RAAFies compared to a GA pilot
Training Cost:
RAAF- $0
GA - $50/60k
First Job:
RAAF - PC-9 out of Pearce WA (north Perth) - 50/60K
GA - C206 in Halls creek WA (middle of nowhere) - 28k ( if that):ouch:
First Turbine:
RAAF - see first job
GA - anywhere up to 5-10 years
Time earning less than 50k
RAAF - post initial training
GA - maybe 6/7 years before get respectable GA position or Regional
Money spent on endorsments to further ones career post training
RAAF - PC-9 $0
BAE HAWK $0
FA 18 or F111 $0
maybe later a BBJ (see free 737 endo)
GA - $1200 PA31
- $5000/10000 turbo prop regional etc
- $30,000 for B737 or A320 endo
note pay does not become respectable till you acheive this level.
Money spent relocating when required to move for work
RAAF - $0
GA - $1000 plus moving car/house contents/rent and bond etc
So the RAAFy finishes his/her ROSO at 30 and has forked out nothing and earned no less than $60k (and prob up to $90k) for the last ten years post initial training. The GA guy earned rubbish pay for 5 years and after forking out over $100k to get where they are now could be on $80k flying a B737 or equivalent. The RAAF pilot unless they got a cadetship with QF would be heaps better off financially. Not even close. Also it must be tough when the worst basing is TINDAL on good pay and conditions. So the GA pilot not only contends with the fiancial hardships of making the big airline, but once he gets there he gets the pleasure of flying with pilots that don't have any respect for other peoples experience except their own (military or nothing from the some RAAFies)
To all those ex RAAFies that think they did it tough, poor babies
:{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[Metro man]

Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.

Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions.

Got to stop typing now I'm getting tears all over the keyboard I feel so sorry for him and all he's had to endure :yuk:

[rodney rude]

Elaborate I shall.

I'm glad some people such as Capt Claret and co can see what I was getting at. I guess my comment regarding flying airliners does look like a bit of a whinge.

My elaboration is such - When I first joined the airlines 7 years ago I was much oldr than the guys I was flying with. They were to a large degree young captains who were doing estremely well financially. Good blokes they are too. I felt regretful at the time that maybe, just maybe I had taken the wrong career choice.

Now with the state of aviation as it is worldwide, and particularly in Oz, my reflections with hindsight allow me to see that I have indeed been very lucky to have had the career I have had.

No I am not poor, but I fly with some extremely fortunate (financially) people.

As Capt Claret was bright enough to see, my post was merely a reflection on my past and the fact that I now have no regrets. I am very content and I am tremendously satisfied with where i am now in my airline job. Further to my reflection - this IS just a job - the RAAF was never just a job.

I DO CONCEDE THAT THOSE OF YOU WHO TOOK MY MUSINGS THE WRONG WAY WERE POSSIBLY LEAD TO DO SO BY MY SEEMINGLY POOR CHOICE OF WORDS IN MY LAST REFLECTION. FOR THAT I APOLOGISE.

It is interesting to note that some people were able to extract my true intent, but the majority went on the attack. Sadly I feel that the Dunnunda site has become so vitriolic that attack without thought has become the name of the game.

Arm out the window - I know you, like you and respect you (how is FNQ by the way my friend) but I am very disappointed in your attacking reply. I thought you were smart enough to see my intent. And I always thought you were impossible to rile. You are too nice a guy. Maybe you had a wine or two.

I love my airline life, but it has made me realise how good a military flying career is.

Dr Shmoo - you are not worth replying to.

[haughtney1]

I guess my comment regarding flying airliners does look like a bit of a whinge.


If this is so..why are you saying things like..

It is interesting to note that some people were able to extract my true intent

When you could have said that in the first place?

Sure you can say now that you mislead..or were ambiguous with your observations, but what else do you expect? there are plenty of people in a far worse situation than your good self, and with a few vague..yet specific comments you gave a false impression.

I'm afraid to say in my opinion, you deserved to get flamed for what you said.

[rodney rude]

Okay, I tried to be nice whilst explaining that I didn't intend to say something that sounded like a whinge, but rather was a reflection that I have been rather fortunate.

But Haughtney, you still want to have a go at me.

