Transition upgrades no more?? (EK)

[mensaboy]

Can anyone confirm the latest rumour regarding no more transition upgrades at all? Obviously nothing will be put in writing as this would cause a massive loss of face for some, as well as the resultant strain put upon recruitment when pilots around the world hear of this latest policy.
If this is the case, then there will be a vast increase in the number of DEC's coming to EK, provided of course the company can find some. There is no other possibility to crew the arriving 777's.
Airbus F/O's could be in for a very long wait for the opportunity to upgrade since there are no planned new arrivals of airbus for over a year. The numbers of captains on the airbus is approaching the required numbers, albeit less than what really should be planned, so in other words if an airbus F/O isn't allowed to transition upgrade, the left hand seats on the airbus will only become available due to attrition. The 90 or so airbus F/O's presently beyond the 3 year point remain F/O's while watching DEC's and the odd 3 year Boeing F/O jumping the line. Naturally this will have a follow-on effect for all airbus F/O's in the future as well.
In about a year of two we will begin to see the attrition of the early DEC's who had only planned a few years at EK. This will add to the higher than expected turnover rate at EK. I really question the long term cost savings of DEC's in spite of the fact that it was the clear aim EK management. Not to mention the lack of suitable F/O's now applying or the huge increase in F/O's and Capt's leaving. Too bad no one can put a cost figure on the general disharmony and low moral caused by the DEC policy either.
As an aside, why has all the interest from potential American DEC's seemed to have dried up? Is it the general unease in the ME, or the new tax laws to be announced from GW's regime or simply an overall reality check? Oh so curious here.....

[IXNAT]

As an aside, why has all the interest from potential American DEC's seemed to have dried up? Is it the general unease in the ME, or the new tax laws to be announced from GW's regime or simply an overall reality check? Oh so curious here.....

What makes you think that the interest has dried up? Perhaps those interested are tired of your constant whinning, mensagirl, and have looked elsewhere for reliable information. From friends and the such who are already in country. Or perhaps those interested don't want to ask questions of someone who has stated that (and I paraphrase), that all the US DECs are jerks or at least those you have flown with are. And by the way, you never did answer the questions on what made these guys such losers in your eyes? Perhaps they held you to a higher standard than you have been used to, or in reality was it just the opposite?

In all honesty, the legacies are making a comeback in the US. Slow, but are turning the ship around. Then again with goings on in the ME, gas will spike over 80US and back down they go.

See ya, mensa.........

[mensaboy]

To answer your question. I THINK the interest has dried up due to lack of postings on this site AND I have heard that the latest batch of American DEC's have....... en masse...... declined the course. (from a couple of Yank friends I have here) I never said I KNEW the interest had dried up, just wondering if its true.
To correct you again, I never said all American DEC's were jerks.
To correct you again, No one has asked me why i thought some weren't my type of people, but I will answer that now, since you asked.
Number 1..... Captain America............. nuff said
Number 2..... DEC's in sims who reject t/o's AFTER V1. Can't fly a NPA to save their soul. Extremely poor CRM. (yes i will agree this is second hand info but from reliable sources)
Number 3..... the most appalling RT
Number 4..... Hypocrits. Live their lives in relative comfort under the umbrella of some union, yet when it suits them......... come to EK and jump the seniority list
Number 5..... oddness, can't quite describe that properly but just a general feeling when chatting with some......... that they aren't your typical pilot.
And as i have pointed out in the past, it is just my opinion that we are receiving the bottom of the barrel at present. I highly doubt that the average American pilot is similar to Capt America or some of the other recent additions at EK. If you read into that properly, that is a compliment to the rest of America. And no, I don't automatically assume that a DEC, be he American or otherwise, is sub par. In fact, I know there are some great DEC's here, in spite of the fact that the policy is flawed.
I stand by my assertion that the DEC policy is detrimental to this airline. And I further believe that some of the recent DEC's would never have been selected at EK had they applied as F/O's in the past. Talk to any TRE or TRI and most will agree that the standard has been dramatically lowered over the past 2 years.

Anyhow, the point of my post was to determine if the rumblings of the transition upgrade policy being axed were indeed true. If it is true, then the future of this airline looks rather bleak from a pilots point of view. The infuriating part of it all is that none of this was necessary only a few years ago. This airline had a great bunch of guys to work with and I see that slowly being eroded with insane policies.

