More appalling "service" from Air France/KLM

[Bus429]

On Friday, July 7th, I checked in for the KL 1774 FRA/AMS for onward flight to NCL. Strange that the departure time had changed and it was soon confirmed flight had been cancelled; these things happen.

We unfortunate passengers had to line up at the ticket desk while one member of staff dealt with us over 4 hours. No information from other members of staff, nor any offer of water or other refreshment (FRA Terminal 2 seems to have few cafes or restaurants).
Other members of Air France/KLM staff - all of whom appeared to be French - were sitting idle at the check-in desks. When asked why they could not assist there colleague at the ticket desk, they said they had not been trained to use "KLM's system". Apparently, this precludes their offering passengers any information or refreshment as well.
Some passengers gave up and made their own arrangements to get to their destinations. I was offered an alternative flight via CDG departing this morning - I am compiling this as I wait - and did receive HOTAC.

I am afraid all of the problems I've had with air travel over the last 3 years have been with KLM; an airline with absolutely no notion, concept or concern for passenger welfare. Sod 'em! :yuk:

[zed3]

Unfortunately , it's not just KLM - it's a national trait . How the country has changed over the last 30+ years with many Dutch folk voting with their feet and emigrating .

[goshdarnit]

I have given up on KLM completely and now do not use them at all (where I have a reasonable choice).
The customer is always extremely important, but someone like me ('platinum' in their program with weekly short- and long-haul flights) is exactly the kind of business that is their bread and butter. I do not have excessive or unreasonable demands, simply a decent level of customer service and an attempt to be helpful if plans change.
My last flight with KLM was a couple of months ago when they twice flatly refused to accommodate my request to move my ZRH-CWL to a day earlier. I ended paying £400 for a new ticket, and then they had the bare-faced cheek to tell me I had to cancel my original return ticket as the system would show me leaving ZRH twice in two days and "I may have problems". I have never heard such utter sh*te in my life and that was the final straw. I do not think I have ever been so apoplectic with rage, although I smile about it now!
I now use a combination of SAS, Swiss, EZ, RyanAir, etc, as appropriate, and in actual fact driving to LHR, BHX or BRS is not that big a deal.
I had already switched my long-haul to VS and I am already 'gold' with their program.
I just wish that losing me as a customer would actually mean something to them, and they would ask what the problem was. But they didn't care about me when I was flying with them, so there is no way they will care now that I am not!!!! := :ugh:

GDI

[Cyrano]

My last flight with KLM was a couple of months ago when they twice flatly refused to accommodate my request to move my ZRH-CWL to a day earlier.

That seems unfortunate. Did the fare rules for the ticket you bought allow it to be changed, or was it a non-flexible ticket for which you'd hoped your Platinum status would cause them to bend the rules?

[Bus429]

If my first post wasn't bad enough...
Checked in for KL 964 NCL/AMS (dep 1625L) at around 1400. Ominous that a KLM 737 was parked remote at NCL. Transpires that this was the KL 958 which was ultimately cancelled. KL 964 left an hour late (1725L) with no explanation from Swissport, KLM's partner in crime. Only learned of reason for delay from captain once taxying (getting KL 958 pax sorted).

Once in AMS, baggage carousel indicated 20 minute wait, then 40. A trip to "Baggage Services" confirmed that bag had never left NCL. I refuse to believe that this was not intentional given my check-in time. I write this from the Dorint Sofitel at AMS wearing the same clothes I put on yesterday morning (10/07). I am told my bag is on its way but as it contains presentation equipment as well as clothing, it is too late. I had to run my course using borrowed equipment.
I believe KLM actively promote the culture of obfuscation, lying and, when challenged, toughing it out.
I despise KLM's culture and, given the choice, will use any alternative to get to AMS or other destinations from NCL.
KLM is a crap airline.:ugh:

[Little Fokker]

If KLM / Air France's 'suits' took the time to go thru Pprune's (and other similar) Forums, they would see what was happening through the experience of the passengers comments and not spend so much (wasted) money on Questionaires. These are expensive and sometimes are made up by students doing some thesis or other. How many of us when presented with a Questionaire spent the quoted 15 mins doing it properly. Attention span for me is about 5 - 7 mins. KLM / AF need to get their act together pretty quicky as it is turning to 'merde'.

[Bus429]

I've just sent KLM a link to this site - doubt it'll do any good.

[MyData]

If anyone from KLM/AF does get to read this... After a year I'm still waiting for my name to be corrected on my FF account. It was fine under KLM but since the merger my name has been screwed up by a typo along the way. So I could no longer use fast check in, had to queue up each time as my card name didn't match my ticket name.

Apparently this is MY problem and I've got to do the chasing to sort it out. E-mails and letters to Amsterdam and Paris. Faxes. Talking nicely to the people at check-in, ticketing, lounges at MAN and AMS has got me absolutely nowhere.

I know it is only a small point BUT it has pushed me to other airlines...

[Little Fokker]

Ahh, gone are the days when you arrived at a Crown Lounge at Schiphol prior to or after a 10 hour flight, greeted by a pleasant face at the reception, knackered and wanting to taking a shower, use their rather comfortable revolving (clean every time) toilet seat and have a hot snack. And then you realise you have lost your laminated FF card attached to your briefcase. Now you have a belligerent 50-something who (obviously ain't getting enough sex from her old man) almost questions your justification to be in a lounge and ushes you away ready for the next customer. Dare you ask her to order a new card for you - WHAT?! Is that discontentment with the job or what. (Rarely) no more hot snacks and I miss the amusing toilet seat. Now I only look forward to peeing on the fly in the urinals - (ladies, get your fella to explain it next time you drop by AMS).

[Little Fokker]

I've just sent KLM a link to this site - doubt it'll do any good.

Bus, they could probably do with this more pertinent one too;- http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=594

LF

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

For some time I lived near a UK regional airport from which it used to be comparatively easy to fly to Schiphol and then onwards, on KLM, to Johannesburg or other global points. It was never a particularily pleasant experience, flying with KLM, irrespective of which class, but it was very convenient. Certainly it beat having to position to Heathrow.
Now, after too many problems with the company, characterised in particular by an appalling attitude problem right across the board, but which seems to get worse the higher up the pecking order one goes; we position to LHR and drift down to JHB or anywhere else for that matter, on any carrier except KLM.
In fact, so unhelpful, unobtainable and obnoxious were KLM in Johannesburg, the last time we used them, that we actually ditched the return section of our tickets and came back on Platignum.
The final straw in this sorry saga of the demise of a good airline was the incredible intransigence I experienced when trying to use my accumulated KLM Air Miles. In my case, at any rate, not worth the vapour to blow them to hell.
Oh yes, just as a minor aside, I know that Holland is quite a small country of some 41k sq kms, with quite a small population of about 17m, but surely the airline could produce ground and flight staff who were pretty as well as being rude?:yuk:

[lexxity]

It's a good job Flaps40 isn't around at the mo, although that comment could get her back.:} :rolleyes: :suspect: :ouch:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Okay then,~~~ quiver, quiver~~~. Flaps 40 is a moderator, works for KLM, isn't pretty, is rude or is Dutch? Sounds quite fearsome in any event, any further elucidation forthcoming?;)

[Little Fokker]

I know we could discuss delayed baggage all day, but a now amusing memory came back to me reading Bus' woes. About three years ago I made a flight from Eastern Europe to BHX via AMS. I only checked in (my favourite) flight bag as it was for a couple of nights stay - it never arrived. KLM did not give me compensation as I was returning to domocile country etc and it was not worth my insurance after excess. Anyway, about 16 MONTHS!! later there was a knock on my door and I chap from their handling agents at the time proudly held my bag over his shoulder. 'I believe this is yours, sir'. My delight that everything was still there including an old newspaper from my flight out. Now where had that bag been hiding for over a year? For the record, in a period of 2 years, that chap couriered over from BHX, delayed bags to my house a good 6 times - 120km distance involved.

[Octopussy2]

Yes, where IS Flaps? I miss her.:{

[Bus429]

It is currently 1600L at AMS and I'm killing time until my flight to NCL at 2100. On checking in (KLM seems to be encouraging every pax to use self-service with baggage drop), I was b*ll*cked for not using the correct lane for normal check-in. I am now surprised if KLM staff are polite!
You will all be glad to know I got my bag back last night (delivered to my hotel) but absolutely no apology from KLM. If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to buy KLM and shut it down! (it cannot be worth very much).

[Little Fokker]

So are you planning on getting 3 numbers tonight or Saturday?:)

[Bus429]

No lucky numbers last night but at least I got home with my bags!

[SXB]

Bus429
I agree with you about KLM/Air France 100%. As a result of my experiences I exercise my right as a consumer not to give them my (or my employers) money wherever practically possible. Not a problem for KLM flights as their network is limited but I am sometimes obliged to use AF from SXB-CDG because nobody else flies that route. Would I be right in assuming your continued use of KLM, despite your clear unhappiness with their service, is due to a similar lack of competition ?

The organisation I work for is a well known European organisation based in SXB, in any one year staff and associated individuals are doing 12-15000 journeys per year. We have a travel agancy permanently based on our premises who work exclusively for us (CWT at the moment) About 25 years ago 90% of all our airline travel was with Airfrance but today this stands at 5% (cash terms) and this represents staff trips to Paris, though we try to encourage them to take the train. Most of the reduction in AF useage is driven by economic factors, mainly because both Austrian and Lufthansa have targeted SXB and have made themselves more competitive than AF.

My point being that the market always prevails, AF have escaped these cruel realities for longer than most airlines because of the massive subsidies they've received, both direct and indirect, plus all the cozy "grey" agreements with other French ground operators. The success of AF today is built on such arrangements and the hangars full of gleaming new Airbus have been funded by Mme et M. French taxpayer. They will, eventually, have to compete on equal footing with some of the better run European Airlines and when this day comes they will die.

The other point in my organisation is that we give people a lot of autonomy over which route (and therefore which airline) they use and one of the reasons they avoid AF is because of the feeder policy they have which means you always have to go to Paris, and now, to Amsterdam before picking up the main route.

To conclude, if you want to change things then vote with your wallet and your feet....

[Bus429]

SXB,

Where I have a choice, I will not use KLM. Unfortunately, our customers often book our flights for us so we have to use KLM.
Unfortunately, brand loyalty counts for nothing with KLM. I used them almost exclusively for 2.5 years flying between HEL and NCL. Having not flown with them for about 9 months, I received an Ivory Frequent Flyer card with a covering letter saying I had been demoted from Elite Silver or whatever it is/was called.
Arrogant as well as stupid.

[Ludo]

if you want to change things then vote with your wallet and your feet
Passengers ARE voting with their waller and their feet.

+ 7,1% pax traffic and + 0,9% seats occupied on board, up to 82,4%

[SXB]

Ludo
Yes, normally I would point out that statistics mean nothing, very easy to manipulate. But in this case AF/KLM's success is also supported by the bottom line on their P&L statements. That said it's a lot easier to run an airline when most of your aircraft have been funded by the tax payer...

[Bus429]

During the episode that prompted this thread, one disgruntled fellow passenger, when asking other Air France/KLM staff why they were not helping their colleague, was told: "that's why the tickets are cheap".
Some of KLM's fares are low but should that indicate that you deserve to be treated in the manner described? I was not aware tht KLM had changed their business model to an LCC. :ugh:

[Bus429]

I have received a reply from Swissport concerning the hassle on July 10th. They claim a small amount of baggage belonging to those passengers on KL 964 was off-loaded (I contend it was all off-loaded due to the need to get the bags for the cancelled 958 to AMS).

Swissport and KLM apparently strive to offer the best in customer support and "share my disappoinment" that this was not the case on Monday. :ugh:

A cursory email from KLM today notes that Swissport has already been in contact and that any claims for loss should be sent to KLM. No explanation, mitigation or apology.
I would like to publish the emails I have received but suspect I may contravene the Data Protection Act if I were to do so.:yuk:

[Ludo]

when most of your aircraft have been funded by the tax payer
SXB, it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, and you are right to post in the SLF Forum where your display of ignorance and repeating of information older than a decade might go unnoticed.

[ash666]

I, too, never use KLM unless I really can't avoid it since I was in transit at BKK with a re-confirmed seat(actual seat reserved in business class) only to be told, " I'm sorry sir but the plane is full and you're not on it". I was a FF at the time.
When I got to AMS I went to the KLM desk to complain about the overbooking only to be met with incredulity at my asking about it at was told, "of course we overbook otherwise the planes would be half empty"! If the seats have all been sold and paid for I would have thought that half empty planes would be a good thing- less fuel,food....
Not long ago on the hop back from AMS to NCL( how old are those planes??) I almost thought we we going to board on time. Of course we then got the message that the plane had a technical fault and we needed to wait for another plane and they didn't know where it was or how long it was going to take. I asked the girl(?) at the desk why their planes break down so often expecting the party line of "this is not common sir..." but she just said, "I wish I could tell you" :D

[840]

Is it my imagination or are the KLM Fokker 100s really prone to mechanical problems? Of the last four legs I have flown on one of them, I have got three delays of over an hour because of technical problems with the aircraft.

Incidentally, another one to add to the list of appalling service incidents, even if it didn't involve me. I was taking an evening flight out of Toulouse which was delayed by over an hour. One of my fellow customers was going to miss his connecting flight because of it. He was telling the staff that he often flew with Air France via Lyons instead of KLM via Amsterdam. Now you'd think with them being the same airline and with them being forced to deal with the consequences (overnight stay) of the flight being late into Amsterdam that it would be a case of checking if there was capacity to send him via Lyons. But no, the gate staff didn't even check this possibility prefering to assure him that he'd be taken care of in Amsterdam...

[SXB]

Ludo
SXB, it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, and you are right to post in the SLF Forum where your display of ignorance and repeating of information older than a decade might go unnoticed

You'd be surprised at my knowledge of organisations that may or may not have been funded in ways that are contrary to the competition laws that exist in our Union. One thing I will absolutely guarantee is that I know a hell of lot more about it than you do.

[str12]

I too avoid KLM where possible, even though I am a Platinum FF. I have accrued a lot of level miles so am just going to use them up before I leave them.

I live in Amsterdam and flew Business Class to Newark / JFK 14 times last year so I would put myself in the category of 'bread and butter customer' for any airline. I always try and fly Continental because KLM are rubbish: cr@p food, cr@p service, cr@p IFE. Fortunately they haven't lost my luggage yet but I am expecting them to.

Living in Amsterdam has set my expectations to very low standards for customer service, it seems to be a Dutch thing...

[Bus429]

I am surprised to read several posts indicating that the Dutch attitude to customer service is poor. Like many Brits, I always felt the Dutch to be a progressive and tolerant people. Other than my experiences with KLM, all other dealings as a customer in AMS or other places in the Netherlands have been no problem at all.
I have exchanged several emails with KLM's Customer Care Dept over the problems with KL 964. I have been offered a £50 voucher as a gesture of goodwill; I have sent it back. Dishing out vouchers will not solve their problems.
Useless airline.

[tezzer]

I gave up on KLM a year ago. It used to be so easy for me to drive the 25 miles to HUY, then hop over to AMS but they lost my luggage on so may occasions, both outbound and on the return leg that I was on first name terms with the van driver who used to deliver my bags. As has been said here, it's no fun, sitting in a hoel room, or worse a meeting room in the clothes you put on at 5 am yesterday.

I occaisionally had decent service, but it was adequate, rather than exceptional. I had Platinum status for 5 years running, but have switched my business to Star alliance.

The final straw was on a Thai airlines flight from Beijing to Bangkok. In business class, the guy sat behind me really, and I mean really laid into the CC for the quality of the aircraft seats. OK, it was a 747-300 and was "tired", but it wasn't the girls fault. Despite her apologies the guy shouted at the top of hs voice that "he was a member of the KLM board, so knew what was going on !". W:mad: r !

[goshdarnit]

That seems unfortunate. Did the fare rules for the ticket you bought allow it to be changed, or was it a non-flexible ticket for which you'd hoped your Platinum status would cause them to bend the rules?

Cyrano,
fact is I bought the ticket online, and I had tried to book a return for Friday, only for the online facility to deny me (flight not available). Now as Platinum, KLM would guarantee me a seat on any flight with 24 hours notice, so I booked for a Saturday return intending to switch to Friday as soon as I could speak to someone at ZRH. Now I did book a non-flexible ticket, so technically KLM staff were quite correct, although I have to say it was not clear to me on the website that I was doing that, and had I known I would not have booked it that way. However it was the dismissive and rude attitude that really irked me, as well as the intransigence. As I said I was turned down twice, once face-face @ ZRH, and once over the 'phone with Platinum Helpdesk, when I had to buy another ticket, including having to pay a fee for doing it over the 'phone and being forced to cancel my original ticket.
Put this in context - this was the final straw after a couple of years of declining service; not only were KLM getting worse, but they suffered by comparison to almost every other carrier I have used.
As for spending miles, jeez, there is another story worthy of a thread by itself! Suffice to say I do not understand how it can be difficult to get to the USA when you have the combined capabilities of KLM, AF, Delta, Northwest and Continental.

Just flew LHR-ARN return w/ SAS, what lovely people!, and even my trips w/ RyanAir are a perfectly reasonable and predictable experience.

GDI

[perkin]

although I have to say it was not clear to me on the website that I was doing that

I've booked numerous flights through KLM's website and it is perfectly clear about how flexible a ticket is if you actually bother to read the T&C's...As with all other airlines websites I've used, the flexibility of the ticket is in the T&C's, if you don't bother to read the small print, then thats just tough luck if you try to change later and they deny it... :)

[Middle Seat]

I have to chuckle. Experiences are all relative. But after spending most of your flights on US domestic services of USAirways, Untied, American, Delta and Northwest, I promise there'll be not much to complain about KLM.

I guess since I've been desensitized in the states....

[refso]

Living in Amsterdam has set my expectations to very low standards for customer service, it seems to be a Dutch thing...

Well go back and stay in the US then, same f#ing service plus 15% expected tip on top of everything for what…
Airlines with 55+ cabin crew and well overweigthed.
Used US airlines in Business % First Class X timesbut was not amused at all with their CS, loads of talking without solving….
Seems to be a US thing… :}

[liteboy]

have been using KLM as airline of choice for over 10 years and find them acceptable value for money especially when compared to most US carriers. If you want the best service then fly BA and be prepared to pay at least 50% more in economy and at least twice as much in business.

Will admit though since merger with AF they have gone downhill especially their FF program.

[goshdarnit]

Nice attitude Perkin, is it a coincidence that your location is Netherlands?!

You missed the point - I became aware that I had made a mistake with the ticket, it was the attitude surrounding the situation that was the final straw. It could not really have been handled any worse. Do you actually understand what I am talking about? Customer service?

GDI

[Bangkokeasy]

Come to think of it, KLM is the only airline that has ever lost my bags in over 2000 sectors as SLF. They did it twice, took them to the wrong airport, after transitting in Schiphol. That was before 9/11 and I don't fly with them any more.

What amazes me about this thread though, is the number of posts defending the sort of service KLM appear still not to provide. :confused:

I spotted an apt quote today, attributed to the US talk show host, Dick Cavett. "As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it".

(edited for smelling pistakes)

[perkin]

Nice attitude Perkin, is it a coincidence that your location is Netherlands?!

You missed the point - I became aware that I had made a mistake with the ticket, it was the attitude surrounding the situation that was the final straw. It could not really have been handled any worse. Do you actually understand what I am talking about? Customer service?

GDI

I'm assuming you're insinuating that I might be Dutch? Well, in fact, I'm actually a Brit living over here, I am certainly no fan whatsoever of KLM, I prefer to use Jet2.com on my frequent trips home via MAN. I have in the past flown frequently with KLM to LHR & MAN, and find them quite adequate really, though somewhat prone to delays on occasion.

The website is perfectly clear and you cannot really complain when you buy an incorrect ticket and expect them to change it, I suspect, because "I'm platinum member of flying blue". I know a fair few people who have missed flights (on non-flexible tickets) and KLM desk agents have re-booked them free of charge, no excess ticket charges and with a smile as long as they were treated similarly. So perhaps its actually your attitude thats at fault here?

Given your apparent attitude towards the Dutch, I suggest you don't bother visiting this grand little corner of Europe anymore if its populace irritate you that much.

[goshdarnit]

Gosh, a little PPRuNe spat!
perkin: I alluded to your location, not your nationality; irrespective of that I have no problem with the Dutch, or any other nationality. Try not to be so defensive.
However I am grateful that you pointed out that it was all my fault; doubtless now that I am no longer upsetting the KLM folks the service will improve.

[str12]

refso

I am not from the US, I am a Brit and accept your apology for the assumption.

I fly frequently due to work and joined Flying Blue because I live in Amsterdam and it seemed like the right thing to do, at the time. I went 0 - Platinum in 6 months last year.

After a few poor experiences I now fly Continental to the US, as do all my colleagues when we have a choice. When one of us is given the 'kiss of death' news that the only seats left are with KLM comments like 'sorry mate' and 'bad luck' are heard around the office. My Dutch colleagues are the same. I do use KLM to go back to the UK however, but it is KLM UK and have had no problems.

4 years in the Netherlands makes me wonder how this country, once famous as a trading nation, got there in the first place. At work I just have to mention NUON, UPC, KPN, KLM etc. and the stories of appalling Customer Service echo around. Is it something taught at school?

Before you suggest that I now go back to the UK instead of the US I must remind you that I have exerted my freedom as an EU citizen to live and work here in the Netherlands, and, if I want to express an opinion about my country of residence...I jolly well will.

I travel to Germany quite a bit and must say (assuming that you are Dutch) your cousins do a much better job...in just about everything :E

Safe flying.

[perkin]

Gosh, a little PPRuNe spat!
perkin: I alluded to your location, not your nationality; irrespective of that I have no problem with the Dutch, or any other nationality. Try not to be so defensive.
However I am grateful that you pointed out that it was all my fault; doubtless now that I am no longer upsetting the KLM folks the service will improve.

yep, vote quietly with your feet, its the best and surely the most satisfying complaint you can make! I won't use KLM anymore either, unless they are exceptionally cheaper than anyone else (rare), and take great delight at sitting in my reasonably plush leather BA/Jet2 seat, with a cheaper ticket, thinking about those poor souls and their soggy cheese sandwiches stuffed into a KLM can...! :)