Engineer Officer

[dhurst]

I know some of you will complain as i am not a pilot or what not. but i have a few questions that i would like some help on from people who have experience in this area.

I am in the process of applying for Engineer Officer in the RAF and have to do the usual thing and go to Officer Selection. so far i have learnt that potential engineers do all the same aptitude tests as pilots.

But what are the RAF looking for in people in my situation whilst they are undergoing there selection? do they look at all your aptitude results or do they look at your leadership skills? as after all i am going to be in a management/leadership posistion.

all help will be greatly apreciated. cheers guys :)

[HercErk]

The Ability to keep a whole village awake with the summer ball with no regard to other people

Big thanks to RAF LYNEHAM Officers Mess:ok: :D

[A2QFI]

Herk Erk - what is the relevance of your comment, to someone who is asking about joining as an Engineering Officer?

Why not post your unhelpful comments on the Lyneham Village website, which is full of people who complain about the 'problems' of being near Lyneham but would be up in arms if it was closed?

[L1A2 discharged]

Moving too fast to be thread creep .....

They will be upset when Lyneham has closed as an RAF unit and been taken over by the Army / Open Prison / Asylum centre / pick your own after RAF life /....:ugh:

However, back to the question. Cranwell give every candidate the tests, someone not applying for aircrew may be suitable for conversion :)

[dhurst]

Cranwell give every candidate the tests, someone not applying for aircrew may be suitable for conversion :)

cheers for that mate , but would you like to expand your answer on the " suitable for conversation " part

[12 twists per inch]

Obviously aptitude and leadership are paramount. Bear in mind you could be the BENGO on a shift on the largest Sqn in the RAF operating vintage aircraft and commanding up to 70 hairy ar$ed engineers who are probably older and many more qualified than you.

The ability to listen to your experienced seniors, even if you dont use their advice, and then make a balanced (and maybe unpopular) decision is of utter importance. However this does not help you in your interviews!

My advice from the enlisted scums perspective is: Be yourself, think of the 'team' especially their welfare and most of all dont dither ;) A positive and approachable attitude is well respected by us oily ticks.

Oh and remember the GE is always right and can easily save your ass ;)

[rock_dove]

Conversation??!:confused: Surely you meant conversion old chap!! Officer material?:hmm:

[dhurst]

Ha well spotted there rock dove. and 12 twists i am going in on the electrical and comms side instead of the aerosystems. and in terms of qualifications i have a degree in computing and electrical engineering. but like u said some engineers might be more qualified then me but at the end of the day its the 24 weeks of officer training that makes me more qualified then them.

[Roadster280]

at the end of the day its the 24 weeks of officer training that makes me more qualified then them.

Good luck in your first appointment with that attitude. You'll need it.

[Blacksheep]

Actually, he's quite right, but its best never to tell them that. ;)

Six months of officer training may convert a raw civilian into an officer, but once on the squadron, one must remember that until you're at least a Flight Lieutenant you're still under training...

[dhurst]

Blacksheep i think i can agree with you on that one. i might still be a civilian but i grew up with a military background. My father served 22 years in the British Army, my Grandfather was a pilot and my sisters husband is a pilot based at RAF Benson. And i know that dosnt really give me any experience but i kind of know how it all works.

so any more advice for my original question?

[12 twists per inch]

Agree with roadster, polish that attitude dear chap - you will go down a bundle :ugh: :=

[Dogfish]

Your 24 week course will make you an officer but you need to realise that there is more to leadership than being ''in charge''. When you get to your squadron I suggest you spend time getting to know your NCO's because they will have the experience to keep you out of the poo. Work on your people skills and remember to talk to people, not at them. :)

[Roadster280]

Here's a little story to illustrate my point.

Many moons ago, I was on ops with my Regiment in a badly civil war ravaged country. We had Ptarmigan as the main communications system. The mobile part, SCRA, has two types of equipment, the Central, and the Terminal (ie the user). In our regiment, we had "inherited" 5 or 6 of these Centrals that were badly u/s.

Now in R Signals, there were two types of techs in my day, radio and systems. The systems techs fixed Ptarmigan. Now, out in the field, the systems guys had looked at these Centrals, and failed miserably to fix them. My Regimental Foreman of Signals (equivalent to an RAF JENGO, though a WO), asked me to go look at them. Now as a Radio tech, I could have told him "Sorry sir, but I dont know the first thing about these". Which was true. Or I could have said "OK sir, can do". So I went and sat in the back of these things, and struggled with a mountain of AESPs(~APs), hand cranking diesel generators in -10 conditions. After a day or two, I got three of them working.

The next day, I happened to be on duty bod, during the Regimental management conference. Cue Regt FofS, when it came to his report. "Good news, I have three SCRA Centrals now serviceable. Without the likes of Cpl Roadster, I would be dead in the water." Now the CO knows I was a good egg. Guess what, I got an A confidential.

Wind the clock on several years. I need a favour from Manning & Records (our Innsworth). Who's the big cheese? My old CO. "No problem, Sgt Roadster".

I didn't have to help my Regt FofS, and my old CO didn't have to help me.

Some lessons in there, methinks.

[Severance]

24 weeks of officer training that makes me more qualified then them.

Then all you'll have to do is around 10 to 20 years to even hope to keep up with your 'charges'. Good luck. Incidentally, your attitude appears to be spot on for an Engineering Officer, and I look forward to watching you blossom.:ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

I guess you don't have to bother with the last 6 weeks of Officer Training because you already know the way it works then? ;)

30 weeks on IOT at Cranwell now chap.

[maxburner]

You might try learning to write in English.

[MReyn24050]

You might try learning to write in English.
Agreed, I hope the young Gentleman will brush up on his grammar, spelling, and punctuation before attending any selection board. He certainly needs to concentrate on the attention to detail and check everything before submitting his work. I am of course referring to the correct use of capitals, otherwise he will continue to give the impression of being slovenly and lazy, which, if he has gone to the trouble of studying for a degree, I am sure he is not.

[Aussie_Aviator]

"... some engineers might be more qualified then me but at the end of the day its the 24 weeks of officer training that makes me more qualified then them."

Oh ... shudder in horror at this remark! :eek:

If you display one ounce of this attitude at your selection board - I can guarantee that you will be sent packing out the front gates of Cranwell faster than you can say: "I'm not young enough to know everything!"

Be reminded that your academic qualifications, coupled with Officer Training, DOES NOT place you in an immediate position where you are more qualified or, superior to non-commissioned engineers - or for that matter; any other category or mustering.

An attitude such as you have displayed with your comments, will immediately become apparent to those subordinate to you, and to those with whom you are subordinate.

Remember, as an officer, your 'troops' are your number one priority - full stop! Treat them as you would a member of your own family. These are the people who can make you, or break you (sorry about the cliche).

Respect their experience and knowledge base. Use your officer 'skills' to draw upon their collective wealth, in order to make prudent and well informed decisions.

Show an interest in their work and be a 'leader' above all. Make timely decisions and ensure you keep the 'troops' well informed at all times!

Often it is best to keep your ears open and your mouth shut - at least until such time that you actually know something.

You will not gain respect by demonstrating an aire of superiority or cockiness. A degree and a Queen's Commission does not buy respect.

I am an Officer Cadet (OFFCDT) in the RAAF and am currently undertaking training at the RAAF Officers' Training School (OTS).

Previous to this (in my 'other' life), I was a Police Officer where over the years I had the misfortune to meet some Commissioned Officers' who displayed less than admirable leadership traits. Funnily enough, many of these same people ended up falling by the wayside due to identified issues relating to their inability to command. These people were usually promoted rapidly due to possession of outstanding academic ability/qualifications ... but totally lacked CDF !
In other words - these people were promoted well beyond their abilities!

If you are genuine about becoming an RAF Officer, then might I suggest you make the effort to visit a few RAF bases and speak with those people whom you maybe working with in the years to come.

I might recall a recent incident on my Officer Training course, where a trainee ENGO (FLGOFF) was back coursed to week one after failing to convince the Directing Staff that he possessed appropriate RAAF Qualities. This guy is one of the nicest people you could possibly meet, but his attitude was less than desirable. In effect, he has now been put behind 37 weeks! The sheer fact that an Officer trainee possesses a degree is inconsequential on Officer Training courses. I also saw a situation on my course where two medical doctors were nearly back coursed as well!

Start with the basics my friend and learn to pay attention to detail. You could possibly start by addressing the atrocious grammar displayed in your previous threads. :=

If you want to be an Officer - start now by showing leadership. Lead by example.

Before you can lead, you must learn how to follow.

Cheers,

In Oz

"Common people sleep soundly at night in the knowledge that rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" - George Orwell

[Roadster280]

Start with the basics my friend and learn to pay attention to detail. You could possibly start by addressing the attrocious grammar displayed in your previous threads.



Oh the irony!

Otherwise a very well written first post. I agree!

[Reach]

Good post, but when you do the OpSec lesson you'll learn that revealing your name, rank and unit on internet chat forums is a bad idea.

[FFP]

Consider yourself "owned" by an Aussie Off Cdt dhurst !!!!

The boys on the Sqn will have a field day !!!!:E

Good point by Reach.

[Aussie_Aviator]

Good post, but when you do the OpSec lesson you'll learn that revealing your name, rank and unit on internet chat forums is a bad idea.

You beat me to it ! :)

Thanks for the message. I was just hunting around trying to disable the "show signature" function when I received your message. Wasn't aware the original sig block had been included until I reviewed the post.

For some reason, I can't locate the sub-menu where my sig block resides? :ugh: nor can I disable my sig from the 'Miscellaneous Options'

Completely understand Opsec issues. Personal details have been manually edited from the post, as I can't seem to rectify this matter from within my personal profile menu? :mad:

Cheers,

In Oz

[Reach]

No worries mate :)

[Aussie_Aviator]

Consider yourself "owned" by an Aussie Off Cdt dhurst !!!!


Please no !!! :O

As you are some what closer geographically to Mr. dhurst - perhaps you might consider taking him under your wing (literally as it seems)? ... LOL :E hehehehe ....

Cheers,

In Oz

[dhurst]

Cheers for the advice guys, some people would take some of your comments as an insult. But I am at a learning stage so I read all your comments with an open mind.

As for my poor grammer I do apologize its just laziness and I will improve it. I know its no comparison to an Engineer Officer but I am currently an acting deputy manager at my work so I guess in some sense that I have a few management skills as I am in charge of about 6 people. like I said no real comparison to an Officer.

Their are a few good posts from Aussie Aviator and Roadster that have seemed to help, once again cheers for all your help.

[maxburner]

I've been ''at a learning stage'' all my life. It certainly never stopped when I was an officer. Some of the most valuable lessons came from the experienced NCOs I had the pleasure of working with (for?) over the years.

Good luck in your quest.

[A2QFI]

"As for my poor grammer I do apologize its just laziness and I will improve it."
1. Poor grammar isn't going to help you. It's not its
2. Recognising your failings is good but don't apologise for them.
3. Being lazy is no help in anything.
Get working and good luck!

[Melchett01]

i am going in on the electrical and comms side instead of the aerosystems

Well you might want to go comms and you can express a preference, but that isn't your choice - where you end up will depend on how you get streamed during your doughnut and spanners course.

And be careful what you ask for, or you'll end up on comms, but looking after a defunct bunker in the middle of nowhere as OC Buchan ..... then again :E

[Always a Sapper]

A lot of advice here for the potential JEngo.

Never having been in light blue I would assume a newly commisioned JEngo is advised to listen to the Chief Tec's, pretty much along the lines of the advice given to a newly commisioned RE Tp Commander by the Adjt to listen to the 'man of all knowledge' their Troop S/Sgt...

Of course theres always the famous W/Cdr Walter Holden RAF (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20807&page=1&pp=30) ...... Now there's a real ENGO, what a way to fault find on a Lightning :eek: .....

I wonder what the Lyneham Village website would have made of his little trip round the village??? :suspect:

[Severance]

Maxburner
Some of the most valuable lessons came from the experienced NCOs I had the pleasure of working with (for?) over the years.

I like the 'for' bit.:ok: It can be a bit of a grey area now and again....:}

[maxburner]

Severance:

Too true!

[Aussie_Aviator]

Cheers for the advice guys, some people would take some of your comments as an insult.

Be assured, the comments I wrote were not intended either as an insult or, an attack on your otherwise good character. The comments were made in the spirit of constructive criticism and as a learning guide.

But I am at a learning stage so I read all your comments with an open mind.

That's a much better attitude and you will do well in life if you always keep an open mind. But please remember - we will always be at a 'learning stage' - never stop learning! :)

As for my poor grammer I do apologize its just laziness and I will improve it.

