What Constitutes "Scud Running?"

[Sunfish]

Fridays flight from Kerang to Moorabbin was "interesting". I'm still trying to work out what went right and what I was missing from a low time VFR point of view.

I I left Kerang about Ten AM after a band of cloud went through and it was CAVOK. There was cloud at about 1500 feet approaching Mangalore, yet the jumpers at Bridgewater were doing fine. I diverted to Bendigo about 20 miles out of Mangalore because the sky ahead looked ......dark. Sky behind me and to the west was OK, I know because I was checking to make sure the back door wasn't getting slammed on me.

Cloud dropped to about 1300 feet and getting into Bendigo was interesting, couldn't maintain 1000 (a zero was missing)AGL circuit height. Stopped for an hour, rang Moorabbin and it was CAVOK there. I could have snuck back north to Maryborough (or even Bridgewater) if necessary. Pushed on to Ballarat in light rain just under cloud base at about 2000 feet. Tops of mountains in cloud, but vis was 5k and there were plenty of paddocks underneath if necessary.

Past Ballarat finally saw the You Yangs in the distance and completed trip with blue skies and thirty knot tailwind.

Trouble is, I think I'm missing something. I'm also not sure if the wx would have made it possible to go "on top". Comments from the more experienced invited.

[ernestkgann]

100aggle in the cct, that's getting the job done!;)

[Capt Fathom]

Don't get conned by a report of CAVOK. There may be a high overcast above 5000'. If you go on-top, you may get stuck there. Also, 5K vis may be legal, but it doesn't give you any room for errors!
vis was 5k and there were plenty of paddocks underneath if necessary
If your reasoning for continuing was because you had paddocks underneath, I would suggest returning to where you just departed and order another round of latte's and sandwiches!

[hoss]

Ernie K G your namesake would be proud of you:ok: . Personally, I define 'scud-running' as being down in the fog doing my best to have a good look around.

Lattes and sandwiches, whats this industry coming to;) .

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well done Sunfish...nothing wrong with your logic or practice. there was a time when 'scud running' was an accepted practice. The biggest risk factor that stopped it was power lines.

In my view cloudbase is less important that vis....you can have unlimited visibilty below a 200' cloudbase and safely fly for miles that way...3ks under a 1000' cloudbase is often less safe.

Weather can be explored as long as you have at least two of daylight/fuel/escape route on your side.

Personally my scud running days were left behind in PNG because of powerlines and mobile phone towers...also local knowledge. In PNG we used to fly along valleys with near zero forward vis by watching the river underneath the aircraft...stay over the river and you cannot hit anything. I used to fly out to Umboi Island at 100' in the wet season in near zero forward vis by watching the water underneath and my flight instruments..I knew I was getting close when the fringing reef slide underneath and my track was designed to bring me onto the coast at a very slight angle so I could turn and follow it to the airstrip...I knew I was on left base when a stone jetty slide underneath me and would then turn into a small bay fully configured and spot the grass strip and land...never above 100' for the 60 odd miles since leaving the coast...forward vis was sometimes as low as a few hundred meters:E

But there were no man made obstructions in PNG to spoil your day. In Australia true scud running is deadly dangerous. What you were doing was just exploring the practical limitations of VFR flight.:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

But there were no man made obstructions in PNG to spoil your day And thank God for that!!

Chuckles; As mentioned previously in another thread; The technique used to be used quite effectively 'tracking coastal to Kerema, navigating by visual reference to the tops of the coconut palms.'
Not sure now but was'nt it you who taught me that method?:ok:

[rmcdonal]

When cleaning the undercarriage includes removing bits of tree then your scud running.:} Probably not the best way to fly.:eek:

[djpil]

Sunfish, just a few of questions at this stage.
I assume that was a typo - 1000 ft AGL not 100AGL?
You said the cloud base at Ballarat was 2000 - AGL?
You were renting the aeroplane so it didn't matter if you left it in a paddock?
"on top" did you also ask yourself what happens if an engine failure?

[Woomera]

It should be mentioned, one can scud run in PNG at 100 AGL - and require oxygen to remain "legal"!

:} :}

[Capt Fathom]

It should be mentioned, one can scud run in PNG at 100 AGL - and require oxygen to remain "legal"!
:} :}
...and require oxygen to remain "legal"! ...but only when not smoking! :\

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hmmm don't think so pinky.

My pre GPS 'little trick' for negating weather in the Gulf Province was resetting my altimeter on departure Kerema to -100'....then I would fly heading and time to various strips and when the wrist watch indicated it was 'time' I would descend down knowing that the altimeter was giving me height above the trees...when cloud starts turning green level off and the airstrip was right in front of you...worked a treat...due allowance made for the Aird Hills near Kikori of course...almost invariably you'd pop out 1/2 a mile or so from your desto at about 100' above the trees.:ok:

On short sectors up to about 20 minutes or so you could fly to that level of accuracy....on really long sectors, an hour or so, out into the Western Province I used to do 'deliberate error' nav. Hdg well (say 5 degrees) to one side or the other (usually the downwind side) and on estimate turn 90 degrees and fly until you spot the airstrip. You'd be amazed how well that actually works.

[pakeha-boy]

Part 135 ops always have operations mins,generally around 500-2....ie 500ft ceiling and 2 miles...anything below those mins is regarded as scud running,and since those mins are in the eye of the beholder or the local fed,even if "reported".....

Before "minimums" were established for operations,as long as you didnt hit anything when the weather was ****e,then you were scud running....dont believe me???/ ask anyone who has flown in Alalska for a long period of time...scud -running was the standard operationing specs

[SCE to Aux]

Good post Sunfish. Try to get hold of a copy of "weatherwise" put out by CASA when their Safety Promotion people actually did things. The thing it will do for you is to help you to recognise visual clues associated with deteriorating conditions. By the sound of it, you've been making good decisions when faced with poor weather, the trick is to develop an understanding of the things to look out for when deciding if it's safe to go on or better to land or turn back.

Glad you had a good trip to Arkaroola, one of my favourite flying destinations. Australian GA would be in much better shape if there were more people like you, renting aeroplanes and getting out to see the country.

[Sunfish]

Djpl, yes it was a typo (1000AGL)

Closer to 3000 Alt above Ballarat. The cloud (stratus) appeared to "taper" with the lowest in the East towards KIM and progressively got higher as you went further West. When I arrived at Bendigo it was about 1300 Alt. When I left it was closer to 2000. At all times I had "escape routes" North and further West. It is worth noting that while I was doing this, Bridgewater was conducting parachute Ops because I heard them, presumably in good weather. I refuelled at Bendigo and my worst case escape was to go all the way back to Swan Hill or Mildura if necessaary.

As for paddocks, I ALWAYS select a paddock or landing area ALL THE TIME I'm flying. I'll even deviate a little (fly all over the sky) to be closer to open country sometimes.

To put it another way, I'd much prefer having to answer "why did you put the plane in a paddock?" then "why didn't you put the plane down in a paddock?" in exactly the same vein as the old "Go around" question.

As for going "On Top" it didn't occur to me until well after the flight, I'm curious as to whether anyone regularly uses such a procedure because I agree with you regarding engine failure above cloud.

[VH-XXX]

You could have always tried the "Tim Baker" (of CASA) method and cracked open a beer and come back the day after. - Refer to CASA's weather-wise CD for that where Tim Baker clearly condones "under stress of weather" through the Kilmore gap into the north of Melbourne.

Over the top is always good and if you get there and can't see the airport, try the trusted DDTL Approach. (Dive Down and Take a Look) !

[M.25]

As chimbu briefly mentioned above, a low cloudbase with good vis can be done safely, and a high cloudbase (above LSALT) with reduced vis (still 5k's or more) can also be done safely. As soon as I encounter a low cloud base with low vis alarm bells start ringing. The last place that anyone wants to be is at low level with their nose pressed to the perspex trying to spot the bases of the hills.:uhoh:

VFR on top should be treated with caution also. As mentioned above a CAVOK forecast or metar could still mean that the aerodrome is overcast at 5000ft or more. It is handy if you can speak to someone at your destination before taking off, although their report should not be taken as fact. (I have had some very interesting reports!) Also keep in mind that the weather can change quite quickly. Another thing to keep in mind when on top is that whilst you are happily cruising along at 8500 in 8/8 blue, the weather can be deteriorating below the base quite rapidly.... and you wouldn't be the wiser.:eek:

[djpil]

No problems then, Sunfish. Good to see that the paddock was Plan D not Plan B. Perhaps at my talk later this month I'll tell about a couple of my experiences with scud running in another country. Up around 10,000 ft or a bit lower thru a canyon and Plan B was indeed the paddock but with that aeroplane and that terrain I knew I'd be on my way again as soon as the weather improved. In a different part of the country I knew to stay up high - towers several thousand feet AGL must be avoided. Around here my plan is very much like your own, although I would've stayed the night at Bendigo rather than go back to Mildura.

[troppo]

i remember an article that someone wrote for NZ Wings about flying in PNG about 15 years ago that said anything down to 50' AGL was 'ok' and that anything below 50' was 'marginal';) ...i always remembered this until an ex Talair Chief Pilot told me...'no one has ever died up here at 15000'..if you get into trouble IF it and climb...both words of wisdom until you get into trouble in a heavy/old 206 that won't make 15000, but either way a mixture of these two saw me right :ok:

[troppo]

oh yeah...tallking about dead sticking it when you are on top...there were two brothers in PNG in my time, one of which, when this happened, hit nearest waypoint on the garmin 100 and dead sticked it to a safe landing on the nearest strip with zero vis and cloud base...
now that's an urban myth...:eek:

[troppo]

now I'm on a roll and the heinekens are kicking in...the above mentioned CP in PNG said to me after hairy take off in the Sandaun/East Sepik Province...'I think we are heavy....' you could hear the branches cracking and the foliage in the undercarriage was impressive...He was holding the controls level to get rid of the stall warning. I had to change my undies..but his words 'you're enuff shags' made all the difference....:E
AOS if you are reading, I feel priviledged and honoured to have your name in my log book...what I learnt in a short period of time saved my life on more than one occassion:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ahhh good old 'Bones'...one of the best CPs ever!!

His name appears in my logbook more than once when he was CP of Talair.

Did he tell you about the time a failed pitot heat lead to a stall/spin in a BE200...he spun in IMC into a valley, recovered in IMC and got visual in the pullout and flew away...he was definately 'enough'. :ok:

[Ratshit]

The Rat used to scud run with the best in the land of Oz and the Long White Cloud, but a close encounter with a phone tower west of Townsville scared the crap right out of me.

Now I just file IFR above the height of Kosiosko - everywhere!

[ContactMeNow]

When CMN was a VERY inexperienced pilot he was on a nav on his way back to YSBK from Wagga. The flight was great until the western side of the Great Dividing Range, overcast with low cloud. Silly me decided to "press on". And find a nice valley to fly through. The top of this valley could not be seen and there was plenty of water in it at the time. Before I knew it I was stuck in the middle of Lake Burragorang! I was lucky enough to get out of it by over flying the dam walls at well below 300' AGL. Scud running yes, stupidity in hindsight with only 60 odd hours.
Three things I learnt from that experience:

No matter how crap the weather is, always keep a good lookout for traffic (had a VERY near miss with a Jabiru going the other way)
At the time I was very disorientated and didn’t really know where I was, until something clicked and then the VTC became my lifesaver, in terms of telling me when the next turn is and how sharp that turn will be)
Never press on, until I entered that valley I could of selected many fields to put down for the night.I don’t really see a problem with a 300' cloud base but 10km vis, the situation I was in was very low cloud base and VERY poor vis (mild fog/mist). Im fairly sure there are some power lines in Lake Burragorang, but on that day I didn’t come across any at all :eek:

Learn from other peoples mistakes!

Safe flying all
CMN :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

The power lines cross the straight bit of water leading to the dam wall...ask me how I know:uhoh:

[troppo]

Chuck,
I heard the story at the Islands mess in Boroko from the another bloke. Something like he was reading the paper at the time and knew something was amiss when his coffee ended up in his lap. :}

[ContactMeNow]

The power lines cross the straight bit of water leading to the dam wall...ask me how I know:uhoh:

Chimbu,

There were powerlines there :eek:

CMN :E

[M.25]

oh yeah...tallking about dead sticking it when you are on top...there were two brothers in PNG in my time, one of which, when this happened, hit nearest waypoint on the garmin 100 and dead sticked it to a safe landing on the nearest strip with zero vis and cloud base...
now that's an urban myth...:eek:

Pilots who fly under ASETPA approvals must practice and demonstrate a procedure where they deadstick the aircraft in [simulated] imc, using only the GPS to become aligned with the nearest runway down to about 200ft agl - on speed and on profile for a deadstick landing.
Maybe not an urban myth!:ok:

[Andy_RR]

I don’t really see a problem with a 300' cloud base but 10km vis...

How do you deal with engine failure at 300AGL? Not much time for even your basic restart checks before you have to commit to final somewhere...?

A

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yup...Lake Burragorang was like a magnet to a few of us learning to fly at YSBK in the early 80s...until one fella from the Royal Aeroclub, I think it was, skipped a Warrior off the water.

Actually to suggest there were NO man made obstructions in PNG was not entirely accurate...there were mercifully few however.

I just remembered the time I crawled into Lae in the wet season by flying down the Markam river from inland and when reaching the coast carried out a 'rate 1' turn which put me on finals.

After taxiing in I splashed across the ramp and entered the crew room and the senior base pilot said "How did you get in Chuck?". "Down the river from Nadzab". "What about the power lines?" "Power lines?":uhoh:

I subsequently did a re run in nice weather...at a guess the high tension lines crossed the river about 100' above the water at their lowest point...luckily they were in cloud well above me on the day in question.:uhoh:

PNG flying needed, more than any other single trait, a good sense of humour.:}

[beeva]

Good post Sunfish,
Always remember to 'leave the backdoor open..' it's no use letting all safe options slip underneath your wings only to find yourself between a rock and a hard place..fly within your own limitations and you have the pleasure of walking away from every landing satisfied that you have made the right decision at the end of the day. The latest crash comic covers a fair bit about CFIT...

[Jamair]

VFR on top is great - generally nice and smooth, pretty views of cloud tops etc.......but you better make 120% sure that if you don't have an IF rating, you have plenty of fuel and plenty of VMC alternates.

A young Jamair with <50 hrs got into strife out of YRED in a Cherokee Six trying the VFR on top heading west - worked great until the clouds climbed higher than I could and left no easy out - a lucky cloud break over Watts Bridge and an understanding ATC meant we all came back home. Not as exciting as Chuckies PNG adventures, but plenty enough for this pup.....