Picket Pilot's

[LegsUpLucy]

I hear on the grape vine,that Flybe pilots are close to strike action;BA,Easy and even Ryanair guys & gals seek justice.As much as i'm against downing tools in the name of union requests,i feel there is a sea of change amongst the Pilot population in general.
Perhaps now we have come to a point in our evolution,as a collective force,to stop the abuse of our good natured willingness to fly,love and passion we have for our flying careers.Its time to end the abuse of our better nature.
I do feel the industry has been abusing its postion and has played on our weakness for sometime now,is it time to play hard????????
If this is what it takes to end the abuse,so be it,Solidarity to ALL..............:D

[Lucifer]

The Daily Mail will eat you alive if you strike.

Don't bother - there are other ways to achieve results, and you are in a market that has loads of low-timers who can't get jobs.

Market price signals say you are overpaid if qualified people with appropriate experience cannot get jobs...

[Hand Solo]

Well thats that then. If the Daily Mail don't like it then we'd best not do it.

[Lucifer]

And the rest of the media, passengers, your bank (if you paid for an ATPL), your wife/partner, all of the businesses who will use the competition otherwise etc etc.

If you don't remember what disasterous conequences unions had for the UK in the 70s, look at what work (nothing) the RMT tube staff do for their salary (lots more than an unqualified school leaver should earn).

ScotPilot - you know what I mean - don't be picky. There are many instructors, ATPLs, air taxi, contractors etc who are awaiting, and last of all the low timers at the bottom of the pile. Whose job prospects do YOU think will be hurt by your striking? Yes, the answer is all of the above, who are not yet "there" in the jet job.

[Sadly Cynical]

There are many instructors, ATPLs, air taxi, contractors etc who are awaiting, and last of all the low timers at the bottom of the pile.
I'm not sure you really understand what sort of experience is required to be the Captain of a A320/B737. The pilot community is starting to wake up to the fact that they are being squeezed to the point of compromised safety. At the same time it is clear that there is a shortage of experienced pilots. Add these two facts together and I think the result will be inevitable.

[fmgc]

Lucifer,

ScotPilot was not being picky. He makes a very valid point that you seem determined to miss.

It doesn't matter how many wannabees there out there with ATPLs and CPLs, if do not have jet time or command time then they are not appropriately qualified to replace the potential strikers.

Airlines have systematically eroded pilot terms & conditions whilst making them fly harder, almost up to the CAP371 limits, with fatiguing work patterns and major roster disruption caused mainly by the lack of crews.

[Nov71]

This is happening across white collar Industry; mainly 'voluntary' unpaid extra hours to stay in the game.
Unions / Management are required to balance the other, else their demands get out of control. White collar workers used to negotiate their own Contracts, now it is take it or leave it. Expect the Civil Service unions to flex their wings soon.

NASA selected a monkey & a man for the first spaceflight. After launch they both opened their sealed orders -
Monkey - control craft during flight, manouvere, operate radio & follow ground commands, land $500M craft safely.
Man - during flight - feed the monkey!

[Lucifer]

I am quite aware - Sadly Cynical - as I am a pilot as well. Refer to my first post again - there are qualified and experienced people without jobs as well and your silly strike actions are not going to help anyone in that position or the ones at the bottom of the pile.

[3Greens]

Lucifer

you are of course correct that there are indeed many licence holders out there. However, in the event of a company strike it's not quite that easy to replace a type rated 777 Capt. Even if BA (for instance) sourced 1000 type rated and experianced pilots, these pilots would then have to complete a BA OPC in the simulator by a CAA approved trainer who is listed on the BA TRTO. Bloody difficult when all the trainers are on the picket line eh?
Oh and i couldn't care less what the daily mail or any other rag thinks...they already think all pilots are on £100K+ and drive Ferraris anyway.

[On_the_bug]

There will be no strikes - just look what has been happening at easy. They talk tough then settle for a mediocre pay rise with no agreements on rostering/pensions/lifestyle or anything else whilst their bosses continue to stuff their pockets full of cash.

At easy in particular the CC are very gullible, believing that they can obtain lifestyle improvements at a time when the company are cancelling 100s of flights due to lack of crew.