Start now! (eg. 'grammer' [grammar], 'its' [it's or, it is], 'apologize' [apologise]).

We all make mistakes and I am personally not foreign to introducing the odd typo error or spelling mistake in my submissions. This is especially so on internet forum sites. However, if you are considering a career in the military - I would suggest you brush up on your general English skills (oral & written), as this forms a significant component of your working day.
Be mindful that as a junior officer, some of your written submissions may be read by very senior officers and/or members' of Parliament!

As for the 'laziness' aspect - if you are fortunate enough to be successful with entry to the RAF - the staff at Officers' Training School will not tolerate any form of laziness what so ever. But even so, you should be making every effort to show case your ability and obvious intelligence to the wider community - and, this extends to internet chat sites.

It all comes down to paying attention to detail and being mindful of who the 'audience' is that you are directing your comments.

Grammar and spelling may seem to some people to be a minor issue, but, bare in mind that many people will judge much about you, simply by your written presentations.

Also be mindful of the fact, that some of your 'audience' on this website are serving members' and you may well end up serving with, or under some of these people.

I know its no comparison to an Engineer Officer but I am currently an acting deputy manager at my work so I guess in some sense that I have a few management skills as I am in charge of about 6 people. like I said no real comparison to an Officer.

But it is a great place to start. Remember that some Officer candidates have not had the benefit of taking charge of staff members. So, run with this and learn as much as you can. Use this to your advantage.

I am not commissioned yet either (so, I'm not taking the moral high ground), however; when I was a police officer - it was not uncommon for me to be in charge of up to 20 other members of staff - often working under very highly stressful situations. I won't bore you with the 'war stories,' however; suffice to say this experience has benefitted me well with my officer training - for, in many instances, the roles of both jobs are very similar indeed.

You are obviously a very intelligent young man and the RAF would benefit greatly from employing someone such as yourself. I wish I had half the academic ability that you possess!

I encourage you to make the effort to visit a number of RAF Stations and possibly the RAF Officers' Training School, in order to gain an appreciation of the World in which you wish to join. If you do this, ensure you obtain a 'reference' from your host, verifying that you attended and detailing what activities you performed, or what you were shown during the visit. These visits will obviously enhance your application and will impress the Officer Interview Board as to your motivation and dedication.

If you need to gain access to a RAF establishment, I am confident one of the members on this site maybe able to assist with the organisational aspects/contacts or alternatively, contact your nearest recruiting centre.

I wish you all the very best with your future.

[FormerFlake]

The relationship between a Junior Officer and his senior SNCO is much like that between a young cabinate minister and his Permanent Secetary. To that end watch all 3 series of "Yes, Minister" and you should have a good grounding.

[dhurst]

Aussie I think your most recent post in this thread was the most encouraging and well written submission I have read since I have been a member on these forums. A lot of what you said is very true and I can already relate to it.

" Grammar and spelling may seem to some people to be a minor issue, but, bare in mind that many people will judge much about you, simply by your written presentations. "

So far I have found that this is true especially when talking to professionals like your self on these forums. A lot of help their Aussie and it’s all greatly appreciated. As for visits to operational RAF bases, I will look into that. I have been to RAF Shawbury as well as RAF Benson,But this was only to see my sister and her husband.

Once again many thanks.

[Severance]

So far I have found that this is true[,] especially when talking to professionals like your self on these forums. A lot of help their Aussie and it’s all greatly appreciated. As for visits to operational RAF bases, I will look into that. I have been to RAF Shawbury as well as RAF Benson,But this was only to see my sister and her husband.


Sorry, if it wasn't me it would be someone else. Good luck:ok:

[Toddington Ted]

dhurst

My apologies if you already know this but, from 31 July 2006, the new RAF Engineer Officer Foundation Training Course (EOFT) commences here at sunny Cranwell. It will in fact be 2 separate courses, one for AS and the other for CE although there will still be some common elements. Unlike the current course, the last of which ends with a graduation in September, EOFT is designed to meet the needs of the Junior Engineer Officer in an expeditionary Air Force rather than the traditional "big base" concept. Although academic rigour remains strong, there is much more emphasis on facilitation and thinking your way around situations (a thinking officer, whatever next!). BTW students always complain that there was too much written communication work in the current course only to complain that there wasn't enough after 6 months in their first appointments!

