KEGUN 1D arrivals for EGGP on 09

[10002level]

A quick question concerning the descent profile for the KEGUN 1D arrival when operating into EGGP, particularly with reference to runway 09.

The normal profile requirement is for FL200 20 before MONTY which is not a problem: with zero wind the descent profile works out about FL160 at this point. With a strong tailwind it is obviously much lower. When approaching FL200 we are transferred to MAN for further descent which is usually a stepped descent due to airspace considerations with the result being that the aircraft will be 4,000 feet high on the profile at FL100 - sometimes much higher. At this stage I would normally ask if there is any speed limitation to facilitate loosing the height, to which the answer is usually "standard speeds". Upon transferring to LPL approach the speed restriction is usually removed without having to ask. The problem is that with a strong tailwind the speed restriction imposed by MAN can result in extra track miles being required.

Is the instruction from MAN ATC to fly standard speeds a requirement of MAN ATC for the descent from FL100 to FL60, or is it that MAN have to hand the aircraft over to LPL ATC at 250 kts accepting the fact that the aircraft will be high on the profile?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[055166k]

10002level
Surprised you have no answer yet, I'm at Swanwick so not qualified to respond in detail. There is no substitute for talking with both the Liverpool and Manchester controllers to explain the problem....if I were to receive a request to maintain high speed to get the height off I would be considering the overall traffic situation and possible need to sequence.....I am aware that a jet doing 250knots clean is almost a glider as far as losing height fast is concerned.
Southampton have restricted airspace and one method that they have perfected is to drop traffic below the Controlled airspace base and provide a RAS for those aircraft that can accept it.....otherwise it seems impossible to operate with so little regulated airspace available. But....big But....very few controllers may be willing to reduce the amount of CAS protection afforded both the aircraft and the controller without over-riding necessity; by that I mean that some ATC units have no option. Some combinations of ATC radar and/or displays and/or coverage may preclude the provision of such a service, as may overall workload.
Although I did 5 years at Liverpool, later at Manchester and now at Swanwick, my knowledge is out of date. I hope you get a reply soon.

[10002level]

055166k,

Thanks for your reply. I too am a little surprised not to have had an authorative reply as yet. I will give it a few more days and if nothing is forthcoming I will email one of the controllers directly. However I asked the question publicly as I am sure I am not the only one who wonders about this.

[JustaFew]

The only specific mention in the MATS part 2 Liverpool with reference to KEGUN & TIPOD arrivals about speed is, ' An aircraft entering the hold is required to be at 210kts or less at the SLP to avoid overshooting the entry and possible routeing outside CAS'.
Some Liverpool ATCOs may say no ATC speed restriction, some say standard speed (which is usually due to sequencing), others may make no mention. Based on what pilots tell me, lifting the speed restriction helps to get the height off.
If you need to loose the height faster, make that request to MAN ACC explaining why. The sooner planes are lower, the sooner they are clean of other traffic, and the sooner they are transfered to LPL. It is also something worth mentioning to ATC management for feedback to ATCOs.

[the hunted one]

Sorry no-one has responded to this so far. There's a lot going on at EGGP, and probably people have been too busy job-hunting to look at PPRuNe! ;)

The speed instructions seems to vary depending on who is on at Manch and Liverpool, and also how hard they are working at the time. The Manch controller is supposed to ensure that a/c comply with the speed profile before handing them over, unless they coordinate otherwise. Some will look at EGGP's traffic situation, and if there is nothing ahead, approve high-speed anyway (I think they usually tell the pilot to advise us of this on first contact, because they always seem to). Some will request permission for high speed when making the phone call for the release, as in "RYR #### descending to 60, released passing MONTY, is high speed OK?" for example. And some simply tell them standard speed, probably because the a/c has requested it AFTER the release phone call has been made to Liverpool. On the flip-side of the coin, some Liverpool controllers will spot that the a/c is high during the release call and offer high speed to the Manch Controller then. Or even if the a/c is not high, if there is a significant gap ahead of him, some will offer high-speed to Manch anyway. But as in any system with humans, everyone does things a little differently.

So that is why it seems a bit piecemeal. Unfortunately, it is the downside of a fairly busy and a very busy airport being located so close to each other. It's always tight to get things in and out (oo-er missus), and it's very difficult to come up with a standard procedure to fit all eventualities. But at least at Liverpool, extra miles are usually fairly easy to provide. It's less fun when your Doncaster inbound 767 asks for 10 extra track miles on a sunny Summer's day... :{

Not sure if I explained that very well. Hope it makes sense!