Prestwick ATCO and ATCA positions?

[flugholm]

According to an advert I discovered recently, Glasgow Prestwick Airport (Infratil Europe) is looking for ATCOs and ATCAs. As I'm thinking of applying for the job, is anybody here that can give me more information....? Help from fellow ppruners is always welcome!

[gconatyuk]

As far as im aware Glasgow Prestwick is operated by NATS and so any ATCA positions would be advertised through the NATS careers website and there doesn't appear to be anything on there at the moment other than the general recruitment of AFCOs.

[SilentHandover]

NATS do not have the contract for ATC at Prestwick.

[gconatyuk]

In that case i think someone had better tell NATS that because according to their website they seem to think they have the contract for Prestwick and Oceanic and Glasgow Prestwick tower.

[BDiONU]

In that case i think someone had better tell NATS that because according to their website they seem to think they have the contract for Prestwick and Oceanic and Glasgow Prestwick tower.
Where is that on the site, I cannot see it here (http://www.nats.co.uk/text/78/airport_services.html)? Last I knew PIK were running Prestwick Airport but a quick web search showed it was Infratil Europe, same guys who ran Kent International.

BD

[gconatyuk]

I see what you mean now. The NATS website state that they cover 15 of the UKs major airports of which Prestwick is not listed, however, if you visit the NATS careers website and roll over the 'working environment' tab it is listed in there as:

Prestwick And Oceanic (Are Control Centre)
Glasgow (Control Tower)

http://natscareers.co.uk/indexfs.asp?id=200676

It could just be me however because i thought Glasgow only had one airport which was Glasgow Prestwick. If that is the case then i must apologise.

[BDiONU]

I see what you mean now. The NATS website state that they cover 15 of the UKs major airports of which Prestwick is not listed, however, if you visit the NATS careers website and roll over the 'working environment' tab it is listed in there as:

Prestwick And Oceanic (Are Control Centre)
Glasgow (Control Tower)

http://natscareers.co.uk/indexfs.asp?id=200676
It could just be me however because i thought Glasgow only had one airport which was Glasgow Prestwick. If that is the case then i must apologise


Prestwick Area Control Centre is not Prestwick airport, its the area control centre which controls aircraft over the whole of the Scottish FIR. The Oceanic control centre is co-located within the Prestwick Control Centre.

Glasgow airport is just that, Glasgow, not Glasgow Prestwick. Usual confusion when far away airports try and pull the wool over peoples eyes by using names which make you think they're close to the city they have added the name to the airport name. Prestwick is located quite a way South of Glasgow, about an hour on the train.

BD

[flugholm]

I'm indeed asking about Glasgow Prestwick Airport, owned by Infratil Airports Europe (of Kent International (nee Manston) and Hamburg-Lübeck (Blankensee) fame). I know about the airport-naming tricks, not least because I currently work for another one of these weird Ryanair-victims...

[PPRuNe Radar]

Glasgow airport is just that, Glasgow, not Glasgow Prestwick. Usual confusion when far away airports try and pull the wool over peoples eyes by using names which make you think they're close to the city they have added the name to the airport name.

Glasgow-Prestwick is a bit like saying Gatwick, Luton, or Stansted are London airports ;)

[Dannyboyblue]

How about London Manston?:}

DBB

[throw a dyce]

Maybe Prestwick should be named after a famous person.Liverpool (Manchester NW) has got John Lennon.
How about that famous racing driver Ayr Toon Centre. (Sorry :p )

[niknak]

Rumour has it that, allegedly, the reason is the vacancies exist, is because so many people have left since a certain person took charge, allegedly...:eek: :p

[pikman]

usual bollocks.
PIK aka Prestwick Airport (non NATS) are looking for one (or more) atcos to join their team due to the imminent departure of one or more of their atcos to NATS. This is a TWR/APR position reccomended to the less feint hearted of you out there - beleive me -I've done this job and they are a damn fine team doing a difficult job in less than ideal circumstances.

[NO 7]

Pikman

Would you care to expand on those circumstances?

[OLDBOOT]

That explains the ATCO position(s).

Any info re the ATCA and ATEs? Have they been offered better contracts by NATS too?

Interesting - as they say!

[VP8]

Anyone know what the pay scales are for ATCA's??

VEEPS

[PPRuDe]

This damn fine team has been led by how many SATCOs since NATS left?

Are the aforementioned less than ideal circumstances a result of frequent changes of manager?

Q1 How many ATCOs have left to go to NATS and how many have just left?
Q2 How many ATCAs have left to go to NATS and how many have just left?
Q3 How many ATCAs have been sponsored by PIK to ratings?

[angusmunros]

Q1 a few/none
Q2 not many/one or two
Q3 quite a few
:eek: :eek: :* :hmm: :mad: :} :rolleyes: ;)

[NO 7]

Angus - can you give figures since Infratil took over?

How many SATCOs have held the post?

How many fully rated ATCOs have resigned in that period? Were they replaced by fully rated ATCOs?

How many ATCAs have resigned in the same period?

How many ATCAs have had company sponsored courses?

[Conway Club]

Niknak, allegedly you may be right. But, allegedly so is pikman. They are a very fine team but, allegedly, they are being totally let down by the management team.... allegedly! As for pay Veeps, for the ACTAs it can only be described as abysmal. Nothing like the rates that NATS offer and considering the knowledge the ATCAs have and some of the tasks they have to complete, it is v.poor. PPRuDe, begs the question as to why there have been so many managers! CC

[angusmunros]

EGPK probably on a par with quite a few other regionals; ups 'n downs, grass is greener etc. but i think deffo on the up in all depts!:confused: :} :\ :eek: :) :cool: :{ :p :cool: :8 :ooh: :suspect: :uhoh: !

[off watch]

@ PPRuDe
4 GM's & 6 SATCO's
You ask if the aforementioned less than ideal circumstances are a result of frequent changes of manager? Probably more like the frequent changes of manager are a result of the less than ideal circumstances !
Also:
Q1 : 3 / 0
Q2 : 2 / 2
Q3 : 7

The ATE vacancy is, I believe, for a pending retirement.
Your point is , caller ? ;-)

[Grompyoldgit]

To answer your questions...

Q1 Three fully valid ATCOs in the past 5 years have gone to NATS .. one extra to SERCO= 4 in the past 7 years.
Q2 ATCAs .. ONE has been recruited by NATS recently for a controller coarse..hence the vacancy... plus one not making the grade.. :( = 2
Q3 off watch is correct ... 7 ATCAs have been "promoted" to controllers and are mostly fully valid and very happy at EGPK through company sponsered courses. Lucky people :)

The SATCO Question

One did the job for 3.5 years and went on to become an SRG inspector
One did the job for 2 years and ran the controlled airspace application and then left to become an ATC consultant !
One is currently in place and has been for the past two years !

So the company cant be that bad can they ?

angusmunros.. what you say is totally correct.. :)

The ATCA positions are not because of pay BTW

Conway Club .. you talk b******s ... :) ... PK is not a NATS unit so the comparison is meaningless ..

No 7 ... see above....

OldBoot... NO ..one ATE is retiring .. one ATCA got a NATS course

Pikman ... you are as usual correct :) pm me

Niknak .. you are talking rubbish.. I know this is a rumour network but really.... "Rumour has it that, allededly.. " Give us all a break mate !!

Anyway hope that sorts things out .. I'm off to Growl at someone.. :)

Love you all

Grompyoldgit

[NO 7]

Sorry to disagree Grumpy but my info is 4 SATCOs.

The current incumbent for one year.
Previous for about a year and who resigned and left ATC.
Previous for about a year who also resigned and left ATC.
Previous I believe went to SRG for a while.