We also teach students to listen to their NCOS!

EOFT is only the beginning!

I commend the wise advice given by MReyn24050.

I am not an Engineer, but good luck!

[Rocket Chucker]

I would seriously consider an attitude transplant if you are successful in your endeavours to get into Cranwell, and particularly before you are introduced to the RAF Regiment who are expert in bringing 'hot shots' down to earth.

[Severance]

EOFT is designed to meet the needs of the Junior Engineer Officer in an expeditionary Air Force rather than the traditional "big base" concept.
Hi Toddington, can you expand a little on the above? I'm interested because BEngOs I've had to work with (for) in the field have been more 'wide eyed' than normal. I take it this is to give them a fighting chance, as it were...?

[Reach]

I would seriously consider an attitude transplant if you are successful in your endeavours to get into Cranwell, and particularly before you are introduced to the RAF Regiment who are expert in bringing 'hot shots' down to earth.

and seem to enjoy kicking guys while the're on the floor as well from your post.

DHurst said something dumb, he was corrected by a whole bunch of posters, he said sorry. Give the guy a break, he hasn't even started officer training...I'm sure he'll do fine.

[dhurst]

Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.

that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.

[Almost_done]

Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.

that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.

The trouble is that the SNCO's will judge you from a few stupid remarks!!

[Toddington Ted]

Severance

The current EngO training course (Engineer Specialist Training) is perfectly adequate, but that's the problem, its adequate, that's all even though it is closely validated and amended when feasible; the various powers that be have decided, quite rightly, that the course needs to change in order to train our future JEngOs to the training performance standard required in the 21st Century RAF. So, from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this) and more emphasis than now on deployed ops training with better scenarios for both the CE and AS students. I won't waffle further so as to avoid boring all and sundry. I hope dhurst isn't put off, I wouldn't be if I was starting out now (but I'm rapidly approaching the other end of the pipe, so to speak!) go for it!

[dhurst]

Hey Toddington Ted the new way of training does not put me off. In fact I am looking forward to it aslong as my Officer selection all goes to plan.

"from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this)"

As I do not know to much of the old way of training are you saying that there will be more practical and out in the field learning? as if there is I really do find that this way of learning is very effective. :)

[Blacksheep]

Excuse the thread creep but:
to meet the needs of the Junior Engineer Officer in an expeditionary Air Force rather than the traditional "big base" concept.Didn't they just close down DARA St. Athan and return the maintenance to the RAF Stations? Re-creating the "big base" concept with its heavy maintenance production lines...

So, the JENGOs get to play in the sand pit while the old guys mess around back at base. Just like the old days, eh?

[Aussie_Aviator]

"...and seem to enjoy kicking guys while they're on the floor."


Yeah - I just went through that 'bit' ... though I must admit I did really enjoy the ground Defence training side of things - our Ground Defence Officers and Airfield Defence Guards (equivalent to RAF Regiment) are top rate instructors, though; they rarely suffer fools gladly :ouch:

[Aussie_Aviator]

Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.

that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.

Don't despair mate - as it is easy for people to take a critical stance sitting behind a keyboard.

There are a lot of very experienced and helpful people on this site, so don't throw in the towl and do yourself an injustice by not asking relevant questions - I'm sure I'll be asking some pearlers in the months to come :)

As I have indicated previously - go visit some bases and talk to the people who will show a genuine interest in your endeavours.

It's not all doom and gloom - the military is a great career and I am sure the RAF is second to none. Don't be disillusioned :ok:

"Per Ardua Ad Astra"

[WhiteOvies]

DHurst
If, after Cranwell and maybe a first tour, you end up heading to the JFH you will receive more training on 20(R) on the art of being a JEngO before being let loose on your own. As a grad you'll get 4 months shadowing the JEngOs, learning the Harrier specific policy, technical stuff, management and other vital tools of the JEngO trade. At each stage you have to sit and pass a knowledge board where you will be asked by SEngO 20(R) or other senior engineers questions on your knowledge. Finally the SEngO will recommend you as fit to take the Certificate of Competence board which is chaired by OC Eng/Fwd (Wg Cdr) and two Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr engineers, one of whom is normally the SEngO of the Sqn you are due to go to. If you pass this grilling you get your reds and greens and are allowed to do the job for real.
Should sound familiar to RN AEOs. Caused a bit of a fuss when introduced to the RAF but it gives the JEngO a fighting chance when he gets onto the Sqn for real. It allows him to learn how it should be done and be introduced into how Lineys think(:\ ) before he gets swamped with the additional Flt Cmdr stuff that he should already know from his first tour.

