Skydiving ops questions.

[Over and gout]

I have a few questions regarding tandem skydiving ops legal issues. Perhaps someone could shed some light...

Why is a tandem jumper who has no skydiving experience not considered a "fare paying passenger" when you think of how much money they are giving the operator?
Surely they are entitled to a safe ride up in an aircraft which is registered & maintained in the charter category with a CPL holder flying and operating with an AOC & chief pilot?
I know that they are paying for the jump not the ride, but what if they chicken out on the way up & don't jump? Would this not make the flight a Charter flight?

I have been pondering as I was just talking to a guy who flies a skydiving plane with a PPL yet the operator is running a commercial business advertising and selling tandem jumps.

This is not a skydiving ops bash by the way, I'm just a little confused by it....:ok:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

If you go and read CAR 206, it is not defined as a commercial operation, for the purposes of Civil Aviation.

There are many many industries that use aircraft, that do not rate a mention in CAR 206, they are therefore private operations, some mining companies using their own aircraft for example.

This topic has been done to death, try a search on the topic.

The parachuting industry "self regulates", CASA has approved the Australian Parachuting Federation (APF) to oversee. CASA decided many years ago that flying schools, Ag, Charter and RPT was their core business, and many other non mainstream fields would be more suited to self regulation ( still under the basic aviation legislative frame work, pilots licences, 100 hourly services etc etc ).

There is a move at present by many operators to apply for an AOC and having the box and dice, so to speak.

Why, you ask, well for the parachuting industry the APF is a very significant expense and by some operators there has been claims of nepotism.

That said, pilots who work for free are scum.

[John Walters]

Congratulations Left Handed!
It is about time CASA took control of parachuting, or at least made sure that the APF run their organisation to CASA requirements, that has not happened for years. How can they be considered non commercial or charter after all they are taking fare paying passengers. Whether they bring them back or not should not matter. The public still get into an aircraft and take off not aware that the aircraft may not be up to standard.

CASA have a responsibility to ensure the paying public are protected and are flying in aircraft that are maintained to commercial standards and are operated as a commercial operation.

I seem to recall another thread some time ago which refered to the parachute operation at Barwon Heads using a navajo with engines and airframe out of time, surely this in not responsible and the paying public need better protection from cowboy operators.

With parachuting self regulation has not worked and the controllers seem reluctant to regulate those operators who break the rules.

It is time CASA made sure that all parachute operations have an AOC, commercial pilots and aircraft maintained to commercial requirements, for the protection of all, parachutists and the fare paying tandem public.

[ContactMeNow]

Not braging, but the company I work for are very much for a "safe aircraft", we operate ours under the airwork category, even though we can operate under private (I think). The aircraft is always maintained to the highest of standards and if there is something wrong with it, it goes straight to the LAME. The boss only wants CPLs flying it and as a result he pays for this.

Although there is no requirement for an AOC I think over time CASA will put two and two together and realise that some serious $$$ can be made if all PJE require AOCs (its a sad world, but its only a matter of time :{ )

From what I know the APF would not have a clue what to look for in an aeroplane and with their on the spot audits the last time they checked the place I work at they didnt even look at the plane nor did they question the pilot!

Cheers
CMN :ok:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

CMN,

you input is quite important, it highlights the reality of the parachuting industry, is populated by the same calibre of operators a GA, some dodgy some extraordinary.

Earlier this year i worked a little for a parachute company in Cairns, in my opinion they are far more professional with better equipment than most GA companies.

These companies moving to CASA are doing so ( at present ) of their own free will.

The APF have put some very practicle limits and training requirments on these operators, far more than is required by CASA. I believe the Pilot representation in this organisation has been very well orchestrated.

Those going to CASA are doing it because it is cheaper and decision making processes made by this organisation are open to public scrutiny, who would have thought ?

[victor two]

Left handed rock thrower,

I just think you need to revise your attitude on jump pilots a bit too. Lots of skydive pilots fly for free because they enjoy the flying, it keeps them current and they enjoy the social side of the club.

Why would that make them scum?

Walk your backside down to a skydiving club and call a recreational jump pilot "scum" to his face, because he is doing something he enjoys and I think you would find your opinionated head punched in rather quickly.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

How can flying for free be OK.

Parachuting is an industry that has a very high income, do you think the jump masters work for free ?, the answer is no.

Opinionated, most definately, anyone who works in an industry that is profit orientated and thinks they are not entitled to a piece of the action, considering they have invested a significant amount of money to be there, in additon to being scum are two kinds of stupid.

Pilots working for free ( especially CPL or ATPL ), do we really want this to be the fad, next thing you know pilots will be paying to fly a companies freight or passengers, oh hang on, that is already happening.

