Electronic v Paper Manuals, and who pays for them?

[max autobrakes]

Come on Woomera,
Why did you close this thread down before I could add something constructive?
Now with regards to electronic manuals etc,
What format are they in?
Is this format an acceptable format that will satisfy ISO compliancy?
What happens to an Airline that fails an ISO audit?
Yes you Qantas and JetStar and Australian Airlines and etc, etc.
are you ISO compliant with these types of electronic manuals?
Can anyone answer the above please?

[Jet Jockey]

Jetstar have issued nearly all manuals in a binder A5 size. The only manuals issue on cd have been Airbus Fcom manuals. These manuals are available in paper format in every aircraft and every crew room. Some new recruits expressed they would like a paper copy of the Airbus Fcom manuals so the company has offered to supply one at a good price deducted from pretax salary. Most airlines around the world generally only supply CD electonic manuals for the airbus these days in pdf format. Much more cost effective for airbus and the airlines. The paper amendments were a pain in the arse to say the least.
Look at casa. Most air leg documents are available on the net or electronic means and amendment service.
Just because Australia and the red rat are playing catchup you have the audacity to criticise Jetstar with adopting a modern recognised approach.
The crap that goes over this site make me sick some times.:ugh:

[QFinsider]

Given the fact as a pilot we need be compliant with the myriad of legislation heaped on us from the "authority" it would be a brave individual who assumes that the electronic document provided by a well known LCC be supported correctly inorder to ensure the pilot has the access to up to date information.

As we at Qf found, the company push to electronic documents had in place insufficient protocols to ensure the documenents were amended timely and those amendments passed expeditiously to crews.

The again being at mainline what would we know?
This was touted at mainline, the company from which J* the great hope of Qf was sporned. It was rejected by smarter people than I for the reasons explained above.

So go ahead pay for what is part of a companies operating cost, previously accepted as being part of the necessary cost of doing business!:E

[blueloo]

Adobe PDF, is as the name suggests, a portable document format, designed to give the viewer the same look/layout as the original.

It is a format, not designed to be studied off electronically.

It is a format designed to be printed, such that the original document is reproduced identically when printed.

It is not cost effective for the end user to print out X number of pages to cover an entire document suite.

It is a cheap means to cover the minimum requirements.

Sure if people are happy with it, let them have it, if not, there would surely be some requirement for the user to have an identical set of manuals that is found on the aircraft.

QANTAS has the option of paper or CD. (Nil cost either option)

The CD option covers nearly all manuals, however, it too is adobe PDF. It is hardly worlds best practice or latest technology. It is a pain in the arse to study from.

[BankAngle50]

QFinsiderSo go ahead pay for what is part of a companies operating cost, previously accepted as being part of the necessary cost of doing business!
Just like they pay for Jepps! guess thats the way it is in GA though. :yuk:

[preset]

As I said on the previous thread ......

Smaller airlines like JQ are not the only airlines heading towards entirely electronic manuals, the bigger airlines are doing it as well. For what it's worth, I agree with the previous comments regarding paper manuals being more user friendly. Being able to flip through the paper manual not only allows me to absorb more info, occasionally while flipping, I come across something else of interest that gets mentally filed away :) I definitely do not get the same result using the electronic manuals. Although it's a pain having to do amendments, I find I note the changes more effectively when I'm doing them. Having them done electronically they generally don't get noted and before someone comments that the changes can be looked up on the computer, honestly how many pilots are actually going to take the time to do that ?

[Vee Won Kutt]

New Jetstar pilot recruits are being sent a full 'paper' version of all manuals several weeks before they start training. At the end of the training they have the option to either give them back or pay $150 to keep them. If they keep the manuals there will be no ammendment service offered. All pilots will be issued regularly with CDs that are kept up-to-date. I understand that this measure will save the company something like $27k. The manuals in electronic form are quite adequate for finding a specific point of interest, but would be difficult to study for an initial endorsement.
There is no requirement for any pilot to buy the 'paper' manuals, everything seems adequate to my liking, and Jetstar save some money.
It's not perfect, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as a few of you may believe.

[Capn Bloggs]

Vee Wun Cut,

$27k? What a pathetic argument. You should be ashamed of yourself actually agreeing with this nonsense.

Alteon GIVE you a set of manuals (part of the $30k) so what's the deal with forking over $150 to keep your manuals after your training? Or are JQ now paying for the endorsement?

Preset,
:ok:

[distracted cockroach]

Same deal with Air NZ. Paper manuals for the endorsement- "training copies" that have to be returned at the end of the course.
If I'd known that there were not to be any paper manuals issued, I'd have kept the "training" ones and printed the amendments off the CD on a company printer (part of the deal of having CDs is that you can print off stuff at work if you want to)
I agree with previous comments regarding the unsuitability of the pdf format - it is a "dumb" format, in that you can't link from topic to topic, or manual to manual. The seach function is useful but overall it is far less user-friendly than proper paper manuals.
The criticsm of Jetstar for using CDs is a little unreasonable. as they are certainly not the only operator to do so. Charging for manuals is a bit rich though.
Times are changing, and not always for the better.

[Vee Won Kutt]

From what I understand Alteon don't give the trainees a set of manuals. And no - unfortunately Jetstar are not paying for the endorsement.
For the record I wasn't arguing at all just stating the rumours that I had heard and giving my opinion on the subject.
However if you want an argument: What do you mean 'be ashamed'? Are you out there fighting for me Capt Bloggs? Who is? Do you want me to fight your battles for you? I think not. Either do something about it or shut up - There is no point having a go at me or Jetstar guys about it. I would love to be part of a united pilot group in Australia, but I don't see how that can happen at this stage, especially when privileged captains like you seem happy to sit back and complain about guys like me not standing up for myself. Being a pilot is not what it used to be, and probably never will be again. However if you expect me to go out there and fight a moral crusade on behalf of every privileged pilot, I know where I would end up, and I wouldn’t be in the seat to your right – I would be lucky if I could mop a hanger floor in the back-blocks of nowhere.
Getting back to the concept of electronic manuals, I personally would prefer an electronic format - I wanted to be a pilot and not a librarian. Jetstar are doing their guys a favour. I see no reason for having a shelf full of paper manuals at home that I have to continually update. Electronic manuals are fine for swatting up on something when at home

[Cruis'in FL410]

I recently spoke with a mate upgrading to the 777 with Cathay and he was also studying via Boeing manuals on CD provided by the company!!! Not my ideal way to study, but obviously Jetstar is not the only airline "breaking new ground".....

[Capn Bloggs]

VWC,

By this statement
There is no requirement for any pilot to buy the 'paper' manuals, everything seems adequate to my liking, and Jetstar save some money.
It's not perfect, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as a few of you may believe.

you are agreeing with the JQ postion of pilots having to pay for paper manuals. That is what you should be ashamed about. JQ will save $27k. How pathetic.

Thanks for the offer, but I am quite capable of fighting my own battles.

Paper rules. I don't give a stuff about how much it costs the company.

[Vee Won Kutt]

Capt Bloggs.
Thanks for the offer, but I am quite capable of fighting my own battles.
Fine. Whatever. Seems you're happy with disunity. Don't you think it would be better if we didn't have to fight our own battles?

[max autobrakes]

The question once again for the hard of hearing and the slow of learning,
"ARE THESE CD MANUALS COMPLIANT AS PER ISO COMPLIANCY"?????
a simple yes or no will do with sufficient proof to back up the answer.
The result might surprise you. :}

[rescue 1]

Yes Max, if there is a process written around them, they will be.

[OzExpat]

What happens to an Airline that fails an ISO audit?
The same thing that happens to ANY organisation that fails an ISO audit. It looses ISO certification - and maybe a few big-spending customers as well. However, there aren't a lot of airlines that have achieved ISO certification.

I understand that Qantas Engineering had it for a few years - don't know if they still have it, since the events involving them of fairly recent times. I don't think that QF Ops has it though I could stand to be corrected on that, but I was told that they were trying hard for it several years in a row. So, if QF has had problems achieving it, what makes you think it'd be easier for any other airline?

[max autobrakes]

What about the upcoming Qantas Audit in August?
I heard the company was a bit miffed that AIPA had the audacity to ask for "observer " status on said ISO audit.
Can't have people sticking their noses in where they don't belong can we!
Hell they might ask some difficult questions, mightn't they. :eek:

[max autobrakes]

Dear Mr rescue 1 , yes you are correct , most CD manuals are acceptable.
However could you please answer for all to read, are PDF file CD issued manuals acceptable?

[max autobrakes]

Has the cat got your tongue Rescue 1? :confused: