The MCC Debate: CTC or elsewhere ??

[Trislander]

I, like some of my coursemates, am approaching the end of my CPL/IR and we're now thinking about where to do the MCC. As far as it has been made clear to us, we have two options, either fork out £5,700 for the MCC scheme at CTC whereby, if successful, they place you with an airline like EZY on a docked salary or do the MCC somewhere else like BCFT, pay less than half the CTC price at £2,400 and apply for jobs like everyone else and get a proper salary?

Personally I'm not after a job at EZY anyway, but what does everyone else think about this?

Thanks in anticipation,

Tri

[Sky Wave]

I think the question is, who do you want to work for? If you aspire to fly a big jet, I believe that CTC is the best way. If the airlines are not your thing then take the cheaper option. I personally do not see CTC as an MCC course. I see them as a recruitment agency that just happens to have an MCC course as part of their selection process.

Just remember that getting that first job is extremely difficult, and the great thing about CTC is that everyone that is up to the standards gets placed into the holding pool, will get a type rating paid for and will get free line experience whilst getting paid a small allowance. Once your six months is up, assuming you get offered a permanent contract you will be on full FO pay.

When you apply to the few airlines that take low houred pilots you're application may get thrown out by computerised systems and they are only ever looking for a certain number of pilots. You may also end up having to self fund your type rating and you could spend the next two years waiting for the non-Easyjet job offer. That being the case you would have lost out on 2 years flying experience and two years worth of seniority at you preferred airline, plus you could have paid a fortune for a type rating and line experience.

I suggest you take whichever route that gets you onto the paid airline ladder the quickest and I believe that will be CTC.

SW

[Deano777]

I thought CTC refunded about 2k as well if you get posted with an airline? correct me if I am wrong

Dean

[no sponsor]

Beggars can't be choosers. Unless you have a bunch of Chief Pilots knocking on your door, I would opt for the CTC route. You can always leave after 500 hrs and apply to BA (as most cadets seem to be doing).

[dimitrispa31]

Intercockpit the best training provider

[GusHoneybun]

Personally I'm not after a job at EZY anyway, but what does everyone else think about this?


Then why spend the extra money on some fancy training. The MCC is just a tick in the box designed by some doddering old bufties who want to be able to still pick up a fat cheque for waffling on for 2 weeks after they lose their medical. Find the cheapest course, generally on a static king air sim, turn up, smile, nod your head knowledgably for 2 weeks, then pick up the certificate and promptly forget everything you learnt in the sim. The real lesson in MCC and CRM starts on day one of your line training.

[Mooney12]

The MCC is just a tick in the box designed by some doddering old bufties who want to be able to still pick up a fat cheque for waffling on for 2 weeks after they lose their medical. Find the cheapest course, generally on a static king air sim, turn up, smile, nod your head knowledgably for 2 weeks, then pick up the certificate and promptly forget everything you learnt in the sim.

Great adive GusHoneybun :ugh:

Here's me thinking the mcc course was born out of the fact that so many accidents were being caused by a lack of "mcc" on the flightdeck......

My advice is to find an mcc course with a good reputation, one which you think you'll take the most away from...not simply the cheapest.

ps don't forget it all once you leave.....:rolleyes:

[GusHoneybun]

Here's me thinking the mcc course was born out of the fact that so many accidents were being caused by a lack of "mcc" on the flightdeck......

No. This pre requisit MCC course was thought up for some reason by the JAA. CRM and MCC courses have been going on for a lot longer as you quite rightly point out after a series of accidents where attributed directly to the lack of co-ordination on the flight deck. They have been and still are run by your employer. In fact, you join any company these days and you will be given a CRM course as part of your induction.


My advice is to find an mcc course with a good reputation, one which you think you'll take the most away from...not simply the cheapest.

I fail to see what you gain from this MCC course that you can't learn with a £9.99 book from amazon and a few orange crates with a few dials painted on and a broom for a yoke.

[Gillespie]

I’m sorry but I feel I must interject here…

In my view the MCC is a vital part of training. I learnt an incredible wealth of information, techniques and teamwork skills from my MCC course.

It is my advice to not see this course as a tick in the box, do not just “find the cheapest course, turn up, smile and nod your head….”bla bla.

I’m very very lucky and honoured to have been selected for the CTC AQC scheme, which means I’ll have to do another MCC course. Hey! No probs…People underestimate this course and just how vital it is. It really does prepare you as a pilot to start thinking according to SOPs, so no matter who you fly with, you’ll know what they’re thinking, what they’re about to do and when they’re going to do it.

If you want to fly a jet with low hours in your log book, then there is simply no better way in that CTC.

Cheers.

Ps. Forgot to mention, please don't think it's a case of "ooh I'll think I'll go to CTC for the MCC", pay and get a place. I think the current success rate is circa 6% for the ATP scheme. It's a tough selection process.

[Lee Frost]

GushoneyBun,


Are you also on this forum as WWW :}

:) LF

[benhurr]

MCC a vital part of training - sorry that is complete and utter rubbish.

If an MCC is so vital why is it necessary to do a CRM course before you start line flying?

An MCC is vital to start an initial type rating course.

Who has failed an MCC course?

As others have said, getting that first job is tough - it took me 3 years. All that my current employer cared about was that I had the certificate to show when I did my type rating.

"Where?" "What sim?" were not questions which were asked.

You ask any pilot employed since the introduction of the JAR and they will all say the same thing about the MCC:

"It was really great fun after the stress of the IR. Yes I did learn from it, but nowhere nearly as much as from my first line flight."

[mad_jock]

I thought that the MCC concept was originally designed so that it was a course which should be run by an employer as a pre-type course using company sop's.

The training industry to some extents are to blame for this as they discovered very quickly it was more money for old rope using there FNPT2 and semi retired local TRI/TRE. The airlines wern't going to pay for this if they could help it. So it just became another course to have before applying.

The ground schools side of things is basically a repeat of Human performance. This is again redone on your intial CRM course with a new company. So you have to watch the teneriff video's again.

And to be honest each company has its own style of CRM. As can be seen on other threads on PPrune, the asking the captain which sectors he wants thread comes to mind. The skills you really require as an FO arn't actually whats taught on the MCC.

You would proberly get the concept of the MCC across better doing a top gear style driving around a course with the driver blindfolded and his pax telling him which way to steer etc. The flying side of things is fun and its proberly your first exposure to something which has a decent bit of power on it. BUT the flying is meant to be a very small part of what your meant to learn. The autopilot will be engaged for most of the course.

Choose the MCC that is the cheapest for you taking into account HOTAC. Its just a very expensive bit of paper which comes out for 5 mins while the TRI/TRE checks your paper work at the begining of a type rating. Then it gets sent in with your first type rating. Then I don't know what we are ment to do with it. Mine is in the back of my license folded up. Why they don't keep it at GAtwick in our files on the first type I don't know.

The MCC is a very good idea which has been corrupted for the training industry to make yet more money on.

[Pilot Pete]

Regarding MCC, cheapest is best, for the reasons already so ably menitoned by benhurr and mad_jock.

IF however, you want to get into an airline via CTC then you have to do their AQC course, which includes MCC. This was introduced as a clever way to get new pilots to pay CTC for their MCC course (plus more for what is virtually the old LOFT course), instead of CTC just running a sim assessment, which they used to do. It also serves them better because they get to see you over a number of days rather than just 2 hrs. The crux of the matter is that you pay for all this sim time and instruction. If you don't come up to scratch, then you walk away with an MCC certificate and several more hours than the non CTC pilot in a sim (not that that means anything to an airline).

You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

PP