"opinionated head punched in", ???, are you serious ?. That's it, behind the bike shed after school.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Jezus Wept! You lot should stick to jumping off bridges and cliffs and stay well clear of aeroplanes!
Ever wonder why there is no such thing as "just a drop plane" for the armed services?
Get out.... stay out.... and take your stinking hooch with you!

bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz

[Gnd Power]

Although there is no requirement for an AOC I think over time CASA will put two and two together and realise that some serious $$$ can be made if all PJE require AOCs ....


Something like a Cresco or a Van could carry 7 tandems and a couple of camera operators. At the rate of $220 per 10 000’ drop ($270 @ 14000) those aircraft are grossing up to $5 000 + per flying hour. (Not including the cost of a DVD of the deed at around $100).

Your right, that sure is some serious $$$$.

[Over and gout]

Something like a Cresco or a Van could carry 7 tandems and a couple of camera operators. At the rate of $220 per 10 000’ drop ($270 @ 14000) those aircraft are grossing up to $5 000 + per flying hour. (Not including the cost of a DVD of the deed at around $100).
Your right, that sure is some serious $$$$.


Which is what made me think of this topic to begin with. Some tandem skydiving places appear to be commercial operations in every sense except the pilot and aircraft. Perhaps there needs to be a clearer line between a skydiving club/school and an adventure-tourism type place......

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

O&G,

If you take the emotive out of this topic and refer to the earlier information, you'll see it is not the way you think, Refer CAR 206.

With the legislation in its present form, Parachuting is a private operation, this is no longer open to interpretation, CASA has tested the legislation and decided it to be PVT Cat.

Where does "Adventure / Tourism" rate a mention in the Legislation.

[Icarus2001]

Perhaps there needs to be a clearer line between a skydiving club/school and an adventure-tourism type place...... The line is there and it is very clear. The point is that those of us who are on the AOC CHTR/RPT side of the line believe that it was drawn in the wrong spot. Clearly even some operators running parachute ops do to as they have decided to either only employ CPL holders or go the whole way and get an AOC.

Victor 2
Walk your backside down to a skydiving club and call a recreational jump pilot "scum" to his face, because he is doing something he enjoys and I think you would find your opinionated head punched in rather quickly.So by your rationale if a person is doing something they enjoy then it is okay if everyone else around them is making money from the operation but them? The pilot is exposed to liability without the benefit of protection.

I tell you what, I quite like driving and I like people, I might go and offer to drive a taxi for free on weekends, just for fun. I will still charge fares but I will ensure that they all go to the taxi plate owner. Better still I could do it for no fare, this would make the other taxi drivers very happy as I would be lighteneing their load somewhat. What do you think Victor 2?

[victor two]

Icarus.....I think that if you really enjoyed driving and meeting people so much that you are happy to do it and it gives you pleasure then I would day congratulations, enjoy your drive. Be safe.

According to lefthand, any pilot that flies a jump plane and does not demand payment for it is "scum". The reality is that there are many many men and women doing that every weekend because they enjoy it, it gives them pleasure and it is a valuable contribution to the industry overall. I assume then the guy who answers the phone, the lady who takes club bookings, the guys who happily clean the planes at the end of the weekend, the girls who pack the canopies are all scum too unless they stand there with their hands out screaming for money all day too are they?

I think that in your own angry and biased minds, you fail to realise that without all those "scum", there would be no industry at all.

Lets also not forget that there are no shortage of guys and girls who happily rocked up and flew all weekend for little or no money and went on to great careers in flying. It was their big start and they savoured every day of it.

Works both ways sometimes.

Ever heard of making a voluntary contribution to something that you believe in?

[Gnd Power]

It seems that we may be talking about two different operations here, one being the club skydiving that runs on a shoe string and the odd sausage sizzle whilst the other caters to the tourist/thrill seeker/backpaker market, ala "the tandem" and in doing so has the ability of pulling around $5000 per hour per aircraft.

It would seem that big business maybe piggybacking on the small club level guys.

Anyway, can someone explain to me how a flying organization (tandem jumps) can pull figures in the area of $5 0000 gross per flying hour and not be considered a commercial operation?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

I think $5,000 an hour is quite far from reality.

from your $270 tandem jump price, commission to booking agent is between 20 and 35%, then the facilities; jump masters are usually paid around the $35-50 per jump, $20-30 for the Camera man, bus, bus driver ( at the bigger commercial mobs, airways charges, Pilots wages, fuel and .3-.7 flight time in aircraft.

It is more like $950-1050 per hour ( roughly for a Cresco ), Caravan would have to be $1200 per hour , other wise it would not be worth it ( replayments, insurance etc etc ).