If we pilots were clever then we'd be managers: 9-5, Monday to Friday and a big fat bonus at the end of the year. There will be no strikes.

[puddle-jumper2]

There doesn't need to be strikes.
FlyBe (like many airlines) runs on favours by the crew. Take away the favours and 'work to rule' will cause enough problems to make the managers sit up.

[Hirsutesme]

Spot on puddlejumper2. Too many people think industrial action is all about strikes. There are far more imaginative ways of taking action which can have the desired effect.

[-8AS]

Strike action should always be the last action taken by a body of workers regardless of industry. Many other options are available to alter terms and conditions, and these must be exhausted before strike action is contemplated.

[52049er]

I reckon a work to rule will be enough at BA too. Management have admitted they rely on pilots working beyond contractual limits to keep the flying plan working.

And to keep our goodwill they are

- trying to remove a weeks leave from this year's entitlement

- pocketing hundreds of thousands in bonuses

- taking about 40% of my contractual pension to pay for said bonuses

- forcing people to report for work on days off to reach bonus thresholds

- threatening people with dismissal if they report sick

- leaving crew to wait on rainy tarmacs for a bus 'cos they dont get 'measured' on pick up timings whilst sending aggressive letters if you are 1 (yes one) minute late for your bus to the a/c

- tell half truths to the rest of the company about pilots entitlements to make sure we are split about the pension.

...etc etc.

All of the above are wholly true with no exaggeration. Please give me a reason why I should not work to my contract as a result. I will, of course, take stronger industrial action if my union requests. Ahh, the sound of chickens coming home.....

[iflyhighinthesky]

and it is not just the pilots that need to be sorting out T+C and pay. I think the industry as a whole is squeezing and pushing their employees as far as possible for limited money. Dispatch, loaders, pilots, ops, something has to give. Maybe we should all club together? Finally setting some standards for the future, to make sure we do not carry on the path we are now going,
It is a slippery slope we are on, (ground ops especially) but i also recognise what stresses pilots are going through to.
:uhoh:

[ATIS]

Why would The Daily Crapper eat flybe alive. They must be making a mint from Flybe's full spread advertising campaign.

Good luck to you all in Flybe, sorry to hear that things havn't changed at Flybe. I decided to walk after all the oneway favours that I did.

[MercenaryAli]

Nothing changes! This was Manx Airlines/British Regional 10 years ago and no doubt British Midland 10 years before that. We, the pilots, are our own worst enemy because if you quit TRUST me there will be 10 'wannabes' lining up to take your job for less money and worse conditions!
But saying that I wish all at FlyBe (ex Jersey European) all the best. I was amongst the first Captains to start JEA off when we were based in Jersey back in the early 80's, when the owner/boss was a used car salesman - nothing it appears has changed! :ugh:

[Lucifer]

I don't suggest that anyone could possibly be replaced so quickly in a strike - I simply state that it is a selfish action - regardless of the state of industrial relationships with management - and will hurt those lower down the food chain ultimately.

As noted below by others, there are far more effective routes that can be taken.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There will be no strikes - just look what has been happening at easy. They talk tough then settle for a mediocre pay rise with no agreements on rostering/pensions/lifestyle or anything else whilst their bosses continue to stuff their pockets full of cash.
At easy in particular the CC are very gullible, believing that they can obtain lifestyle improvements at a time when the company are cancelling 100s of flights due to lack of crew.


I do not know if 'On_the_bug' is actually an easyJet pilot but I suspect not. If he is, then I am dissapointed at his lack of grasp of what has gone on. Like many people who know little of the real situation he has got his facts wrong. The 'mediocre pay rise' was actually 6% this year (backdated) and 4% next year plus the restoration of the FOs loyalty bonus. As far as I know that is the best deal that any airline has been awarded this year and indeed significantly better than nearly all other sectors of UK industry.

The decision not to tie the current pay deal to rostering agreements was a deliberate one that had virtually total support from the BALPA members within the company. The reason for this was to avoid protracted and messy negotiations where we ended up selling roster deals for cash. The view taken by the majority of people was that you should keep the 2 sets of negotiations separate, and I for one am delighted that is what happened.

