Is the landing flare really all that complicated?

[Tee Emm]

ATSB have released a paper on how to judge the flare in light aircraft landings. The authors of the paper were given a government grant. After ploughing through a plethora of maths and physics to discover how to fly the last few seconds of flight path I confess to being totally bemused on what pre-solo ab intio pilots will gain from reading it.

The introduction discusses "impoverished" and "rich" visual judgement of the flare. Example:

Pilot performance was generally superior to non-pilot performance. However, both pilots and non-pilots were found to demonstrate flare timing biases during impoverished visual conditions (i.e. reduced depth cues) - indicating that strategies based on perceptions of environmental distance and/or critical runway angle must also have played a role. Importantly, very accurate timing judgments were possible with richer visual displays (i.e. additional depth cues) that provided performance feedback. Thus, we conclude that entry-level flight simulators can be used for flare timing training if certain minimum visual display conditions have been met.

Anyway, read it for yourself if you have time. There is no doubt at all, the authors have gone to a lot of trouble in their research on the subject, but at the risk of being called a cynic, I don't think the subject matter is worth the financial cost of the grant.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2006/grant_20050119.aspx (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2006/grant_20050119.aspx)

[Arm out the window]

'Our data provided some support for the hypothesis that pilots initiate the flare when their perceived time-to-contact with the ground reaches a critical value'.

No ****, Sherlock!

[Hugh Jarse]

There was an item in the Aviation Safety Digest quite a few years ago which was written by somebody by the name of Jacobson.

It went through explaining all the maths, etc, and the technique works quite well and consistently.

Jacobson Flare, anybody? :E

[Keg]

Please Jarse, not even in jest! :eek: :suspect: :E

[Tankengine]

Flare just BEFORE the guy/gal in the other seat flinches!;) :E

[Tarq57]

No ****, Sherlock

Plagiarist!;)

[Atlas Shrugged]

Pilot performance was generally superior to non-pilot performance
http://www.bluelinecomics.com/pictures/Faster%20than%20the%20speed%20of%20stupid%20600.jpg

[hoss]

Hey, that would make a good navbag sticker:ok: .

[djpil]

the research and its outcomes must directly benefit Australian civil aviation safety
My application for a grant, with a Professor from a local Uni, for research into stall /spin awareness amongst pilots was rejected.

[Howard Hughes]

Is the landing flare really all that complicated?

Well in a word YES, so difficult in fact, some of the people I fly with decide to leave it out altogether!! :ooh:

Oh my aching back...;)

[yowie]

Have to agree with HH,although when I have "had a hard one",it really wasn't my fault!:ouch:

[Keg]

...when I have "had a hard one",it really wasn't my fault!:ouch:

I blame poor seat position. If I've got a bad one, I mention it during the pre-flight to get the excuses in early. If I subsequently grease it on then all it really shows is that I still have no idea! :eek: :cool:

[Centaurus]

I find the "About Yea" method, the most reliable.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Well I just plain dunno......

When I was a 'sprog' in a DHC-1, my good ole instructor , 'Mr. Spike J'....
(NSW Aviators from 40 years ago MAY remember these times...) used to say to flare at "The Ht. Of A Double Decker Bus".........

Unfortunately, to my poor inexperienced senses, 'Double Decker Busses' varied from anywhere in between 76'agl to 4'agl......sometimes with almost disarrrstrous results..

However, when I got my first hundred hours and was eventually sent FIRST SOLO, I had that bloody bus down to a VERY FINE art!!!!!!!!!

And, I must hasten to say, I have never 'looked back' since.....

These blokes could have had my advice for free!!!! I was that proud, all the buttons on me chest, just 'flew' off.....

Now, I can FLARE / flare / almost flare / LAND / almost land ANYTHING...from ANY height....and the poor old pax don't even know we have 'caressed' mother earth..... ah....patience is a virtue.....and, Thanks Spike, you dun good!!:ok:

[anotheraussieintheuk]

Over the years I have found if you have the speed spot on, the flare and touchdown will generally be when and where you expect them.

There again. after a few years on the B744, it takes a few circuits before I can adjust the brain to a Piper flare height.............and then makes you concentrate when you get back into the B744 so that forget and wait to flare at Piper height!!!!

And as for "Pilot performance was generally superior to non-pilot performance"...........duh!!!! Thats why the pilots sit in the seats at the front, and the non-pilots sit in the seats at the back.

[Lodown]

Landing flare???? Never heard of it.

Drive it in son! Drive it in.

[Arm out the window]

Landing flare - very simple!
Just take the square root of your airspeed, multiply by your height AGL, apply a correction as per the compass card and pressure error chart, apply a factor of 3.2 times the flap setting in degrees plus a double decker bus, and...bugga - too late!

:8

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Flare just BEFORE the guy/gal in the other seat flinches!;) :E

sheez. Hope the current Chief of Air Force isn't in the other seat :}

[Arm out the window]

Ohh yeah, that could be very nasty.:)

[Disguise Delimit]

For those who do not understand Pass-A-Frozo's comment, the current Chief Chief Chief of Air Force has a bit of a twitwittwitch. Had it for 36 years that I know of, made worse by a Mirage ejection in the mid 70s.:eek:

[Captain Starlight]

Navy carrier pilots are of the opinion that "Flaring to Land" is like squatting to pee!

Now have a look at all the other grant funded research that ATSB has sponsored, it's all there on ATSB'sweb site.

Alcohol / Drug impaired pilot, bird strikes etc.

money well spent on keeping us alive. ?

[rmcdonal]

Can any one say ‘trailing link undercarriage’

All jokes aside, I always find that flaring before touchdown improves aircraft performance in the long term. :ok:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Start flare at twenty feet....How can I tell it's twenty feet? Easy old boy, when you can make out individual blades of grass it's twenty feet.:ok:

[Arm out the window]

Just watch out for dat kunai grass, eh!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around". :p

[anotheraussieintheuk]

Pass-a-frozo, first lighty go after 5 years on the B747 was somewhat amusing, for both me and the instructor!! Took a bit of "encouragement" to let the aircraft go below the B747 height that I had become used to. The next circuit was fine. I did have to concentrate a bit more for my next landing on the B747 to make sure I flared at the correct height for the B747.

[tipsy2]

Whilst I hesitate to agree with "OZBUSDRIVER" because it does tend to date anybody that learnt to fly off and onto grass. However my instructor said the same sage words to me many years ago. It certainly worked then but I have a hell of a job these days landing on bitumen or concrete:E

Then again the words "if you can't handle it, park it" also ring loudly in my memory. :D

tipsy:ok:

[jon s gull]

Start flare at twenty feet....How can I tell it's twenty feet? Easy old boy, when you can make out individual blades of grass it's twenty feet.:ok:

Does'nt work in the current drought here or on dirt strips, I fly various types from Airtractor 802 to RV4 and gliders. Down wind checks include aircraft and undercarriage type, as preparation for landing. The landing is all about where your head is at. Its amazing how landing an overloaded taildragger at night focuses the concentration.

[Keg]

Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around". :p

I got a go on a high performance lightie (one you may be familiar with PAFie) a few years back. I had about three attempts at the flare- all in the one extended flare! I felt I was being swallowed up by the runway when we eventually dropped the last couple of feet! It had been a long time sinceh the runway was that high up in my peripheral vision! :eek: :ok:

[twiggs]

There was an item in the Aviation Safety Digest quite a few years ago which was written by somebody by the name of Jacobson.

It went through explaining all the maths, etc, and the technique works quite well and consistently.

Jacobson Flare, anybody? :E

I can remember doing the bridge to bridge in Perth more than 10 years ago with a TN/QF 737 captain, which gave him enough time to explain to those of us walking with him how he had worked out how to calculate the exact time to flare for any aircraft.
He had documented it and was trying to get it used by QF.
Can't remember if his name was Jacobson though.

He got the idea from an old war movie, not sure which one, could have been "The Dam Busters".

[Chimbu chuckles]

Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around".

Yeah...every 6 weeks or so I end up back in BNE on an overnight and climb into my Bonanza to refresh my soul and remind myself, after 6 weeks of 767, that I am still a pilot rather than a FMC programmer/voice activated gear retraction system.

I have always maintained an attachment to little aeroplanes since leaving GA for airline flying nearly 12 years ago but even so my first landing is always following a flare that was a little too high. After a long absense from my Bonanza I get a terrible feeling that I have forgotten the gear as the 'swallowed by the runway' feeling creeps up around my ears.:uhoh:

About half way through last Xmas' big holiday trip I started rolling the Bo on in a MOST satisfying manner...then my first landing back in the 767 was a little firm:}

Still it's all good for the soul...and keeps the ego in check too:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Chuck; Ever thought about climbing back into a 185 again??:D

[Arm out the window]

I found the Jacobsen flare thing to be a bit contrary to my own feelings as to how, why and when we flare.
The guy came and gave a presentation about it to a bunch of us who instructed at one of the military schools, and while it was all reasonable, I came away with the thought that while it may well work, it was something he'd come up with that he was trying to say was somehow better than other ways of learning to judge the flare.
I forget the details, but I believe the method was something to do with when the aimpoint disappeared under the nose, or was about to, cueing the flare response.
To me, that's not the way to go - I've seen lots of people learn to flare, even tried to teach them a thing or two about it, and I firmly believe that if you look in the right places, you can and will be able to judge the flare nicely, no matter who you are.
In a nutshell -
1. Before going out to learn how to flare, sit in the aircraft at the threshold for a little while and see how the runway looks in your peripheral vision.

