JSF in the news again

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Source: News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19573323-29277,00.html)


THE government should consider buying alternative warplanes to avoid problems with the $16 billion Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project and shore up Australia's defence capability, Labor said.

Defence documents reveal the JSF, which is being built in the US, is beset by serious software problems, according to newspaper reports.
The documents also warn a cockpit display system was so bad it had to be almost completely redesigned.

The Federal Government planned to spend $16 billion on 100 of the fighter jets to replace F-111s and FA-18s, due to be retired by 2012.

Opposition defence spokesman Robert McClelland today said problems with the new fighter could delay delivery of the jets until 2017, leaving a gap in Australia's defence capability.

"There's evidence that there's problems with software integration which is a very significant problem indeed," he told Sky News.

"Inevitably it will lead to cost blowouts, inevitably time delays and ultimately perhaps even compromised capability.

"Australia's security ... depends on our maintaining regional air superiority.

"If there is any delay in receiving the aircraft it will mean that we'll have a gap in that superiority."

Mr McClelland said the Government should consider acquiring an existing advanced stealth jet, the F-22 Raptor, to avoid problems caused by production delays and flaws with the JSF.

"The minister's got to have a cold, hard look and not this naive optimism that the Government seems to be going on with," he said.

"There is an alternative available, it's proven and certainly for the first phase (of the JSF project) we believe the government should play it safe and acquire the proven alternative, the F-22 Raptor.

"If we don't have the Joint Strike Fighters in service by 2015 there'll be some real problems.

"We just can't avoid the risks associated with a massive developmental project such as this."


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Looks as though someone has got their hands on a DMO simple risk management plan and has drawn a bow.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I just dont see a need, in terms of local threats, that requires more than F111 delivers...a completely overhauled F111 with new dis and dat.

F18 is one of the great Fighters of all time. I don't think they are redundant yet.

Both could fly on a few extra years if required.

Lots is made of the potential capabilities of future enemy aircraft, usually made in Russia, but that never eventuates...and generally because potential enemies don't have the pilots capable of using the aircraft they have...Iraq being a classic example...the big giries blowses didn't even get airborne the second time around because they knew the US F15s would wipe them out to a man.

Any real threat to our current technology is so far out as to be unrealistic...we are NOT going to be fighting anybody alone. As it stands we can beat Indonesia with half the F111s we currently own.

What are the realistic local long term threats?

JSF is a waste of money.

Lots of F15Es would provide our knucks with play toys for a long time....at a fraction of the cost.

Anybody who says we need to be a credible partner to US forces in a future 'international adventure' is crazy...does anyone really think the Australian public will EVER let an Australian Govt take us to war with those morons again?

We need a credible force to project extreme violence out to 2000nm from our NW borders and that is all we need...the cold war is over...as long as we can vaporise a terrorist training camp in the Indonesian archepelego we are pretty well covered.

[Jet_A_Knight]

does anyone really think the Australian public will EVER let an Australian Govt take us to war with those morons again?


Yep :{

[lek]

Yeah let's form a committee to investigate whether the toy plastic Austrian rifles we issue to the troops are ok instead of the proven in actual combat M16s and M4s, (Israel and US)

While we're there, lets see if the F16I (Israeli adaptation of the US Classic) (Oh yeah.... for use in a hot dry climate eg NT) might be of use.

But what do you say? Each system must be proven for Oz.

Ok, buy it use it change it, stop dithering.

lek

[rmcdonal]

(Oh yeah.... for use in a hot dry climate eg NT)
Hot yes, Dry only half the time.

[Aussie]

They should pull there finger out and get the F-22 Raptor! :E

Aussie

[ftrplt]

all well and good but the F22 is not cleared for foreign sale; and I doubt it will ever be.

The US will say its JSF or nothing (if you want 5th generation).

[Aussie]

FTRPLT,

Yeah true, but i think if they actually had a serious contender who wanted to pay the $$$ they would consider sellin the F22

My thoughts anyway

Aussie

[Buster Hyman]

Fine, if they wont sell it to us, then we can give them a strip somewhere remote, up North & they can fly them on our behalf. Proviso being that they are under our command...hmmm...I'll just go back to sleep shall I? :ugh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I saw a doco recently on the F22...near the end lots of pilots interviewed...all VERY experienced obviously with LOTs of time in F15s etc.

