Internships ????

[CougarNZ]

I am doing a Diploma Course in NZ
Our second year options let us choose C Cat or MEIR rating.
am looking at doing the C cat Myself.

the thing that worries me is that in the course fees there is a "internship"
Now it appears we end up paying $ 6500 for this "pleasure" of getting out of supervision.
having spent $35000 odd to get to CPL and then $10000 odd for C Cat , i would have thought getting us students to work for free would be enough, but they want to Make money on the aircraft, on us as C cat's ($45 per hour of flight instructing done, with none of this for us ) plus then get us to top that up with this "internship".

is anyone aware of this going on in NZ as a industry norm??
If so why ???????

[Wingman09]

Run Cougar,

So you sit your c-cat and pass second time, you then pay $6500 to have the privilege to work one day a week at this aeroclub. you are guaranteed 50 hrs in return to your investment of $6500 (to hire the plane urself for 50 hours wouldnt cost much more). whilst working this one day a week you will be treated like a bit.ch by many different people and be fighting to answer that phone in hope of a prospective student on the other end. Get out asap. i wouldnt give them another dollar!!
(Im sure we are talking about the same aeroclub)

Wingman

[CougarNZ]

Some extra maths for everyone to consider

$130 per hour for aircraft
$ 45 per hour for instructor time
and if on internship $ 62.50 from the Instructor ( doing internship ) ( based on $6250 divided by 100 hrs )

$237.50 of revenue for the aero club.

surely as a Club Member , The club is run at the benefit of all club members.

How does this benefit me as a club Member??????????

[Oktas8]

Assuming there are no hidden factors (i.e. they give you extra supervision & tuition from an experienced A-Cat for your money, or give you a high number of guaranteed hours to get you out of direct supervision quickly), it does sound like a rip-off.

Mind you, quality costs. For a high quality course run by experienced people, maybe there's a reason for it.

[CougarNZ]

I ask for a copy of my training records the other day ie notes made by instructors after each dual flight just for interest sake to see if them are any patterns showing up.
and they dont seem to do that ????!!!!!!! a bit alarming i thought.

seem that they comply with the CAA stuff but need a extra kick in the ass to provide us with anything more.

[Hanz Blix]

Me thinks its time for you to move on, get out of this organisation before you spend any more money and find somewhere that won't rip you off and will do thier job correctly.

Just my two cents:mad:

[mattyj]

Just do the C Cat course then move on..there will be a club somewhere that will take you under supervision...try and find one with twins so you can get instructor rates later on

[CougarNZ]

Not to keen to pay/let the inept old boys network of my aero club continue ripping of each intake of students.
might just work on improving the place so that the Students are getting a good value training product with the professional system inplace.
if the aero cub wants to have a training school for professional pilots it's time they began running the place more professionally with a better business management structure.

the place has potential. so would sooner see it improve so other students in the furture benefit and the Club benefit too.

[CougarNZ]

just thought i would drop in a update post.

I have decided to go for a self funded progam at Helipro ( they do fixed wing training also ) in Paraparaumu.
to get my C Cat Rating.

after a load of hassle from my ex training place ( also placed in paraparaumu ) i have decided I am better off with the guys on the other side of the runway.

i finally had enough of the self serving antics of the aero club and its so called management team.

great bunch of instructors who are trapped inside a pretty ugly set up.

[Wingman09]

cougar

good choice mate! not only a good choice for the progression of your career, but also i imagine it is a good financial choice. Am i correct in stating that you will be saving $13000 by doing a c-cat at the club across the road. Unreal!!!

Wingman

[CougarNZ]

looking at about $10000 tops for my C Cat. (( thats with a few hrs extra flying to build my PIC time)

was going to be $17000 on other side of runway , due to that 100 hrs internship ie pay to work scheme ( rip off the student scam ) and a huge Admin fee of $2400

[CougarNZ]

tis all good, i am taking my money with me and investing in myself by using a operation run in an all together professional manner.

At the end of the day i will better off in many ways.

[Gravox]

Good on ya Cougar!!
This industry :mad: sucks!

Stand up for your rights and beliefs.:ok: I just wish more people were like you then the industry might change for the better. There are still some dodgy 2 bit operators around. Don't let them take advantage of you. Don't be pressured into doing something that isn't or doesn't feel right.

It appears you've made a great move. Best of luck with the flying game. Hope it all goes well for you.:)

[6080ftflyer]

You say you have to pay a internship of $6500 for the "pleasure of getting out of supervision" and a C Cat course of $10000.
That at first seems like abit of money but if you remove the internship fee you are still paying the same fee to train "with the guys on the other side of the runway"
Are you garenteed any work over there or will you have to spend about $15500 to build the 100hrs that you would otherwise get at your previous training orginasition.

Just something to think about.

[6080ftflyer]

There was one other thing i noticed about your Thread.
I had a quick look on a few web sites and it appears you would be getting a pretty good deal if that internship gets you out of supervision because to get out of supervision requires you to have a B Cat rating and from what i read you are a long way from that (min 450 PinC and 250hrs instructing)
So if $6500 gets you out of supervision i would be keen to give it a go.

[Capt Mo]

So if $6500 gets you out of supervision i would be keen to give it a go.


You would?

I admit I don't know what the instructing scene is like in NZ, but I havent heard of any place in Aus that offers this so called "opportunity" for instructors:yuk:

It simply sounds like a dodgy organisation that feeds off the vulnerability of pilots looking for that first job and are willing to do anything to get it. Unfortunately many will take up this "opportunity" and as long as they do, these organisations will continue to take advantage of them and it disadvantages those who go out and look for work and don't feel like paying company to work for them.

Its not easy starting out as an instructor, you will spend many days hanging around helping out, and might get asked to fill in for an instructor (right place right time) soon, you will get a few students and before you know it the hours will start coming, you just need to be patient, work hard and not expect to have things handed to you on a silver platter just because you can pay for it. Good on you Cougar for getting out of that place! You will not regret it!

Regards,

Mo

[6080ftflyer]

Im just like most other young pilots and want to get into it and have some fun along the way. So when it comes to paying for that internship with someone elses money (interest free student loan) i dont think $6500 is alot of money to speed up the process of gaining a few hours and some experience. I havnt started my training yet but from what ive heard about the market in NZ its not very good at the moment.

[ju7ez]

Not everyone likes to rely on government money to get through, I personally don't want a loan over my head, interest free or not. You also still have to pay it back eventually.:)

[6080ftflyer]

True, i dont really want one either but unfortunately there are lots of people who dont mind the thought of a $60,000 debt. Which means lots of people are getting a CPL and trying to get the few jobs that there. It seems to be a dog eat dog industry and by the look of it some people will do what ever it takes to get any advantage they can.
However i do respect your opinion and i also think its unfortunate that organisations can do this but like i say people will do what ever it takes and i dont think $6500 is a lot of money when it comes to aviation.

[CougarNZ]

My Bank loan with a decent interest rate has been approved!!

so i start my C Cat in 3 weeks time.
once i have it completed that i am looking to study part time for the Grad Diploma in Aviation from Massey Uni while working with far better conditions at new training organisation.
I am willing to put in the hard work to succeed but not willing to keep the old boys network sweet with my money, which that are not investing in the next generation of club members !!!!!!!!!!!!!

at this point i believe i have a far better chance of success by heading for the western side of the runway.

6080ft read the maths earlier in my thread , the "internship" is a blatent rip off.
$6500 is a **** load of money to me , student loan or bank loan. i still have to earn that in the future to remove myself from debt.

dont worry 6080ft i have read a fair bit of part 61 and understand the path I am heading down.

at the end of the day i have taken my money to the place where i feel i can be treated with respect and thrust that i am getting value for MY Money.

[CougarNZ]

Capt Mo , thanks for the support.

I think that NZ is a little stuffed up due to the student loans , with some training outfits seeing it as a easy way to add in large "admin fees" or "internships" that add a few extra thousand on to help the bottom line of the training outfit but have no real added value to the student.

[6080ftflyer]

So you would know from your part 61 that as a C Cat you will always be under supervision so i ask how well do you know your part 61?
I do agree with you cougar on the issue of NZ being a little stufed up on the student loan thing due to the fact that there seems to be far to many idiots flying around the country and this leads to idiots being able to do instructor ratings and on the subject of idiots why does your mate wingman think you will pass your C Cat the 2nd time around? Does he know you well?

Best of luck with your training anyway:ugh:

[Thump & Go]

6080ft, as I read it he's talking about getting out of direct supervision not all the way to B-Cat level.On that basis paying $6500 for a hundred revenue earning hours is surely robbery, no?

[ju7ez]

I am willing to put in the hard work to succeed but not willing to keep the old boys network sweet with my money, which that are not investing in the next generation of club members !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know a club that is all about looking after the next generation of club members, their plane rates are subsidised by the land they own. Only $105 Solo and $120 dual C-152. $115 Solo and $130 dual C-172.
Don't do CPL or instructor ratings though, but there are still "good guys" out there!

