One group..........or we're finished!!

[SHRAGS]

Qantas Shorthaul pilots have been offered a 3 year pay freeze!!

Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??

Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.

Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.

Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.


Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.

It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!

[chief wiggum]

To quote Sir Humphrey Appleby.... "What a novel idea"

and

"did you think of this all by yourself?"

not to mention

"of COURSE I agree with you... 100%, but you must ask yourself - 'is this the RIGHT way to go about it?' "

and it SHALL happen, but .... "in the fullness of time"

"nothing precipitate"

"only after we have exhausted all other avenues, then should we consider this course of action"

"let's set up an inter-departmental comittee to implement this novel idea"

would love to see it happen, personally!

[Charliethewonderdog]

Qantas Shorthaul pilots have been offered a 3 year pay freeze!!
Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??
Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.
Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.
Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.
Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.
It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!

You have it all wrong.

You are looking from the top down. Fix GA and you will never have to worry about the top, it will look after itself.

[Ratter]

I see what you are trying to say! Fix GA and when GA drivers enter airlines they will not take crap....is that it. Well, that may work in the extreme long term (over 10 years or so) but what about the now.

Are you implying that those fortunate enough to hold a position in a large RPT operation lack the ability to fight for a better deal simply because they were not taught how to when they were in GA? RUBBISH!!!!!

It is basic human nature that motives are rarely unselfish and people will think of themselves in majority of situations, which generally is fine...after all if you don't look after #1 who will. However, in collective bargaining, AWA negotiations etc.... the only way to look after yourself is to look after your fellow workers. We are often reminded in this business that we are expendable.. that there is always someone willing to do it for less and we should consider ourselves lucky to have a job. Well that argument may work on a single pilot standing in front of the Flight Operations Manager, but do you think that the same argument will work if it was being presented to 1000 pilots standing together.

Stand together. :ok:

Safe Flying

Ratter.

[aircraft]

As a group demanding good pay and conditions, you are finished (at the moment).

The economics of aviation are not what they used to be. The money is just not there, in other words. Surely you can see for yourself the trend in airline transport where passengers are no longer carried in luxury and more and more in "low cost" style. Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.

Aviation has always been, in general, a poor business proposition. I could expand on this point but won't unless specifically asked.

Forget about "fixing GA". That really is a ludicrous suggestion. To fix it, you would have to:

1. Change human nature (Ratter referred to this in his post), and
2. Reduce pilot numbers, worldwide, by about 50%.

It is time to accept the economic realities of aviation. I suggest that those groups you claim have accepted poor EBAs have in fact come to this realisation.

[jack red]

I agree with your sentiments aircraft with the exception of one.
Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.

The flying schools throughout Oz are starting to hurt. Would be pilots are now scrutinising the rewards for such a huge investment for this career and many are turning to more lucrative professions. The supply of pilots is slowly running out.

The "economic reality of aviation" is you spend $120,000 + on attaining the qualificatons necessary to get a job that will get you experience to qualify for an "airline" position. When you meet these minimum requirements you are then required to spend a further $40,000 + (aircraft rating, airfares to interviews, medical, psych test, accomodation etc,. etc,.) and you are still not guaranteed a position. I know two pilots that are still trying to pass the psych test with Qantas and many who have missed out altogether.

When you finally gain employment your starting salary can be as low as $48,000.

Unity is one thing but, ultimately, it will be supply and demand that will determine pilots' wages and conditions in the future.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.



Is that you Mr Dixon.????? where are these excessive amounts of pilots????????????????????????????????? The ones with RPT requirements, 500 multi?????? I have never in my carreer seen so many jobs in GA advertised then I have in the last 12-18 months. When Kakadu air have to advertise you know things are getting tight for drivers.

Pilots are not falling from trees anymore.


The flying schools throughout Oz are starting to hurt. Would be pilots are now scrutinising the rewards for such a huge investment for this career and many are turning to more lucrative professions. The supply of pilots is slowly running out.