Having now won the best deal in the UK airline industry this year, the second and probably more important issue is now being addressed - rostering. The legendary 5/2-5/4 system is universally unpopular and is being debated as we speak. The CC have placed before the company a number of demands which, if not met, will result in an escalation of the dispute. There is a widespread recognition among the pilots that the summer battle is lost and due to leave etc it may be another year before we have a sensible rostering agreement in place. I am one of those who think that trials will have to take place at different bases before introducing new arrangements and I also think that we may end up with slightly different agreements for different bases. The 'one size fits all' approach is increasingly unworkable and I think that will be addressed. The unwise voices crying for strike action now have fortunately been held at bay while more rational individuals actually sort out a workable solution.

Finally, 'On_the_bug' has stated that the CC are gullible. I am not on the CC and have not day-to-day contact with them, but they have done magnificently given an almost impossible group of people they had to deal with. Like I said, this will take about a year to have a decent deal in place and we should not kid ourselves otherwise. The reason we have flights being cancelled is our managers failed to recruit the right number of people at the right time. The error was then compounded by failing to train the requisite number of training captains to train the massive backlog of new entrants. Not to worry - we are now recruiting direct-entry training captains despite having delayed the training courses of our homegrown trainers. I hope that our CEO will be taking a great interest in what has happened and act accordingly - it was all totally avoidable.

Nonetheless, I am confident that when the summer shambles abates, we will have a long term agreement in place to change the current rostering deal. Our CC have done and continue to do a great job in difficult circumstances.

[fmgc]

NSF,

Your comments are a little misleading.

the 6% includes a 2% salary sacrifice for the "smart" pension.

I can not understand why the deal was not a RPI + x% deal. If RPI ends up being 3.5% next year (which is not too unrealistic) the pay deal is rubbish.

I was hoping that there was going to be more of push to set the scene for next year for the rest of the UK airline industry.

[fmgc]

Whilst I don't sgree with Lucifer's sentiments I have to say that he raises an interesting situation.

How many CPL's fATPLs are there in the UK who are seeking that first step into an airline?

[Kraut]

NORMAN STANLEY F
I agree on your statements, except:............
I also think that we may end up with slightly different agreements for different bases. The 'one size fits all' approach is increasingly unworkable.........
If we start splitting special issues, where do we realy start and where do we end? The danger of splitting up the pilot community itself is immense! If considered even, only very, very careful!? Dangerous approach.
I. e., not everybody is willing to accept that DTM/ORY have a nite curfue, not everybody understands, that London bases have a different "rest period"!?
FMGC
your comments are a little misleading, too!
Who is opting out of the "pension issue" gets 6% salary increase!
How do you predict 3,5% RPI? Is that an official number or "selfmade"?
Sorry, a little OFF Topic, but had to be said!

[fmgc]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=19

Doesn't seem that 3.5% is too far off the mark.

[cargo boy]

As far as I know that is the best deal that any airline has been awarded this year and indeed significantly better than nearly all other sectors of UK industry.
Not quite NSF but not bad either. I think you'll find the latest Virgin Atlantic pay deal probably eclipses the easyJet one. From what I can find out it is a rise of something like 12% over 18 months and they still are contracted to fly only 750 hours a year. Add to that an increase in Loss of Licence protection, health insurance that covers their basic salary AND their hourly flight pay and improved pension.

Latest figures I can get hold of show the following pay scales for Virgin Atlantic flight crew as at 1st july 2006:

Year 1 F/O: £44,624 plus £16.90 per block hour = £57,299
Year 1 Cpt: £74,291 plus £26.00 per block hour = £93,791

Year 10 F/O: £57,00 plus £16.90 per block hour = £69,675
Year 10 Cpt: 92,779 plus £26.00 per block hour = £112,279

Basic and hourly pay goes up again in January 2007 and july 2007 respectively.

Loss of Licence insurance as follows:

From July 2006; F/O: £113,375 Cpt: £175,000; From July 2007; F/O: £130,000 Cpt: £200,000.

I'd join them, if I could, only for the 750 hours per year. Everything else is icing on the cake.