2. Have a finals scan that looks at the aimpoint, further up the runway and also out to the sides a bit - peripheral vision also important, of course.

3. Closer to the ground, don't fixate on the numbers, keep the scan going and use any cues available - height of buildings, windsocks, fence posts, texture of grass or surface.

4. When you feel it's time to flare (normal instructor-demonstrated height for type, and other closure cues like ground 'ballooning' up in peripheral vision & what rate it's happening at), look towards the far end of the runway to judge the effectiveness of your flare so you can adjust the rate and amount.

I reckon that beats any formulaic way of doing it, however I will stand by for strong disagreement perhaps!

[maui]

You all make too much of it . When the mechanical voice says 20ft raise the nose 2deg and wait. The triple bogie take care of the rest.

Works a treat.

Maui

[Eight Ball]

Sorry to get off track a bit...

I read it somewhere that a flight attendant went to the cockpit after a "hard one" ( apparently blaming the F.O for not flaring on time ) and said
" Geez guys, let me know the next time you're gonna do one of these landings so I can put my sports bra on".... :}

[dmussen]

My Gawd! "non-pilots".

As shown in DHC 1,JP3, JP 5, Folland Gnat and Victor Bia way back thirty odd years ago by various QFI's:-
1.Stable correct speed over the fence wings level.
2. When one scenses the edges of the runway about to "feel" like they are just below your earlobes boot off the drift,if required, and flare power off et al. Then all you have to do is wait.
3. The same imagining technique work at night kooking at the reds and the other end and "feeling the lights come up around your ears.
It worked for me in aircraft of all sizes.

Victor B1a.

[Woomera]

"Would the passengers please remain seated whilst the captain taxis what's left of this aircraft, to the Passenger Terminal!"

Best flare I ever saw was the film footage of the DHC5 Caribou demonstrator at an air show many years ago. Think the flare was intended to occur at ground level, minus forty feet. Buffalos are built tough - but not that tough!!! :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Pinky I flew a mates C180 late last year in the UK...it used to be registered P2-DEQ when I last flew it in PNG....looking forward to doing so again soon.

When the mechanical voice says 20ft raise the nose 2deg and wait. The triple bogie take care of the rest.

That's pretty much what I do in the 767...although I begin to round out just after the 30' talking radalt call so about 25RA. If you get the right pitch rate and time sliding the thrust levers closed just right (by looking well down the runway-just like any aeroplane) you can get a MOST satisfying feeling of VERY slight 'drag' low down as the autobrakes indicate you have touched down:ok: :ok: :ok:

Edited for 'begin to round out'

[VH-GRUMPY]

Not wanting to be totally serious about this subject BUT

When I worked in the BASI (Oz), a psych PhD student wanted to check exactly that - how do pilots learn to land (flare) and aeroplane - to grease it on.

I suggested that first it might be a good idea if she went out and did it with an instructor - I think I was President of the Canberra Aero Club at the time. She went out with the CFI (ex-army pilot who made it look very easy).

She went and flew a few circuits and then came back and exposed a lot of BASI pilots to a series of tests - involving images and perceptions of appoach etc. Flash cards thingies.

I am sure that her conclusion was that despite all of the therories - and taught techiques (blades of grass included) we all did it differently, what worked for us as individuals worked and no one could to explain it.

I hope she got her PhD.

:sad:

[maui]

CC

If you had a more modern steed you wouldn't have to retard the throttles. Autothrottle is full time.
With a bit of luck the Q will one day come out of the third world. (But hang on, most of that third world already have modern equipment)

BTW. If you do it right the speedbrake lever will tell you you are on the ground.

Maui

[Chimbu chuckles]

Can't imagine anything worse than full time autothrottle...surely even in the 777 you can disconnect it and land normally?

A full autoland in the 767 typically eats up another 1000' of blacktop...not always a good thing.

In my view even the venerable 767 has passed the perfect automation threshold and is someway down the slippery slope of 'too much of a good thing'.