[CougarNZ]

Sounds like a good spot Ju7ez.

6080ft , yes Wingman and I are good mates.
he and the rest of the students on our course have had similar problems , i am just older and more vocal in my displeasure.

[Cloud Cutter]

Settle down fella.

It is ludicrous for an aeroclub to charge anything for an instructor to get out of supervision (which by the way has nothing to do with getting a B-Cat, just 100 hrs and 6 months).

The aeroclub should be paying YOU for your services as an instructor (even if it's only $10 an hour to start with). CougarNZ, you are very right to question it and look elsewhere.

Good luck with the new operator.

[CougarNZ]

Can you answer the question about passing the 2nd time around. Why would a good mate say that?

And about being more vocal about your displeasure, to me it sounds like you are just being abit of a bitch.

that was his dig at the aero club , they had a couple people failed the C Cat flight test , something the Previous ( and one in the same B Cat where am going to train ) has never had happen.
it wasnt something i was concerned about with the Current B Cats, have high level of respect for them in fact.

Well, as for being a bitch !!! Someone has to keep them honest.
$2400 for a admin fee in first yr of course and $2400 for Admin fee in 2nd Yr of course plus the $6500 (for the pay to work rip off scheme/ internship ) would have seen me giving again $11300 for no real value.
if you are happy to give away that much i can forward you my bank details!!!!!! you pillick !!!!!!!

I have no problem paying for a service i recieve but a non value admin fee does not sit well with me or any of the 10 unhappy guys from my course that all have quit the cousre and gone on to continue training on their own & better terms .

I Love Aviation but am also keen to earn a living in this trade , am not here to pay to work !!!! I value the skills i have and am learning !!!

Cheers for the support Cloud Clutter, good to see other positive poeple on the "aerodrome"

[Wingman09]

6080 ft

who you calling idiot?? you sound like a bit of a know it all for someone who hasnt started his training. maybe once you have put a financial commitment towards a flying career you will be able to contribute to this thread. like cougar has pointed out $6500 to the average joe is alot of money to pay to work for an orginastoan for nothing. after spending $55,000+ with an orginisation you would expect to be rewarded with a job purely through goodwill if you meet there standards(which you should considering they have trained you). tell me this 6080ft, when you started your job at burger king would you have considered paying your manager a sum of money to get out of your supervision period to get onto handeling the drive thru by yourself???
also back to the passing secound time question, if you had read the thread, i was implying that the training standards at this organisation are not the best hence a number of people having two attempts at it before passing. and yes cougar and i are good friends!!

Wingman09

[6080ftflyer]

wingboy09
From what ive heard about this organisation i dont think there is a issue with the quality of training. However the internship is a issue of its own. Have you done any flying or training? or are you just trying to support your little boyfriend.

[NZDP]

Far out what a load of ****e ! I totally agree with cloud clutter there, they sould be paying you for your services. Sure I know of a few places that don't pay you will you are in supervision (but deffinatly don't charge you for it) but yet most places do pay you while in supervision. I got paid VERY well. Good on you cougar for taking your money elsewhere. Come down to the south island, i'm sure you will find a much better deal.
By the way, how much does this outfit charge for an instrument rating ? I've heard that it was also a stupidly large figger if it's the same place i'm thinking about...

[CougarNZ]

Thanks for your wonderful name calling input 6080ft , you will surely be a asset to the aviation community with your "positive" and mature Attitude !!!

[6080ftflyer]

is that internship compusary?

[CougarNZ]

Pretty much , you have to pay the full fee , and if you opt out out doing the internship they let you fly the remaining money off. ie still keeping you money.

am happy to pass you the name of the place if you really are keen to part with your money !!!

, please note i started this thread ages ago to find out if this was normal practice . which i have learnt that is is not.

6080ft seems strangely keen to defend this organistion ?????

[6080ftflyer]

wrong there cougar
Im not trying to defend anyone. After thinking about it for a while and a bit of research it is pretty gay to charge a internship fee but i think it dosent matter what organisation you spend money with in aviation there is always someone who gets pissed off with the place they choose to spend that money. It will be interesting to see what you think of heli pro in another 6 months. From the few instructors i have spoken to they seem to be getting a pretty poor deal as well, most of them seem pretty dedicated to helping people like you and me(oneday) to achieve what they love doing and they dont seem to get payed much for the work they do. I say "most" of them because im sure there are some young ones out there just for the hours.