However, as people have already said you are always learning. Learning to take aircrew banter is all part of the fun!:cool:

However, if you want to stay in the CE side of things I imagine there are many different ways that the RAF will teach you things once you leave Cranwell.

[PerArdua]

dhurst
Speaking as someone who came from the ranks, I found the Officer ranks a formidable place that the 2 courses at Cranwell did not prepare me for. So on arrival at my first tour I sat back (not literally) and watched others, how they interacted and how I perceived the people (SNCOs) viewed them. It quickly becomes clear that you are not meant to be best mates but there is a mutual respect, heavily weighted towards the more senior and knowledgeable SNCO, that prevents the whole system grinding to a halt.
I actually felt a fraud for the first 3 years as I didn't think anything that Cranwell had taught made me anything more than I was before. The eureka moment was a drunk conversation at exchange drinks (with SNCOs) I realised that it is confidence to lead and a full understanding of your team that makes it work. I learnt to know my team, understand what they need to get a job done and help where I could (and not get in the way too much!).
Waffling bit over. You will enjoy Cranwell but it is not the RAF as you do not get to interact with the guy who has had 3 hours sleep because he has a new baby at home or the fantastic worker whose life crashes around him when his wife leaves. Never underestimate how skilled the people the people you 'think' you are leading are.

PA

[Toddington Ted]

Dhurst, to answer your question briefly, yes. the new course is less lecture focussed (but there will still be lectures!) and more practical in its training methods. As it doesn't start until 31 Jul we will have to see how well it achieves its aim; that said, we have already integrated some of these techniques into the current course. See also Per Ardua and WhiteOvies excellent posts on JEngO training and your responsibilities as an officer.
Blacksheep, Not all JEngOs will "play in the sandpit" but, given the recent news on extra military support in Afghanistan, you can make your own assumptions. As a non-Engineer I'm still trying to understand "Forward & Depth" and I'm booked in for my lecture on the LEAN process later this month!
Interestingly, one of the DTR contractors has suggested St Athan as its preferred location (and that is freely available public domain glossy brochure stuff) for the delivery of aeronautical engineering training if it wins the bid so who knows?!
I'd better not say any more on the subject to avoid thread creep.

[Langball]

Who needs to worry about Grammar

The phenomenal power of the human mind. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid! Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt

[FFP]

Watch your spelling Langball. . . . .. . . . . . ;)

I've said it before. If someone comes on here with crap spelling, grammar etc then someone usually picks up on it and the said subject will take the hint. They may not turn into a human dictionary by their next post, but they know what people are getting at and I am sure if they are motivated and worthy of getting in the Forces, that they will work on it OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.

It does get boring and tiresome when everyone jumps on the bandwagon points out EVERY mistake the guy continues to make.

Once the English school teacher bit is done, continual picking at the posts serve little purpose. They come to ask advice, they don't hang around for grammar lessons !!

Let's lighten up on the poor souls. We are all chilled out aircrew mates in the main aren't we ?!?!?!

[Langball]

I blame the P.C. for the bad grammar (not so much the spelling).

I am a 'self taught' two finger typist. I can type reasonably fast, but I still have to look at the keyboard. I'm guaranteed to hit the right key, plus or minus one (up, down, left or right). The result is a first draft of total crap. I then run the spell checker over it (nearly always accepting the suggested correction). Problem is it doesn't always catch the spelling (I once wrote a memo about ‘socks of fire fighting foam’).

I always proof read it from the screen; problem is I now what it’s supposed to say ('cause I wrote it). But my proof reading will gloss over obvious spelling and grammar errors.

By the way, what's this thread supposed to be about?

[DKP1]

any RAF Engineers that were airman and went through BEngO training at RAF Cosford may I draw your attention to the thread BEngO Reunion....

Thanks

blot bang rub....

