Returning to Australia? Read this...

[Ochre Insider]

Cut and paste from the Qantas Pilot Union (AIPA) website:

“Under the new workplace laws, the next round of EBAs can be unilaterally terminated by Qantas management with effect from 90 days after their expiry date. At that time, unless a new agreement has been finalised, the terms and conditions of employment will then revert to the five guaranteed minima under the new laws:

Minimum wage of $25,188.90 per annum
Ordinary working hours of 38 hours per week averaged over 12 months i.e. 20 hours for some weeks, 70 for others
4 weeks annual leave
12 months unpaid parental leave
10 days sick leave or personal /carers leave per year”

The above terms and conditions may not be in force now, but ask yourself what will happen when the next “crisis” hits. Fuel prices double again, the next SARs, George Bush marches into Iran, or a long overdue world recession. One day you could arrive at work to find a new contract waved under your nose on a take it or leave it basis. In other industries employees would walk and find something else to do. What about pilots? What else are you qualified to do? How much bargaining power do you have? Very quickly the stark realisation that your highly prized jet job in Australia doesn’t quite provide the expected return will descend upon you.

Far fetched and fanciful? Already we have Jetstar pilots undercutting Qantas by 40%. Qantas management “offering” 737 crew a 3 year pay freeze. Alan Joyce reportedly talking AWA's. Decide for yourself.

Are you an expat with pressure from the family to return home? How will you deal with the worst case scenario? Better the devil you know than the devil you don't?

Or are you a student pilot learning to fly? How much will it cost you? Before you spend over one hundred thousand dollars (remembering that from now on you will usually have to pay for your own endorsements), ask yourself what sacrifices you will have to make to fly a jet in Australia. Will you earn enough to pay off your flying debt, let alone buy a car or a house, have children, send them to school, and then find enough left over to have a beer every now and then?

Consider the possibilities and ask yourself, is an Australian jet job really worth it?

How much do you really want it?

[ernestkgann]

Sounds like you better get yourself a job overseas mr red!

[AerocatS2A]

Ordinary working hours of 38 hours per week averaged over 12 months i.e. 20 hours for some weeks, 70 for others


Not relevant to flight crew as their working hours are ultimately limited by CAO48 or its exemption.

[Icarus2001]

Quite right. How do I sign up for an average of 38 hours per week and also cap the maximum duty hours at 90 per fourteen days as per CAO 48?:confused:

Pilots regularly do 45 duty hours per week, 7 more than 38! Which is about 18% more than the "normal" working week. Mmmmmm...:ugh:

[ITCZ]

Minimum wage of $25,188.90 per annum


That is incorrect. Things are bad, but not that bad.

Where an EBA or CA or Award existed prior to the new Act, the conditions in that agreement apply until a new EBA/CA/AWA are made, or until a general and very basic Award covering airline employees (ie it will be for pilots, ramp staff, check in staff, cabin crew, engineers, call centre etc) is put in place.

You AIPA guys need some better industrial advice. This stuff is out there. If you know an AFAP rep, get him/her to give you a briefing.

[Sonny Hammond]

AFAP? yeah...ok.

Read the fine print. Current CA/eba's are covered and last indefinitely. CA's/eba's or whatever that are negotiated under the new legislation have different protections.

Sure unless we agree to a change on our current CA we are OK but when we sign a new eba off, well thats when thing may change. At the end of the day if QF decide they want rid of all of us, now they can do it easily.
Quite frankly that should be the right of the employer always but I don't like the taste of it.

I guess we need to prove our value to QF at a time when the office dwellers seem to think we are a liability to the operation. All of us, J*, Natjet, regional and mainline.

Its all in the fine print and be sure that QF have read it all.

[DutchRoll]

Geezus, I hope the AFAP have considered the broader ramifications of the legislation better than that, for their members' sake!

The bottom line is that even the most powerful legal minds in the country don't fully understand what can and cannot be forced upon a workforce under the new laws, as none of it has yet been 'tested'. What is for certain though, is that it is designed to be extremely favourable to employers and provide them with an 'out' for almost everything, and with enough loopholes so that employers which are, shall we say, 'ethically challenged', can use it to their advantage.

I'm told that AIPA has an extremely reputable industrial law specialist working for them, now that they've axed their previous legal 'representation' which devoted 95% of its time to appeasing the company in whatever way it had to.

