Views on air taxi business

[giftofwings]

I'm new to everything in aviation, but I've had a look around and this seems the best forum for this topic. I'd like to explore the possibility of starting an air-taxi business in europe and would like to have opinions as to how practical and profitable that may be. I have capital, enthusiasm, and time; but little knowledge of aviation.

What do you think? Can one find a market with one or two aircraft? Is it possible to compete with NetJet. Is there money to be made? Where to operate? Interested in co-operating?

[Looooong haul]

I'm new to everything in aviation, but I've had a look around and this seems the best forum for this topic. I'd like to explore the possibility of starting an air-taxi business in europe and would like to have opinions as to how practical and profitable that may be. I have capital, enthusiasm, and time; but little knowledge of aviation.

What do you think? Can one find a market with one or two aircraft? Is it possible to compete with NetJet. Is there money to be made? Where to operate? Interested in co-operating?

Lets start with your first question: is it profitable? N. Why not? Because every few months somebody who made money in an other business buys an aircraft and starts operating. They find out that they do not get the business as the brokers take him for a ride and start lowering the price... The brokers still say the price is too high so another price reduction.. It is getting critical now and the company is happy to accept any rate that will pay for the DOC's of the operation... the cost of depreciating the aircraft is forgotten for a few months (he hopes) The person who started or funded the company is now getting p!ssed off as in his previous life he was making money and now he is loosing it big time... After a frusterating two 2 years he is getting out, another aircraft back on the market and a few unemployed pilots....

Just down the road there is a guy who can buy a cheap aircraft, knows a few unemplyed pilots and he has a great idea.... :hmm:

[p_ace]

People have made money starting small airlines or operations which have grown large but the success stories are far from huge.

Regarding such an operation with business jets there could be an opening with the new generation VLJs like the Eclipse, Mustang or Adams 700 where you could compete with the Business class airline costs but with the flexibility of a private jet.

Whatever you would be looking at investing a huge sum with a high risk

p_ace

[Phil Brockwell]

Looong haul,

Your comments are so accurate......and a bit depressing!

Why didn't I become a lawyer like my mother told me to do?:{

Phil

[Phil Brockwell]

P_ace

I'm still not fully convinced that the VLJ's are going to have as big an impact on the European public Transport market as the PR guru's would have us believe.

The eclipse and mustang seem very limited with regards to range and capacity. I'm not fully convinced that Eclipse can maintain production to the levels needed to keep the price down significantly enough below the Mustang to make it's inherent risk attractive enough.

My personal opinion is that the success story of the VLJ phenomena will be the Phenom 100.

It will be very interesting to see what the aircraft will do payload and range wise in a 2 crew EASA public transport situation......a lot less than the publicised range and pax I suspect.

Phil

[Looooong haul]

P ace... so you have a cheap aircraft but all the other costs are near the same like crew landing and handling etc..... what is the advantage? As PB points out fly it commercial and performance is non excisting...

Phil: agree that the 1000 looks promising

[p_ace]

P_ace

I'm still not fully convinced that the VLJ's are going to have as big an impact on the European public Transport market as the PR guru's would have us believe.

The eclipse and mustang seem very limited with regards to range and capacity. I'm not fully convinced that Eclipse can maintain production to the levels needed to keep the price down significantly enough below the Mustang to make it's inherent risk attractive enough.

My personal opinion is that the success story of the VLJ phenomena will be the Phenom 100.

It will be very interesting to see what the aircraft will do payload and range wise in a 2 crew EASA public transport situation......a lot less than the publicised range and pax I suspect.

Phil

The Eclipse especially should work out at around $1.7 million with a 41000 ceiling good range, 360 kts and half the fuel burn of a Citation 500/550
Most US businessmen flying into Europe tend to visit in numbers of 1,2 or 3 making the hiring of larger Citations to cover European destinations as not a cost effective exercise.

The Eclipse shouldnt cost more to run than a larger piston twin.

P_ace

[Phil Brockwell]

P_ace,

How far could you fly with 3 pax, 2 crew and reserves on a public transport flight on an Eclipse?

Phil

[Leo45]

Well, not even Nice or Cannes from Bristol...:eek:

[Phil Brockwell]

So you are limited to Guernsey, IOM, Paris, Dublin. All typical day return routes where the aircraft makes a 40 minute flight and 6 hour wait followed by another 40 minute flight.

You will be lucky to get 350 hours per year. A used CJ costs $2.3m USD, and should get significantly higher utilisaton whilst offering a larger cabin and is proven to have reliable systems, braking etc etc.

IMHO the VLJ's are a personal aircraft. If you want to make money out of them, manage them and supply crew to stop the buggers killing themselves.

Phil

[Looooong haul]

Nice sample routes in Flight this week of the Eclipse vs the TBM850....

[p_ace]

Here are the performance spec of the Eclipse which are pretty impressive if the production models hit these numbers?? The Flight int comparison never mentioned the VLJ they were comparing against only a VLJ.



Takeoff Distance to 50 ft (@ MGTOW)
Sea Level, ISA to 50 ft (15 m) @ MGTOW2,248 ft685 mLanding Distance (@4,600 lb landing weight)
Sea Level, ISA @ 4,600 lb (2,087 kg) landing weight2,112 ft644 m
Rate of Climb – 2 engines3,314 ft / min 1,010 m / min
Rate of Climb – 1 engine708 ft / min
216 m / min
Time to Climb – 35,000 ft (10,688 m)19 min
19 minTakeoff at 5,000 ft (1,524 m)
At ISA + 15°C3,464 ft1,056 mSingle Engine Takeoff Climb at 5,000 ft (1,524 m)
At ISA + 15°C289 ft / min
88 m / min
Single Engine Service Ceiling25,000 ft
7,620 m
Cruise Speed
370 kt
685 km / hr
Vso
69 kt
124 km / hr
Vmo / Mmo
285 kt / 0.64 Mach
528 km / hr / 0.64 Mach
Maximum Altitude
41,000 ft
12,497 m
Range, 4 occupants
NBAA IFR, 100 nm alternate, 200lb (90 kg) pilot , three 170 lb (77 kg) passengers1,125 nm
2,084 km
Range, 4 occupants
IFR 45-minute reserve1,300 nm2,408 km

[Phil Brockwell]

So it's a 2 passenger aircraft at that range, at 4 pax how far will it go.



Phil

[Looooong haul]

P Ace if you are serious about this go to Farnborough and speak to Embraer, the 1000 is what you want (it has a toilet as well!!)

[giftofwings]

So I can't make any money then! What about if I was to go to flight training school full time and learn to fly them myself, so that I didn't have to hire a pilot? Is that practical, or would I have to have 15 million hours of pilot in command time to be permitted to do the flying myself? Or is it 1500? I guess I wouldn't need to be too choosy when interviewing myself, so I just need to worry about compliance.