[Bluntend]

My advice would be to try and get hold of the Engineer Branch Yearbook 2006 - your AFCO should be able to provide you with a copy. Be aware that the role of an Engo has changed a lot in recent years. In the 21st Century RAF second line has all but gone and with it some pretty decent opportunities for Flt Cdr tours (CE and AS). I am sure it has been said by previous posters on this thread that you will learn more in your first 6 months as a Flt Cdr than you could ever learn at Cranwell. IOT lays the foundation stones for your career, how you build on them depends on the relationships you build with your subordinates, peers and superiors and of course your actual skill. I doubt your degree will assist you in any way aside from opening the door to you.
You should also be aware that because second line jobs are now few and far between, you may well find yourself in a staff tour at the DPA, DLO or Cmd. If you enjoy contract monitoring, working with industry and above all making the tea, you shouldn't have any problems at all. If, however, you want a bit of excitment from your career you will need to be at first line and you will need to compete with many others who want the same. This goes for CE and AS jobs alike. As the RAF draws down in numbers so too do many of the truelly rewarding jobs - be prepared to fight for the job you want or be prepared to be disapointed.
Finally, be wary of what you are offered in terms of a commission. There is no guarentee that a Short Service Commission will automatically lead on to a full PC. Many EngOs, despite being fine Flt Cdrs and having good write ups have found the recent manpower reductions to be brutal, indiscriminate and ultimately, for those who really wanted to stay in, a crushing disapointment.
If the above hasn't put you off, my advice is to go for it! In no other industry will you have such levels of responsibility delegated to you so early in your career.
Oh and one last thing, when a pilot says that you should have tried harder at school - then you could be a pilot too, just remember that EngOs need a degree to do their job. Pilots don't. :ok:

[Big Bear]

One word of warning, the RAF Engineering Branch Yearbook 2006 is out of date and has lots of errors in it, so check the facts before you quote them at any selection interview - A6 hub at Scampton - that idea was canned ages ago and as for the picture of the TCW deployed radar - the Wing have not deployed radars for years, even when they did, it certainly was not an air defence radar as pictured in the article by his retired airship - that is the remit of 1ACC. I sincerely hope that whichever one of the editorial team made that cock-up has gone out and shot themselves.

Having said all that, the Eng branch, particularly the CE side has a bright an interesting future and offers a lot more than you would get in civvie street.

Bear

[dhurst]

I have been talking to the Engineer Liaison team aswell as AFCO and all seems very interesting. The new way that the course is structured I think alot of students will benefit from it. As if they are anything like myself then they will learn from more of a practical aproach rather then the lecture sides. Going back to what someone posted before about typing on the computer, I touch type and I think thats where most of my mistakes come from.

[AvTech]

DHurst
As an old and bold SNCO, the things that make a good EngO is someone who:
a. Listens….. There is a vast difference between hearing and listening.
b. Tries at least once in their tour to look at the Sqadron state board and not feel the need to ask the Rectification Controller to explain what the aircraft states are. Especially when the recs cont is having one of those days. Its all on the board. However, for the hard of thinking, we will read it out to you if need be.
c. Without being pink and fluffy, at least once a week tries and talks to his guys, at all levels, about normal things. The odd thank you works well. Like everyone, we all need loving, even grumpy rigger SNECs.
d. At the Sqn beer call doesn't go swanning off with their aircrew buddies but stays with his shift. Ps the aircrew don't really like you...they just want your aircraft.
Finally, when the going gets tough, stop smile and have a laugh….it don’t half make things run better when you know that even the EngO can smile through adversity.
If you can do any of the above the people around will see you right…...

[Megaton]

How long have there been Engineer Year Books and if they're more than a year or so old why did I never get one? Always knew there was something going on that people weren't telling me about!

Edited to add that AvTech's words should be written down and dusted off every few months.

[dhurst]

Cheers for that advice AvTech! I think that I can manage to do that. Well I say that now bit I am sure its more difficult once your doing it. So from your experience you think that the aircrew dont really like you? as I have many friends in the RAF who are pilots infact my Brother in Law is one. And they all say why dont you apply for pilot? they can never see why I want to be a Engineer.