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dutch Roll, unfortunately for it's members (and fortunately for Qantas IR) all of AIPA's corporate knowledge base was recently let go by the "new guard" who were unhappy, it seems, with the quality of the last three EBAs.

AIPA now sails with a new and untested crew into a hurricane. It is all very well to hire "specialists" (and are there any in this industrial new world?) who walk away enriched and unscathed at the end. Their efficacy will be seen in the progress made into the teeth of the freshening gale. No progress so far. Quite the opposite in fact.

A "batten down the hatches" and "heave to" approach would undoubtedly have been a less risky strategy (but that is up to a membership who wish to chance all on one throw of the dice!).

In the end, you can be sure the lawyers will win.

[DutchRoll]

Uh huh. I'm aware of your political inclinations, Lucius, as we all are. Your very last statement is quite ironic, given what happened just before the 'new guard' took over. Anyway, you enjoy your retirement. The rest of us with many years to go are apparently in for quite a struggle under the new system. The company, emboldened by the laws it helped to frame, may be talking tough, but I'm certain it doesn't respect weakness either.

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dutch Roll,

Anyway, you enjoy your retirement.
So sorry, not retired.

The company, emboldened by the laws it helped to frame, may be talking tough, but I'm certain it doesn't respect weakness either.
The company could not have asked, quite frankly, for a better set of circumstances than the current ones.

Thanks.

[buzzz.lightyear]

That's right. Get the AFAP to help. Why not ask for 29.47%.
If you don't get it you could then take some action.
Like resign perhaps.
But really, all you want to do is negotiate. Right?

[Sonny Hammond]

And the old AIPA corporate knowledge base did heaps to protect the position of the pilots.
Hell, QF wanted the old style Aipa to stay because every they wanted from the pilots came to them on a silver pplate.

The old "AIPA corporate knowledge" can go and screw themselves.

[Kampai]

Icarus2001,

That would be so cool. But not all airline pilots live under the protection of 48. Some of us live (HA!) and work under FMS. No restrictions on hours. Actually there is no reason to ever leave work, you just 'rest'. and just because they say it won't work that way, it always ends up like that.

[Capt Fathom]

Ordinary working hours of 38 hours per week averaged over 12 months
And we all saw what happened to the last lot that tried to work 9 to 5! :)

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dear Sonny,

QF wanted the old style Aipa to stay because every they wanted from the pilots came to them on a silver pplate.


The pilots industrial opponents did not want the old style AIPA to stay because they were calm and reasonable. It is much easier to get what you want from an opponent when they are being less than fair, dishonourable and irrational themselves.

the old guard have left a nice legacy for the next generation have'nt you

I don't count myself as one of the old guard actually, but yes, you would have to say that the conditions for QF pilots have never been better.

As to the next generation, they have shown signs of panic at the first sign of trouble.

No doubt they will get whatever they deserve.

[AerocatS2A]

Icarus2001,

That would be so cool. But not all airline pilots live under the protection of 48. Some of us live (HA!) and work under FMS. No restrictions on hours. Actually there is no reason to ever leave work, you just 'rest'. and just because they say it won't work that way, it always ends up like that.

An FMS exemption to CAO48 can (and, in some cases, does) have hour restrictions in it.

[Kampai]

AerocatS2A,

I like the quote thingy, i must have missed that pprune class when i joined.

You are right about the hours thing, its hidden in the FMS document somewhere. I was a little too liberal in my overstatement! Thanks for picking up my total lack of understanding of the rules governing the issue of this exemption.

Out of interest what airlines in Oz currently use FMS?

[king oath]

Lucius..... Wayne..... whoever you are today, you may not be retired but they got you out of that management role. Just you keep spouting the rhetoric as though you are still there.

Take a holiday mate and relax, at your age.

[AerocatS2A]

I like the quote thingy, i must have missed that pprune class when i joined.
Just type [ quote ] and [ /quote ] on either side of the quoted material (without the spaces.) If you want it to say "Originally posted by xxxxxx" then make the first tag [ quote=xxxxxx ]. Or you can just click on the "Quote" button on the lower right of the post you're quoting.


Out of interest what airlines in Oz currently use FMS?
I have no idea. I don't think it's in wide use yet is it?