Auswest Airlines out of Karatha recently closed up shop because pilots could not be found to honour contracts. Again I ask where are these excessive amount of Pilots.

The facts are employers have had it good for so long in GA because the carrot of a well paid Airline Job kept a steady flow of eager pilots willing to work for less then dole.
The carrot has gone, people that "have made it" are even leaving " well paid airline” jobs to pursue other forms of employment.



Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.

Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.

[aircraft]

Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.

Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.

Utterly pointless - you seem not to have even a basic understanding of human nature!

On the question of pilot numbers: There is one great big indicator that tells you the airlines have no shortage of suitable applicants and that is how Jetstar are going with their pilot recruitment.

Jetstar, being a low cost carrier which can't pay big salaries to aircrew in the first place, is attracting so many applicants that it can demand the applicant pay for all the testing, sim rides, endorsements, etc.

Of course, there are many more companies than Jetstar that are able to make these demands, and you are to expect that while there is the pilot supply, they will do this. There is nothing wrong with these operators; they are a business after all.

In cases of extremely high levels of pilot supply you would expect that the pilot would have to pay the operator for the privilege of flying his aircraft. In fact, this is very close to what happens in many cases around Australia.

When the true pilot shortage arrives, you will know it because the operators will be paying the pilots for the privilege of them coming in for an interview!

The Auswest Airlines example you cited was not necessarily caused by pilot shortage. Instead, I would suggest that the underlying economics could not justify the operation (i.e the mining companies were not prepared to pay Auswest the dough they needed to attract and retain suitable pilots. The high cost of accommodation in Karratha wouldn't have helped the economics).

If it is true that the flying schools are seeing reduced numbers of students then this will improve the supply/demand situation in the future.

[M.25]

Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.

Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.

The problem is that most flying schools have less morals than a dodgy used car salesman. They employ new instructors primarily as salesmen, then as instructors. All that the flying school sees when an Innocent wannabe walks through the door is money, and unfortunately all that many instructors see is a means of getting a few more hours. It's a vicious cycle.
If in fact a shortage does develop, the glossy brochures will just play on this to lure another flood of hopefuls into the industry.
I know many people who would have seriously re-considered the investment if they had been properly informed.

[jack red]

Jetstar,................is attracting so many applicants that it can demand the applicant pay for all the testing, sim rides, endorsements, etc.

That statement is incorrect. Jetstar have had many applicants but not all are agreeable to paying for endorsements and the extras. Give it a couple of months when the Jetstar International recruiting starts to bite and we'll see how many crews they come up short.

[Charliethewonderdog]

The Auswest Airlines example you cited was not necessarily caused by pilot shortage. Instead, I would suggest that the underlying economics could not justify the operation (i.e the mining companies were not prepared to pay Auswest the dough they needed to attract and retain suitable pilots. The high cost of accommodation in Karratha wouldn't have helped the economics).
If it is true that the flying schools are seeing reduced numbers of students then this will improve the supply/demand situation in the future.

Justify the operation you suggest. The work was there, the planes were there, the pay was good.......but no pilots.

Ok you dont know what happened at Auswest.I'll fill you in from a reliable sole.

Auswest paid a 62.5K package. No rent to be paid, power etc. The wages and conditions were subsidised from the client, Rio Tinto..... the contract Needed pilots with x amount of experience ect..... even with wages well above what a captain on Braz's or metro's get plus free rent they still could not keep pilots, why you might ask? because of a lack of pilots. Pretty simple.

The tide has turned. Warning to employers, you can't make money with out pilots, and you make more with good ones, so learn how to keep them or you will go under.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I'll answer the jet* problem with another post.

The conditions in jet* have been voted by pilots who will get quick commands, the Jet* condition will not atract the amount of pilots they need if the expansions plans they have a true. Wait an see.
With China expanding more pilots will vote with there feet and move abroad to better pay and conditions.

Supply and demand will see to this. A operator like Virgin may be smart and recognise this early. Personally I doubt it. But it will happen.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

My lord!

People on here talking about supply and demand determining pay and employment conditions.

People talking about leaving for another job if they don't like the pay instead of "joining a union"

someone pinch me quick.. surely I'm dreaming!! :E

[podbreak]

Aircraft, there is a global shortage of pilots which is clearly evident. PIA planes grounded due lack of crew, Thai developing new cadetship, Emirates battling to find enough pilots, Gulf establishing an Australian base, China Southern recruiting Aus capts, Dragon poaching A320 rated aussies, and more a more LCC offering bonds now for expensive endorsements. You think the global frenzy is due to a pilot surpluss? come off it. And Australia won't be immune to the shortage. Pick up the Australian on friday and read the aviation job adverts. Theres no surpluss of pilots, theres a shortage.

[aircraft]

Charliethewonderdog,

You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?

You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.

If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?

It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.

Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?

[aircraft]

Pass-A-Frozo,

Welcome to our thread. Have always enjoyed your posts!

Pilot shortage or no pilot shortage? Seems a perennial question. What do you think?

[Charliethewonderdog]

Charliethewonderdog,
You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?
You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.
If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?
It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?

:D Yes The pilots were living in Places like Pannawonica, T tree (free food on top of the package) and Karatha. Big deal.
And yes there were hour requirements, 500+ Multi being the big one. And this is the requirement that was the most difficult to find, because of a lack of pilots with this experience, pretty simple.

What part of this do you not understand??????? The company could not find pilots??? maybe because there is a pilots shortage?

The pilots who were there left because jobs in turbo prop rpt operations where snapping them up, becuase of the level of experience that they had. If the Rpt operations were not recruiting then there is a good chance Auswest would still be operating.:ugh: I dint know how long you have been in the Industry but times a very good for experienced drivers.

[M.25]

I will believe that there is a pilot shortage when I see my company voluntarily increase my wage, and start to give a :mad: about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.


Charliethewonderdog,
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?

So the pilots were STILL the lowest paid group on Rio Tinto's payroll? (speculation) I would hazard a guess to say that the cleaners probably earn more than that.:{ 62k is not a lot of money these days.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I will believe that there is a pilot shortage when I see my company voluntarily increase my wage, and start to give a :mad: about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.
All depends on how valuable you are to your organisation, and valuable you are to another. Move vote with your feet. Find a job where they need you and respect you.




So the pilots were STILL the lowest paid group on Rio Tinto's payroll? (speculation) I would hazard a guess to say that the cleaners probably earn more than that.:{ 62k is not a lot of money these days.

Correct they were the lowest paid group. Cleeners were on 90k+ in some places, more than F/O"s with Virgin or Jet*.

[aircraft]

And yes there were hour requirements, 500+ Multi being the big one. And this is the requirement that was the most difficult to find, because of a lack of pilots with this experience, pretty simple.

What part of this do you not understand??????? The company could not find pilots??? maybe because there is a pilots shortage?

You keep saying that the company "could not find pilots". I think what you mean to say is that pilots "were not coming forward".

So why were they not coming forward when they knew about the T&Cs? Obviously because they didn't feel the job was worth it. Sure the package may have been 62.5k, but when you take out rent (and other bits) the gross pay would have been around 40k.

So, for pilots with 500+ hours multi, on 40k living sometimes at mine sites and spending half the time in the right hand seat of a Baron - doesn't sound too enticing to me. The Auswest management would have realised that it wasn't very enticing after all and tried to increase the pay - but there would have been a limit on how high they could go - the limit set be Rio Tinto in the contract!

So, simple economics after all - how surprising!

[Cloud Basher]

And the cleaners got paid that because that it what it took to find someone willing to live out there.

Whilst there are definitely less experienced pilots avilable now than at any time I can remember, to call it a shortage is a little premature. You just have to look at the recruiting to know that there are fewer pilots available with the requisite experience to fill jobs, however I do not believe there is a shortage just yet as pay and conditions continue to at best stay stable or worst deteriorate.

As has been stated it is simply a case of supply and demand. At the moment supply still exceeds demand. I guess the question is will it continue? To my eyes it will in the short to mid term (5 years or so) as there are still shed loads of pilots coming through the system. Byond that who knows, will VB last, will J*intl die, will the Rat even survive?

Cheers
CB

[M.25]

I agree with cloud basher.

If there is such a shortage, how come skippers can ask for 500multi to be a metro f/o, take their pick of applicants, charge them for the endo, and then only employ them as casuals? If jet* are so desperate, why are their min requirements higher than qf and cathay combined.... and even with those requirements you would be lucky to get a look in......then IF you got a look in they expect you to shell out your life savings on an endo? Why have skywest decided that you need english, maths, physics plus an extra subject to fly for them? I could go on and on. :{

p.s. Work still receives at least one resume A DAY.
I pray every night that the shortage will come!!:cool:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I think it needs to be put in perspective. Sounds like a shortage of pilots that meet their qualification requirements, willing to live in a :mad: hole, and have a cash salary of $40k. I wouldn't be extropolating that result out to the entire industry.

[Charliethewonderdog]

You keep saying that the company "could not find pilots". I think what you mean to say is that pilots "were not coming forward".
So why were they not coming forward when they knew about the T&Cs? Obviously because they didn't feel the job was worth it. Sure the package may have been 62.5k, but when you take out rent (and other bits) the gross pay would have been around 40k.
So, for pilots with 500+ hours multi, on 40k living sometimes at mine sites and spending half the time in the right hand seat of a Baron - doesn't sound too enticing to me. The Auswest management would have realised that it wasn't very enticing after all and tried to increase the pay - but there would have been a limit on how high they could go - the limit set be Rio Tinto in the contract!
So, simple economics after all - how surprising!

The economics of the industry is that there a jobs everywhere if you have the experience. The pilots are not coming forward because they dont have too, they can go straight to regional now....... . Day's gone by a gig with Auswest would have been gold for a GA job, now it's GONE. No more.

They could not find pilots. Simple. Every Pilot that left took a paycut with their new job. Simply because they were getting Turbine, two crew experience that will be more valuable to them in the future than piston twin.
If these position were not there than they would still be a Aus west.Pilots with 500+ multi are getting jobs with regionals all the time until this stops than companies like Auswest and smallet RPT piston outfits will struggle to find pilots.

Why you ask because there is a shortage of pilots :ugh: :ugh:

You my friend a Twit if you can't see this.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I think it needs to be put in perspective. Sounds like a shortage of pilots that meet their qualification requirements, willing to live in a :mad: hole, and have a cash salary of $40k. I wouldn't be extropolating that result out to the entire industry.

True but the salary package was 62.k a year plus free rent, when out living on the minesites you also had free food, beers at $2 a stubbie etc...... .

The pilots left to go to bigger and better things and this has a flow on effect, it makes the company next doot value his pilots more, it proves to all other operators that if you dont have pilots you dont operate.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I agree with cloud basher.

If there is such a shortage, how come skippers can ask for 500multi to be a metro f/o, take their pick of applicants, charge them for the endo, and then only employ them as casuals? If jet* are so desperate, why are their min requirements higher than qf and cathay combined.... and even with those requirements you would be lucky to get a look in......then IF you got a look in they expect you to shell out your life savings on an endo? Why have skywest decided that you need english, maths, physics plus an extra subject to fly for them? I could go on and on. :{

p.s. Work still receives at least one resume A DAY.
I pray every night that the shortage will come!!:cool:

Jet* are looking for direct entry F/O' and have not expanded yet so can take the most experienced guy's.
Skippers are losing pilots as quick as they can get them. Times will change very soon.

The shortage will hurt the Smaller regionals first like skippers etc..... then the bigger regionals like REX.... This will happen next year when Jet* starts it's expansion. Pilots from Virgin will Jump for quicker commands either to Jet* or overseas.

The Majors in Australia have hurt the industry so much in the last 5-6 years and it willbite them hard very soon.

[neville_nobody]

One way to fix the problem is to erradicate the BS 500 multi rule. That will free the market up a bit. Allow people to pick who they want with or without 500 multi. 500 multi in a piston twin has very little resemblance to multi crew turbine flying anyway.

I've flown Americans around who have wet themselves laughing at the requirements to fly bugsmashers in Australia!! There are Ads in Flight Int'l to fly Jets with 500 Total!!

You know there will be a pilot shortage in this country when QF Link, Jetstar, Virgin stop charging for endorsements and pay rates start going up a bit. As that would appear to be a long way off I don't think we are anywhere near a pilot shortage yet.

[slice]

In the case of Auswest, alot of guys (myself included) found just too much of a gamble to do minesite OHS on your own dime and then go to Karratha for the 'possibilty' of a job.

[M.25]

Charliethewonderdog,

With all due respect (you might know more about Aus-west than I ever will), from an outsiders point of view their ‘selection process’ had some serious flaws.
I remember filling out an online application out of curiosity when they first advertised for pilots after raising the minimums and offering above award. After spending about 45miniutes answering all of the questions, I pressed submit….only to have a screen displayed stating that I did not meet the minimum requirements so my application could not be submitted. My shortfall was that I didn’t have multi engine NVFR on my license! (I can’t understand why you would need that if the operation was IFR anyway?)
Other requirements included some short mining course and senior first aid. I understand that these were required for the contract, but I don’t understand why they couldn’t at least accept applications without these small details and just dedicate a new employees first week to completing these short and simple courses?
I would imagine that out of the people that met the flying requirements, very few would have met ALL of the requirements…..even then those who did were then faced with a “3 phase selection process” which could be compared to that of a major airline. After passing stage 1 and then getting yourself to Karratha for stage 2 and 3 - “Assessment results cannot be discussed with the candidate on the day of assessment. Each candidate will be contacted by letter, fax, phone or e-mail as appropriate within 1 week of assessment.” A huge ordeal for a minesite job in a baron that you might not get anyway. Just a thought.

[...still single]

First up, I know nothing about Aus-West or how they operate, but in my previous life as a tradesman I came accross many companies who 'cannot get skilled workers'. INVARIABLY, these were the companies that had crap pay or conditions or supervisers with no people skills. Good companies will always get workers. They may have to work a bit harder to get them in lean times, and that is the real shock to GA. They may have to ADVERTISE and offer ABOVE AWARD PAY and GOOD CONDITIONS. Maybe even treat employees with RESPECT (the lady at Hardys take note). If this trend continues, GA might became a place where pilots would be quite happy to spend a few years before moving on to an airline.

[disco_air]

GA might became a place where pilots would be quite happy to spend a few years before moving on to an airline.

...or a place to stay perhaps? Just a thought.

..Disco

[hotnhigh]

Aircraft said:
Jetstar, being a low cost carrier which can't pay big salaries to aircrew in the first place,

Just like Ryanair,easyjet and southwest!:yuk:

[bushy]

How many single engined airliners are there in Australia?

Personally, I wish the airlines would recruit pilots straight out of the flying schools, with no minimum hours requirement.

Then the GA operators would be able to operate to a much higher safety standard, using experienced, dedicated long term GA pilots.

And the el cheapo operators woild not have a constant supply of "prostitute" pilots, who undercut the genuine bush pilots. They would not be able to undercut the genuine bush operators. So they would have to operate properly.
The industry would be much healthier, safer,and more stable. Bush pilots would be paid more, and operators would be better off because they would have far less problems, with experienced staff.

Sure, there would be a lot less pilots looking for jobs out bush. They would be looking for airline jobs in the city, and the true pilot employment situation would be obvious

So those pilots who call my home a "****hole" or bitch about "clappd out aeroplanes" could all stay in the cities. And we would all be better off.