B200 Dual engine failure - forced lob into W'boom

[CALCULATOR]

Did u guys hear of the king air 200 zs-PAM had double engine flame out on Friday 07 JULY AT 14.00. Near Pretoria in South africa.
He first declared an emergency with radar at about 14000ft, saying they had a flame out of an engine.Two minutes later they said on radar that both had flammed out and they were going for wonderboom airport for a emergency landing.
Rumour has it that this was an official charter with pax .The crew did an amazing job and dead sticked the aircraft in for a safe landing all pax 100% fine.Caa was on the scene to do an investigation.Aircraft flew back to base a few hours later???:confused:

[Q4NVS]

Heard about it and is also very curious to find out more detail.

Anyone know where the aircraft departed from (I assume this happened while climbing out from FALA or FAJS).

I know ZS-PAN operates in/out of FAWB frequently - Based in Greytown and belongs to the PANNAR group. Cannot recall ever seeing a BE20 with reg ZS-PAM.
:rolleyes:

[Gauteng Pilot]

Heard about it and is also very curious to find out more detail.
Anyone know where the aircraft departed from (I assume this happened while climbing out from FALA or FAJS).
I know ZS-PAN operates in/out of FAWB frequently - Based in Greytown and belongs to the PANNAR group. Cannot recall ever seeing a BE20 with reg ZS-PAM.
:rolleyes:

ZS-PAM is a Beech 200 registered to a company with a Lanseria P.O Box

[beechbum]

ZS-PAM used to belong to Balmoral. Flew it in Angola in the mid 90's. So the girl is still going.When I flew it it had about 18000 hours on the airframe and that was 10 years or so ago....!!!!!

[Phenomenon]

I've flown ZS-PAM about a year ago or so... and yes... her condition wasn't to good. You can see she's done her time. Used to belong to one of the big companies on Lanseria, don't know if they sold it or not?

[CALCULATOR]

Its confirmed it was Executive Turbine with 2 of there crew.!!:*

[Phenomenon]

And so the ET problems continue apparently... :}

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Sewage runs downhill, boet. When companies are in trouble it's rarely the management or directors who take it in the neck. The crews will invariably suffer at the end of the day so gloating is kind of self defeating.

Let's hope it was nothing that can bite anyone and be glad all walked away from this unscathed.

There, but for the grace of God...

[Phenomenon]

Very true Twotter! :ok:

Let's just hope that this will make some people realise that proper maintenance is necessary...

[maxrated]

I understand that it was a dual flame out due to fuel starvation.
Aircraft was enroute from a strip in the lowveld, methinks Ngala, back to Lanseria with 10 american tourists on board.

Sounds like it was a good deadstick landing though although any good sentiment in this regard is negated by the dodgy fuel planning in this case.

Lucky that everyone walked away from it.

[rattex4U]

Well done to the crew for a safe dead stick landing at "Wondertree" . Tho it seems like fuel starvation i hope ET and CAA will be gentle on the captain for bringin the pax and their a/c home in one piece. A short of the field landing would have caused fatalities, and a broken aeroplane.

mmmh sounds like a catch 22 situation

And ZS-PAM aint a gentle lady anymore, she is due for retirement soon 29 000 odd hours on the clock, a thousand away from safe fatigue life for a BE20 and she has done long & hard contract flying in Africa

Anyhow well done again to the crew they need a MEDAL :ok: :ok:

[Woof etc]

If the crew did indeed run out of fuel, then they definitely do NOT deserve any medals, regardless of the safe outcome.

Then again, lets wait for the facts to find out what the cause of the double engine flameout was.

[maxrated]

Hey Rattex,
Afraid I have to agree with Woof on this one the crew do certainly not deserve a medal for running out of fuel.

The crew were discussing their concern regarding their fuel and the accuracy of their guages at the departure field with some other chaps shortly before they all got airborne so it seems they were somewhat aware of their shortage of "go-juice" and decide to go anyway.

:rolleyes:

[Gerund]

Good old PAM. Last time I flew her she had an overnight and unexplained rippled left aileron, no weather radar (the hole was great for sandwiches), neither turn co-ordinator working, the only AI working was on the copilot side, and the only HSI working was on the captain's side, the yaw damper was inoperative, the door could only be closed by turning the bleeds off, the fuel guages were stuffed, and the seat covers could have done with a GOOD wash. (Did I say I flew her? Tut, tut)

Like a good prostitute PAM delivered the goods, even though best viewed with the lights off.

Delighted to hear she is still offering her services.

[madherb]

Without pre-empting the CAA's enquiry, some thoughts on this matter:

- why fly an aircraft with dodgy fuel gauges?
- A Be200 with 10 pax is pretty full, does it have a baggage pod?
- Performance? Airplane old and tired? Can it still handle a marginal strip?
- If the pax are Americans, they LOVE litigation; could be a tricky one if any negligence is proven.

There is pressure to fly sometimes - we all know this. For those who are in situations of a similar nature, think of the consequences if things go pear-shaped.

Old airplanes do have more problems generally. It is up to the pilots to make sure they are 100% happy with the equipment prior to flight. Routinely accepting an unserviceability, and routinely getting away with it, does not make it OK.........any accident is a tragedy, and tempting fate this way is not for the faint-hearted.

Africa has a bad air safety reputation as it is - let's try and improve it by NOT accepting pressure to fly, regardless. I know it is easier to say this than put it into practice, but it it the crews' licences that are on the line............

Fly safe. Think safety. All the time.

M

[Phenomenon]

A Be200 with 10 pax is pretty full, does it have a baggage pod?

Last time I flew her she had a cargo pod and high density seating so 10 pax is possible, especially since she's got very little equiptment in...

When the company's making money who needs a weather radar, yaw damper, fuel guages............ :}

[rattex4U]

Woof, Maxrated

Of course no credit for runnin outa fuel, but hey give em credit for their SUPER judgement and capability to land the aircraft deadstick into Wonderboom, its one in a million!!!!!!

Thaz also why i said its a catch 22, land safe or crash somewhere short killing everyone, either way you screwed.

The fuel gauges on that a/c were dodgy tho they were told the a/c was refueled that is standard at that company you ask for the amount of fuel the night before and they do it, i understand u(the pilot) still need to check it yourself but havent you guys ever made a mistake and gotten away with it, dont be so quick to point fingers at your pilot colleagues.

The industry also have to realise that these old aeroplanes need to retire at some time in their life, they become a safety risk for aviation regardless of the maintenance done on them, they get old and clapped out :zzz:

Anyhow hope both parties have realised reality so that future flying with them will be more accurate and safer :ok:

:E :E :E :E :E

[Phenomenon]

It is strange cause the fact that the crew managed to make it safely into wonderboom shows that they have quite some experience... therefore I don't believe that they will knowingly depart with insuffiecient fuel... the fuel guages on PAM has always been a problem and it still just goes above my head that a company of that stature can't even fork out a few buck to fix them... :mad:

[Jelly Doughnut]

Gerund
I won't ask when where and for which company you were flying PAM :O :O :O :O
:ok:

[Sir Cumference]

I have often asked if there is such a thing as a King Air with working fuel guages!!

SC

[Skidoo]

I flew PAM over two years ago for one flight and there were fuel guage problems then that had been going on for a LOOOOONG time. I was quickly put on another a/c when I insisted that the MEL relief requires known fuel quantity prior to the start of flight.... two issues using the MEL required snagging the a/c and under the MEL relief the only way to verify the fuel qty was to fill the tanks and calculate fuel burn from f/flow gauges (Mission could not be completed with full fuel). This all occued when she was in the Sahara.

[The Trappist]

Comprehensive report here:

Plane Runs Out Of Fuel During Flight

By Roger Makings
Sunday Times 16 July 2006

Two pilots have been suspended after their aircraft carrying 10 foreign tourists ran out of fuel on a flight from the Kruger Park to Lanseria Airport last week.
The King Air 200 aircraft, with both engines dead, made an emergency landing at Wonderboom Airport outside Pretoria. On board were two American families including children.
Although the successful “dead stick” landing has been praised by other pilots as an “amazing job” and a “one-in-a million” result that narrowly avoided disaster, the unnamed cockpit crew have been widely criticized for not accurately checking the available fuel before taking off.
Aviation safety consultant Mick Mitchell of Global Aviation said this week: “For an aircraft to run out of fuel, is, to say the least, much more than an oversight.”
This was followed by a second incident this week when a single-engined Caravan aircraft, also owned by Executive Turbine Aviation, but leased to and operated and maintained by another company, also had to make an emergency landing after taking off from the same airstrip following an engine malfunction. It too landed safely.
A spokesman for Executive Turbine Aviation said this week both incidents would be fully investigated.
“We are conducting a thorough internal investigation into the King Air incident even though our pilots handled the situation very professionally and no one was hurt.”
“We need to get to the bottom of this problem. This is viewed in a serious light, but we don’t want to compromise our, or the CAA’s investigation by saying too much. Following a long management meeting on Thursday corrective measures have already been implemented.”
He said although the pilots had been removed from line operations this did not infer blame.
In an apparent reference to the fact that the King Air had a history of fuel gauge problems, Mitchell said: “When the technical history of an aircraft indicates a recurrent problem, management should take proactive measures to resolve it immediately. Also, pilots should always be aware of technical problems.”
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority confirmed this week that the licences of the two King Air pilots had been suspended and that it would also look into suggestions that the aircraft had a history of faulty fuel gauges.
Leo Scheijde the chief financial officer of the exclusive Ngala Private Game Reserve in the Kruger Park, this week confirmed both incidents.
Scheijde said although the lodge was aware of the Caravan emergency it initially had no knowledge of the incident involving the fuel-starved King Air.
He said, “The Caravan landed at one of the many strips in the Lowveld where our guests are accommodated at a nearby lodge and we later arranged transport for them to Johannesburg.”
He said that many guests arrived at the lodge on trips arranged by tour operators who took responsibility for their arrivals and departures.
“Until Friday, we had not been informed of the King Air incident.”
Scheijde said it was company policy not to divulge the details of guests staying at Ngala.

[south coast]

i heard that their licences were not suspended...

are you sure the crew are suspended?

[starvingpilot]

Anyone know anything about the Van Incident??

[putt for dough]

Does anybody want to be so kind as to share the
names of ZS-PAM's crew:ok:

[Phenomenon]

Does anybody want to be so kind as to share the
names of ZS-PAM's crew

Maybe we should show at least some respect to the crew. If you do not by now know, you don't need to know. Irrespective of whether their actions are right or wrong, they are still our fellow airmen.

I'm sure they have enough hassles and problems as it is, no need to add salt to the wound. :ok:

[putt for dough]

Maybe we should show at least some respect to the crew. If you do not by now know, you don't need to know.
Phenomenon....
I never knew that asking for the crews names that were involved
was in anyway showing disrespect. Where does that come from?
Secondly buddy, who are you to determine who is allowed to know
the names of the crew and who isn't?
Please, go bark up somebody elses tree:eek:
Anybody care to share the names? Just curious thats all!:ok:

[Shrike200]

Perhaps, when that information posted above refers to the CAA 'suspending their licences', they're just referring to the usual CAA practice of telling the offenders to rewrite airlaw and redo a flight test, or something similar.

And I agree, no need to post names - like you say, they'll have enough on their plate. Also, unless they truly are clueless imbeciles, they won't make that mistake again! Let the CAA decide what to do with their licences.

[Shrike200]

Yeah, after having shirked the maintenance duties for a while it seems, I'm sure they'll be only too happy to let the pilots hang out to dry on this one.

There but for the grace of God go we....

[fluffyfan]

putt for dough...........whats your name?

2high2fly well said.

[putt for dough]

Fair enough, it took me a while!:}
I respect the fellow professional, rather keep it out of
pprune if it might have the slightest chance of ruining their
reps!
Peace:ok:

[Phenomenon]

If you do not by now know, you don't need to know.

Putt for dough... Have to apologise for that part though :O In restrospect it does make me look like a bit of an @sshole...

I know the one crew member and that is why I know, and what I was trying to get at is that if the crew concerned wants te tell you, then that's up to them... Like the other guys also said, I just don't want good pilots to get a bad rep. :ok:

Keep well.:ok:

[Over and gout]

Good old PAM. Last time I flew her she had an overnight and unexplained rippled left aileron, no weather radar (the hole was great for sandwiches), neither turn co-ordinator working, the only AI working was on the copilot side, and the only HSI working was on the captain's side, the yaw damper was inoperative, the door could only be closed by turning the bleeds off, the fuel guages were stuffed, and the seat covers could have done with a GOOD wash. (Did I say I flew her? Tut, tut)
Like a good prostitute PAM delivered the goods, even though best viewed with the lights off.
Delighted to hear she is still offering her services.


I cant believe you flew it.....

[B200Drvr]

Gentleman,
At the end of the day the responsability is that of the Pilot in command. Every aviation FOM/SOP/ LAW book tells you that, we all know that maintenance are not going to take the fall for this or any other incident that stems from "pilot responsability"
However, let us not judge these guys untill all is heard, we all know how this business works and what is said and done at this level of the industry.
Let us be grateful to learn from others.

[Woof etc]

Does the 200 not have a low fuel warning that is independent of the main fuel gauges? Or does it use the same level sensors?

Although my first response is to say 'unforgiveable', I must say I tend to rely on the fuel gauges quite a bit for refuelling purposes. Then again if one of the gauges or level sensors had failed I would expect to notice a significant level discrepancy between the LH and RH tanks which should set some alarms ringing?

Reminds me of the Tunisian ATR72 crash a couple of years ago that ditched off Palermo after running out of fuel. Turns out the mechanics had replaced the fuel level sensors with ATR42 sensors by mistake, over-indicating the correct fuel quantity.

