When level back to 250kts

[fast cruiser]

Hi Guys

What is your expectation from pilots when cleared down to say FL130 and told to when level back to 250kts THEN before reaching FL130 cleared down to say FL90. Do you want us at 250kts at FL130 or now when level at FL90. (disregard the 250kts below FL100 for a minute)...

Just curious as this happened this morning into LHR and raised a discussion point on the flight deck


cheers

FC:hmm:

[Jerricho]

That's not an instruction you hear too often, but I have certainly used it. I can't speak for others, but when I issue a "when level reduce speed to........" I'm thinking that I don't want to screw with your descent rate, getting you down being more important than speed. If in the case you cite it was me, I would try and make a reference to speed requirements again ("When level" or "Start back on the speed now"). But if I didn't, I would expect you to keep going down to the newly assigned altitude, then reduce.

But you're right, can be a little ambiguous.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I can't speak for others, but when I issue a "when level reduce speed to........" I'm thinking that I don't want to screw with your descent rate, getting you down being more important than speed.

With that thinking Jerricho I wish you worked some of the Barcelona APP frequencies now and again! Would make life a bit easier!:eek:

[Jerricho]

The more you guys are in the picture, the easier it can be........unless I don't have a fricken clue either, then one has to start getting creative ;)

[Gonzo]

I can't speak for others, but when I issue a "when level reduce speed to........" I'm thinking that I don't want to screw with your descent rate

So Jer, when you're thinking, who's doing the R/T??? :p

[BitMoreRightRudder]

But you guys aren't allowed to lose the plot! Thats what numptys like me get paid for! Using your logic they must be a really creative bunch down in Barca:}

[Jerricho]

Certainly not you Gonze.......you're at the desk :p

And it's not losing the plot Mr Rudder, it's adjusting the sequence.

[5milesbaby]

As is usually questioned on this forum, its the old instruction superceeded by another instruction, therefore the second replacing the first unless reiterated. Your situation sounds like an instruction issued and then a tx of control/comms takes place, so if you check in on the new frequency and state the speed restriction (as you should) then its up to the next controller to reissue it if they change the current terms unless you simply say "speed 250kts" and miss out the "when level" bit which I've known to happen. The other thing to think about is the SLP, had you passed it or would you pass it while descending FL90, then its even more complicated! If in doubt, ask. More of us controllers are aware of the ambiguity of some instructions so will take the measures needed to avoid this, but not all of us are up to scratch just yet :ouch:

I've tried avoiding using this phrase, and am tending towards "descend FL150 lvl Tiger, make the restriction and when able speed 250 kts", it works well most of the time :ok:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

THATS why the Iberia always ends up infront. And all this time I just thought he was just pushing in!

[danceswithsheep]

Fast,
For us up here, this is what I mean by it...................My friends at PF/PH have an agreement that we will be at 250kt by SLP but we try and expedite this as best we can.
We love speaking to you all but its better for planning if we transfer you early and once we have descended you to the agreed level, off you go. By saying speed 250 through 90, we are meeting all the requirements of a silent handover which saves us a phone call.
The other reason maybe that the controller is trying to close a gap but not screw the final approach person. You maybe in the middle of a sequence and to bring you back straight away would mean a reduction in the gap too the one behind. We understand you cannot descend and reduce so this instruction should make it easier.
Hope this explains it. We would love to give you straight in and no delay but there just seem to be so many of you. If you are ever unsure, ask.....or even better, come in for that visit to the centre!!!!!!!! PS If your unhappy visiting in me here in Scotland...........I'll be in Dubai in 2 months!!!!! Ha Ha

[AlanM]

With that thinking Jerricho I wish you worked some of the Barcelona APP frequencies now and again! Would make life a bit easier!:eek:

......yeah most of NavCan wished he was at the appropriately named "El Prat...." :) :D :sad: ;) :p :ok: :O

[Chilli Monster]

......yeah most of NavCan wished he was at the appropriately named "El Prat...."

Where Vortex spacing is only a myth (Citation straight up the ar*e of an A320 this weekend :rolleyes: )

[Jerricho]

Ouch Mr M..........very ouch.

[AlanM]

ONLY Joking mate....honest....!!!

I take it back. (Wouldn't wish that on Barca tower!!!) :)

How are things C? Still enjoying it??

[fast cruiser]

Thank for the responses guys....

cheers

fc

[250 kts]

Nice to be the subject of a posting again.:ok: :ok: :ok: