Sen. John McCain - Major A$$hole

[Rogaine addict]

This dip**** has a major hard on for pilots and their ability to eventually make decent money.

STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHN McCAIN
CHAIRMAN SENATE COMMITTEE ON
COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION
FULL COMMITTEE HEARING
ON THE STATUS OF LABOR ISSUES IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY
APRIL 25, 2001


We are all aware of the numerous problems facing the aviation industry.
Congestion, delays, and modernization of air traffic control are all issues
that seem to rise to the forefront to be addressed again and again. This
Committee, industry, the regulatory agencies and others have redoubled their
efforts to address these serious problems.

Recently, however, a new problem has risen, creating further havoc in our
system. While labor negotiations in the airline industry have been ongoing
for years, things have begun to worsen. The trend towards larger airlines
has given unions greater leverage which appears to have contributed to a
mind set that views any work stoppage as legitimate. Normally even
acrimonious labor negotiations are a part of the negotiating process with
both sides using what leverage is available to them to reach the best deal.
However, times have changed; these acrimonious negotiations now adversely
affect the American people.

Let me say from the outset that I have no problem with the right to strike.
Strikes are a legal remedy available under applicable labor statutes.
Recently, however, courts have found more and more that labor unions in the
airline industry have engaged in concerted illegal job actions. These
courts have issued temporary restraining orders and injunctions prohibiting
such actions. In recent months, United, American, Northwest, and Delta have
obtained court ordered relief from these alleged illegal job actions. In
American's case, the court fined American's pilots over $45 million for not
adhering to the injunction.

These actions have affected millions of consumers. Middle America has been
stranded time and time again as a result of this illegal union activity.
According to published reports, last year, United cancelled over 23,000
flights as a result of its pilots' refusal to fly overtime, destroying
carefully planned vacations and business trips. Northwest and Delta
cancelled thousands of flights preemptively over the holiday seasons to
combat alleged mechanic slowdowns and failure to fly overtime by pilots,
respectively. The pilots' sickout at American in 1999 left thousands of
people stranded, some of which have banded together to sue the pilots for
damages.

In this day and age, a job action at a major airline can have a catastrophic
effect on the aviation system and the consumer. The rest of the system
would have a difficult time absorbing the excess passengers and the system
could come to a standstill. While management and labor are affected by
this, both parties have contingencies planned in the event of a job action.
The consumer is the one most affected by this increase in labor actions. It
is family flying across country for their vacation, the daughter coming home
from college, and the son going to visit a sick parent who can not reach
their destinations because the unions have taken matters into their own
hands. In the case of pilots, these are people who, according to industry,
on average make $140,000 while working less than 80 hours a month. At the
same time, according to the most recent data in 1999,the average per capita
income was $21,281.

The last two pilot contract negotiations, United and Delta, both of which
had alleged job actions with far reaching effects on the consumer, resulted
in a pay scale where, by the end of the contract, the senior pilots will
make over $280,000 in base pay with the ability to make one-third more for
voluntarily flying 25 more hours a month. Not only should the consumer not
have to suffer as a result of this avarice, but many analysts are concerned
that with labor costs rising so high, airlines will not be able to survive
economically or will at least put themselves in a hole for years to come.
Labor costs for an airline are now projected to be over 33% of its fixed
costs.

Many people argue that management has a choice, but in reality, the choice
is to give in to higher salary demands that a company may not be able to
afford or face a debilitating strike that may cripple the airline and force
it out of business. I don't believe that anyone would argue that is a
choice.

We have convened this hearing to look at these issues. Although this
subject is one that can be very divisive along party lines, I have received
complaints from both sides of the aisle about the current situation. I
welcome the witnesses today and look forward to a lively and spirited
debate.

[CargoRat2]

I've always wondered about this "refusal to fly overtime" business. Surely overtime by definition should be voluntary. I ASK my colleagues if its ok to schedule them for this or that flight on days off etc. I one person does't want to, or has plans or whatever, I'll ask someone else. And if that doesn't work, I'll do it myself. Must say this seems to work.

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rgds Rat

[ChuckYeager]

280000$? I WANT A GREEEEN CAAAAAAARD!!!

[AffirmBrest]

Wonder how much that to$$er makes in a year, including all the money made from 'outside interests'.