When your biggest challenge at work is staying awake the machine is doing too much and you not enough.

[Oh that's super!]

Why is it that this research somehow brings certain words to my head - "wheel" and "reinvent"??

If someone starts prattling off the academic theory behind the flares as I'm flaring, I'd probably end up burying the thing. :=

[gassed budgie]

Its attitude, attitude and attitude. Whenever we’re out flying, we’re looking to see if we’ve got the aeroplane setup in the climb attitude, straight and level attitude, descent attitude etc. It’s the same deal when we land the aeroplane. The aeroplane lands in the ‘landing attitude’ if you like.
Sliding down final the aim point sits nice and still (ideally) in the windscreen. The machine is trimmed to fly hands off, using the throttle to control the airspeed.
This being the case, you cannot arrive at the aim point at anything but the round out height. The aircraft is rounded out to a straight and level attitude and then the pilot (or student perhaps) is told to look down at the end of the runway. You don’t have a horizon as such, so the end of the runway is the reference point. Unfortunately the bulk of students probably aren’t told what there are actually looking for at the end of the runway.
It’s the attitude of course. If the nose isn’t where you want, well you’re the only one at this point in time who has an opportunity to do something about it. As you hold off and flare, backpressure is applied on the yoke or stick to raise the nose to the correct landing attitude. Your peripheral vision is used to give you visual clues as to the aircrafts height above the runway, but perhaps more importantly whether the aircraft is ballooning or sinking gently towards the runway. You will have to adjust the attitude accordingly. Nothing dramatic or harsh, just keep it nice and smooth.
How many times have we been with someone and experienced the dreaded porpising down the runway? You’re on about the fourth bounce and the next one is going to break the nose wheel off and you look across the the PIC and nothing! They’re just along for the ride. No attitude control, no anything. I wonder what they were taught. And so easy to fix. If you get the attitude right, everything else will fall neatly into place. It’s the attitude!

[pakeha-boy]

8-BALL.....who cares what F/A,s think about the landing???

[haughtney1]

That's pretty much what I do in the 767...although I begin to round out just after the 30' talking radalt call so about 25RA. If you get the right pitch rate and time sliding the thrust levers closed just right (by looking well down the runway-just like any aeroplane) you can get a MOST satisfying feeling of VERY slight 'drag' low down as the autobrakes indicate you have touched down
Just as I did it the other day with a pedantic old so & so captain who needs to retire..soonish!
He later told me I was landing an effing 767..and not a light aircraft:yuk: what a pompus ex RAF w**ker.
Imagine my delight, after our "arrival" back at home base I suggested a heavy landing check was required..as his Boeing landing wasnt like landing an F4 on a carrier or a runway:E
CRM wasnt his strong point..at least I waited till we were back home before I let rip.
To me its all about feel...attitude..and knowing when to cut the power..all the rest is in murphys hands:}
Oh yeah..next time an FA moans about a landing....offer to make her/him a crap cup of coffee..whats good for the goose:ok:

[LookinDown]

Budgie,
You gave a great description of the indicators of having successfully established an aircraft on a stabilised final approach…the essential precursor to any good landing (and I mean more than simply one that you can walk away from!).

I’d like to suggest though that its not peripheral vision that gives any more than very course visual clues on descent rate. It is the focus on the runway end or reference point or even the horizon during the second phase of the roundout that provides the really important information, specifically the descent rate and momentary lack thereof which is the signal to continue holding off.

That old exercise of standing on the ground and bending your knees while looking slightly ahead or aside and trying to sense depth perception through peripheral or even direct vision of the ground compared with the amazing sensitivity achieved while looking well ahead while bending the knees ever so slightly says it all. Attitude is very important but only as a measure of whether the check is decent rate is being achieved.

I agree with your thoughts on the degree to which training is successfully tackling what must be the most challenging phase of basic pilotage. There is so much to be gleaned from the cues at the far end of the runway.

[Arm out the window]

Lookin' down, consider a black as night landing with only the runway lights and maybe a pissweak landing light to help - the appearance of the far end isn't that useful, although I agree it's in that direction we should be looking.
It's the changing aspect of the lights out to the sides with respect to those far end lights that give us the info we need.
Peripheral vision is definitely important there, and as we have about 180 deg of it, we pick up a lot of clues from it.

[maui]

CC

Yes you can. No you don't need too as it works well.