This is my venue to vent. I don't bitch at work and I don't join in the overall whinging. If you don't like my take on things, then fine. Feel free to join the few who I have offended here and slag away. I am more than willing to read sound arguments countering my POV and i am open minded enough to properly consider them. I truly HOPE i'm wrong regarding the level of DEC's, and for that matter F/O's we are receiving, but I have yet to read one fact that counters this.

[pintofstella]

Mensaboy,

very well said. i totally agree with it all. Pint of stella owes you a beer

[picu]

Then again with goings on in the ME, gas will spike over 80US and back down they go.

IXNAT, I honestly hope you're not putting the blame for the high price on oil on the Middle East. I can mention a myriad of reasons why the price of oil is high - the U.S. features in most of them.

[IXNAT]

First, I am not BLAMING the price of oil on anyone, just when speculators see problems (war, hurricanes, flow problems) the price goes up. Since Isreal and its neighbors are at it again, the price has gone up, another big hurricane hits the US oil rigs and supply, the price will go up. Most of the the legacies are turning it around, a lot due to pensions being desolved, labor taking big hits and lower capacity.

Nowto Mensa. Well, you finally got to it. Let's see, in my career I have flown with a very few Ozzies. One was a drunk and a complete mess, another a whinner about everything, and the other a great guy. And as pilots, their personalities matched their flying abilities. So what do deduce from this about pilots from Oz.....the three I have flown with over the last 20 years: one was a drunk, one was a whinner and one was a great guy. But I do have to say their RT was very good. US pilots, IMHO, have been brought up on the Chuck Yeager school and only in the last few years has there been a big push on correct R/t.

If a pilot consistantly tries to abort in the sim above V1, what's he doing out on the line?

So Mensa, I think some of your wranglings might have some validity, my point is that you setting yourself up for some harsh criticisism when slap a country's pilot group and not just the individual.

Now for the big question. The company line is that the aircraft could not be coming online as fast as they are without the DECs and the best possible scenario is to have aircraft arrive as fast as possible for growth. Without the DECs (and only 100 or so will be hired), aircraft deliveaies would be delayed. The upgrade is being sold at exactly three years now, no sooner. Only one training event for a DEC where an upgrade takes two. That's the company line, not mine.

Now go have that Stella, but just one.
IXNAT

[MumbaiRadio]

I was in company transport a couple of days ago heading to the aviation college together with another f/o who joined 1+ ago and who has been told already that he will start his transition upgrade on the 777 in january... and he's not going to be the only one... sounds like a good news for somebody..:)

[mensaboy]

I think you might have that story wrong Mumbai. I know of several 3 year and 6 month guys scheduled for an airbus course next January, but i've not heard of anyone being planned for a transition upgrade since this last batch. That makes the earliest upgrade courses on the airbus to be 4 years now, and that is of course subject to change. I know many of these individuals and to a person they should have been given the opportunity to upgrade over each and every DEC that has come to EK.
I do agree with you Ixnat, that to lump all pilots of a certain nationality into one category based on just a few examples, is foolish. My point is this. Since i joined EK i have flown with Americans off and on. They were typical of most pilots at EK at the time. Lately, since the push for DEC's, this has not been the case. Perhaps the BM's and those of his kind have stood out recently and people have labelled them as typical examples of an American DEC. Those individuals more likely to spend time schmoozing in the bosses office than the average new joiner for example.
It does fit a pattern here though and that is all i'm saying. When the job becomes less desirable and the need more apparent for the company, in all likelihood the standard will drop. Perhaps I have only seen the worst of the bunch. Its just that in all facets of the job the general sentiment from those i fly with, is that this is the reality.

[MR8]

Mumbairadio..

I can't call that good news at all. What's the difference between a 1 year F/O jumping over his colleagues with a transition upgrade or a DEC? The result is exactly the same, we, F/O's who are according to the FOM the first in row for an upgrade, have to wait for god knows what...

Disgusted again.. MR8

[IXNAT]

Mensa,

Ok we sort of agree. Again an example, at my last airline there was a distinct difference between military trained pilots and civillian trained. The difference was quite obvious both in the cockpit and in the air. But I had to be careful not to be prejudice, because as we do agree, when you break it down, you will find chuckle heads in all walks of life. You may be right, but let's hope the new DECs from the US that are just arriving might change your mind-at least about their abilities.

And yes, the word is that there are going to be some accerlerated promotions from the Boeing side. Even the new joiners if not as DECs will get advanced promotions if they have sufficient time, but not the 55 tonnes. Mensa, you have always known, everything is not black and white but with fifteen shades of grey. Sort of like the Pirates code in "Pirates of the Carribean", just guidelines, mate.

[Rabbitwear]

Something is strange about the DECs from the US , they come from the land of milk and honey they could get commuting jobs with Korean or ANA and live at home on more money yet they choose to come to the ME.
The legacies must be clearing the decks (taking out the trash)exept for BM whos gonna be EDs piss boy..
If somebody aborts above V1 I think they should not be fit for a command easy fix.

[IXNAT]

Try to explain again, why some choose EK over the others. As you know, very few DEC positions available for someone who does not have the exact type rating. ANA and the such have "NASA" type physicals. Recent friend interviewed and had a cholesteral reading TWO points over thier standard-bye, bye. Singapore requires a 45000US bond DEPOSIT for over five years with, in my understanding, the potential to lose it all if you leave a day early. Short course at EK is 12000US prorated over three years. Korean, need the type rating, 747 or 777. Believe it or not, EK is the easiest of all to make it work, compared to many in the Far East. Culture at EK more like US carriers than the Far East ones. Loss of pensions for retired low to mid fifty year olds who were able to get out with some money before it was "stolen". Most US carriers will not look at 50+ year old legacy trained pilots unless they need their expertise to start up. If they do, then copilot pay can be as low as 36000US/yr at some majors for the first few years-take a look at first year pay at UPS, Alaska Air, CAL and others on www.airlinepilotcentral.info (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info). So let's see: don't have a type on a 747 or 777 so that knocks out a lot of the Asian carriers, can't live on 36000US, want to preserve whatever 401k money one has for after retirement. Like it or not, EK offers housing, 100,000US (overtime included) tax free for most of it, a very low bond, and a 777 rating. Perhaps these guys are using EK for a year or so to get the rating, over 1000 hours in eighteen months for a bond of 6-8000 remaing. Not a bad deal. Now one can hit up Singapore, Korean, EVA or any of the others or even back to the US when the 777 cargo version hits the streets. Compared with unaccompanied deployments to GUAM, Gitmo, and other remote areas the Air Force and Navy headed out to, compared with eight month deployments at sea, landing at night in low vis. pitching deck conditions, refueling in a single seat fighter at night and then landing on said deck, EK can be a breeze.

Yeah, they had it pretty good for years, but now they have to make some decisions for the next few years of their flying careers. So overall, EK is an easier entry portal for these type guys than some of the Asian carriers.

I am not saying these guys are any better than anyone else by their past experiences. But they have made sacrifices and have put up with conditions far more difficult than flying for EK and living in Dubai, in the past.

But no worries guys, most of the legacy US captains will not now leave their carriers because of the financial improvements made by their carriers.

I have no dog in this fight other than I know a couple of the guys over there now, keep in contact with them. So far so good for them.
IXNAT

[ekpilot]

Mensaboy, why don't you post this questions on the "rumour buster" board? You might be surprised at the answer...

[LHR Rain]

iNXAT the question before the house is why do you feel that you need to come and take my job? Those US DECs sowed their own seed. Now they want to jump ship and take countless others positions. Get in line mate like everyone else!

[IXNAT]

Well to set the record straight, I am not in line to take anyone's job. But I do see it as a rhetorical question. At it might be a tough one to answer. But first a question to you, what seeds did the US DECs sow? Retiring from failing carriers and trying to preserve some of their retirement? Are the DECs causing trouble over there other than all being totally incompetent according to mensa?