But of course politicians have all that expensive, thorough, professional training and carry personal liability for mistakes they make...

D'oh!

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[A7E Driver]

Mccain used to fly A4s off carriers and get shot at for $20K per year. I suspect he is not in awe of airline pilots earning $300K.

[ex-expat]

I Love Sen. John M. for what he once was and did. To stay in the hand of his captures when he could have gone home was a testiment to his honor and courage. That said, he is so out to lunch on anything to do with pilots and the deregulated airline system he helped to vote into effect.

They wanted deregulation when it equaled $100 fares between JFK & LAX, but balked when nobody found serving up state New York with frequent Jet service profitable. He was more than willing to let a half a dozen airlines of historical note go out of business, but he think the government should stop workers from being able to bargin for contract if it inconviences him, or someone who might vote for him. They want 1960's service for a 1990's price. What can I say?

I am afraid John may have become just another politician after all those years inside the beltway. I would love to go one on one with him for just an hour to see if he really is as uninformed about what ails the US air travel industry. I'll never get that chance most likely and there are real doubts that he ever changes his mind about anything. The bottom line is labor and especially pilots will much spend time and money to limit his power (i.e. his run for President). "John, you could have been someone, you could have been a contender!"

Much regret,


------------------
ex-expat.

[wuzatforus?]

The fact that Senator McCain flew combat off carriers, and was a prisoner of war, in no way excuses his apparent willingness to conveniently overlook or twist the facts.
For example, to lambast pilots for "working only 80 hours a month" illustrates either extreme stupidity or outright dishonesty.
To use a similar yardstick, one could say that Senators work less than an hour a day on average. The time spent on research and preparation does not count, the time spent lobbying does not count, etc, etc, only the actual time spent on debate in the senate counts.
On this issue he is clearly playing to a gallery, and it demeans him and his past achievements.

[Hunter58]

And it is not 80 hours anyway. It's 80 scheduled block hours, a mere 20% off the legal limit a month and very short off the yearly maximum. Most hours at out of the body clock times, 2 hours preparation, bad weather, minimal ground equipment, and so on and so on and so on...

At least that is the average pilot's job in the freight industry!

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There's nothing like a three-holer...

[R U Local]

I'm very touched by your post. I'm going to have a wip round amongst my fellow cabin crew who earn £7,000 pa to see if we can help.

[wuzatforus?]

RULocal
Sorry, that one went right over my head, what precisely are you on about? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[LAVDUMPER]

Senator McCain is a war hero - and you're not! So quit the holier-than-thou attitude.

McCain also makes two VALID points. Airline pilots working for US majors have too much leverage - without pilots you can't fly... The same is true about the flight attendants and the mechanics - this business is entirely too dependent upon labor to operate. The airline business is a $hit "business" to work in from a management perspective - very difficult to follow your fiduciary duty and maximize profits for shareholders.

McCain is also right that a major disruption/strike at this point in this weak economy could have an adverse affect on the system. Do you disagree with that? Are you an idiot? He's right about these two points - it's just that he doesn't convey them in a manner that suits you because you are too close to the issue - if someone threatens your livelihood you will fight back.

I agree that airline pilots deserve more money and that they are "underappreciated" by most people. But you people need to examine the opposite perspective - otherwise you risk sounding like an idiot. McCain also isn't afraid to say what he believes - you need to credit someone for that - even if it is a bit misguided...

I don't agree with every point McCain makes, but don't knock a war hero - he endured more PAIN than you would in most lifetimes. You may disagree with his stance, but don't knock him - you'll end up looking like a jerk!

[SKYDRIFTER]

C'MON NOW -

With U.S. baseball and football players making into the millions per year for having fun and not risking their lives, what's McCain's beef with pilots?

Just because the average pilot didn't get their family jewels removed in the Hanoi Hilton, McCain has a bout of penis-envy going - understandably.

If McCain gave a care about flying safety, I'd appreciate his genuine care for Americans. However, his continued support of the ATA membership against safety laws and regulations, with a laser focus on corporate profits; he's a pawn, a loser and a whiner, however powerful he may be.

It's not a reality of the airlines losing money for having paid the pilots the wages. The airlines are still making record profits. What's wrong with the pilots wanting a share. The fuel increases cost the airlines radically more money, but McCain doesn't care. His money interests (campaign contributors) profit wonderfully from the fuel expense. It's about maximizing the corporate profits at the expense of wages, benefits and safety.

