RAF SAR to deploy to Afghanistan [Archive]

NRDK

10th Jul 2006, 19:27

With the vast number of years and experience gained at great expense, it is only right that this asset finally gets its chance to do what it really should do namely CSAR and the dangerous all weather mountain ops that only it can perform. I'm sure the SH & Army crews and service personel in theatre would welcome the arrival of this support.

Please feel free to copy and send the following to your local MP for Des Browne's attention;

Dear Sir
With the increasingly difficult and dangerous tasks inherent in Afghanistan, missions to support this fragile and vital region of the world do indeed require the extra commitment of troops and more importantly as stated recently, that of Helicopter support. To this end the question begs; why are the vastly experienced crews of RAF Search and Rescue not mobilized for this task?

The men and women of this Branch are perhaps some of the most proficient crews in difficult all weather mountain operations by day or night. They are fully equipped with advanced sensor systems and to prepare the aircraft for that theatre of operation would not take too much time nor expense in the grand scale. The provision of the UK SAR element undertaken by the current 6 RAF SAR bases could be spread and shared by the operators of the remaining 6 i.e. the Royal Navy & MCA. Perhaps a partial reduction to half of the current RAF bases would be practical? Some of them must be quiet enough in terms of rescue demand? I suspect that powers to be within the RAF would not wish to lose the Public Relations value that a few rescues here and there attract. To stop gap cover this, it would not take too much to source short term contract support from the providers of the Civilian SAR providers namely CHC Helicopters & Bristow Helicopters, both companies with vast experience in this field.

As an ex serviceman, I feel that the tax payer and more importantly the men and women risking their lives in the Afghan theatre would be better served if supported by these elements. I believe that this asset is supposed to be the UK Combat Search and Rescue pool of experience, complete with its own training school of very experienced instructors at RAF Valley, albeit some are civilian. I humbly request and believe it would be reasonable of you to enquire an explanation from the RAF hierarchy, as to why this expensive asset is so redundant in its support for the stretched frontline services, namely the troops in theatre.

Sincerely yours

Tombstone

10th Jul 2006, 19:33

Not all convinced that the Seakings are up to the task of high altitude flying, in hot weather conditions. The crews are second to none however, putting them out there with the kit they have would, IMHO, be irresponsible.

extpwron

10th Jul 2006, 19:35

It’s a Sea King not a Land King. Check the aircraft’s ODM against typical density altitudes in theatre – that’s why it will never deploy.

rudekid

10th Jul 2006, 19:51

NRDK

Good work, nearly bit...:E

Very amusing, I hope!

Bet you some of the SAR Boys bite though...

JTIDS

10th Jul 2006, 20:44

Sounds like a balanced thought out plan to me!
Send me in :E :E :E :E :E :E :E

L J R

10th Jul 2006, 20:48

Will they fix the cab in Lossie in time to go?

ethereal entity

10th Jul 2006, 20:51

Just remember to write some nice letters to all of the relatives of the civvies who die because the Bristows lot etc can't use NVG below 500ft so the fallen climbers will just have to rot.

Haha - SARBOY's won't bite - they might be a bit bitter, but as you quite rightly said, they are the best pilots around, and they know better. If only they had a decent aircraft instead of the dangerously unsafe and appallingly unserviceable Seaking.:D

Compressorstall

10th Jul 2006, 21:06

And the aircraft are already painted yellow to fit in with the sandy background...

It would be great to think that deployable SAR works. It was hinted at for Bosnia and it would have been great for the SAR Force, but arguably the most operational force in the UK Armed Forces doesn't have the people or the kit to go and do warlike things...1982 sowed the seed that was never followed up on.

Tombstone

10th Jul 2006, 21:33

I wrote an entry into my diary on the way over here tonight, it simply read...

Bugger. :ugh:

Good effort NRDK. :D

SASless

10th Jul 2006, 21:42

Talk to me about the performance of a SeaKing at 10,000 feet and summer temps?

Sven Sixtoo

10th Jul 2006, 22:03

SASLess

Good question, well put, deserves an answer.

Having tried (and failed) to get a very light Sea King on a mountaintop at 9800 ft and about -30, I think the answer is that Vmin exceeds Vmax by a considerable margin.

Difficult, over.

Now if we had Carson blades ...