Mensa asked why they were coming here instead of a position somewhere else. A tough one, admittedly. EK roadshows addresses this in that the arrival of the aircraft would be delayed if not for DECs. Believe them or not. Are any aircraft sitting because lack of crews? If so, that would seem to bolster their case, that if aircraft are parked even WITH DECs, then without them, more would be parked. Mensa went on to say, why not take a position more suitable for their lifestyles. A DEC is a DEC, whether it be Singapore, EVA, ANA or anywhere. Perhaps the local Emiratees feel you have taken their job by coming in to their country, setting up housekeeping and waiting for your upgrade that perhaps should have been theirs. But you might say the airline would never be what it is today without the expats of all ilks coming in. Make the same argument for DECs. Just a different ox being gorged. With more aircraft comes more flying, with more flying it requires more captains and at some point it will balance out. But with what is being said, it will be around 100 or so DECs coming in, around 8% of the total pilot roster. Is that right? Okay, 100 too many in your opinion. 100 f/os not being upgraded in a timely manner.

I guess the question still stands, why do they think they can come in over you and take your job? It appears it is like that everywhere there are not strong unions. I guess the only answer is to talk to your shop steward/union representative. Harsh, I know, but reality. Are they really taking your job or just delaying you upgrade? And would the upgrade be delayed because of no crews for the lack of timely aircraft delivaries. Remember, upgrade takes two training events, DECs only one. I know you can't be convinced, but maybe a different point of view. Oh yeah, they already did jump ship, just looking for a raft. Do you have a problem with just the US DECs or the ones from Germany, Gulf Air, South American carriers or even EVA?
IXNAT

[Fart Master]

"I guess the only answer is to talk to your shop steward/union representative."

It shows how much you know about this part of the world. You'll be from the US then:* := :ugh:

[Muttley Crew]

Something is strange about the DECs from the US , they come from the land of milk and honey they could get commuting jobs with Korean or ANA and live at home on more money yet they choose to come to the ME.
What are you talking about???? :confused: Some airlines in the USA have like 10000, 15000, 25000 pilots. Add them all up and don't you think there MIGHT be a lot of every kind of person under the sun??

Just because we see a lot of weird yanks doesn't mean they're all like that, these ones might just be the ones who got levered out of their own backyard...What's the difference between a 1 year F/O jumping over his colleagues with a transition upgrade or a DEC?Yawn... Been saying that for years.... Glad you noticed! :ok:

But the prize for the most dunder-headed line on pprune would have to go to:
Can anyone confirm the latest rumour regarding :rolleyes:

[LHR Rain]

The US carriers brought most of this onto themselves. They first fought for very generous packages. So generous that it bankrupt many airlines over in the states. Now in bankruptcy management saw a opportunity to go for the jugular vein and attack these unions. Pilots and various airlines have agreed to pay cut after pay cut. Then to top it all off they voted and agreed to get rid of their very generous retirement program. Yes that is right they have no retirement pacakage now because they voted to get rid of it. So cry me a river but you sowed your own seeds!

The other point before the house is that EK would not be where it is today without the DECs. EK knew about all these airplane orders for a very long time and should and could have planned accordingly. That is they should have started upgrading FOs many months ago to get ready for the onslaught of arrivals. There is zero reason for the DECs. They never have been needed just an excuse to screw the FOs and save money for the bottom line.

All DECs are problems in varing degrees but the US DECs take the cake as you like to say. They think they know everything especially the US Air DECs. Just ask Captain America he will tell you. I find it painfully ironic that with your strong unions and work ethics over there that you find it so accetpable to come and take or delay upgrades over here. Do you think we are just some desert rats not worthy of an upgrade? Again you sowed your own seeds now it it time to lie in it and live with your actions.

[IXNAT]

LHR Rain,

I hope you are not from the states, if your above post is any indication of your understanding of what has taken place at the US carriers. Because if you are, get your resume updated, because there are a number of US management jobs ready for you.

The unions bargained in good faith with managements during times before 9/11 when the legacies were making record profits. More profits than all the years combined. Management's agreed to the contracts. Tough negotiations all around. 9/11 happened and the US airline industry took a major hit for about two years. Ridership did not happen. To add to the problem Federal Law requires that pension funds be funded to a level particular. Back up a couple of years, when the stock market (most pension funds were in the US stock market) was booming. Could the carriers overfund these pension funds when awash in cash? No, fed. law prevented it. The stock market tanks after 9/11 and pension funds become underfunded, way underfunded.

Follow so far Rainman. Meanwhile, LCCs the likes of JetBlue, AirTran, and Southwest (all of which do not have pension funds, but rather retirements similar to EK) begin to get a foothold, and the legacies cannot respond as they have in the past due to the fact that 1) they are loosing a sh**load of money 2) they cannot fund the pension funds because they are loosing money 3) And finally they cannot make reinvestments because if they do make a profit it goes into the pension funds first. Unions responded to management requests from all the carriers. American took probably a total hit of 40%, Delta took 50% before bankruptcy and United and USAirways had problems that the unions couldn't respond to fast enough. Furloughs-tens of thousands. Delta at one point had over 10,000 pilots. Today, less than 5,000 I believe (not all furloughed, around 1500 early retirements). USAirway furloughed up to 15 years seniority.

Follow so far Rainman. Now comes the fun part. Ridership returns in the US. But the dept built up by the carriers is too much. Delta prior to bankruptcy was $22 billion in Debt. Now if the pilots flew for free, how much would that have saved Delta. Now the US ridership is getting very used to cheap fares and good service, JetBlue etc. The legacies match fares, lose more money. Oh yes, fuel did go up a bit. This is fact-when jet fuel goes up 1 cent, it costs Delta approx. $20 million a year. But all carriers are facing the same, but all carriers didn't have to fund pensions, and not just pilot pensions.

This dumping of traditional pension funds is not just for airlines. Major US corporations are dumping them right and left to be able to compete on a global market with corporations that don't have traditional pension plans. This will be the next big crisis that the US government will have to deal with. When corps dump pensions a semi government agency PBGC takes them. When these bankrupt carriers emerge from bankruptcy, if their pension funds were still in effect, then any monies made would have to go to fund the pensions. By dumping them, with union's approval, the carriers can emerge from chapter 11 and not have to fund and can concentrate on being an airline.

So Rainman, with price of fuel, funding of traditional pension funds being dictated to by the federal government, low cost carriers finally getting a foothold, debt due to 9/11...........You know what, you are right, it is all the pilot's greed that put the legacy carriers in the shape they are in.

Now back to the DECs where you are.......What is your response to the fact that you took and are taking UAE nationals' jobs by coming to the desert. A national airline being made up of mainly expats. Same game rainman. You can make any excuse you want...they didn't have the flying experience etc, etc. Well perhaps EK should just have expanded more slowly, not ordered hundreds of new aircraft and just waited until the experience level was there.

Class dismissed. Maybe a few hard facts amiss, but I hope you get the drift. The Wall Street Journal about a year ago did a massive story on this and they called it "The Perfect Storm" for the legacies.
IXNAT

And hey fart master, you wouldn't know sarcasm if it hit you in your ass, dumbf**k

[donpizmeov]

IXNAT,

There are plenty of guys that joined prior to July 2003 (thats when the DEC thing raised its head again) that have been eligible for command ( by that I mean they have been here for the period of time , and have the hours required for a command as described by the EK FOM) that have yet to be offered a command course. These guys were told by one of the grown ups at a pilots meeting when the DEC option was announced, that not one of them would be disadvantaged. Well come the end of this year, some of these guys will be disadvantaged by over 12 months. So if DECs were not hired, these guys would get the seat change, more FOs would be hired and the expansion would continue. There was a period a few years ago when 8 more of Laura Ashley's Quadro Puffs arrived at short notice that DECs were needed, however all deliveries now have been known about for years, and we have lotsa guys waiting to take there left hand seats. Its also interesting to note that the A346s and most of the A380 that were planned for next year are not coming. But still DECs are recruited. Its purely to save $s and has nothing to do with expansion.

All the guys that have joined post Jul 2003 have known that EK now hires DECs, and made their decision to join with this knowledge.

The hiring of DECs is here to stay. The FOs that joined between 2001 and Jul 2003 have been screwed by this, and they have been lied to many times by the EK grownups over the whole matter. I totally understand why they feel peeved by the way they have been mistreated.

Those FOs that have joined after this date, knew that they would see their command course be determined by the availablity of DECs to fill the seats. I don't think this policy is right, but at least they got to make an informed decision.