So now I won't be nice. Sod off ya pommy git. He is a sheepshagger:ok:


Woomera

[rodney rude]

You may as well ban me woomera. Rodney's not coming back.

Ban you why?

Why not think up a new handle and come back with a clean slate so to speak?

Woomera

[pakeha-boy]

...onya bike then ya cabbage!!!!!...I was actually enjoying reading this until he spit the dummy.......poofta!!!...

Can you be just a little gentle with the new chum?

Woomera

[haughtney1]

plus Im not a pom:} :} :} :}

But you're a Kiwi so wipe at least two of those smiles off you face:}:ok:

Woomera

[Woomera]

Rodney, Rodney, Rodney:ugh:

You're now discovering the limitations of the written word...lacking, as it can be, in nuance.

Slaming drshmoo is counterproductive because what he is stating is extremely accurate in a simplistic broad brush comparison of the respective career paths of the average mil pilot vs the average civvy.

But to your initial post.

Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.

Of itself innocuous enough...but plenty of civvies don't make it to an airline job until a comparable age...and as Drshmoo indicates they usually had a tougher time financially enroute.

Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..

Less well off than the small % of civil pilots who fluked an airline job at an early age and in a rapidly expanding airline maybe, but no worse off than most and probably better off than many given the factors outlined by Drshmoo. Comparing your situation to the minority is just plain dumb. I assume you're in VB or Jetstar if you're comparing yourself to a largish number of young captains....even they do not fully realise how lucky thay have been.

Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.

Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.

So? I know of copilots in their late 50s flying with captains in their early 30s and neither was ever in the mil. It can be as simple as the copilot was unlucky in his career...plenty of Captains have lost their jobs because companies go broke or retrench and they have been employed at the bottom of a seniority list and won't make it back to the LHS before 60...or in a time frame that makes the company they NOW work for inclined to promote them...or they lost jobs as fairly senior FOs and with no command time have only been able to find employment as an FO....or they just can't be bothered making the effort again at their stage of life and are happy to see out ther career from the cheap seat...or they just were not good enough. It happens.

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.

This is the doozy. It can be read in two very different ways.

1/. Gee I am glad I had a wonderfull time flying mil...this airline flying is boring and being an FO is a pain but I wouldn't have missed the excitment of mil flying for anything. I think that is what you meant.

2/. Thank god for my superior military training because these young civvy captains don't know ****e from good brown clay. Unfortunatly this is a fairly prevalent attitude among too many ex mil pilots when they first leave the military. It can take years before they lose that attitude and in the meantime they give all mil pilots a very bad reputation. I tend to think, after a few decades in this industry, that there are fairly even numbers of dickheads in both camps....and I have flown with more than my fair share of both...it's more a personality type than a background thing.

So please don't desert PPrune just yet...perhaps just be a little more circumspect before hitting submit...and recognise that there are plenty worse off than yourself.

[Arm out the window]

Sorry if I've hurt your feelings, Rodney - I was sure the opening post was a wind-up to arc up the military vs. GA 'debate'.
To me, it came across as "Here's a number of reasons why I'm worse off than the people I fly with, and the RAAF was better than where I am now." - obviously that wasn't what you meant to say.

Metro man:
"Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions." - apart from the bit about the award (no complaints about the pay), that describes the Caribou detachment in Timor pretty well, apart from the guns, and the aircraft were older - still, we signed up, so 'I no complain', as Con the Fruiterer would say.

[Wombat35]

Ahh Timor.... all I wanted was a fan!

Wonder if the skid marks are still there from the STOL STOL Bou.

Only aircraft that I know, that took off with the park brake on without anyone realising (Wet grass) and landed with brakes firmly fixed in the static position, unfortunately NOT on wet grass :mad: :sad: :{ in that order!

At least I have the pics, but it wasn't me.

What was this thread about again?

[Trevor the lover]

I have to wonder at why Rodney has explained his writings but guys are still reading their own inferences into his words.

Where did he attack DR Shmoo please Woomera? Dr Shmoo seemed to give us all the reasons why HE feels he may have chosen the wrong career path. I think Woomera if you read Dr Shmoos post and his last comment it is highly offensive to all the ex and currently serving RAAFies out there. What a disgusting last line. Rodney could have fired off at that but chose not to I believe. Just said Not worth responding to.