Boeing policy as backed up by our company is:- full time

Maui

[Centaurus]

Ever tried trying to find the ground at night when wearing goggles in a Tiger Moth? I tell you what - it is quite difficult to judge the round-out height in a Tiger Moth on an all over grass field with just a few burning kerosene goose-neck flares and of course no landing lights. I even tried to use a powerful torch but was bollocked by my RAAF instructor because I took my hand off the throttle. Once the tail was down you couldn't see over the nose of the Tiger and if you risked a wheeler the danger was from prop strike. Raw data circuits on a black night on a turn and balance indicator (no ADI of course).
In today's jargon it would be called a Skills Test.

[Arm out the window]

Centaurus, I was going to add to my last (but forgot) that wearing NVGs, which cut your field of view down to 40 degree cones, makes it a damn sight harder to judge the flare - as one of my instructors put it when I was learning, 'you have to wave your head around like a noddy dog to fill in the gaps!' - possibly the more modern-day version of what you went through in the Tiger.:)

[Chimbu chuckles]

I forgot to add to my last that when the talking radalt says 10' I hold that attitude as I slide the thrust levers closed...keep flaring in a 767-300 and you'll get a tailstrike.

[Duke 666]

Dont stop the Decent is the best advice if you think about it..

[F/O Bloggs]

Nothing works consistently for the 717.
:ugh:

[pakeha-boy]

......for those of us that have flown floats,come back in the dark,(with a little bit of light)and had to do a night landing,(and those who have done will know what i,m talking about.)...not bragging here at all,but the ability to maintain a stabilized app and profile with a 300ft/min descent rate below 50 ft gave you a fairly smooth landing...

Lake Hood Alaska installed a "lighted runway" which made things so much easier,..so to answer the original question.....yeah I reckon the landing flare counts for alot.....especially night landings in a float plane...try it:E

[LookinDown]

Arm,
Thanks. A good point and I have to admit that I was only considering VFR. I still wonder though whether peripheral vision is actually the key to depth perception rather than just an adjunct to it.

Peripheral is an excellent source of cuing into relative movement, especially in picking up other aircraft, but I think that its still the forward vision (and a little downward)that is relied upon for depth perception, even at night. The schematics of illuminated runway perspectives as indicators of relative approach position require analysis of the view ahead.

This is just my opinion and happy to have holes shot in it. Good pilots draw from as many information sources as possible for cross referencing so undoubtedly its the calculated combination of all vision that maximises success. The teaching of where to actually focus at various stages in the roundout though can help break down the sensual/information overload into manageable chunks for the newbie. The forward focus during the latter part also gives valuable info for the rollout and especially guidance for any necessary cross-wind correction whereas peripheral vision may not be so useful for these.
LD
PS Forward vision in the tiger or any tail dragger for that matter in three-point certainly poses its problems though.

[The Messiah]

Centaurus

This skills test you speak of in Tiger Moths wasn't difficult for 17 year olds in 1942.

Maybe you just lack the "skill".

[pakeha-boy]

Messiah...thats cruel mate,cruel.....but a bloody good point.....the 1942 point that is....

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think you may be surprised out how long ago and under whose auspices Centaurus was doing night circuits in a Tiger Moth...plus he simply asked if anyone else had tried it....nothing in his post suggests he was not successful

Had he not been successful I would imagine he would not have gone on to fly Mustang and Lincoln Bombers (Lincoln was the last model Lancaster):ok:

[The Messiah]

By the way Chimbu, disconnecting the autothrottle in a 777 would be a non-normal landing, no matter which airline you fly it for. I expect all airliners from now will be the same, only the old stuff (767 737 757) will stay the same for certification req's to cross qualify the crews, and I am familiar with what a Lincoln Bomber was and I'm glad you are too.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nurries Messiah...my Dad flew em to...same airforce and same time as Centaurus:ok:

The 777 must be very clever...I cannot imagine how it decides when, and how fast, to close them during a manual landing. Perhaps one of these days I will see it first hand and be suitably empressed. IF the fleet replacement plans were I work actually happen as planned it's seems more likely I'll go 767-787...but as with all these things I'll believe it when it's parked outside and the type rating is in my licence:ok:

.

[The Messiah]

Chimbu

I must say your lack of aggression in your post is extremely refreshing and pleasantly surprising. I thank you for your sentiment as it is rare on this forum, yet certainly appreciated by me and would have been by my dad who was one of the Moth trainees I am speaking of in '42 (RIP).

It's a different aviation these days!!!!! The Ghost Squadron has them all now. :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

I remember my Dad (ex 461sqn) once commenting that landing the Sunderland was 'a little different'.
Unfortunately I never asked him the specifics :{
14 years too late now.