The impending downfall of the FAA leaders attests to the safety issue. Not that anyone in power cares, they care that they got caught. Where's McCain on that issue?

Jane Garvey was fully informed all along the way. It didn't take this long for her to get a conscience, it took her this long to get 'way busted,' in the current American jargon. Was McCain concerned? He's nobody's 'American' in the traditional sense.

If the mechanics and flight attendants can maximize their wages - good on them, too. Let's see if they can find the courage to risk, the same way the pilots did. I'm on their side.

Forums such as this make a difference.

[Sunshine Express]

Just a thought, I suppose being a war hero
depends which side your on.?

Anyhow, if the economy relies on aviation it
must be a good time to ask for a pay rise!

[Blacksheep]

But I thought that everyone knew that Trade Unionists are just a bunch of whining pinko commie b*st*rds? If it weren't for the sacrifices made by John McCain and his like the workers would all be running around in Cadillacs while "working" a twenty hour week. Its getting so that upright, honest, law abiding capitalist fund-raisers can't find decent help any more. Have you tried to find a decent Butler anywhere these days? NO! They're all working for damned airline pilots! I rest my case...

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Ignition Override]

Many interesting observations made. LAVDUMPER: you've made excellent points and reflect, in a unique way, the respect many of us have for McCain's (like the others, along with my hatred for Hanoi Jane Fonda, the rich "Communist" w***e, when it was hip at UC Berkely, UW Madison...conveniently turned capitalist: her well-documented record speaks for itself, also) sheer guts and stamina, supported by belief in his country, in order to try and survive years in solitary confinement while repeatedly injured by torture and expected to cooperate for propaganda etc. Try not to get me wrong here-his truly awesome background both as a Navy Attack pilot (quite an accomplishment in itself, no doubt) and later as a US Senator speaks for itself-but the Pprune discussion(s) about him might be more objective if Pprune members can avoid feeling like it is a personal attack on the MAN (as opposed to the politician), because of our admiration for his guts and determination? By the way, Lou Shattuck, former F-105 "Thud Driver" (also a Hanoi POW for several years, later flew with the Holiday Inn aerobatic team?) was in my Dad's student pilot class in the early 50s.

What some of us don't like is McCain's distortion of salaries and equating a full flying month to someone working inside a corporate cubicle for 40 hours per week. Many US jet airline pilots, yes-jets, as FO, qualify for US govt food stamps to feed their families: flying the CRJ, Avro, Embraer....and Senator McCain implied that we all have excellent salaries and don't have plans on our days off-that's where he's speaking pure B.S. McCain earlier questioned the patriotism of very many US airline pilots, with a similar arguement, no matter whether we are veterans or not. Only a fool or would question McCain's immense patriotism-but that is not the case here. But a number of the Senator's comments seemed like a low cheap shot and in questionable taste, at best, no matter what McCain's own background consists of.

None of this detracts from my admiration for his past accomplishments and basic integrity. Why can't questions about a govt leader's well-scripted (he has a large staff for research?), very inaccurate, sweeping generalizations be tolerated? Is he above any criticism or questioning? Now this seemed to have been the case with many "patriotic" leaders in the 30's 40's etc-does anyone see my point?

Must/should any remarks and philosophies of any much-admired politician always be unquestioned in a democracy? If so, what if all top govt leaders's remarks were above reproach?

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]

[Steepclimb]

It's interesting that pilots are probably the highest paid workers who are represented by Unions. I think that in part is the real issue. Certain elements HATE Unions, all the more reason to keep them. Without Unions pilots would be paid like bus drivers and treated the same.
In any case like any big capitalist exercise, market forces are in operation.
Let's just try and set up an airline and pay the pilots 'realistic' wages.
I think the saying is; 'Pay peanuts and you get monkeys'.

Also being America, there are always alternatives, if you don't pay pilots competive salaries they'll walk out of aviation if need be. You can get paid the same money in your own business or working for a big player and get to fly your own aircraft on your days off, much more fun and very common even now.

As for John McCain, just because you're an ex pilot and war hero doesn't stop you being a shmuck!

[This message has been edited by Steepclimb (edited 07 May 2001).]