Now about your question re taking a UAE nationals job, and comparing it to the hire of DECs. I think there is one major difference between the two. EK are constantly hiring every National that shows an interest and had the aptitude. They even pay for all their training to make sure they can get enough of them. So they are not being displaced by an EXPAT. The fact is, there are not enough of them, but all those that want the job are getting the job. However, at the moment, we have lotsa FOs that have what the company has deemed is required to be eligible for a command course, yet they are not on these courses because of DECs. I hope you can see the difference.

Don

[LHR Rain]

INXAT thanks for the lesson. Yeah we all needed that. So you at Air Bubba gave up all your benefits and now you want to come over here and take our seats. Get in line bubba! You ain't special.
Don said it a lot more eloquently than I ever could. Is that how you sleep at night? Since in your estimation I took a locals job you can take ours? Every local who wants to work for EK gets the job as long as they pass the training. Fact of the matter is that very few locals want the job because they can make much more money in their family.
Save the history lesson for some sucker who would actually believe that crap. We all know what you voted to give up.

[PITA]

You really are a sad guy.

Go rain somewhere else.

"If you should come back, I shall taunt you a second time, you silly English kininiggit!!!"
(courtesy of Monty Python)

[ruserious]

Its purely to save $s and has nothing to do with expansion.

Amen Don, Amen, its only about money, forget honesty, quality, integrity, safety, best practice etc. Like it or not (and they don't) there is a cost to running an airline, you can only cheat it so much.

[Andu]

I usually lurk and not post on threads such as this one, but I feel I can’t let the following comment from IXNAT pass unremarked. What is your response to the fact that you took and are taking UAE nationals' jobs by coming to the desert.

IXNAT, your comment displays a depth of ignorance of the situation in Dubai and in EK that is truly breathtaking. (Some would be tempted to say that it closely parallels the ignorance all too often displayed by your government in dealing with a larger and far more serious situation in this part of the world.)

Where does one start trying to explain to someone so obviously totally out of touch? Let me put it this way. The day an Expat pilot “takes the job of a local pilot in EK”, I’ll sink my whole fortune into setting up a company selling pork futures on the Riyadh stock exchange.

As has been said already, being a pilot isn’t a job too many of the local lads aspire to. The vast majority would much rather become CEO of one of their father’s many companies – preferably about ten minutes after graduating from college.

The ones who do become pilots are almost all from not so well off families. (There are exceptions.) And what might surprise someone fed on a poisoned diet of US Fox News, with very few exceptions, they’re a damn fine bunch of young men and a pleasure to fly with. But many of not most of them put as much time into setting up businesses and running them as they do flying, to the point where most of them much prefer doing out and back single day flights to multi day away ones, (which they leave as much as possible to the idiot expats).

Add to that a very small local population base (less than 20% of the country’s total population are Emarati), and you don’t (at least yet) get enough local applicants to fill the needs of the airline.

Despite this, EK (read: the ruling family) is positively encouraging ‘locals’, (as the Emaritis are almost universally known here), to take up training to become pilots (and every other skilled position within the airline). And I can assure you, if they could, they would replace every expat with a local pilot tomorrow. And if that day should ever come to pass, they would terminate the contract of every expat pilot so quickly, we’d all be out of the country before the ink dried on our letters of termination.

Just as, I dare say we (or you) would do if the roles were to be reversed.

[IXNAT]

Gotta luv a good fight :O I will say you gentlemen are right in that I do not know the ins and outs of the nationals story. For that I will bow to your expertise, but rainman, your understanding of the US carrier situation is as ignorant as mine is of the situation with nationals at EK. And what did I vote on to give up? And don't worry, I sleep pretty well at night, thank you. But I'm not in 43 degree heat. It was actually around 22 last night. But boys, whether you like it or not DECs are a way of life there and at other carriers that don't have unions, even in the states when a new type aircraft comes on board. I will say one more thing (and I will crawl back into my hole and cross the NATs weekly)......At one point the (I like that) Air Bubba pilots were the highest paid in the world and yet get on the web boards and you heard the same type of whinning, moaning or however you mates, chaps or whatever, call it.

I sincerely wish you all the best of luck. Their are bigger issues going on in your neck of the woods than DECs. And I hope you get to fly with the two gents I know quite well over there. Despite the fact you think them scum, you will enjoy their company. Be good boys. I'm tired of this.
IXNAT