And before the detractors and anti-union muppets jump in, this level of pay is only achievable by having very high Balpa membership, a very talented negotiating team and an airline that is profitable.

[A4]

Under UK law, provided that a union has followed the correct procedures, striking is not illegal and therefore you cannot be sacked / fired / dismissed / persecuted etc. The Company would therefore be unable to "replace" a striking worker.

On the "easy" deal.... I think it was a reasonable result under the circumstances. It puts a two year line capt on about £85k - that's not too bad and it is a first step - there will be negotiation in future years.......

The next issue is lifestyle and it does appear there is a glimmer of recognition on the part of the company that they need to address this issue if they don't want a repeat next year, of this years "problems" - which I think are completely unforgiveable and those responsible should pay. :mad:

Good luck to all parties in your battles - but keep it real.

A4

[niknak]

I work at a UK airport where Flybe, BMI and others have a major presence and I know that the crews (front and back!) work bloody hard for what they earn.
Unfortunately any industrial action would only affect the passengers and all the hard work done to get the routes up and running so successfully would be undone within a few days.

I only hope that any problems can be resolved without resorting to the need for industrial action.

[A4]

NikNak,

This is the problem. Pilots, as a whole, LOVE their job. It's a pretty unique way to earn a living. We have worked hard to get to where we are and are mostly a pretty pragmatic bunch who like to get the task done and provide a good, safe service to the travelling public (Well I do at least :O )

We also realise that pi$$ing off the people who pay our wages (pax not management!) is not a good idea.... BUT there comes a point when enough is enough. Being taken advantage of because of our "can do" attitude only sells ourselves down the river. The "management" need to understand and APPRECIATE us for the ASSET we are. Brinkmanship is the order of the day, but any managment worth its salt must realise that a strike would be disasterous. However, the longer they string it out means the planes keep flying. This is perhaps why the current negotiations on lifestyle in easy have a deadline of mid July.

This era of middle management bonuses, achievable only by screwing the pilots / cabin crew needs to be bought into check. I have no problem with bonuses per se but not at the expense of fellow workers. I'm tired of management talk about teamwork and "our people" being the most important asset and then proceding to shaft the staff...... Cut the crap, start treating people with a bit of respect and recognising the Professionals for what they are.Only award bonuses to deserving people - and cut out the deadwood (which may have started to happen at easy today.......)

A4 :hmm:

[citizensmith]

Lucifer
Get with the program!
If you're gonna talk b*****ks then don't bother saying anything at all. You've already indirectly admitted you're scared of you're wife/partner so you wouldn't be much good to us on the picket line at Flybe.....not that it's ever going to happen.
If you followed the original thread you may start to understand that causing a little short term pain to the company....hurting them in the pocket...is what it's all about. Do you honestly think that if the schedule goes tits up today then they're gonna hire 350 new pilots tomorrow when they can't crew the aircraft with the crews they have now.
It's not selfish, it's called playing them at their own game.....Muppet

[Lucifer]

I hope you are more relaxed on the flightdeck.
I shall refrain from commenting back - needless to say that I have no fear of anyone and have more than a little financial acumen...unlike some.

Lucifer

[Hand Solo]

Am I alone in failing to see the connection between pilots striking to improve their conditions and making life harder for up and coming fATPLs? The aircraft will always need pilots. By preventing companies working us all to 900 hours without fail we increase the number of jobs available. By improving pay we improve the ability of the fATPLs to pay off their huge training debts. By resisting outsourcing of work to foreign carriers we increase the number of jobs based in the UK. These all sound like good things to me.:confused:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

cargo boy - My understanding of the big rise at Virgin is that it was actually last year's deal. From my conversations with a friend, who is a Virgin pilot, I understand the deal covering this coming year is actually only just above inflation. Nonetheless, the overall Virgin terms and conditions won by BALPA over the last few years are simply excellent and are testimony to the power of responsible union representation. Other airlines, including easyJet, can only look on in slight envy at the terms and conditions you enjoy.

I understand that Virgin has about 98% BALPA membership and I am told that easyJet has peaked at just under 80% - but I cannot verify that. When our troubles kicked off last year we were at nearer 50% and we got an offer less than RPI (2.5% and not 3.5% as was suggested earlier). Simply through the hard work of our CC and solid support from our pilots, a good deal was won. The 6% stated earlier is accurate in that it is your choice if you put it on the pension or not. There is a direct relationship between levels of union representation and the deals that arre finally won. I see the deal that we have won as only a starting point to a wholesale and comprehensive rethink of terms and conditions at the LCCs. We are competing in a completely different world to Virgin but it is nonetheless in everyone's interest that all BALPA-represented airlines fight a hard war.

[A and C]

Don't strike unless it is the last resort
Use work to rule & no day off working as a tool ,it is the low cost option to the workforce
The threat of a strike is almost as good as a strike to bring pressure to the management
If you do strike use NO pickets, these are only of any use to stop the use of unskilled workers.
Dont use pickets! it just letts the management know that you have no money coming in.
Don't picket, get a temp job, drive a taxi or something because you are now in an economic war with the management
Don't picket even if you have no other job the management will think that you have some other form of income if you are not outside the gate!

[Re-Heat]

Am I alone in failing to see the connection between pilots striking to improve their conditions and making life harder for up and coming fATPLs? The aircraft will always need pilots. By preventing companies working us all to 900 hours without fail we increase the number of jobs available. By improving pay we improve the ability of the fATPLs to pay off their huge training debts. By resisting outsourcing of work to foreign carriers we increase the number of jobs based in the UK. These all sound like good things to me.
1) Company revenue stream is lost, lowering ability to pay any expenses including salaries, resulting in cutback to expansion plans and/or offshoring of jobs to non-union bases.
2) Salary base is higher for no increase in productivity (assuming you are at 900 hrs already), resulting in lower available cash for more salaries.
3) Reduction in working hours reduces productivity for company resulting in higher cost of their capital, resulting in diminished ability to expand to allow recruitment.

So although an operation not using 900 hours for all staff results in a requirement for more pilots to fly the existing fleet, it lowers the ability to expand beyond that existing fleet and provokes offshoring that you claim not to want.

Though it would be incorrect to suggest that 900 hours was designed either as a limit or is appropriate for the LH operations we now see, it is there and it would be naive to see it not used by whomever can use it. What would be more productive would be to promote the use of more scientific maxima that are not a hard limit that merges LH and SH requirements.

Cash is not on tap from a company.

[Hirsutesme]

No, cash is generated py passengers, carried by pilots.
The problem, as well as the many outlined above, is using CAP371 as a target, rather than a minima, allowed by the weakness of CAA, and lack of any political direction, and the "weakness" of pilots

[Re-Heat]

No, cash is generated py passengers, carried by pilots
So nobody else works in the airline then? Can't see what different you have to say than I, other than an exceptional misunderstanding of your position in the company as a pilot as its sole breadwinner - correct me if I am wrong.

[Hand Solo]

1) Company revenue stream is lost, lowering ability to pay any expenses including salaries, resulting in cutback to expansion plans and/or offshoring of jobs to non-union bases.
2) Salary base is higher for no increase in productivity (assuming you are at 900 hrs already), resulting in lower available cash for more salaries.
3) Reduction in working hours reduces productivity for company resulting in higher cost of their capital, resulting in diminished ability to expand to allow recruitment

So the whole thrust of your argument is that pilots can't be paid more because it'll hurt the companies ability to expand. Tell me you're BA management because thats exactly the line they trot out. It's not the employees job to fund the expansion of the company, it's the managements

So nobody else works in the airline then?
Au contraire! Too many people work in the airline! In BA we have a far higher number of staff per aircraft than our competitors, and that includes other 'innovative' airlines like Virgin. Its the other people in the airline who cost the money - the dead wood, the hangers on and the inept managers who cost us millions.

[Hirsutesme]

So nobody else works in the airline then? Can't see what different you have to say than I, other than an exceptional misunderstanding of your position in the company as a pilot as its sole breadwinner - correct me if I am wrong.

Of course not. This discussion was about pilots. Obviously other staff make a contribution.

However, pilots are in an unique position of strength, if they choose to exercise it.

[cargo boy]

cargo boy - My understanding of the big rise at Virgin is that it was actually last year's deal. From my conversations with a friend, who is a Virgin pilot, I understand the deal covering this coming year is actually only just above inflation.
Just had it confirmed and been shown the agreement document. In July the f/o hourly pay goes up 24% from £13.66 to £18.26. Basic pay goes up 2.5% in January and it's all pensionable. LoL goes up as I indicated. PHI covers both basic pay and hourly pay. There's a few other things but I think that as a 750 hour a year airline they have done pretty good this year again, considering that they get free food, uniform, 35+ days leave, day off payments if they want to help out, +15% from the company pension contribution, PHI, and days off down route that don't count towards their yearly days off.

A classic example of what a high Balpa membership and a CC that is working with the company to make it a win-win situation all around unlike some Mick airlines where you are really afraid of the boss and his henchmen and even thinking about collective bargaining is considered a heinous crime. Record profits just announced show that it can be done.

Good luck anyway and get your CV in as they seem to like ex-easyJet pilots from what I've heard.

[On_the_bug]

The legendary 5/2-5/4 system is universally unpopular and is being debated as we speak. The CC have placed before the company a number of demands which, if not met, will result in an escalation of the dispute. There is a widespread recognition among the pilots that the summer battle is lost and due to leave etc it may be another year before we have a sensible rostering agreement in place.
Excuse me for pointing out that it was your Company Council who recommended the "legendary" 5254 system in the first place! And you are saying it will be another year before you get a "sensible" agreement in place?

Perhaps NSF you have low expectations - 3.5% in real terms over two years is mediocre, would you not agree?

[Re-Heat]

So the whole thrust of your argument is that pilots can't be paid more because it'll hurt the companies ability to expand.
No - the pot is of a fixed size and your being paid more does not alone increase the size of the pot in any way through a concurrent productivity gain.

Au contraire! Too many people work in the airline! In BA we have a far higher number of staff per aircraft than our competitors, and that includes other 'innovative' airlines like Virgin. Its the other people in the airline who cost the money - the dead wood, the hangers on and the inept managers who cost us millions.
I think everyone knows that to be true - what is not true is that (a) pilots are the only productive element of the workforce - how do you think you would cope without IT integrating the GDSs who sell the tickets to the airline itself?, and (b) that industrial disputes from another sector would not equally stop airline operations.

Are you a Labour backbencher, or maybe RMT rather than BALPA?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Excuse me for pointing out that it was your Company Council who recommended the "legendary" 5254 system in the first place! And you are saying it will be another year before you get a "sensible" agreement in place?
Perhaps NSF you have low expectations - 3.5% in real terms over two years is mediocre, would you not agree?

On the bug - having established you are not an easyJet pilot, your ignorance of our situation is more understandable. I think you are right that the CC recommended 5254. The alternative was random rostering or a return to 63. Given those choices their recommendation was quite understandable. The simple fact was that at that time we had low membership and got a duff deal. We now have high membership and will now get a good deal - that is theway it all works. The year timescale is my best guess of how quickly the problems can be reasonably resolved.

Regarding low expectations, I am not sure what planet you are on - maybe you are a wannabe in some fantasy airline. In the real world this is a fantastic deal. Even Virgin did not get the same basic rise as we did. Like I said,easyJet´s percentage gain is one of the best deals anywhere in the UK industrial scene this year. Regarding Cargo Boy´s very helpful figures, the guys at Virgin are doing great - well done to them. Their terms and conditions represent an aiming point for us all and I unreservedly rejoice in all they have achieved. Nonetheless, their basic rise was 2.5% which gives some perspective to ours. We are in the low cost sector facing massive competition on all fronts and still we got a good deal. There is a lot more water to go under the bridge at easyJet and there will always be the ex-Danair annt-union whiners who will hate BALPA until their dying day. For the rest of us, we should rejoice at our initial successes without losing sight of the greater prizes out there still to be won.

[fmgc]

If refer to Krauts question to me on the previous page:

How do you predict 3,5% RPI? Is that an official number or "selfmade"?
Sorry, a little OFF Topic, but had to be said!

RPI up to 3.6% (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=19)

Sorry but it had to be said.