Dr Shmoo - try six months in Iraq without family, without your little boy to read a story too, without your little girl to have a cuddle with. Without a weekend off to cruise down the coast and have a few beers after a surf. It ain't much fun mate. Yes all your post regarding the monetary aspects is good and accurate. But my situation is exactly the same as Rodney's. I am in KA and I fly with Captains in their 20s and early 30s who have made good coin here - many of whom joined Ansett at about twenty two. Nearly EVERY ex RAAFie is behind these guys money wise.

At no stage did Rodney say he was poor, at no stage did he say he was better than his civvie comrades, at no stage did he slam anyone, at no stage did he show disrespect to his captains.. As far as I read it he just expressed that airlines are okay, but he loved his military career despite the small negatives regarding joining the airlines.

Most of the attacks on him seem to have come from Wannabees who saw him as ungrateful for having a great airline job. Gotta admit it could be read that way, but that is not how I first saw it.

Dr Shmuck - give a defence force recruiting office a call, or don't you believe your own numbers.

Come back Rodney

[M.25]

Whilst I read Rodney's post as a positive reflection of his career choices........ I must say that there are not many airline pilots who thank god for their GA career!


Rodney,
The young captains that you find yourself working under are the very lucky few. What you don't see at work are the hundreds of pilots that started flying at the same time as you (at a very large personal expense) and never made it to an airline.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I do!!!:}

I must admit when I read the first post my initial reaction was negative...so I posted nothing.

Trevor just goes to show that the airforce training is not always free...if a war comes up you're expected to attend.

[drshmoo]

Dear Trevor

I would like to ammend my last line of previous post to read doing it "financially" tough. My post was soley with reference to being financially worse off for joining the RAAF. The pilots you fly with that were in Ansett at 22 then got glory jobs in Asia, good on them but they are an excemption rather than the rule. Thats awesome for them and you probably are behind these guys money wise and so is the majority of your fellow aviators.

Your reference to time in IRAQ must have been horrible away from your loved ones - noted. But the genre of my thread was in reference to financially doing it tough, which when you went to IRAQ, you were duely well remunerated (yes one cannot get paid enough when at war - I agree).

The figures I mentioned in reagard to the RAAF pay are reasonably current. I have many current RAAF mates. Please correct me if I am wrong

Dear Rodney

Thanks for replying with "not replying" - so you did reply.


Dear RAAFies, you have all done hard yards and have had great training and put in lots of trime and effort, and are probably great pilots. I don't disagree with that. I am just sick of people who trained for free under great conditions having a sook cause someone had a gravy train ride and now they percieve that they did it tough Financially. If you guys weren't in the RAAF, do you think that it would be a well paid job then straight into the airlines? Earning the great pay and conditions that that entails? or would you be like the rest (and majority of OZ aviators) doing it tough climbing the tree of experience to get to the Big pay airline? It is fairly naive to think ones potential civilian career would be an equivalent gravy train ride like those 22yo ex Ansett drivers that are doing so well overseas.

Why is it a problem to have younger Captains? In every different career choice (flying or otherwise), different people will get to where they are with different paths under different timelines. As long as they are qualified to be there then deal with it. I fly with a younger captain every now and then in her mid 20's and she is nothing short of brilliant (and a girl but thats another thread). That afformentioned captain has done all the hard yards and ammassed a wealth of experience at her young age - it can and will be done and good luck to them.

To those in the great airline jet jobs around the world, regardless of their background enjoy the job and don't take it for granted.:=

Woomera - thanks for understanding the intent of my post and defending it as required:ok:

[gaunty]

Hmmmmm.

Me old mate Chuckles and I agree mostly on everything, but I admit to reading rodneys initial post pretty much exactly as he later described it.

You're now discovering the limitations of the written word...lacking, as it can be, in nuance.

And yes I have bitten once or twice shy of the actual intent of the post too.

Either way if you remove all the angst from the posts, this thread has confirmed to me that we all have many different paths in life that often lead to the same end. We are all "disadvantaged", "discriminated against" equally.

Different in overall circumstances maybe but not in essence.

For example Metroman and AOTW same experiences different boat.

[Capt Claret]

Well bugger my brown dog, as an eloquent chap I know is want to say!

