Qantas and Forstaff circumvent immigaration laws?

[U.K. SUBS.]

Dear ppruners
What is the legal requirement for a labour hire company (i.e. Forstaff) that can bring in overseas workers to its (Qf's) facility at avv? The rumour here is that about 300 workers are waiting to be employed here but have run into a spot of bother with the dept of immigration.....something to do with training requirements,apprenticeships etc. At present we're struggling with the poor manpower levels with 3 'c' checks that will be running soon, all leave is cancelled until the end of sept and those on leave got a phone call to come back ( the 'd' check is 2 weeks late). Also heard a really bad rumour that qf apprentices moved to avv will be offered a position at forstaff and not qf at the end of their indenture........sad isn't it.

[Apophis]

I have seen this at Avalon where people who barely have any grasp of spoken English let alone being able to read it.
One has to wonder how they can understand a job card or M.M or sign for work undertaken with instructions that are only in English then we have so called trainees that a just about given there trade papers after doing a test that they are given the answers to this is not really the fault of these guys on the floor but the policies and practices of Qantas and Forstaff.:eek:
By the way i would not wait for CASA to catch up with them Qantas always knows well before any CASA people turn up on site.

[U.K. SUBS.]

I think we know full well about the shortcomings down here but to keep the thread on track, the issue of the legislation that was amended in canberra, is it possible to get engineers from overseas given the current crisis?. On a similar note is aussie aviation going to become a regular host of guest workers?......i wonder what the travelling public would think about that?

[Apophis]

The travelling public don,t care or want to know sorry but it,s true.

[ennui]

Engineers I feel for you, it's happening to the drivers too, Jetconnect NZ supplying crews for the "AUSTRALIAN" (yeah right, thanks QF) Air Express 737contract.

Thanks Jhonnie, you lost my vote, again!!

[haughtney1]

Engineers I feel for you, it's happening to the drivers too, Jetconnect NZ supplying crews for the "AUSTRALIAN" (yeah right, thanks QF) Air Express 737contract.

Thanks Jhonnie, you lost my vote, again!!

Ennui

How many Aussies work for JetConnect NZ again????

[ennui]

Not the point buddy,

The Aussies working for a NZ company for reduced terms and conditions do so by their own decision and for their own benefit.

My point is that they secured the contract on reduced terms and conditions therefore undercutting people that elected to remain at home.

Just another example of the continuing degredation of the Aviation profession in Australia.

Good luck to those coming home, I hope for you that it was worth your soul.

Enjoy educating your children in the **** hole of the local government school in the outer suburb while you will sacrifice any chance of a comfortable lifestyle in order to make your mortgage payments!

[haughtney1]

Ummm yeah it is the point, if they didnt like it, they could have stayed home..simple.
As for undercutting people, thats an issue for your union. Sure you can throw your toys about, because ultimately if the deal wasnt attractive people wouldnt take it.
As for me, I havent sold my soul, I took the view that I was under valued in NZ and Oz, hence why Im not there.
Now last time I checked..there were more Ozzies at Jet Q than Kiwi's, so in the same way why didnt they all stay at home and stop "stealing" our jobs? condeming dozens of otherwise qualified kiwi pilots to as you succinctly put it.." educating your children in the **** hole of the local government school in the outer suburb while you will sacrifice any chance of a comfortable lifestyle in order to make your mortgage payments!"

Perhaps its worth looking beyond the end of your own nose..before you decide to condem all and sundry:=

[ennui]

"End of my nose"?

Apologies if you think that I am condemning "All and sundry". Far from it. It was just a point (and a lot of my previous posts have touched upon the same subject) that we as a group are our worst enemies and are playing into our employers hands.

As for myself, mate I've just voted with my feet. No options here with the bottom feeders, don't want to join em, can't beat em, I've gone.

Last one out with their integrity intact can shut the door.

Geographically isolated with chips on shoulders, tall poppy syndrome, backstabbing, undercutting, downsizing, keeping the investors happy, lining the pockets of management, UNDERCUTTING your professional peers to get ahead.

This is not why I began to fly. I do It because a love the job. I began to aviate (pardon my naivity) because I thought that people involved in the profession were like minded ie: loyal, dedicated and focused on a common goal of providing a specialised, safety conscious service with commensurate renumeration. It was once, but is not now.

I will come home one day, but I'll do it in retirement, with my integrity intact.

I'll not take a fellow pilots position as a DEC. I'll not come home by undercutting a pay structure and prostituting myself for a CEO's bonus.

Maybe, perhaps, everyone else is correct, and I'm the odd one out. I hope not. Not only for me, but primarily for the the new one's who start with a dream, and have the courage to follow their convictions and be able to achieve their ambitions for a reward worthy of the required sacrifice.

Good luck all.

As you sow, so shall you reap!

The mill of god grinds slow,,,,,,,,,,,but fine!

[haughtney1]

Sorry Ennui...I get a bit passionate about this stuff. Like you I voted with my feet:uhoh:

You are spot on in your comments about the place...even to the point of scarily so!

Apologies again if I caused offense:ok:

[ennui]

No probs mate,

Do I see you in the ME?

[RELEASED]

i know where they can get some qualified engineers,Sydney H.M there are still some of as left up here waiting for positions in this mighty company

[Turbo 5B]

There is also a disused fully decked out 747 hangar there as well, not to mention ndt facilities, recently overhauled s/m and f/g workshops and close proximity to tech services support.

[BHMvictim]

By the way i would not wait for CASA to catch up with them Qantas always knows well before any CASA people turn up on site.

CASA could well be lapdogs to Qantas.

Maybe this requires some investigation by the unions followed by a public awareness campaign?

[BHMvictim]

is it possible to get engineers from overseas given the current crisis?.

As with most industries that have a manpower shortage "crisis", you have to look at what the "crisis" really is.

This is a "crisis" to Qantas/Forstaff. The shortage isn't really the availability of engineers. The shortage is the availability of engineers willing to work under the pay and conditions that the likes of Qantas/Forstaff imposes.

Pay well, treat the employees well and you will not have a shortage.

[U.K. SUBS.]

bhm....very true in regard to what these companies term 'crisis'. If you take it in context with pilots, cabin crew and those essential to the 'legal obligations to flight safety'.....i'm still thinking about where the govt stand in regard to the dimunation of these jobs. Yes, the dear leader has embraced aspects of workchoices i.e. lower pay,conditions etc but how far will it go until we see the net result?
cabin crew falling asleep due to fatigue at the most critical phase of the flight,
engineers not being able to comprehend english whilst performing complex tasks from information in manuals,
there is plenty of anecdotal evidence which was posted on here about casa and qf re. line maintanance sign offs. and cross reports.
so you see ladies and gentlemen while we do recognise that all is not well where does that leave us here at avv when theoretically we could have possibly hundreds more ames letting loose on a rpt a/c whose skills could be questionable. Again the dept of immigration figures in this quandry....let them in or train your own.

[inthefluffystuff]

Embargo on leave being instigated at Avalon is this legal? sounds like a knee jerk reaction by some idiot in charge and is a bit of a panic merchant?
What if you had a holiday planned and paid for would they still tell you that you cannot go? or is the place staffed by a more competent manager that can overrule this ?

[U.K. SUBS.]

Inthefluffy......it did happen. All planned annual leave is cancelled and revoked until the end of september. Phone calls went out to people to come back to work. There is not enough manpower to carry out the planned checks. Now wether this is legal or not i just don't know ( maybe someone can enlighten me). Are there new laws under workchoices that we don't yet know?

[sonhouse]

I don't think Aviation in Australia is isolated when it comes to guest worker inexperience.
It is well known by those that have worked in "Sing" as (Guiest Workers) contractors that many subbies from Europe on good UK money have been found wanting when it comes to skills and knowlege of A/C systems practices and proceedures.
Europe must also suffer this malaise because thats where they are bred.
Australia is going to suffer good skill/knowlege building in apprentices due to the loss of Syd Heavy and Ansett but the able core will keep it functioning as it has in Europe.
The greatest downside is the system is becoming more fragile as the experienced core retire, but the Aircraft Manufactures state the machine is more tolerant and that is the selling point to operators and the flying public.
Technology supercedes people?

[U.K. SUBS.]

Interesting thought with apprentices sonhouse. We in Australia need to start training not only now but should have years ago as even casa know the age of the average lame is increasing but what is happening at present?......even for an ame like myself i do not believe that the resources to maintain the australian fleet are being invested in contrary to some airlines claims. It does look as if the policy is to go overseas......not much of a future for me and my workmates but i'm workchoices will look after me. THANKS JOHN

[Apophis]

Inthefluffy......it did happen. All planned annual leave is cancelled and revoked until the end of september. Phone calls went out to people to come back to work. There is not enough manpower to carry out the planned checks. Now wether this is legal or not i just don't know ( maybe someone can enlighten me). Are there new laws under workchoices that we don't yet know?
I cannot see anywhere in the current agreement that allows forstaff to do this the ALAEA and AWU and staff need to kick up over this NOW!and not just sit back and take this crap.
Workchoices does not really come into it you have a new agreement in place.
http://www.forstaffaviation.com/EBA/

[soldier of fortune]

what are u guy's worrying about-there won't be any oil in 5 years- there won't b an avaition industry-i think the guy's in h245 who got there pay out's will be the one's with the biggest grin's:eek:

[Turbo 5B]

Well we should be gearing up to do the LPG conversions then:}

[domo]

remour sydney base maintenance to close in january,everyone gone cost 250 million. job offer labour hire company fixed term contract
"the living will envy the dead"

[U.K. SUBS.]

Domo....it goes back to the start of the thread. All those skills lost if they do shut down bay servicing...not too many will take up the offer of a fixed term contract. How will Forstaff make up the numbers required?...will the dept of immigration allow overseas workers in?.....all the evidence seems to suggest that they will. Workchoices!!!! dont you just love it?. So what do we do?. For a start contact your local mhr.......i know i will.

[Bolty McBolt]

1/
I have read this thread at length and I can't condone trashing the south africans on their work abilities. I cannot speak for the guys whom worked in H245 but the guys in base were all well trained and very capable. I never had a problem with any work carried out by the SA guys or their ability to use the correct technical matter.
If you want to trash South Africans lets stick to the subject of rugby or speaking with stupid accent !!!

2/
I don't think forstaff have to contravene any immigration laws to hire people from abroad.
To gain an Aussie work permit/visa (what ever its called) you need to make up the total of 200 points. If you have a skill that is in shortage it gets you more points. EG if you have a trade and you are bringing assets with you, have a job lined up or are being sponsored and you can prove all your qualifications are bone-fide you have your 200 points and get the stamp in your passport allowing you to work.

I know of a South African whom had a job lined up in the computer industry as he was some kind of specialist in a large main frame application.
When he applied for a work permit he was told he had insufficient points as we have an over supply of computer geeks in Oz already therefore no shortage and a small allocation of points for his skill.
He was then asked if he had any other skills to build his "points" , to which he replied that he was a plumber with all his tickets as he had completed his apprenticeship/traineeship first job after leaving school.
This got him his 200 points and his work permit. He worked for 6 months as a plumber while searching for a job in his computer field and now does that under same permit.

[U.K. SUBS.]

Bolty......your 100% right about the points system......i went through it a long time ago through self nomination. The issue is for employers who want to bring groups of skilled professonals to oz.This is the point i'm making, qf is hell bent on offloading its engineering capability as no-one doubts here on pprune but in this process they have found themselves seriously undermanned with the fleet maint. requirements. So they go overseas through forstaff to replace the lost skill base and employ them under lesser conditions........vee won kutt has the same topic on another thread with shipping......qf and forstaff are using workchoices by proxy.....the dept of immigration has criteria about companies brining in skilled workers i had a look at the website and it's there in black and white. It just remains to be seen how it will be used against qf workers in bay serviceing......