[Inginear]

As an ex-airman and serving Engo with 12 years "in command" experience of working with/for SNCOs and airman (statement not boast), IMHO Dhurst, AvTech and PerArdua have offered you some really good advice for your early years :D. However, I would like to add the following points:

1. Listen to your SNCOs as they invariably want the same as you BUT don't blindly follow them as you won't be respected and just like in all walks of life you will find a T@$$er out there who won't be on your side.
2. Listen, ask for options and opinions, ask even more questions, THEN make a decision.
3. Try not to change decisions at a drop of a hat because it appears unpopular with YOUR Boss, have a backbone and defend your troops, the right solution isn't always "flog the troops".
4. Dumb questions are easier to correct than dumb mistakes.
5. Remember that the "troops" are people too, some more educated, some less but all want to be valued.
6. Basic manners cost you nothing but often treating people as you expect to be treated pays huge dividends. They are not your servants!
6. Even the lowest ranks have good ideas sometimes.
7. Don’t be aloof, get involved, do the sh1tty jobs so that you can speak from experience.
8. Finally, never make excuses, your friends won't care and your enemies won’t be interested or believe you.


Good luck

[AvTech]

DHurst
Please lighten up... You've fallen straight into my evil SNCO trap. For 99% of info' you are given by a SNCOs, 1% is most likely a wind up (calculated to embarrass, but not dangerous). Your job, bearing in mind you are well educated, have a degree and been in charge of 6 people, is to work out which is which. Of course the aircrew will like you, so will the ground crew and so will the cooks and so will the admin staff etc etc provided you give them something to like. Attitude and respect my future officer friend. Attitude to those above, below and of course your peers is what makes everything work. Look at your early posts as an outsider. Based on what you said about 24 weeks training etc would you like you? If the answers maybe not then we are all in with a chance. If however, you answer yes then if we should ever meet on a busy SH Sqn in a far dusty land then as the song goes 'there may be trouble ahead' You'll be fine. Just don't take yourself to seriously. Anyway us SNECs love a fresh BEngO...great sport on those long night shifts!!

[Corrona]

It's worth remembering that some of those snec's are just as fresh to their rank as you are yours. As has already been said, the trick is to sort the good info/guidance from the bad. You'll be fine...most are eventually.

[AvTech]

Just to add, theres some really good EngOs out there at the moment. For instance the new SEngO 33 (MG) is one of them. Rumour is that he was in a famous ish Boy Band in the London area during the late 80's before joining as an airman then getting a commission.

[Severance]

Severance

The current EngO training course (Engineer Specialist Training) is perfectly adequate, but that's the problem, its adequate, that's all even though it is closely validated and amended when feasible; the various powers that be have decided, quite rightly, that the course needs to change in order to train our future JEngOs to the training performance standard required in the 21st Century RAF. So, from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this) and more emphasis than now on deployed ops training with better scenarios for both the CE and AS students. I won't waffle further so as to avoid boring all and sundry. I hope dhurst isn't put off, I wouldn't be if I was starting out now (but I'm rapidly approaching the other end of the pipe, so to speak!) go for it!

Thanks for getting back TT. Interesting way of going about it.
Sticking them in an enourmous sand pit with absolutely no spares and have a lot of self important blokes shout at them, threatening all kinds of things if this 'task' isn't met would be more like it. Still, it's a step in the right direction I suppose.......:rolleyes:

[Big Bear]

The revolution in Engineering training started a couple of years back. The course was split into CE and AS after Eng Manning bit and they did stuff relevant to their seperate streams. The CE staff were given a completely clear slate and consequently came up with the idea of 'lets not just fill the students full of academic nonsense, lets throw away the powerpoint and teach them what they really need to know to do their job'. Even the final exam was scenario based open book exam with the kind of questions that your future boss just might ask you. The new approach proved such a success that it was decided to redisign the whole of the course along those lines. As for the Hanger Phase, the CE scenarios also started a couple of years ago, they were a major step away from 'day 1 in the big brother house and jet C has a fairy snag' regimented style of the AS side of the house. Unfortunately it took a long time for the AS engineers to buy into the fact that comms just might be an essential part of running a squadron in todays modern Airforce.:E

The new course has not yet been run so I guess its 'wait out' to see if it delivers what it promises.

Bear

[Point0Five]

As far as I'm concerned Inginear has hit the nail on the head. Well said, you've nicely condensed some of the self-serving rhetoric, well intentioned advice and wind-ups into the practicalities of reality.
Respect. :ok: