UK-Brazil routes

[alexss]

I gather that the UK/Brazil bilateral air services agreement, which has long been one of the UK's most restrictive, has now been changed to double the number of flights.

Does anyone know which UK airline if any will use the UK frequencies? This must be a very profitable route for BA at the moment, if its fares and LF are anything to go by - I doubt they'll welcome the competition!

thanks

[airhumberside]

Virgin to Rio?

[apaddyinuk]

Well the BA rumour mill (and how we love some of the stories that come out of this place) has it that Sao Paulo will shortly be served with a dedicated terminator service while the Rio and Buenos Aires get their own non-stop services. Now...the question to be asked is where are the planes coming from????

[alexss]

That would be great if true, but sounds unlikely. BA has been withdrawing most of its Latin American routes in favour of sending passengers via Madrid on Iberia (which, from an SLF perspective, is not nice...)

[akerosid]

TAM, now Brazil's largest airline, is due to start to LHR from 28th October, with A330s. Whether that's in addition to Varig or on its own depends on, well, whether RG lasts that long. Certainly, TAM will give BA some competition, as its service product is said to be better than RG's, which has declined over the past few years (very little IFE on MD11s).

As for IB, I don't think that would be a very welcome; I've heard some very unfavourable comments about its inflight service to South America.

[essexboy]

England to get to Brazil. You have to go via Portugal and Spain or France:)

[mmeteesside]

Or use MyTravel

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

I've heard BA from LHR or LH via FRA are the better ways to travel to Brazil, though the RG 777s are ok if travelling club class.

[apaddyinuk]

AlphaWhiskyRomeo

Yeah but will they be around for much longer???

[BRISTOLRE]

big doubts if the LHR RG service will be around for much longer.
TAM dont yet seem to have offered any idea of fares or schedules. They keep saying "end of October.."

The MYT services could be good but are only seasonal and must be only single config to the north coast (Recife/Fortaleza). Maybe this ought to be considered all year round commercial.

Yes it will be interesting to see if BA throw any more capacity at South America. It has been rumoured...

[XSBaggage]

Fares and schedules available on TAM website, LHR route starting October 28th.

XSB

[Pembo330]

I use AF to Brasil and they're usually ok.

Daily 744s I think to Rio and Sao Paulo.

[BRISTOLRE]

Yes, further to my earlier post I have just viewed the TAM website.
A discussion forum on another website suggests the fares quoted are in the wrong currency. They do look extremely cheap to me..!!...

Any more truth or depth in VS commencing operations to Brazil?
Seems like a worthwhile venture subject to bilaterals.

When did AF goto B744 on the route? It was previously A340 and B772.

[XSBaggage]

Wow! They do seem very cheap. But surely if you bought them in reals they would have to honour that price? That has me thinking of another trip to Brazil before they realise their mistake!

XSB

[Pembo330]

AF was 744 to Rio last August when I last travelled it and still is today from what I can tell.

[Thomas_Cook_757-300]

Hi,

The MyTravel service to SSA is year round and is operated by an A330 with 49 Premiair Gold seats and the remainder being economy.

Thanks
Thomas_Cook_757-300

[WHBM]

The UK to Brasil route has been littered over the past half-century with a series of failed airline operations, of which British South American Airways was probably the first and the demise of Varig only the latest. It's not the gold mine route many think.

There's not a lot of high-yield business traffic, but in addition to traffic potential the instability of the local currencies has led to all sorts of difficulties getting funds back to the airline's base. And if you can't get at the money your passengers gave you, what's the point?

It's these same currency issues that have done down many Latin American airlines over the years.

Rio is no longer the main destination of choice in Brasil, what business traffic there is tends to be concentrated on Sao Paolo.

[DtyCln]

Flew to Santiago and Buenos Aires with LH Business Class last year on the A340-600. Outstanding A/C, outstanding service, significantly cheaper than BA and you can connect from any UK LH base essentially for free, and I'm a BA exec club member!

[XSBaggage]

But neither Santiago nor Buenos Aires are in Brazil!!! LH only do FRA-GRU if memory serves me correctly, with a B744.

XSB

[DtyCln]

Apologies, thought it was more of a South America question. LH are now twice a day FRA-GRU. The 340-600 continues to Santiago and the 744 flies on to EZE. Guess they are trying to split the capital cities between the 2 aircraft. Makes sense as both flights last year were completely full, especially in Business when the SCL went via EZE.

[alexss]

Even if mix is poor, I struggle to believe that the GRU/EZE route is not extremely profitable for BA at the moment, as its fares are so high compared to its other routes and also to other airlines to Latin America.

For example, from London, even off-peak the lowest BA economy return fare to GRU is £720 (£800 to EZE), and there are absolutely never any promotional offers. To the west coast of the US, roughly the same distance, in winter you can fly for about £300 return.

BA's business class fares are also much higher than any other airline operating Europe-Latin America flights. For example, from LON to EZE return, the minimum return fares I can find are:

BA - £2600
Iberia - £2000
Air France - £2100
Aerolineas Argentinas - £1600
Lufthansa - £1700

Despite BA's high fares, CAA stats show that the planes are full. High load factors and high fares together implies that demand is not being adequately served at the moment - and so there should be a gap in the market for TAM, and perhaps a second UK carrier, to fill.

[Standard Jet Dep]

Interesting this one. Has been discussed in the VS rumourmill. I did hear some staff from RG mention 2008. However right now we couldnt handle it at LHR its at saturation point already.
Personally I would love us to do it. It would be sooo virgin. Yes i did travel out there in May and the loads were very high on BA on the way back ended up being kicked off in GRU. Managed to scrape the last seats on the LH service to FRA. Economy in Rio is supposed to be on the up and up im sure it would be profitable.

Brgds

SJD

[BRISTOLRE]

A British Airways press release from this week stipulates that LHR-GRU-LHR will go to 10x times per week from 3rd December. There is a new daytime flight LHR-GRU on Tue/Thur/Sun's from December with a night return.
It doesnt say what aircraft will be used on the additional frequencies (or the flight number). This will be in addition to the daily BA246/247 returns flying LHR-GRU then which continues GRU-GIG/GRU-EZE alternate days.

Boosted BA Brazil, JFK and a new Calgary services will be worked by aircraft coming from a reduced MIA & IAD service plus conversions of at least 2x existing B763 to long haul configuration.

This then utilises the bilateral slots which are currently available.

[flyer55]

Does that mean the shuttle that LHR crew do to Houston is no longer being done ?

[MARKEYD]

The Houston shuttle that operates via Chicago is being moved to Detroit from the winter schedule and is being operated on the 767

[MarkD]

markeyd

it used to operate via IAD before ORD though right? Did they move it when BA kept getting threats against IAD services?

Looking at the GC distances DTW looks like a very good option - shorter than via IAD or ORD (though that takes no account of actual routings obviously)

[alexss]

Quite surprised by the timings for BA's additional LHR-GRU frequencies (which the website now says will be with a 744). A 12 hour day flight won't be very popular with business passengers, and if it's the leisure market they are after, Rio would have seemed a more logical destination.

Also this still leaves 4 weekly UK-Brazil slots for someone else - but a happy side effect for BA is that this stops VS or BMI providing a daily service, which they would need to compete for business pax.

[BRISTOLRE]

Let us not forget the cargo capacity made available with a B744.
It is a lucrative cargo route between UK & Brazil & vice versa, coupled with the potential demise of RG MD11 belly capacity ex-UK, this is also likely to generate good yields for BA World Cargo.

[ALLDAYDELI]

Fun & games last night, VRG using B767-300 on LHR-GRU service VRG8757 PP-VOJ.
Is this a first of Varig 767 at LHR?
Seems as LHR & FRA services remain operational at this time.

Pluna serving Madrid with B763. Is Pluna part of Varig? I seem to think so.

[WHBM]

Is this a first of Varig 767 at LHR?
No, they used a 767 last Wednesday 5 July at least, same airframe. It came through twice, to and from Copenhagen. As they had an MD-11 come through once last week as well as the 777s they have a truly mixed operation at the moment.

[malagajohn]

ALLDAYDELI

Varig still own 49 or maybe 50% of Pluna

Shareholding may be sold shortly to Conviasa of Venezuela if they can agree a price