[Squawk 8888]

"Refusal to work overtime" is an illegal job action? Has not the eminent senator heard of the 14th amendment? You know, the one that abolished slavery and gave individuals the right to negotiate the terms of their employment? Sickouts are one thing, but if a refusal to work overtime is causing so much chaos doesn't it indicate that management should do more to attract & retain competent pilots, maybe even invest in scholarships and pay the newbies a bit more? Am I missing something here? Or is it just a classic case of airline executives deciding it's cheaper to buy a few politicians than to invest in their own operation?

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Per dementia ad astra

[SKYDRIFTER]

BAD SUBJECT, I REALIZE -

A little remembered fact in history was that Hitler's first target was the union leaders. As extreme an association as that is, question why the U.S. government has a fetish against guns which account for a miniscule number of deaths compared to the malpractice fatalities attributed to medical doctors. Drug-alcohol related deaths dwarf gun fatalities, as well.

War hero-turned-traitor is no war hero. He either fought for the American way of life or he's another corporal Hitler.

I hate to be that brutal, but McCain's selective silence on major issues while attacking the American ideal of having the best life possible - and within legal means - is suspect in the best light.

I have the highest regard for McCain's war record and do not envy his time in Hanoi. I hope his zeal for the American people versus the american corporation isn't an illusion.

If McCain-the-politician wants to do something worthwhile, let him examine the wage conditions of the beginning pilots in his own state. If he wants to cry 'foul' with the starting conditions and wages with such carriers as American West and Mesa Airlines, I'll listen.

Until then he's a Lackey for the American corporations who don't have voting rights - does that bring a thought to light? [$$$]



[This message has been edited by SKYDRIFTER (edited 07 May 2001).]

[Roadtrip]

We all earn our wings every day of our lives. Past accomplishments are something to be proud of, not to be used as license to be untruthful and banal in the present or future.

McCain has shown what real cloth he is made of now. By publically referring to United pilots as unpatriotic, is beyond pale and unworthy of a leader. His referal that pilots make so much money for working only 80 hours per month was disingenous, if not an outright purposeful misrepresentation. He knows better. I think his son is even an airline pilot. Can someone please confirm this? Either he is stupid, reckless, impetuous, and/or a liar. Any of these character faults disqualify him as a leader.

I too served my country for 22 years, and I was greatly offended by McCain. And to think, during the primary elections, I was almost fooled into voting for this petulant jerk.

[OneWorld22]

Sorry folks, but what do you expect from a Republican? These guys will spend their political lives trying to trample unions into the ground, they are allied to big business and that's it.
I brought this up when warning folks about Bush being elected and still pilots came out supporting him, I guess when he allows Lorenzo back in to the Business, then, maybe, you might wake up.

[RRAAMJET]

His son flies for AA - so do several of his former colleagues interned in the "Hilton";

they hate him. Lavdumper take note.

[Ignition Override]

You guys know how to portray the situation well, and in fewer words than this steam-gauge guy.

Just a few questions this time (what a relief!): how does one equate flying in the military on a mission, no matter what- training pilots, keeping proficient in bomber/tanker/fighter/attack/recon/ASW, C-20, C-9 or C-5 etc cargo/pax airlift... to the civilian operations? Do the airlines exist to perform peacetime or combat missions only for our country at strictly "volunteer" wages? Heck, military pilots here still earn not much more per month than the folks flying a desk, unless I've missed something.

Let's hear what Senator McCain says about the grossly underpaid pilots at Mesa and America West, as somebody (more astute than me) pointed out. He is probably selectively ignorant on those facts too, despite Phoenix, Arizona banks helping a good bit to keep America West Airlines afloat years ago.

[pakeha-boy]

Senator McCain + lavdumper = ******s!!!!

[ST1]

Sent Mcain has been targeting civil aviation for a long time. As the senator on the FAA Management advisory Commitee he targeted Phil Boyer personally in his fight to charge corporate a/c more. He did not know his facts about civil aviation then and does not seem to have paid much attention since!

[Brad737]

I fired off an E-mail to McCain last week. Won't do any good but I felt better. He distorts "working" 80 hrs/month with "paid" 80 hrs/month. I "work" about 150 hrs/month and am on the road over 300 hrs/month--He knows this but his distortions make headlines, and headlines make it easier to raise re-election funds. If labor has so much leverage, how was "W" able to effectively de-claw ALPA with his pre-emptive PEB threat. When you read about all the "labor" woes, insert "management" in its place and you will be more accurate. Labor strife is a direct result of management missteps. As for McCain's DD-214 (that's his service record) I honor his service 30 years ago but it in no way offsets his actions today. A previous post hit it on the head, he's been in DC too long, he's just another one of "them" now.

[BenThere]

I have to support Lavdumper. Sen McCain rightly pointed out the disruption in people's lives caused by labor problems at airlines. I have to sympathize with people who can't make a family wedding or funeral, see their son play in the Rose Bowl, lose their vacation, etc. because airlines aren't operating as advertised due to pilot actions. I wish there were some way to get the public on our side when we have disputes. We can't do it with wildcat activism - it hurts our cause every time it happens. I believe the time and place for work action is after the cooling off period, when the public is forewarned and can make other arrangements, negotiations have been conducted and failed, and we exercise our legal strike authority. Sickouts, slowdowns, even company-wide refusals of overtime when overtime has become part of the expected pattern are, if one is honest, illegal in spirit and lower us in the public esteem. I'll be the first one to support a strike at my company or another ALPA company when it is done above-board and within the law. I, like the public don't like other job actions intended to disrupt the public or destroy the company.

[Huck]

Wasn't McCain's current wife a flight attendant? Perhaps that is the font of his anti-pilot bovine scatology.....

[Ignition Override]

BenThere has some valid points about how circumventing the Railway Labor Act has hurt our unions, in the media/public's eyes, and in the White House and Congress, where we need all the support we can find (strange how most pilots seem to vote Republican but any actual tolerance of organized labor is mostly from the Democratic Party). These comments were made in a detached style, unlike those referred to on a previous page.

[SKYDRIFTER]

ACCORDING TO MAYR MOSTERT ON THE INTERNET -

"When the issue was being debated for opening up diplomatic relations with Vietnam and removing sanctions against Vietnam, on the floor of the Senate July 1, 1993, John McCain said, in supporting Clinton's determination to open diplomatic relations with Hanoi, in spite of Republican opposition:

I would point out that I believe that President Clinton will act in what is in the best interest of the United States of America. He will make that decision receiving information from our military advisers, from our State Department advisers, from his National Security Adviser, including the men and women who have been in the field in Vietnam making heroic efforts to try to ascertain as to whether there are any Americans left alive and also recover the remains of those who died in that activity.

So, I would hope that and I know that Senator Dole and all other Members will respect the decision even if they disagree when the President makes a very important foreign policy decision. I believe that it is in the interest of the United States of America for us to make progress. "

[Roadtrip]

UAL pilots refusal to work VOLUNTARY overtime last summer was completely and utterly the fault of Mr. Goodwin. ALPA TOLD him a year prior that the schedule that he drew up could not supported except by extraordinary efforts by pilots. In addition, he knew the contract would be in contention at that time. Nevertheless, in an unbelievable act of stupidity, Mr. Goodwin bet-on-the-come and LOST.

Overtime is COMPLETELY at the discretion of the individual, as set forth in the CONTRACT. Pilots fullfilled their contractual requirements. I beg to differ with you Ben There -- just because I worked overtime VOLUNTARILY last month, doesn't obligate me to work it this month -MORALLY OR LEGALLY.

The travelling public doesn't give a damn about my family or my bank account. We provide a service FOR MONEY to the company, who provides service to the public FOR MONEY. Airline pilots do their part A LOT better than airline managements do. If you want to play the blame game, lay it at the feet of management. Bad labor relations are almost ALWAYS a result of inane and foolish management. The same goes for airline failures - bad management and fuel costs kill airlines, not pilot's salaries.

As far as Mr. McCain goes, his public inference that UAL pilots were unpatriotic because they would not work voluntary overtime was beyond the pale, a bald-faced LIE, and meant to engrandize his hot-headed ego in the eyes of an misinformed public. Mr. McCain is beneath contempt, regardless of his past hero status. There are many UAL pilots who served their country as honorably as he. I served my country for over 20 years. I took deep offense in his slander. McCain is unfit to lead anything.



[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 12 May 2001).]