[dakotanorb]

Hi all there,
This was an incident that can be avoided with ease.
I don’t know about the Ex-T Flight Logs, but it is standard praxis in Europe to mention the remaining fuel in the flight log after shut down on the destination.
With this information together with the minimum fuel for the next flight it’s possible to calculate the minimum uplift required.
Just a look on the fuel slip will tell you now if you got the fuel you need.
Fly save!:ok:

[wheels up]

Except......How do you determine the fuel remaining.....using the fuel gauges??

And if the gauges are incorrect??

Could work on fuel consumption but errors accumulate.

[Shrike200]

Except......How do you determine the fuel remaining.....using the fuel gauges??

I think you spotted the obvious flaw in his logic there.... :ok:

[wheels up]

Hey Shrike - I have supernatural powers of observation. Which is why I notice I have exactly the same number of posts as you. Except now i got one more.

[dakotanorb]

Hi there,
Have a look in the King Air 200 MEL. It is clearly stated that the PIC has to make sure to have sufficient fuel on board for the flight. There are no dip-sticks on a 200, so you have to take full main tanks if you don’t know how much is in there. Then it is easy once more. Just open the filler cap and if you see fuel then they are full.
Fly safe:ok:

[Shrike200]

Hey Shrike - I have supernatural powers of observation. Which is why I notice I have exactly the same number of posts as you. Except now i got one more.

Uncanny!

P.S. +1, just to keep it even ;)

[wheels up]

Shrike - this could get out of hand....

[Gerund]

Over and gout... nor can I! It was a difficult call. Ho hum!

dakotanorb... Just a couple of points. If you write the fuel remaining in the logs (maybe based on fuel burn if the gauges are duff), that is nice and dandy in Europe. Unfortunately, south of the Sahara, fuel is often stolen from the tanks overnight, in plastic carrrier bags no less! Lots of them!! As to Just open the filler cap and if you see fuel then they are full.
... this is, unfortunately, a common tyro's error on the 200. This WILL NOT guarantee full tanks. Use finger. This is probably not allowed in Europe for Health and Safety reasons due to the carcinogenic nature of Jet A1. I guess a strong twig from the side of the apron would do.

[Contract Dog]

I have never flown a 1900 or a 200 with functioning guages, we have replaced sensors, controll units and guages and still the bastards over read. the best way i have found is to go through the months flight folio, look at all the fuel uplifted and divide it into the hrs flown, for planning the guys always say 700lbs 1st hr and 600lbs fuel every hr after that, i have however found that some 200's use 650lbs and 550lbs, its all about taking the time to know your a/c and save yourself from something like this. having said that, i always take off with minimum of full mains and limit pax to 8, then you always know whats in the tank. (easy to do on contract though, not so easy on a charter) but if the company is not prepared to give you a fully functional a/c, they must be prepared to loose business and limit pax numbers.

[dakotanorb]

Hi Gerund,
Just a few points here:
Yes, fuel gets stolen in plastic bags and even 200 liter drums in Goma. We filled up Red X 906 to the top and the right rear tank was empty in the morning. The fuel gauge showed it and on the normal water check there was no fuel coming from the drain. There were 3 indications that the required fuel was not on board any more.
Both engines died on Red X 119 on Taxi after re-fueling in Mazar-e Sharif. The reason was that the lid of the Red X refueling truck was left open in heavy rain.

I like the tort of Contract Dog to check the logs out. This is a good start to prevent a dead stick landing.

There is a lot to be aware of to stay alive in aviation and the goal has to be to learn from peoples experiences. No one will stay alive to do all the mistakes him self.
Fly save.:ok:

[Gerund]

dakota ...check your pms.

[crause]

For an aircraft to run out of fuel is, to say the least, much more than an oversight! These were the words of an aviation safety consultant after the recent incident involving the flight of a King Air 200 aircraft which took off from the Kruger Park International Airport bound for Lanseria International Airport.



The pilot had to make a “dead stick” emergency landing at Wonderboom Airport after running out of fuel, and was praised as having done an amazing job – narrowly avoiding disaster. On board were two American families, including their children. Nevertheless the pilots were suspended and the SA CAA has had their licences rescinded for not checking that there was in fact sufficient fuel on board to cover the flight.



A full-scale investigation is pending and the operator is not prepared to say any more – not wanting to compromise his or the CAA’s investigation.



What has come out of the woodwork is a statement that the aircraft had a history of recurrent faulty fuel gauges. Since there is no other way of ascertaining the quantity of fuel on board, ie dip or drip sticks, other than to rely on the fuel gauge system, or to drain the fuel tanks and refill them, this surely is justification for grounding the aircraft until the problem has been resolve conclusively.



This kind of problem does not fall within the bounds of “allowable efficiencies for flight” and it is hoped that the CAA takes the same view and regulates accordingly.