Sven

SARREMF

10th Jul 2006, 22:06

I love this idea. Its what we all wanted to do years ago. However, alas NRDK, me thinks they might be right about the performance. Still might be worth checking though before this idea gets completely wiped off the agenda - whoose agenda not sure but.....

She's a good old bus and when flown hard tends to stay surviceable longer - or at least it did? Interenstingly, most of the stuff in the Helimund province has actually been in th elower regions .... thinks???

Navaleye

10th Jul 2006, 22:17

OK so we have:

Sea Kings: Can't get over the mountains with any crew on board.
Jaguars: Its a bit too hot and a bit too high.
GR4: Runway is a bit bumpy
Wokka: Anything you like so long as its at night.
Apache: What are the other 61 up to?

Not a good ad for UK military aviation is it?

Without Care

10th Jul 2006, 22:26

:D NRDK, a superb effort; you do great justice to your name. However, not good enough, try harder.....

WC:=

geniculate

11th Jul 2006, 07:09

Well if you can't fly up there, try walking!

The RAF had Desert Rescue Teams in Oman back in the 70's running around the mountains with .303's strapped to their backs.:uhoh:

South Bound

11th Jul 2006, 07:20

[quote=Navaleye]
Wokka: Anything you like so long as its at night.
quote]

Funny, they seem to be doing a whole lot of day time flying at the moment. Anything you like, whenever you need it. Just need more...

Bertie Thruster

11th Jul 2006, 07:51

NRDK

11th Jul 2006, 08:35

Tombie

What’s this about not being up to the task, I believe the Fleet Air Arm Sea King Mk 4 aircraft get about OK after being sent to mountainous Countries? Ditch the extra weight of the radar and tea urn. As for the equipment not being quite up to the task, well they can be in the same boat as the rest of the ‘under equipped’ forces out there. At least they can ply their trade at last and support the frontline forces, whom no doubt would be grateful of the any extra air support.

EE:

I believe that the RAF/RN/MCA crews managed to fly about at night in the hills pre NVG to save lives or has SAR only been achievable since the RAF got NVG’s? What about the letters to those families of the brave servicemen lost in action because they aren’t getting the extra support when the expertise of the RAF SAR crews could make the difference? Surely they won’t mind volunteering for active service and spending time out doing the job they are trained and paid well to do. Let the poorly prepared fool rot at the foot of some Scottish mountain if it would save one valuable serviceman’s life in Afghanistan. At least by getting out there they can prove one way or another that they can do the task or need new machines to service the Countries needs. IMHO

SARowl

11th Jul 2006, 08:41

airborne_artist

11th Jul 2006, 09:30

BBCi report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/5167612.stm) on missing glider:

"A helicopter was scrambled from RAF Boulmer in Northumberland but was diverted to Leuchars after hitting a bird.

A second helicopter is currently grounded at Boulmer due to technical problems.

The RAF's search and rescue helicopter based at Lossiemouth is also grounded after having to make an emergency landing last week. "

snowball1

11th Jul 2006, 09:41

Where would we get the techies from?

sarboy99

11th Jul 2006, 10:11

If we did go would we have to work more than 9 days a month? Besides some of us have business's to run and can't afford to go away for a long time. I have also read on the news that the folks over there don't want us anyway.:=

sarmonkey

11th Jul 2006, 12:17

Unfortunately for the British Army and RAF fast jet pilots, RAF Seakings will never deploy to a combat theatre. Rescuing bikini clad lovelies from the beach whilst being videoed by the Air Force propaganda dept, has far more PR value than saving our boys in the Middle East. Also no AFC's for rescuing downed airmen in Afghanistan - because that's the job you're supposed to be doing.

All true, apart from the fact that anyone in the RAF knows that our half-ar$ed PR dept couldn't get it in the news if we rescued Claudia Schiffer from the coast after she crashed the baby-oil tanker she was skippering into the Swedish netball team's cruise liner.

That, and the fact that the RN get all the AFCs nowadays...

Green Meat

11th Jul 2006, 15:37

Monkey, you are obviously a dirty, filthy boy with a gutter-like imagination.

If, however, the situation you described should occur, please do remember to post the video on here for training purposes ;)

sarmonkey

11th Jul 2006, 17:12

Will do.

I keep several videos of similar situations, just in case such an emergency does arise. Ever the professional...

akula

11th Jul 2006, 18:00

NRDK,

Whilst SAR and CSAR may sound very similar, they are worlds apart in operation and require different skill sets and operational capabilities in both the crew and the platform. Furthermore, the Op support needed to carry out CSAR Ops is vast and likely to be out of reach for UK forces.

ALWAYS assume NEVER check

Compressorstall

11th Jul 2006, 18:07

UK CSAR comes in the form of JPR, but it is a 'no cost, double-earmarked capability' for the RAF Merlin Force and the RN Commando Helicopter Force. Why should we be worried about the ability to deploy the 'double-earmarked capability' at a time of huge operational committment..?

Bertie Thruster

11th Jul 2006, 20:34

Has RAFSAR changed since the '90's? Never had to put combats on for 12 years. (Lucky really; apart from the set I was temporarily loaned while at Cranwell, I was never issued with any others for the whole of my RAF career!!)

SARREMF

12th Jul 2006, 17:52

Akula, some of what you say might have been true some time ago but, we aint doing it that way anymore. The US has moved subtley away from the 80 mission package for one person - bless you Scott.

Since all this kicked off in Afghanistan in 01 the US has done things differently. This is not the correct place to talk the hows and why's but, having worked for the JRCC co-ordinating CSAR - any SAR crew with a relatively small amount of extra training could do it.

Compressor stall has the UK policy in a nutshell. See not difficult really.

No Vote Joe

12th Jul 2006, 18:50

I take it you're not a fan, Jungly!!:8

rudekid

12th Jul 2006, 19:22

SARREMF

Sorry to reply to your patronising post but I must enlighten you, you are talking bol:mad: cks. If you feel the need to hint at a level of super secret specialist knowledge at least get it right.

If you knew anything about Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, you would know this.

A small amount of training relative to what? I'm sure some of the younger, modernising SAR Boys would love to get their mitts on this role, the majority of ones I've met (p:mad: ss and biscuits brigade) don't.

Akula- You're spot on.

No Vote Joe

12th Jul 2006, 19:53

[QUOTE=rudekid] I'm sure some of the younger, modernising SAR Boys would love to get their mitts on this role, the majority of ones I've met (p:mad: ss and biscuits brigade) don't.

We all get older (and some get wiser) dear chap. One day, you may be the one who fits the bill, with the tar and feathers you use starting to stick to yourself!!!! ;)

rudekid

12th Jul 2006, 20:11

NVJ

Good to see some life in you old dogs! We'll get you in the sand-pit yet!

Pokes sleeping lion with stick, steps back...;)

No Vote Joe

12th Jul 2006, 20:43

Sleeping lion receives slight irritation on right rump.

Slight scratch ........ goes back to sleep....... mmmmmmm, could do with a digestive!!!!

:ok:

NURSE

12th Jul 2006, 21:23

Who provides the ground element of CSAR in UK is it the RAF Regt as I've heard some of their officers claim (along with seizing airfields, Defending Airfields, All NBC recce, All force protection, all GBAD, All ground operations)

[email protected]

14th Jul 2006, 05:39

Dear Des Brown and NRDK, the RAFSAR force would love an opportunity to help but until someone gives us enough aircraft capable of the role then we are a bit stuck. If anyone in Downing St had access to the RCS computer system they would see the apalling serviceability of the RAF Sea King Force and would wonder why anyone would suggest sending them abroad.
May we suggest rounding up all the ex-servicemen who have nothing better to do than slag off a 24-7 operational service, give them an unsuitable aircraft and no training and send them off to help out in Afghanistan - it's bound to save the taxpayer a few quid.

Love and kisses

PS try getting rid of Typhoon and Flynx and buy some more chinooks instead, it's not rocket science.