How accurate is the rest of your information?

[Grompyoldgit]

No 7

The present is coming up on two years including the hand over period of nearly 4 months

Your right there was a fourth who was in the job for a year, complete waiste of space by all accounts, before he left ATC altogether

There has been a lot of change at Preswick, what with is it three owners, PIK Stagecoach and now Infratil over the past years but things seem to be settling down nicely.

And Very :)

Grompy

[PPRuDe]

Grumpy

Your response leads me to the obvious questions, why are good people still leaving what is one of the fastest expanding airports in Britain

What is the company attitude to
PENSIONS ?
LOSS OF LICENCE INSURANCE ?
TRADE UNIONS ?

Are the support staff being renumerated fairly for their task (qualified met observers)

How do you bond a fine team when the ATSA and ATCO rosters are so different..does the implementation of a roster that introduced 3 night working and 12 hour shifts indicate Management style or is it just a way of motivating Staff

Is the SATCO part of the team..i believe only two out of the last 4 were valid even though vacancy notices had this requirement If they are an integral part of the numbers to cover breaks then the ATCOs would be working short for periods.

Reference to one SATCO being a total waste of space shocks me, how was this person recruited in the first place and why were they left in post to do so much damage

or was this mitigated by having a SATCO deputy SATCO, 5 X Watch Managers 5 X deputy watch Managers Training Co-ordinator and Senior ATCO on Duty to share the chiefs wisdom to the couple of the Indians that remain

Airport Management like to promote the cheap and cheerful airport...what investment in ATC or major operational equipment has been made in the last few years Is the SATCO a victim getting less managerial support

Are staff inhibited from complaining about conditions by draconion clauses in their contracts that effectively prevent staff or ex staff doing anything but breathe...its all commercially sensitive ..after all its easier to spell commercial than rendition Pure Dead Brilliant

PPRuDe

[Conway Club]

Grumpy, unfortunately, IMHO you are wrong. IIRC the job/responsibilities/hours worked of ATCAs at PK or a non-area NATS unit are very similar so the comparision I made was totally justified. Talking b*****s? Additionally, your answer to Q2 needs clarfying. I have been led to believe that 2 have left in the past couple of years and one that leaves towards the end of the year. Q3. Seven ATCAs to ATCO, perhaps but over what time scale? Certainly not in the past few years. But anyway, at least you had the decency to correct your mistake from the original snipe.http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif As to very happy? It depends on who you speak to!

PPRuDe has made a very astute comment concerning the rosters, from what I've heard/know management style has lead to some quite interesting events. There is trade union representation in the twr but membership is not 100%. When qualified, the met observers do receive additional pay. As for pure dead brilliant.............don't get me started!

CC

[NO 7]

Grompy

Again my information differs on ATCA resignations. 4 in past 18 months with two more leaving as you say. I make that 6 in two years. Out of interest what's that as a percentage? How many ATCAs do SRG suggest is the minimum? ? How many are currently on the roster?

Would you like to say how many of the 7 ATCAs who have been sponsored to ratings have happened over the last two years? I think that we are looking at 7 in the history of PIK, Stagecoach and Infrtil rather than recently.

[PPRuDe]

GRUMPY
I think i misread your response qnd apologise. to clarify the situation in my own mind was the SATCO referred to as a waste of space the same individual that rumour has it was subject to sustained harassment during his tenure..rumour has it that staff were interviewed in groups and the finger pointed at ATS...was this cloud ever lifted , was there closure ,if not why not..i believe the waste of space is very successful in his chosen business
My declaration of shock was intended for the ATCO who as rumour has it after demonstrating commitment to the unit by a prolonged absence and subsequent resignation was then appointed to SATCO.
This must be without precedence and begs the question what standards do this airport look for in their management SATCO is a key post and requires technical expertise, good people handling skills the negotiation skills to get the best for the team regardless of resources. The ability to lead and improve team performance and motivate to make work something to look forward to.
you may not like it but in the ever changing environment of safety management, litigation and employment law you require a candidate that has had formal mamagement training.
To appoint anything less is an insult to the profession an insult to all the good guys and girls out there who work hard during their careers and a great let down for the team
I have often seen the phrase creep in at airfield "we are not a NATS unit you know "often used as an excuse for accepting second best.NATS is not perfect by any means but they do have high standards and there is nothing wrong in aspiring to reach and maintain or excede them
Good heavens is that the time...thank goodness for time differences i am off to the pub
cheers PPRuDE

[Banana Split]

I see what you mean now. The NATS website state that they cover 15 of the UKs major airports of which Prestwick is not listed, however, if you visit the NATS careers website and roll over the 'working environment' tab it is listed in there as:

Prestwick And Oceanic (Are Control Centre)
Glasgow (Control Tower)

http://natscareers.co.uk/indexfs.asp?id=200676

It could just be me however because i thought Glasgow only had one airport which was Glasgow Prestwick. If that is the case then i must apologise.

just where in the UK do you come from? how could you possibly not know about Glasgow airport:ugh: :rolleyes:

[Grompyoldgit]

PPRuDe,

Firstly thank you for the appology :) .. Perhaps you did miss read.. Perhaps you didn't... I hope you enjoyed your beer...Perhaps you did... Hic .. :)

Pensions
Q1.....Pensions.. Stakeholder ......company up to 6% depending on the employee contribution.
Loss of Licence..
Q2 £50+K ..Non Nats industry standard I believe these days ?
Trade Uniions...
Q3 Both TGWU and Prospect are recognised by Infratil and each departmant has one or more representatives. New pay deal in place through their hard work :)
Q4 .. They were payed seperately, but appently, since the introduction of standard ATCA pay scales, by the New SATCO, and from research from other non NATS units, the pay scale has been readjusted to include MET Observer Qualifications and is on par with other NON Nats Adme/APR units..... apparently :)
Q5... Yes, .... apparently,... the SATCO IS part of the team, and went through partial Radar training that was interupted by the short notice G8 Summit. No she is not currently valid because, apparently, she is too busy sorting out the crap that other SATCOs conveniently "forgot" to or "avoided", doing :)
Q6 Sorry didn't mean to shock you.. ask ..
Q7 "Was it mitigated by .." er No..... Appently didn't need mitigated in the first place.


Conway and No7 i'll get back to you later..... you both have good points and concerns :)..and are both partially correct. :) ......as i am in your eyes partially incorrect

Right now i'm getting Grompy :) so i'm off to ma kip ..

You all keep well and stay safe

Grompy xxx

[tubthumper]

I know a few of the staff at Prestwick, and it seems that, management gripes aside, there is a genuine intention by the whole of the team to work for the greater good, i.e. the continued growth of the airport. Remember, growth is painful, and when something grows as quickly as Prestwick has over the last five or so years, everyone is gonna feel it a bit. There are those there who talk about "being in for the long term", because of an optimistic view of the airport's future. I say, if you fancy giving Prestwick a go, pop yer CV in the mail, and good luck. They've had a copy of mine for some time now....:ok:

[bottom rung]

About two years, isn't it Tubby.....:}

[tubthumper]

Yep. Still not working there, though....:E

[PPRuDe]

Grumpy thanks for the response it is good to see the tone of your post and that of subsequent ones is generally supportive of Management and recognises the difficult transition into busier days. I think Prestwicks pure dead brilliant with an exciting future if the airport as a whole pulls together
.
Get rid of that Branding slogan at whatever cost if only to demonstrate that Airport Management listen and care.

Present owners may not be aware of the huge number of people in SW Scotland who provided support in its time of need...their reward a slogan that many folk find offensive. what was more damaging was a Television report showing a spokesperson and a Lady who had organised a petition calling for a rethink....I dont think I have everseen a less customer focussed style with the airport spokesperson talking through through the woman in a manner reminicent of a school bully,

This analogy is worth remembering since this style of management at one stage seemed to prevail...Ever try a stick and carrot approach in ATC when the donkey doesnt like carrots..hey stop ,these donkeys are intelligent people who deserve respect They can come up some very creative and painful uses for a carrot.

You can lose all the goodwill at the poimt of contact with the customer and that means internal customers too. Perhaps this is one of the issues that was left by the previous SATCOs as too difficult ..its simple really there are one or two individuals with a reputation for having abrasive and unhelpful attitude on phone or email..that is costing the company money.
Returning to the thread your comments on SATCO proficiency puzzle me...training interrupted by the G8 why? it seems like a good time to train ..real aeroplanes...what was so complex about getting a bunch of aircraft on the ground and parking them for a week ...easier than the average day of downwind departures.

Anyway shoulnt be any crap to deal with rumour has it the infamous dog left with the previou SATCO and all previous SATCOs were housetrained

On previous post you maintain the SATCO was in post for two years..surely there was a year before G8 popped up and a year since if your info is correct.....time enough

For what its worth i do not think The SATCO should be valid at a unit that size but as long as they are required to part of the roster then it should be given priority

Cheers
PPRuDe

[Grompyoldgit]

PPRude ..

Ive just posted a very lenghy reply to ..No7 .. Conway .. and yourself about issues raised and it seems to have gone missing.. Grrr
You raise some very healthy and well argued points.. some of your comments i know nothing about.. some i do.. but for now im off to ma kip..

Please dont get ME started on that slogan either .. :)

Goodnight

Grompy.. one day older git :)

[Pure Dead Brilliant]

And whit's wrang wi' the slogan, by the way ?

[Grompyoldgit]

PPRude,

"infamous dog" looool :)

Have you ANY idea just how much work would have to be done by all deparments airport wide to stage such an event as the G8. Not quite as simple as landing and parking a few aeroplanes me thinks. New ATC procedures to be written, approved and staff trained.. WIP airport wide to repair/paint remote aprons.. security systems to be upgraded...huge efforts to ensure all the correct staff are in the correct place at the correct time and all correctly trained... meeting after meeting after meeting. The logistics must have been mind boggling. And since, as I understand it, the whole event went off without a hitch I think we all as professionals should give all the people involved, especially for such a short notice major event, a collective round of applause:).
Meanwhile the usual work of running ATC, producing SMS procedures etc etc is piling up in the background.

You asked earlier what investment had the company made to ATC...

Brand new high tech fully digital voice recording system. The first of its type in the UK I understand. Apparently its so good NATS engineers came down to check it out with a view to recommending it to NATS.... very expensive too.
Brand new flat panel LCD high definition full colour Radar displays.. currently on test and awaiting approval.. not cheap
Brand new high speed radar diplay processors.. currently on test and awaiting approval... not cheap
Brand new Copperchase software and strip printers.. not cheap
New CCTV monitors to allow ATCOs a view of anywhere on the airfield... on test.
Newly painted and kitted out rest room for the staff.
New DME shed built to allow for upgrade to dual channel.

The list goes on ..

In the not too distant future the possibility of a digital voice switch comms system.

As for your comments about management having the correct training to manage I could not agree more..

I understand that the company provides training to managers in HR, Diciplinary, EDR,PGS.. etc and from their web site 40 of the AFS and ATC have just completed The Instiute of Line Managers Level 3 sponsored by the company through Ayr College, with Level 4 planned shortly.

To my eyes that seems to be the actions of a company that is attempting to provide the necessary training and investment for its staff. Only time will tell :)

No 7 .. I'm led to believe that the other two ATCAs you refer to were infact both qualified twin rated pilots, that when offered the chance to fly for Loganair and Soltire jumped at the chance..wouldnt you, nothing to do with" abizmal" pay terms or conditions.

Cheers peeps

Grompy

[tubthumper]

A fully kitted-out rest room, you say? That sounds nice. I bet it's got a telly, and comfy sofas, and everything....

[Pure Dead Brilliant]

You should know, tubby, as you spend most of your shifts in it !
:ok:

[Visual Strip]

Aw, you're spoiling his fun!

[PPRuDe]

Grumpy

Thank you for your comprehensive response, it paints a picture of a caring management investing in its people If this is the case then the future looks good and the shareholders can expect a good return

The investment in equipment is impressive and most of this is still under test/evaluation which indicates to me the investment is new...a result of recent management changes

I am intrigued now that i think about it,

how much of it was as a result of old equipment that had to be replaced as it could no longer be supported how many items are a result of the regulator requiring a problem to be addressed..CCTV to see the whole airfield..a tower controllers dream ?..who wanted it the controllers, the regulator the G8 security bods It begs the question as to why it has taken so long..ten years perhaps

Nice kit..does it include radar recorders

Do tell me about the new DME hut that was flight checked recently...do tell me it is only a rumour that it was hit by jet blast and moved, or did it fall through the hole in the SMS procedure...it would be very funny had not the dangers of jet blast been documented in the video made for TV at Prestwick...and followed a short time later by an alleged incident with a light aircraft, (suppose someone is writing a procedure for an offser for it You are very right to applaudeThe G8 effort which was an outstanding example of the airport as a whole..pulling together..

YES i have a very great appreciation of the amount of work involved in an exercise of this nature...in fact you might be amazed at the areas that i have experience in

That is why i fail to see why there was so much additional work for ATC most of the problems were the domaine of other sections..yes you would need to knit it together and i asssume that GMC and second radar procedures were off the shelf with appropriate procedures and approvals already in place.
With the numbers involved it should have been straightforward..Prestwick is no stranger to the unusual..

meeting after meeting achieves very little

Thanks again for the response i am a little busy today but will be back soon to pose the question HR human resources is there any humanity in your HR department

I will have to close now
best wishes

PPRuDe

[angusmunros]

hmm,
i think tubthumper was right in an earlier post, certainly with regard to the initial request of this thread as to whether to apply for a post or not.
Go for it! nothing ventured nothing gained; live a little! 'bout time I did!
As for all or some of the rest of the rhetoric, make of it as you will. just remember: Pprune, particularly the ru,ne bit.
P.S. from what i've heard, they've got a reaaally coool teaaam of guys 'n gals (sorry Jimmy) workin' their asses off for the greater good and not a lot else!!
:ooh: :eek: :cool:

[Grompyoldgit]

Jimmy fell off his seat laughing ..... meanwhile all the sheep and goats ran for their lives off the Munros ... oh dear .. one was called Angus :)

[Pure Dead Brilliant]

The sheep were ok Grompy - it was a sunny day & Angus forgot to put his wellies on the bus !

[NO 7]

Brings a whole new meaning to No 7 - time to change user name? :eek:
BTW - a reply to the original title is BOHICA

[PPRuDe]

Angus

Dont you get upset by Pure Dead Brilliant after all its rhetoric, make of it as you will.

PPRuDe

[NO 7]

Have a look at this before submitting your CV
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235011
And it WAS filmed at EGPK:eek:

[PPRuDe]

re .Prestwick video
A classic example of how the use of covert cameras in the workplace can make good staff turn Ugly ..if you consider youself still good looking then you probably have not been exposed to it yet..or have you ......Keep looking in the mirror ,the bin.the exit sign

source the Idiots Guide to Management...section 42 management styles,the good the bad and the ugly

PPRuDe

[Eric T Cartman]

PPRuDe
If they took that with covert cams, they put 'em in the wrong place. That was filmed in the MAC office, which is now the Ops Office @ the end of the Central Pier by Stand 5. LOL