[BenThere]

Road Trip
I accept that you have a perfect right not to perform overtime. The distinction I make is whether that choice is a perfectly valid personal matter, or part of an organized attempt by labor to collectively cause flight cancellations. That's where I think the ice is thin. Don't get me wrong - I'm ALPA through and through. I do however, want to hold my head high and do things the right way and have public opinion in my favor. The dilemma is that sometimes messages do need to be sent to management and there aren't a lot of choices open to us now, which is why we have the PAC for political purposes. We need to think of new ways to legally challenge management when we need to. I would say the most likely areas for improvement are cultivation of the media, and developing allies in both political parties.
Regarding John McCain. He went through some bad times on our behalf. He's entitled to his outlook and opinions. The people of Arizona can pull his ticket if they want. I find Barbara Boxer more offensive on her best day than John McCain on his worst. But she's entitled to her outlook and opinions, too.

[SunSeaSandfly]

ben there
I reserve the right to disagree with anybody, or everybody.I am exercising that right.

Your assertion that witholding overtime was in some way immoral because it would have a predictable effect of disrupting flights is disingenuous.

The outcome was not clearly predictable to United's management, unless they had some sort of agenda. From reports I see, they were advised some time ago that rosters could not work without the automatic use of VOLUNTARY overtime.

They thought they knew better.

Who are the "mere pilots" to question the wisdom of United's management?

So when the pilots stopped working overtime Managements plan should have kicked in and things should have continued smoothly.

To assume anything else would mean that management were unaware of the implications (asleep at the helm), or fully knew the implications, and were willing to risk the outcome.

There is a cryptic Caribbean slang that covers this situation; "if you ehnt 'fraid to dead, why I must 'fraid to kill yuh ?"

I think Roadtrip is right on this one.


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fly low, bite hard

[Huck]

As one of the ~10,000 or so in the stack waiting on an interview at UAL, let me point out it would have been far cheaper for Goodwin to hire some more of us than count on overtime.

Yes, it probably was an organized refusal. ALPA has the cheek to believe a pilot should be able to make a decent wage WITHOUT coming in on his days off.

It's interesting to me - send an offshore oil worker to a rig for 14 days, and the world agrees he deserves 14 days off. Sent a UAL pilot on a 14 day trip, and he is living so luxuriously he should work some overtime, for his country, you know.

[Roadtrip]

Huck - It's usually always cheaper for the company to pay overtime than to hire more pilots. That doesn't necessarily make it smart business, though. I understand UAL stopped hiring until Sept. I wonder what that'll do to them in the long run, especially since the U merger is very uncertain. If they do get US Airways, then the whole kit a kaboodle will be overstaffed and may result in furloughs. No wonder the UAL pilots are against it. Just like American, I'd much prefer to grow at a controlled rate with pilots at the back of the seniority list. I think if UAL gets US Airways, hiring at UAL will slow to a standstill.

[SKYDRIFTER]

HUCK -

Good analogy. The oil-rig worker doesn't have to quit/retire at 60, either. Coffee / smoke breaks are sacred. Max shift = 12 hours.

Remembering the common philosophy that a contract is 90% to protect pilots from their fellow pilot, McCain fits into the picture. Watch that guy!

I'll be shocked to see a movement for pilots to upgrade their civil rights to that of a bus driver.

Emergency Revocations, Mandatory Retirement, Mandatory Overtime, Mandatory 'Bank' Time??? Hey, something is really wrong in this picture!

[BenThere]

Thanks to SunSeaSandfly and Roadtrip for responding to my post. To clarify the thread, I didn't use the term "moral", Roadtrip did. My assertion was meant to be that an organized overtime stoppage, along with sickouts and slowdowns were:
1. Probably illegal
2. Damaging to us
Take a survey of pax/public about the cause of the problems at UAL last year during the overtime action. I suspect the results would be:
1. Greedy pilots - 90%
2. Stupid management - 10%
Among pilots, of course, the results would be inverted, but that doesn't matter. My purpose in this discussion is to find a way to take action legally that doesn't throw the public, and resultingly, the politicians against us. The judgment against American's union should be a wake up call against taking action that won't stand up in court. If carried out, it will bankrupt the union while further alienating the public. Is that the result we want? One final thought: I think 10,000 letters to congressmen is more effective than 10,000 sickouts which halt an airline. Thanks, again for your responses and debate.