Crabette

14th Jul 2006, 07:21

“May we suggest rounding up all the ex-servicemen who have nothing better to do than slag off a 24-7 operational service, give them an unsuitable aircraft and no training and send them off to help out in Afghanistan - it's bound to save the taxpayer a few quid”.:D

Come on Flt Lt X RAF Chivenor :ugh: ,you contradict yourself 24-7 operational service?? How can it be when it is always falling over with unserviceable cabs. The Aircraft is capable enough to do the job, not ideal but the help would be welcome I’m sure by the troops and stretched SH. Perhaps civilian maintenance would help? Why perchance should you ‘un-train’ all the ex-servicemen (who probably taught you how to do the job anyway) and send them? You are the current ‘master’ of the trade and it seems only RAF NVG crews are able to do the job…so front up and put yourself up for the task. I believe the plan to ‘privatise’ the SAR UK is the way we will save the taxpayer a lot of money, removing the overburden of the current military service. At least the typhoon and Flynx crews will leave the country and do what is asked of them. Clutching at survival, the RAF SAR element seems determined to put ‘lives’ at risk by ‘controlling’ current missions with a RAF SAR bias…..sending every yellow cab it can to an incident once ‘serviceable’ (the recent glider in Scotland??? I’m surprised the valley cab wasn’t up there on a training mission!). A serviceable MCA aircraft or RN cab perhaps would have been prudent??…. But with the media coup all important this will be the state of play until RCC really do allocate tasking on the best unit able respond and not the best for the RAF! :=

teeteringhead

14th Jul 2006, 07:45

I think the trick was missed years ago - probably as an earlier cost-saving measure. Being an old bugger, when Teeters joined there was deployed SAR. OK, we weren't an expeditionary air force per se, but many (relatively) fast and pointed things were stationed or regularly visited overseas locations.

Hence SAR flights or squadrons in the late 60s/early 70s in Hong Kong, Singapore, Aden, Sharjah, Bahrain, Cyprus, Libya (yes, really!), British Honduras etc. In short, where there were RAF fast jets, there were RAF SAR helis.

And we mustn't confuse Combat SAR (which is really an SF role) with Deployable SAR. Professional SAR on the spot is what the FJ jocks deserve. (Yes I know "all SH crews get SAR training" but it's not the same - and I speak as an SH bloke meself). To be bold, might it have made a difference to the ditched Lynx in Bos a few years back??

Should it happen? Very much yes.

Will it happen? Almost certainly not. :(

OverTq

14th Jul 2006, 08:19

I don't think the UK SAR force will ever get rid of it's pipe and carpet slippers image (whether right or wrong).

South Bound

14th Jul 2006, 08:32

Either give the SAR force a capable aircraft and use it on operations in its war role or civilianise it now. If it has a role use it, if the equipment is sub-standard replace it (and declare the war-role non-effective in the meantime), if neither of those apply give it to the civvies.

Compressorstall

14th Jul 2006, 08:39

Crabette and Crab will you two just hug? RAF SAR would benefit massively if they were to be able to deploy and provide JPR coverage in some of the dusty places we work now. It was mooted to send the SARF to Bosnia in the late 90s, but nothing came of it. It has been much talked about and probably the pipe and slippers image has done the SARF no good, but then again apparently some people like to have a predictable life flying some demanding missions without having to go away from their families regularly.

Teeters - CSAR does have an SF flavour, but it isn't really an SF mission, but SF are part of the Personnel Recovery mission spectrum.

Spurlash2

14th Jul 2006, 19:58

NRDK
What really, really, pi))es me off, is the lack of knowledge when posting a bite/banter/bite/thingy/stuff/whatever/pratt type stuff. You so clearly do not have a clue about how the military operates, probably because you are a *** (fill in your "job", here) and spend all your time swanning about at car washes.
Failed at school/SAR/Junglie/ASW/ATC/scroat, did you?

Catch up.;)

[email protected]

15th Jul 2006, 09:40

Southbound - the SeaKing is a very capable SAR helicopter (although a bit more top end would be nice) and we have Chinooks and Merlins for the bullet dodging SH stuff. What on earth would be the point of giving us an SH capable aircraft, increasing the numbers of SAR crews and then deploying us when you could just buy more chinooks or merlins. I know there are many who think SAR is a skiving rest tour but most of those don't have a clue about what is actually required in the job.

As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.

Wiretensioner

15th Jul 2006, 15:33

Crab said:

As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.

If I was a winchman I wouldn't be interested either, the Falklands was bad enough!

Forward 40, Winching out, Steady

SASless

15th Jul 2006, 15:43

Nice of Crab and company to offer the guys in the back of the bus....

Why does it sound like a union dispute over "my work"...."your work" here?

SAR is not CSAR and the Camo bunch can dodge bullets but the yellow canned SAR is above that?

Is it some objection to having to get rid of the "yellow" before going Camo?

PTC REMF

15th Jul 2006, 18:50

How long would it take to fit a modern defensive aids suite, armour, crew served weapons etc, on our bright yellow sea kings

The Helpful Stacker

15th Jul 2006, 18:54

How long would it take to fit a modern defensive aids suite, armour, crew served weapons etc, on our bright yellow sea kings

Wouldn't painting over the bright yellow paint be the first concern?

NRDK

15th Jul 2006, 19:02

:D Spurlash2

For a 2& a Half pinger doing a bit of SAR on 771/819 maybe, couldn't make the jump to the civilian world....you aren't too bitter and twisted.:{
You didn't leave the dark blue for the light blue did you?????

Gather that I am not the only person who thinks the military should really 'use or lose the Yellow cab'. Ok I'm not advocating scrapping it off hand, just suggesting they get used to support the current stretched frontline forces outside the UK. Their integration and blending into a harmonised UK force will be the point where they finally learn that they are not the SAR gods doing what no others can:ok: .

SASless

15th Jul 2006, 19:13

Leave them Yellow, unarmed, and mark them with Big Red Crosses on a white background....Geneva Convention makes them non-combatants right!

We are now affording the same rights to Terrorists...thus they should recipocate then I suppose.

Heck, let the SAR boys in Yellow do an EMS business for both sides....let them be completely neutral in the matter. First come...first served sort of thing.:ugh:

thunderbird7

15th Jul 2006, 20:46

double-earmarked capability

Is that one that Tony Bliar invented?

Keep up the good work SAR, there's a few of us who appreciate you!

SAR Bloke

15th Jul 2006, 22:08

What a load of hoop!!

For those of you talking with no real knowledge of SAR (which sounds like a lot of you) the boys and girls in the overseas operational theatres are not the only one's working their arses off. Exactly how many spare Sea Kings do you think there are available to deploy? How many spare crews do you think there are? If you actually know how many spare airframes, crews and engineers there are in UK Mil SAR you would no there is almost no spare capacity.

The SAR Force specifically posts personnel to the SH force to enhance their operations with SAR knowledge and those crews are much better placed to conduct those sorts of operations. It is not a case of us thinking we are better than them and letting them get shot at, in fact (it pains me to say it) the simple fact is that they are better at that sort of mission than we are.

In any case, UK Military SAR is part of a system legally obliged by international law to provide cover for the UK. We can't just up sticks and leave even if we wanted to. For those doubters amongst you, we are also struggling with manpower due to the fact that a significant number of our personnel are in, pretty much, all the hot spots that rotary assets are deployed worldwide. Battle dodgers we are no more (if ever we were). Our aircraft may not be deployed but our personnel certainly are.

Spurlash2

15th Jul 2006, 22:43

NRDK

The yellow cabs, along with 771, 819 and Bristows SAR, support the UK.
There is all sorts sorts of s*** that happens in the UK that UK SAR assets deal with. You cannot deploy UK SAR to do a warfighting role. Just how would a SAR SK "support the current stretched frontline forces outside the UK."?

Your suggested airframes are struggling in their current role sandy side.

The JPR tasking for UK SAR in a deployed location, which is your suggestion, (you do know what JPR is, do you?) is a quantum leap and is not easily achieved without a substantial refit of an airframe with DAS, and armament, and space for a group of blokes with guns.

Denigrating UK SAR, of any colour, does you no favours.

Oh, and by the way, be careful swimming off Dollar Cove during the summer, you may well need a UK SAR helicopter.

SARBLOKE, I'm with you:ok:

Tombstone

16th Jul 2006, 06:34

Battle dodgers we are no more (if ever we were). Our aircraft may not be deployed but our personnel certainly are.

Hmm,

I'm feeling slightly quilty now as the first person to bite at NRDK's post. My concern was based on the suggestion of deploying the Seaking to AF or Iraq, where is believe it would operate poorly (especially hot & high in AF). This was never aimed as a slur on the SAR crews, far from it, you provide a first class job & fly in weather conditions far outside my comfort zone.

In the FJ community, we all have mates who have been pulled out of the oggin or plucked from the side of a hill after opting for the Martin Baker experience & without you, many of them would be no longer with us so thank you. :D :D :D

Jeep

16th Jul 2006, 08:18

The shiny new merlin (50 hours on the clock) that the danish had on static at RIAT yesterday looks the biz for CSAR. Flir SAFIRE II optics, laser wire detector (plus cutters) + ground avoidance, all the correct bulges and patched for ASE/DAS (for their troop carrying role), wireless intercomm for winch ops, a loudspeaker system, SAT comms and mobile phone antenna etc etc. Get rid of the lime green patches and it is on the right track. Not sure if the radar on the nose has full terrain following capability or just sea modes. Anyone know?

The power of the search engine.

The Danish EH101s are fitted with the Telephonics RDR-1600 search and weather avoidance radar, which includes five operation modes. With a 60-degree scan angle and 28-degree per second scan rate, the radar can detect beacons and surface targets, perform ground mapping, observe weather and give weather alerts. For precision landings--say, on an offshore oil platform--the radar contains a narrow-pulse mode, allowing a minimum detection range of 450 feet (137 meters). The radar display is presented on any of the IDUs, where the FMS navigation waypoints can be overlaid.

The RDAF thermal imaging systems have a dual-control capability. The operator of the console in the starboard rear compartment can monitor various sensor displays, including one for the FLIR. However, the FLIR master switch is in the cockpit's center console, allowing the flight crew to take over the sensor's control if necessary or beneficial. "Often the pilots have a better peripheral view and can better steer the [FLIR] turret to the target. After directing the system [using a `coolie-hat'-shaped knob], they can hand over control to the operator in back," explains Van der Spuy, describing one purpose for the dual control. The Star SAFIRE II's range can vary, depending on conditions. However, under ideal conditions [relatively calm seas], it should help spot a person's warm body bobbing in cold water at about 8,200 feet (2,500 meters).

Beermonkey

16th Jul 2006, 11:07

It's all well & good talking about shiney helicopters and FLIR/TFR etc, but unless you've got f:mad:ing big guns sticking out of every door (Seaking, I think not) it doesn't really matter! :p

Jeep

16th Jul 2006, 12:17

BM,

It is easy enough to strap a 50 cal onto the helo for a bit of close close self protection. The Merlin has plenty of payload for weaponry and medical. The real trick is to have the assets to cover the CSAR. It should never be a single aircraft that goes to the rescue.

akula

16th Jul 2006, 13:18

PTC REMF How long would it take to fit a modern defensive aids suite, armour, crew served weapons etc, on our bright yellow sea kings

Around 4 years:E :E

WE Branch Fanatic

16th Jul 2006, 13:24

Bit off topic I know, but has the RAF ever considered having personnel like the USAF Pararescue Jumpers? Less extreme perhaps but maybe a cross between Loadmaster and Rockape?

[email protected]

16th Jul 2006, 14:34

Akula - you have obviously dealt with the Sea King IPT before, although 4 years might be a bit optimistic!

WEBF - the Canadians use SARtechs who are parachute/diving/mountaineering trained but, given the terrain in the UK, such disciplines are not really required. A SAR helicopter is simply a delivery system for a paramedic trained winchman and a recovery system for same plus casualty. Even the RN have stopped using rescue divers because so few jobs require them. Having said that, the US CG are still using rescue swimmers but I don't see the point of putting a guy in the water to swim to the boat when you can just winch him to it.

Jeep - we can't afford any new or shiny things since the MoD blew all the rotary budget (and then some) on your Apaches. We are broke which is why the next generation of SAR helos will have to be financed by the private sector, regardless of who flys them. Anyway I don't think anyone will be rushing to buy Merlin until the cause of the Canadian crash is determined.

Sasless, it is not that long since our RAF SAR SKs were grey and had a theoretical tactical role (mostly for FI) and the Mk3As were procured with a similar role in mind but the harsh fact is that the fleet isn't big enough to provide UKSAR and the FI and have anything left to do anything else with. You can either have a specialised SAR machine to rescue people in all weathers or you can have a specialised SH machine to recover downed personnel in a war zone - the kit and the training required is different and to have both on one aircraft is costly and inefficient.

NRDK why don't you mention using or losing the grey and orange cabs of RNSAR, picking on the yellow ones seems a little one sided - if one part of MilSAR goes it will all go IMHO so think carefully if you are prepared to hand over 771 and gannet to MCA.

Crabette - it's still 24/7 despite the unserviceabilities the stats show an overall 97% availability for 1st standby.

snowball1

16th Jul 2006, 16:07

Bit off topic I know, but has the RAF ever considered having personnel like the USAF Pararescue Jumpers? Less extreme perhaps but maybe a cross between Loadmaster and Rockape?

There was talk about 10 years ago of replacing the mountain rescue teams with regiment guys in a csar role, but each team now has a resident regiment guy instead

No Vote Joe

17th Jul 2006, 08:23

What I believe to have been started as a bit of tongue in cheek, seems to have become rather an Open Season on the SAR Boys (and Girls). Surely this is not warrented.

UK SAR is struggling with the Queenie and shortage of crews, true, but it seems to be implied in some posts that the SAR Guys have any sort of say in what they do and where they do it. Even if they did have a platform suitably equiped, and in sufficient numbers to allow them to operate "Sandy Side", its the Ivory Tower Brigade that won't deploy them. They are not willing to accept the political fall out of not having the resources to pick up battered, bruised and beaten up bodies from the bottom of cliffs or the top of mountains. The press would have a field day.

As for the "Pipe and Slippers" image, surely you pays yer money and takes yer choice. If you don't want to spend long periods of time away with sand between your toes, then volunteer for SAR duties. If it's not your bag, fine, but don't knock those who have chosen a yellow hat over a green one. I appreciate that not every one who wants to do it can, be it because of manning or aptitude, but there seems to be a steady stream of young SH mates crossing over at the mo. I seem to remember (many years ago!) sat in the crewroom at RAF Long Sutton, that those who knocked SAR were those who had tried and failed, or those who had been indoctrinated by them.

Come on, lets live and let live. Surely we all bat for the same side. We all do our bit, some furthur away than others, but you may feel differently about the Yellow Hatters if it were your wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/son/daughter etc who gets picked up and helped out by them.

SAR Boy Anchor

17th Jul 2006, 13:19

I didn't think we did all have to bat for the same side anymore?!?!?!:O :O :O

arthurwellington

17th Jul 2006, 14:30

Lots of misuse of terminolgy throughout this thread. If you can't sleep at night, JWP3.66 will iron out any misunderstanding. In summary UK SAR, Deployed SAR, CR and CSAR are all sub-sets of JPR.

The capability required for a particular Op should be determined during planning at the Joint level and articulated in a Personnel Recovery CONOPs that is specific to the theatre in question. The answer is rarely the same for each JOA.

SAREMF.

Be careful of basing your assumptions on the theatre in which you worked in the JRCC. There is still a requirement to be able to conduct the full spectrum of JPR missions. Whether that requirement is fully endorsed and funded is unfortunately a different issue.

NRDK

I didn't reply originally, as like many I thought it was a pure wind up. Now I am not so sure.

Regards Arthur

The Helpful Stacker

17th Jul 2006, 14:32

I didn't think we did all have to bat for the same side anymore?!?!?!:O :O :O

Nah, the Navy lads bat for the side that give their SAR boys medals.

SAR Boy Anchor

17th Jul 2006, 15:55

Nah, the Navy lads bat for the side that give their SAR boys medals.

Oh the endless possibilities for bad taste inuenndo....:oh: :oh: :oh:

SARREMF

18th Jul 2006, 23:26

Originally posted by Rude Kid
SARREMF
Sorry to reply to your patronising post but I must enlighten you, you are talking b*&**ks. If you feel the need to hint at a level of super secret specialist knowledge at least get it right.
If you knew anything about Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, you would know this.

Oh dear oh dear. I wasn't hinting at a super secret level. Just that we shouldn't discuss things like this on an open forum. As to your second part, we will agree to differ - but been there done that, not sure you have though? You appear a tad sensitive over this matter? That's not supposed to be patronising by the way!

More importantly, how do you get other peoples quotes to stand out in blue?

Archimedes

19th Jul 2006, 00:07

More importantly, how do you get other peoples quotes to stand out in blue?

Either click on the 'quote' icon in the bottom right corner of the message you want to quote

Or, if you want a small section: Cut section you want from the message.

Go to reply pane.

Click on the little speech bubble (the last icon in the line immediately above the reply pane) and you'll get [ quote] [/QUOTE] appear [in upper case]

Paste section of post you're quoting between these two 'quote' brackets, ensuring that all the text you wish to quote is enclosed within those 'tags'. You should achieve the desired effect. And if neither of those is working, I'm stumped...