There's not one word in the originating post that unequivocally says, whinge/bitch/moan/woe is me. Sure they can be interpreted that way by the reader but that's not what they say.

Not one of the complainants have asked rodney what did he mean, they've just assumed (makes an ass out of u) that their interpretation was the righteous and correct one.

Even when rodney elaborated to remove doubt, some of you want to continue to believe that your negative interpretation is still correct. :mad: my brown dog, what do you do in an aeroplane when there's some doubt as to what's wanted or said?????

There's another thread running at the moment about the need for unity amongst pilots. IMHO we won't see the desired unity in my life, and much of this thread explains why not. :{

[international hog driver]

I think most of you missed the jest in Rodney’s post, the grass is always greener when your looking over fence from a pile of dog doo.;)

Chimbu also has is right, I look back on my time in GA as an experience that I will never forget and can draw experience from, PNG, North and East Coast OZ, South Asia and Africa, been there did it. While most of my mates were starting to check into CX & QF I was smashing bugs across the planet.
The dosh was sometimes good but most times crap but the people you meet along the way make it worth it.:ok:

Now when I decide which auto pilot to engage and discover the finer points of an FMC and maintain F410 and watch most of everyone else below me I realise how much fun you can have bug smashing.:E

Fo’s I know here in Europe have (some) gone from training to a Jet and they think that that’s the icing on the cake, but after the gloss wares off they start to think is this all there is to this game.:confused:

Where you are and where you have been is an apprenticeship in life never forget that in your aspiration to fly the big stuff, because once you get there it can be as boring as bat poo and the gent in the LHS is truly excited by being able to make block with in 3 mins of planned!:ugh:

Gimmie a break and get a life, better still go bug smashing.:E

I just feel very sorry for the poor souls that will end up with the new Multi Pilot Type Operators Licence that JARWorld is proposing :yuk:

[Wizofoz]

Well, when he makes a comment like this-
Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.
I think one can be forgiven for assuming he's being a little negative about his current profession.

Rodney and his ilk should realize that there are ex-military guys who give the breed a bad name by there holier-than-thou attitude. It is by no means universal, some of the best guys I've ever flown with (God! Garry Cooper VC(should have!!)) in both seats have been ex military- Some of the worst also!

I and others mis-interpreted his post- not without reason considering our experiences.

For him then to launch the teddy is, I feel, a little churlish.

Oh, and Trevor, Military flying doesn't have a monopoly of time away from home either. I missed my Daughters first steps because I was on a 5 month separation due to the vagaries of not having the tab picked up by Johnnie!

I do wonder what exactly our Rodders hoped to achieve with this, his first post:confused: :confused:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions.
Got to stop typing now I'm getting tears all over the keyboard I feel so sorry for him and all he's had to endure :yuk:

Are you a Caibou pilot living in the Officers' Mess? (award aside) :} [Edit: Just saw Arm out the Window's post :) ]

Wonder if the skid marks are still there from the STOL STOL Bou.

Only aircraft that I know, that took off with the park brake on without anyone realising (Wet grass) and landed with brakes firmly fixed in the static position, unfortunately NOT on wet grass in that order!

I believe a pax saw it but spoke up after a landing involving a lot of screeching :)

[psycho joe]

Because of my civilian career I joined the RAAF a little older than my compatriots.

Because of my civilian career I took a pay cut (joining the RAAF).

Because of my civilian career the RAAF said I couldn't fly.

Because of my civilian career the RAAF found that I could.

Because of my civilian career I was the oldest pilot on course.

Because of my civilian career I left RAAF training for an airline job.

Because of my civilian career I am a little bit less well off financially than my (RAAF) compatriots.

Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my airline job.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Those of you who think that a RAAFie doesn't pay for his training have conveniently forgotten ROSO.

Giving at LEAST 10 years of your working life to an organisation that, at a whim, can have you squatting in a hootchie in downtown Bumfcuk without any recourse is quite a downpayment on any training recieved.

In fact it is the reason many of the guys I fly with spurned a military career. The reasons were all the same, either stated or nuanced.. The price was too high..

Having said that, my air-force career, short and unspectacular as it was back then, remains the highlight of my flying life.

[rodney rude]

Okay Rodney's back, give a hand for Rodney, get Rude on.


Dear Mr Schmoo. I actually like you, I think you are quite factual and passionate. But PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE, stop putting words in my mouth and making up inferences.

Quote I would like to ammend my last line of previous post to read doing it "financially" tough. My post was soley with reference to being financially worse off for joining the RAAF. The pilots you fly with that were in Ansett at 22 then got glory jobs in Asia, good on them but they are an excemption rather than the rule. Thats awesome for them and you probably are behind these guys money wise and so is the majority of your fellow aviators.

I am pretty sure my post said ... "because of my RAAF career I am financially a little bit less well off than my compatriots." How do you know that I am not - because where i fly, I am. Where does it say that because of my RAAF career I am worse off than GA pilots who haven't done it easy? It DOESN'T - so stop saying I have suggested this. Where did it say in my post that I am doing it tough financially? ( a direct quote from you) It DOESN'T - so stop saying I have said so. I am not doing it tough - but I am NOT as well off as some of my compatriots that I fly with. FACT - you can not say otherwise because you do not know where I fly or who for. Yes the guys I fly with from Ansett WERE very fortunate, and yes they were an exception. Did I suggest otherwise? No I didn't. So stop suggesting I did.


Dear Rodney

Thanks for replying with "not replying" - so you did reply.

Can't argue with that, except to say that is a pretty shallow victory to you.

Quote Dear RAAFies, you have all done hard yards and have had great training and put in lots of trime and effort, and are probably great pilots. I don't disagree with that. I am just sick of people who trained for free under great conditions having a sook cause someone had a gravy train ride and now they percieve that they did it tough Financially.

Once again - where did I say I am doing it tough financially? I DIDN'T - so stop suggesting I have said it. Please, for fcuk's sake, you show me where I said I was suffering, or have ever suffered, financially. I AM NOT. Find me anywhere in the history of Pprune where a military pilot has said he is crumpled financially. You won't find ONE reference - so stop saying you are sick of hearing it.

.
Quote Why is it a problem to have younger Captains?

Oh come on mate, now I am getting fed up with you. WHERE HAVE I SAID I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUNGER CAPTAINS. BLOODYWELL WHERE!!!! YOUNGER CAPTAINS ARE NO FREAKING PROBLEM, I NEVER SAID THEY WERE, DIDN'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO INSINUATING THAT - SO STOP SUGGESTING I DID. MAYBE ANYONE ELSE RESPONDING HERE WHO DOESN'T LIKE ME MAY FIND WHERE I HAVE SAID I AM CRIPPLED FINANCIALLY, OR THAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUNGER CAPTAINS - BUT I CAN TELL YOU YA WON'T FIND IT.



To those in the great airline jet jobs around the world, regardless of their background enjoy the job and don't take it for granted.:=

EXACTLY MY POINT MATE, I TOOK MY RAAF CAREER FOR GRANTED TO A CERTAIN EXTENT AND ALL TOO OFTEN ONLY SAW THE BAD STUFF. NOW MY MUSINGS AS POSTED ARE ALL ABOUT HOW GOOD I HAD IT, HOW MUCH I ENJOYED IT, BUT IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO REALISE IT.
FLYING AIRLINERS IS, TO ME, NOT EXCITING AT ALL, BUT IT IS A GOOD JOB, AND I AM GRATEFUL.

Now Mr Shmoo, could you please provide evidence from my original post which supports you inferences of my "gripes" about my financial state, or my problems with younger captains.

Rodney is going home now.

[Metro man]

It would have been nice to have got into an airline in my early 20s after a short stint in GA and today be captain on a heavy with plenty of money behind me. That didn't happen in my case, I know a few who had an easy run and plenty more who won't go any higher than Saab/Metro/King Air etc so I suppose I can't complain too much.

Decent jet at last, good pay and quick promotion if capable. Yes I sometimes fly with captains a bit younger than I am but if I behave myself I could soon be one of them.

I don't feel sorry for the ex airforce drivers starting out as f/os, they've already had one good career and are starting out on the next one. I feel sorry for the 45 year old charter pilots in C402s who will never go any higher and have nothing behind them for retirement.

What makes me feel old now is looking at the D.O.B.s on the Gen Dec and realising that a few of the flight attendants are young enough to be my daughter.:(

[Monopole]

Stick it to 'im Rodney :} :E

The Dr. and many others (myself included) would probably have sold their mothers to have had the opportunity to go through mil. training and fly fast jets.

