QF & the word HEAVY!!!

[capt kickback]

Lately on the airwaves QF international (76s/A330s and above) have been using the word "HEAVY" on initial contact with tower/centre or approach!!......is this just a QF thing or is it a ATC requirement now in Australia that you use the word heavy for large A/C??........the only country where this was the norm was the ol US of A!!.......any answers??:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

It has become a requirement...believe me I want to gag everytime:{

It is NOT just QF...I have to say it when in Oz airspace in a 767 too...next thing you know they'll want us to say it everybloodywhere!!!:ugh:

[pakeha-boy]

....is that the same thing when describing the "HEAVY" THRASHING we gave the wallabies on sat????:} :D

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yep, it's now a bloody requirement. But having discussed it with an Approach ATC mate over a beer, he agrees it's complete crap. They know from the flight-plan/strip/computer screen who's heavy and who isn't. So if you "forget" to say it then the sky isn't going to fall....

Seriously, we really are losing the plot somewhere in Aus.

[haughtney1]

The continued americanisation of Oz

We dont use heavy in the EU.....mind you when you say gidday..the Germans think your nuts:}

[Turbo 5B]

Qantas just wants you to use the word "Heavy" as a reminder to the pilots that once they've finished putting the cleaners through Heavy Maintenance they're coming after them!

[Bleve]

Anybody bother to read the AIP these days, anyone? Try reading section ENR 1.4 Para 9.2.7:

For aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category, the word "HEAVY" shall be included immediately after the aircraft callsign in the initial radiotelephony contact between such aircraft and the aerodrome control tower or the approach control unit.
This is a new requirement that was introduced by AIR SERVICES AUSTRALIA in AIP amendment 45 dated 24 Nov 05.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yes, Bleve, that is what we have been saying: that it has become a requirement.

The vast majority of professional pilots operating in/to/from Aus are aware of it so that's why you're hearing it on the airwaves.

But as to whether the "requirement" is really "necessary" - well that's another matter. Perhaps there's an argument that it aids situational awareness of other aircraft out there that might be right behind you? Dunno - any comments?

[haughtney1]

Nope..its never helped my SA (although if it ever existed in the first place..my one brain cell would probably get lonely :} ) and it usually makes me smirk..kind of a "I say heavy cos mines bigger than yours"..pointless requirement IMHO...keeps someone in CASA in a job though I suppose..:oh:

I think this requirement harks back to the days of primary radar..with little or no flight data info..hence the "heavy" to help with separation inside the terminal area..or at least I think I remember reading that somewhere.

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

Now for something that could really help us... Will A380 drivers call themselves "Roolly Heavy"?

[Aussie]

I cant believe how Americanized we are getting. Like ATC dont know your a heavy????

Aussie

[BARON DRIVER]

Turbo 5B,
Top call mate!:D

[Noeyedear]

I'm probably wrong as usual BUT....

1. Hasn't the "Heavy" bit been in the AIP 'Phraseology' section for years? I seem to remember it in the 'taxy calls' section back when I actually used to read that stuff. I'd always wondered why so few people used it!

2. I fly an aircraft under 20 tonnes. When I have minimum separation on the aircraft in front, I want to know what type of aircraft it is that I am following. A callsign such as Qantas 123 doesn't give me this info. Qantas 123 'heavy' does. I guess you could say that enhances my SA. Wake turbulence can be pretty ugly. Yes, ATC are meant to give us prescribed separation but why not be ready to handle the unexpected?

Just my amateur thoughts.:hmm:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

I will take a contrary view (how unlike me!), and say that I think it is not such a bad thing - the problem is it is inconsistent in it's application, therefore any SA gain made for the ATC is diminished.

When it came in, last year, it was used a lot more - it seems to have drifted out of use now.

My own view is that it was a band-aid fix to the amount of wake turbulence 'encounters' that ATC were manufacturing - partly as a result of the introduction of FNC's (Flight Number Callsigns). We all used to know that -OGB, RMD, EAA etc were all heavies, and CZU, TJA, TAF etc, were mediums.

QFA1122 doesn't mean much until you look at the radar track / other track. (We dont look at strips much these days - rarely in approach). Herein lies the problem - the H and the M in the TAAATS font (especially in MAESTRO font) look almost the same - and I, fortunately, have excellent eyesight - consider the average age of an approach controller is mid to late 40's, and the vision implications of that, and you can see why it regularly gets missed. Not to the point of an 'encounter', but becomes a surprise nonetheless.

There has been an effort to change the colours of the Wake Turb indicator - unfortunately this seemed to make it worse.

Anyhow - just some background. You only have to say it on first contact - we dont think you are wankers - it's saving us haveing a short 'holiday', so my personal view is that it's not a bad thing.

[Below is a picture I discovered on the web, which indicates the Wake Turb indication - normally labels are green or blue]

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zg43rq.jpg

[Eagleman]

And in the GODs we used to bag BA for saying "THE Speedbird"!

[Roger Standby]

Well done ****su Tonka for explaining it correctly. It's a reminder to the approach guys that their usual minimum 3 miles may not be enough.

And to Eagleman, when BA say "The" speedbird, we still think they are w@nkers.

R.S.

[QFinsider]

Am I alone in struggling to understand the necessity for birdseed/nigel to refer to themselves as "fully ready" "fully established"...Did I miss something when at school (is highly likely:ok: )? I thought ready, was ready....established was established...:E

[haughtney1]

Lookin at that radar screen.....you could say hhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvy, and it wouldn't matter a bean....theres no trafiic (well 1 or 2 tracks) on it :E

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Haughtney,

Those three aircraft look like they will be in about a 4nm trail on final to me.

Would the next ones perhaps be in trail out of picture? Instead of rotting in a holding pattern somewhere?

[EDIT: Sorry Haughtney, I checked your profile. You are a pilot. I understand now why you just wouldn't get it. ]

[No Further Requirements]

I'm with ****su. QF started putting a B763 on the morning ML-CB run a few months back. It was still QFA814 and the amount of times I thought "Bugger, that's right, there goes my plan" was quite a few times (got used to it eventually....)

The main thing wasn't the wake turb problem, it was that we needed 15 (!) miles behind them clear so they had time to backtrack on the runway! Could have been nasty with 5.1NM.......

Cheers,

NFR.

Edited for plain stupidity (ML-CB not ML-SY....switch on NFR!)

[5miles]

Lookin at that radar screen.....you could say hhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvv vy, and it wouldn't matter a bean....theres no trafiic (well 1 or 2 tracks) on it
And exactly how would you be 'lookin at that radar screen' if your sittin' at the pointy end of a heavy??? :=

[Sunfish]

If Qf aircraft get to say "heavy" does it mean that I can say "light"?:}

[Taildragger67]

....is that the same thing when describing the "HEAVY" THRASHING we gave the wallabies on sat????:} :D

Sixteen men on the field vs. fourteen, mate... :} :mad: :ok:

QFInsider... possibly versus 'nearly' or 'almost'? Avoids doubt.

[pakeha-boy]

....and you blokes are worried about the word "heavy"...yet when you listen to some of the diction going on with ATC comm,you are more concerned with a term that has a use......

When taking off,following,intrail of a 757 the controlllers always warn you of wake turb,...do they need to do that??? I know what a 757 is,I have seen and read the material,have actually witnessed an accident due to 757 wake...

In-trail spacing,following a 757 is some of the best info on app you can get...your able to back it off,stay half a dot high on thr G/S(VFR conditions)..and generally paint a picture for yourself....and the same goes for the word "Heavy" I use it to paint a picture of the A/C ahead .....the amount of "noise" made of "heavy" euipment is of no real use to controllers or those flying the euipment....bloody good for those of us flying the stuff that doesnt make the weight requirement for heavy .....

just another piece of info that makes up the big picture...is it a big deal to say "heavy"...get over it ......

RS...you reckoned that "speedbird" were W@[email protected],does the same for me:D

Tail drager...stick with netball mate...in fact the whole aussie team should switch to netball....ACTUALLY....I take that back....our netballers would take your money too....stick to rugby...it great to see aussies crying in their piss!!!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

ok, as long as nobody has a chup on their shoulder.

[pakeha-boy]

:} :} :} :} :} :} :E

[Waka Rider]

PB from what I see the Aussies were actually crying and playing in our piss :E :E :E :E

[Taildragger67]

ok, as long as nobody has a chup on their shoulder.

Actually Tonk, they're a well-balanced lot - chups on both shoulders and dribbling out of both sides of their mouths...

While we're on the subject, I recall back when much of Manly league team was from across the d(i)tch, listening to a news report on the Doug Mulray show where the news guy read news of 'Maori-Warringah'...

Well I thought it was funny!!

OK, OK, hat, coat, door, etc.

[haughtney1]

Uhhh cos it was on the other page....:}


Ahhh an Ozzie in piss............just beautiful:p

Oh yeah another thing....Ive been fortunate enough to "buddy" an ATCO at West Drayton (london UK) on a couple of times. Even had a go as an approach controller on the stimulators..(was told that I would be ok at it..although to be honest I couldnt get the hang of writing on the strips as I gave out a vector!!) my point being I understand both sides of this..although I still think "heavy" is one word more than required...cloggs up the frequency a little more IMHO :)

[019360]

Sometimes going into Chicago "XXX Heavy" is the only standard piece of phraseology you hear. If those guys on approach control plus the local domestic pilots can ever learn to speak standard ICAO English (and at a word per minute speed less than about Mach 2) it will be a major achievement. No wonder our Asian brothers have some trouble there sometimes.

[Capt Basil Brush]

For you guys refering to the rugby last weekend, the Wallabies were well defeated by South Africa!! (ie the Ref and both touch judges) :{

I know, blame the ref.....................

but their performance was appalling!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Serious Thread Drift Alert

[Transition Layer]

****su-Tonka

When it came in, last year, it was used a lot more - it seems to have drifted out of use now.

I agree! When the requirement first came out, the pressure was on to remember as there was usually a round of beers riding on it if someone forgot! No-one seems to give a **** anymore though!

TL

[Keg]

More likely people have forgotten to put the round of beers on the line. :E

I think I remember about 1 in every five times! :ugh:

[pakeha-boy]

well mate...followed a quantus "heavy" into KLAX today....and they used the word "heavy"...made me feel right at ease...thanks boys:D

[tinpis]

"HEAVY" to be replaced by the word "OBESE" for the 380. :hmm:

[Peter Fanelli]

Now for something that could really help us... Will A380 drivers call themselves "Roolly Heavy"?


I was recently chastised in another forum for suggesting that the suffix for the A380 should be "BLOATED"

[Andy_RR]

the 'Heavy' bit is standard phraseology for the UK too, or at least it's mentioned more than in passing in CAP413, the CAA R/T bible.

What cracks me up is on Air Crash Investigator, they seem to use it for every transmission and even the ATC use it for their transmissions too. It does begin to sound a bit wank then - does this happen in real life emergencies, or is it the directors making it sound 'big' (or is that 'heavy')?

A

[farrari]

Well no one says FEET as required by GEN 3.4-13 4.4.2 :rolleyes:

[Transition Layer]

pakeha-boy,

well mate...followed a quantus "heavy" into KLAX today....and they used the word "heavy"...made me feel right at ease...thanks boys

Well mate, since it is a requirement in the US, what's the big deal? In the states ATC will also address you as "heavy" whereas in Oz you never hear ATC refer to anyone as "Qantas XXX heavy". As someone pointed out earlier it does sound quite wanky.

And Keg, if we ever fly together I'll make sure there's some beers riding on it :ok:

TL

[pakeha-boy]

TL..........MATE!!!.......I dont make the rules....just follow them......****e!!! blow me down blue..I forgot... in oz you make the rules...what an idiot I am:{

[Duff Man]

Is the HEAVY suffix a variation from or alignment to ICAO standard procedures?

And somebody please explain how QF446 HEAVY calling a separate frequency before you gives you any idea that you're following a hvy? You may even be following an aircraft with 60 track miles on the other side of the TMA... :confused: ... isn't situational awarenesss better suited to a description of the leading aircraft once in the circuit or on final?

[pakeha-boy]

Duff Man....if you are referring to my post thats exactly my point(reckon Ill have to get ito detail next time)...thought it was obvious but guess not.......for me its major use is for in-trail spacing....

but also at altitude....now that we have only a 1000ft vertical separation(USA) on several occassions ATC has given a crossing or opposite traffic "caution wake turbulence" call for passing "Heavy" traffic that is above...and on several occassions we have recieved a half pai bump....the calls I reckon are out of professional courtesy,as theres not really much you can do...unless it is a major upset,none that Ive heard of....Duf,your profile says your in ATC,now I,m really confused....reckon weve beat this to death:ugh:

[Duff Man]

pakeha-boy, yes I suppose I was referring to your post, and am an ATC, but I've re-read yours and correct me if I'm wrong but you're claiming that as a pilot following a heavy, that heavy's use of "HEAVY" suffix improves your situational awareness esp for intrail spacing. I disagree with that specific point. At least in AU, the "HEAVY" suffix is only used on 1st contact with APP/TWR, so if you're following QF3 over the drink then the first chance you get to know that QF3 is hvy is when he calls socal app (unless the US procedures are such that QF3 is "HEAVY" on every single r/t call with a US atc) ... and at that point in time you're listening to centre on a different freq, so how did you get to know that QF3 is hvy??? .... I'm guessing here it's coz the US procedure is quite different to AU, where they say HEAVY all the time (both pilots and atc) and in AU pilots only say it once and ATC never.

[pakeha-boy]

Duff....if you are reffering to socal app then you are correct....upon intial contact 'Heavy" is used and when ever you are following a "heavy" app control informs you of that...for what other reason than situational awareness would ATC give you that info if it were not for wake turbulence?????..... not trying to be a smart-arse here mate....but sitting in ATC and sitting in my cockpit behind a 747,any heavy or a 757 is "situational awarness....falling off your chair in the ATC buliding is not the same as being hit by "good" wake!!!

[Duff Man]

Hey Pakeha, whats with you kiwis and your QNH fetish? :p When will y'all learn to say "recieved [info]" on first contact?

[distracted cockroach]

Dude, NZ requirement is to read back QNH. If you just say "info..." to a kiwi ATCer they will tell you the QNH and ask you to read it back.
Personally, I think it's a good thing. It is too easy to write down a QNH that is 10hPa high or low, and this is another confirmation opportunity.
....for what it's worth.....

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Yes - any chance of reporting your assigned level now and then? I assume you don't call with the ATIS in NZ except to the TWR?

[haughtney1]

Callsign, A/C type, speed, cleared level, atis info and ONH....all to be conveyed to the "director" (pommy approach controller) when you check-in on approach in descent.....ya dont have to say heavy :ok:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Now thats going overboard.

Wondered why EK always tell me their aircraft type on first contact.

[haughtney1]

directorhellomonarch343aboeing767speed320toobexildescendingf l110withcharlie1013....:}

Its gets competitve....the rules are hold your breath for 30 seconds before making the call..or saying it in a foreign accent...or...doing it with the EROS mask on with the accompaning darth-vader breathing noises (actually this tactic can be employed at any stage)..or pressing transmit intermittently to try and get that authentic mobile phone call quality.

The list goes on:}

Still dont have to say "heavy"

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Frankly I would just prefer, "Monarch 343 with you" - nothing else unless you are climbing or descending, then just give me your assigned level as well.

If I want to know anything else I will ask - after all, now I will have time to ask!

Unfortunately we are going more the other way.

Even starting to hear STAR designators on first contact - good grief.

Still like 'Heavy' though.

[pakeha-boy]

...fetish...Hmmmmmmmmmmm......sheep..yeeeeees.......pigs (2- legged) ..yeeeeeees...tui piss....yeeeeeees.......QNH.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!

[Waka Rider]

****su

I guess it does not matter if there is only two or three aircraft in the TMA. With predominately english as first language pilots. In UK particularly around London, before your reply think long and hard about how many aircraft go through LHR,LGW only one runway 35 millon pax a year, STN, LTN, SOU,LCY it is simply staggering the numbers it really challenges the Eastern seaboard for density. Generally controllers do not have time to ask. Same on initial contact normally into LHR or LGW controller too busy or not enough gaps and they will call you once you fit into their SA. The heavy is a good call I have had a really good shake up into PHL behind a bloody 757 we did not hear a heavy after its call sign so did not know until being shaken what we were following. Its helpful for us sorry it requires more talking really looking forward complete CPDLC operations.

[Woomera]

This thread has drifted so far that throwing a line would be fruitless:}