I must admit that at first I took offence at your original post. However after reading a few of the alternate views I gave you the benifit of the doubt. After reading your clarification of the original post, well...... who are we to say what you are thinking or meaning :oh: :oh:

Your original post almost reads like a form of poetry, and poetry can always have differant interpolation :bored:

Mono

[hoss]

BRING BACK RODNEY, BRING BACK RODNEY, BRING BACK RODNEY come on mate how about one last encore. How about doing some of those 'you know what I hate, what I reaaaaaaaaaally reaaaaaaaly hate' lines.

:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

When I read the first post in this thread an old song came to mind.
Je ne regrette rien:ok:
Would that I could say that about myself.:{
Some are lucky and some are not. Such is life!

[max autobrakes]

Ned Kelly was

[Soulman]

Nah Hoss - the farting contest with the ugly lesbian in the tent.

Coz I'd :mad: a black snake with a fested arse... IF you held its head!

Classic.

[rodney rude]

Dear monople, and others such as Mr Claret, and a few other supporters,
Rodney is back again, encore encore , fcuk me, give Rodney a hand,

mR MONOPLE, WHOOPS, A FEW WINES AND BEERS HAS MY TYPING **** OUT OF KILT. tHANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS. i TOTALLY AND HUMBLY ADMIT THAT MY FIRST ATTEMPT AT A BIT OF BANJO PATTERSON, WHILST SOUNDING NICE, COULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN THE WRONG WAY, I AM GLAD THAT MY EXPLANATIONS, WHILST NOT CHANGING MY INTENT IN ANY WAY, MAY HAVE CLEARED UP WHAT I MEANT TO SAY.

I GET ****FACED AT CLOWNS LIKE DR SCHMOOPS PUTTING THEIR OWN SPIN ON IT. I HAVE EXPLAINED MYSELF AND I HAVE TOLD IT HOW I MEAN IT.

1. YES I AM AM EX MILITARY, I HAD EXCELLENT TRAINING, BUT EXCEPT FOR A GUY I FLEW WITH IN THE RAAF WHOSE NAME I WON'T MENTION BUT IT WAS (edited to leave his name out), THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF TALENTED PILOTS I HAVE FLOWN WITH WERE EX GA. YES I PASSED RAAF PILOTS COURSE, BUT I AM AS AVERAGE AS THE NEXT GUY - MY SIMS OF TODAY AND YESTERDAY SHOWED THAT.

2. YEP, GA GUYS HAVE A HARD ROAD, BUT MILITARY LIFE HAS ITS FAIR SHARE OF PRICKLES TOO. MY BEST BUDDY WAS INSPIRED BY ME TO LEARN TO FLY, SOME 6 YEARS AFTER I DID. HE IS AN AILRLINE CAPTAIN NOW, I AM NOT. HE IS FINANCIALLY MORE SECURE THAN ME DESPITE A GA START.

3. I LIKE WHERE I AM NOW. I AM GRATEFUL. MY ROAD HASN'T EXACTLY BEEN ROLLERBLADE HOTMIX. I HAVE FALLEN ON HARD TIMES AND CLAWED MY WAY BACK. A BOUT OF CANCER COST ME MY JOB WITH A MAJOR AND TRY GETTING A JOB WITH AN AIRLINE WITH THAT ON YOUR RESUME (GUESS I'VE GIVEN IT AWAY TO A FEW NOW)


I REALLY JUST WANT TO STRESS - NO OFFENSE WAS MEANT TO HARD WORKING GA GUYS. NO INFERENCE WAS MEANT THAT MIL GUYS ARE BETTER THAN GA. (NOT THAT I SAID ANYTHING AT ALL LIKE THAT). AT NO STAGE DID I SAY OR MEAN TO INFER THAT A MIL CAREER HAS LEFT ME WORSE OFF THAN A GA GUY.

ALL I WANTED TO EXPRESS WAS THAT MY CAREER CHOICES GAVE ME A FABULOUS MIL CAREER, A career that I will always treasure, but if I had started on a GA career in 1985, rather than joining the military, I would now at 42 more than likely be a jet airline captain rather than a jet airline f/o, and as such, better off financially. BUT, I have no regrets. I have flown military jets low and fast with an oxy mask on and a bang seat under my butt and it was great. NO REGRETS. Money smells great but is not the be all and end all.

Rodney would like to retire now - but under the right circumstances late appearance may be possible.

Dr Scmoo - still waiting for your evidence.

Rodney

[pakeha-boy]

Rodney maaaaaaaaaaaaate...thanks for clarifying a few points....Ive been dealt a "Set of Cards" and they are the ones I have to play with...you should do the same....by the way....I have an airline job,it wasnt given to me,I worked my arse off for it....do I piss and moan....on Occasson......but then I think about the boys on the Porirua City Council digging holes....puts it right back in perspective..I would also suggest that there are many who frequent this site,have been through similar circumstances...reckon it all boils down to how your able to handle and deal with it.......you have a good day mate!!PB

[Alistair]

Little (Rodders) Bill Daggett: I don't deserve this... to (fly) die like this. I was building a (flying career) house.
Bill Munny: Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.
[aims gun]
Little Bill Daggett: I'll see you in (insert s..t hole of choice here) hell, William Munny.
Bill Munny: Yeah.
[fires]
Always liked that movie, Proon's not usually as good :D

[rodney rude]

Hello Pakeha boy,

Funny you should mention digging holes for the council. When I was an S/O I used to say that for the same money and same time off at home I would rather dig holes for the council. Now I would probably love to be an S/O on that same money again. See - it is all about hindsight, perspective and looking at things objectively at the time. And to dig holes in a small town in NZ - where do I apply.

Have a cool day.

Rude

[drshmoo]

Dear Rodney

I'm not sure whether you'll agree but your comments were a tad ambiguous and thank you for clarifying your point as I'm glad I did mine. Perhaps in persuing my line of thought with reference to your original verseone highlighted not only the diffenrece in career choices and the pitfalls of each but maybe a few sore points for me personally. Sorry to take you out of context but as even the Moderator stated, it was ambiguous.

Low level flying in a fast jet - sounds awesome. I wish I could ellaborate on some of my own stories but as a civilian my licence will be shredded and name forever tarnished. The military would have been great ( I never applied ) but GA memories and friendships (like yours too) will last forever.

Its important where you finish but you gotta love the journey

Drshmoo/shmuck/scmoo etc

[tinpis]

“To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive,”
Robert Louis Stevenson.

Pretty much sums it up by the sounds of it.:rolleyes:

[rodney rude]

Mr schmoo,

Thank you for your humility (no offence nor sarcasm intended, humility is a fine trait). A few posters I note have added their own versions of poetry of what I was intending to say. ie the Robert Louis Stevenson quote hits the nail firmly on the gonk.

My journey has been great - I hope yours is too, just enjoy it as it happens, leave no room for regrets.

Thank you for now understanding. I would like it however if you could acknowledge that I never did say I was financially poorly off, or that I have a problem with young skippers.

I hope everyone can avoid this stupid Aussie trait of maybe not being sure what someone is trying to say, so lets assume he is an arsehole and attack him.

Best of luck to you Schmucky schmoo, if the big break hasn't come your way yet, just hang in there, it will. I hung in, and after too long unemployed with a family to support things finally happened, despite the bigots in the airline recruiting world.

I fell this thread has run its course.

Rude has retired. (until I come up with some new poetry)

Rodney

[F/O Bloggs]

Rodney-Tom, skype me mate.

Fish

[rodney rude]

Hey FUNGULU, youmakelub2meandbuymeaVB


Rude

[maxgrad]

Bugga dataye Rwana plaggin

[king oath]

Rodney doesn't mention the Airforce superannuation he got on departure. This provides him with a nice little addition to the wordly wealth he earns in the right hand seat.

The ex Airforce F/O's I fly with aren't doing it too tough. Nice big homes in expensive suburbs, investment properties etc.

Try to keep the old chin up old boy, what.

[maxgrad]

I feel I must add to the somewhat shortsighted statement of "king oath"

I am an airforce brat
I have very close dealings with the airforce at present
I am in a civvy company

Much earlier I made the mention re benifits after service. I qualify that by stating that they bloody well deserve it and I am probably somewhat envious.

There is a percentage in the airforce who moan and groan about their lot and the lack of benefits, "the bastards put our airconditioning allowance in with our normal pay so now we get taxed on it!" is an example.

Others, and I believe this includes Rodney (in my opinion) just get on with it and take what has been worked for.

To those who just get on with it....enjoy
To those others...take a close look at what the mainstream of civvy pilots have dealt with or still put up with.


gets off soapbox and ducks

[Gnadenburg]

Yes the guys I fly with from Ansett WERE very fortunate

An odd thread and this the oddest comment. Fortunate to lose their job? Fortunate to climb the slippery pole again? Fortunate to pack up families and leave Australia? Fortunate to cop a bizarre Ansett envy at every turn?

Just a point of order. For every one of those fortunate ex-AN pilots in the "glory jobs of Asia", there is a similar number of ex-RAAF & ex-AN doing similar.;)

[Chimbu chuckles]

No...I think that is the most bizarre comment in the thread.

[Gnadenburg]

No...I think that is the most bizarre comment in the thread.

Keeping it simple, I don't see how being ex-AN was fortunate around the time of Sept 11.

And tying in. A good % of the ex-AN refugees were ex-RAAF aswell. Though in riddles, the thread was becoming airline specific.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Oops...meant to narrow my last post to this comment...but forgot to quote it:ugh:

Fortunate to cop a bizarre Ansett envy at every turn?

In my travels I am yet to see any evidence of 'Ansett envy'...quite the opposite in fact.

[Gnadenburg]

C'mon Chimbu

I recall a thread of yours where you mentioned a few of your mates said ex-AN were making goons of themselves in an un-named Asian airline- probably the same one in riddles here. The bizarre envy was very real and in time the bulk of it traced to a significant number of earlier rejections.

Such is life. ;)

[rodney rude]

Sorry Gands, you are quite correct, whilst I was just repeating a previous poster's comment, it is a long way from correct to imply that someone is fortunate to have their company go nipples up.

NOW I NEED TO SPEAK A LOT LOUDER FOR KING OATH, ANOTHER MEATHEAD WHO CAN'T READ. READ MY LIPS ONCE AGAIN - PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SAID I WAS STRUGGLING FINANCIALLY, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SAID ANY RAAF GUY NOW IN THE AIRLINES IS STRUGGLING. CAN'T YOU READ.

AND WHAT IS YOUR POINT REGARDING SUPERANNUATION. WHILST IN THE MILITARY I GOT 9% EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION - THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER (LEGALLY) EMPLOYED WORKER IN AUSTRALIA.

SHOULD MILTARY PEOPLE NOT GET ANY SUPER?

GO AWAY AND HAVE A THINK! QUOTE AND INFER CORRECTLY OR NOT AT ALL.

Rodney

[Wizofoz]

PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SAID I WAS STRUGGLING FINANCIALLY, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SAID ANY RAAF GUY NOW IN THE AIRLINES IS STRUGGLING.

...Please show us where THEY said you were??!!??

Rodney, you've come on here and posted an ambiguous thread which looked suspiciously like a whinge from an ex-RAAFy about airline flying.

You've then assured us that you LOVE airline flying-Just you'd rather dig ditches for a living.

Then you get all prissy and hot under the collar if everyone doesn't agree with you and tell you what a fine chap you are.

INFER CORRECTLY OR NOT AT ALL.


:confused: ERR- Isn't the whole point of inference that it is what the reader BELIEVES is being said, and therefore individual rather than "Correct" or otherwise?

Perhaps it is just the limitations of your ability to use clear written English, but you come across as a bitter, angry man doing something he doesn't like, wishing for the old days, and ready to aggressively confront anyone who crosses you.

Perfect personality set for a Knuck, but as a future Airline commander....:=

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I GOT 9% EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION - THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER (LEGALLY) EMPLOYED WORKER IN AUSTRALIA.

errr.. what scheme was that? Not sure about DFRDB but MSBS is calculated as 18% per year served for years 1-7, 23% for years 7 - 20 and 28% for years 20+, of your Final average salary.

The trade off is it is unfunded. Meaning if the employer contribution is $100,000 when you quit. It will be $100,000 in real dollars when you hit 65. You get no interest (it's essentially not invested).