One chap was a Test Pilot involved with the type and clearly with Fighter experience going back to F4s over Hanoi...he flatly stated that if he ever came up against an F22 in real combat he would be a very worried man and the look in his eyes told you he was serious.

The current squadron pilots involved in the working up phase of squadron service were just awestruck by the aircraft...stating straight up that no matter the variations 1v1 or 1v6 it was almost boring shooting down the 6....didn't seem to matter what the mix of the 6 was...F15, F16s etc.

Pretty clear why the aeroplane is not for export.

[WarmNuts]

i wonder why the ALP are pushing for the F-22 when it isn't avaliable for export. the super hornet or F-15E should provide enough capability

[Gnadenburg]

Pretty clear why the aeroplane is not for export.
Has anybody formally gone through US officialdom? I don't reckon the Israelis will get it. Maybe the Jap's if Korea hots up or Chinese military expansion and resource hunger continues to grow at 10%. The Pom's have an aversion to buying logical fighter technology but if they wanted it, I believe they could have it.

Would the Yanks sell it to Australia? They should if asked, the only reluctance I would have if in their shoes, is the rumours of pretty serious infiltration of Defence with foreign spies- which has seen us sensored or sheltered from US/UK intelligence previously.

Does F22 have a role in the RAAF? Traditionally, the RAAF offensive counter air role has been the domaine of F111. The destruction of an enemy air force on the ground. The loss of face of losing your air force on the ground and not being able to counter the RAAF ability until recently, represented the deterrent value of the F111 in Asia.

Times change. F22 has a token ability to conduct the traditional RAAF F111 counter air role, with cruise missiles. However, it offers what appears to be the ultimate airborne counter air fighter. Destroying an enemy's air force airborne. RAAF F22's would offer the same deterrent force as the F111 did in the 70's & 80's.

16-24 F22's and 36-48 F15E's. Within budget? Proven capability and the RAAF the premier air force in the region- indisputably!

The RAAF Brass loses it's networked, Pie In Sky JSF programme.

[superfrozo]

Traditionally, the RAAF offensive counter air role has been the domaine of F111.

Gnadenburg: mate, I love it - effing brilliant...!!!:ok: :D

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

Shhhh. It is all part of a plan to get a JSF prototype and an F-22 to Avalon next year:=

[talespin]

Source: News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19573323-29277,00.html)
The Federal Government planned to spend $16 billion on 100 of the fighter jets to replace F-111s and FA-18s, due to be retired by 2012.
What's the wisdom of putting all your (our) money on one type? If there's a major glitch - Windows keeps crashing, dodgy cup-holder, whatever - don't we risk having our entire air combat capability grounded indefinitely? :ooh:

Surely a bit of diversification (F-35 + F-15E or another proven type) would be more prudent for that one in a million chance - like when the Sea Kings were offline. Same goes with the MRH-90s replacing all Black Hawks, instead of some of the latter being kept in service as originally announced (I think).

Another example of the bean-counters getting their way - presumably streamlining down to a common type would be more efficient (cheap) - at the expense of operational flexibility...? :(

[Gnadenburg]

Wedgetail delayed!

I'm guessing and this will make the F111 supporters happy, that this coupled with JSF risks, will see F111 service extended a few years. :ugh:

[Buster Hyman]

On a side note, I was looking at Langley AFB on Google Earth...ummm...research for my rich Middle Eastern Uncle...:O...anyway, I think there's an entire squadron of Raptors sitting there in the sun.

(FYI the base is around Chesapeake bay on the East coast);)

[scran]

Reference anyone being offered F22's, this was around in Feb:


F-22 Raptors to Japan?
Posted 20-Feb-2006 10:33

Via InsideDefense.com, Inside The Air Force (ITAF) reports that momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the ultra-advanced F-22A Raptor abroad to trusted U.S. allies, as a way of plussing up numbers and production. The USAF originally initially intended to purchase almost 700 F-22 fighters, but that was cut to 442, then 339, and recently cut again to just over 180. These cuts have had obvious effects on the cost per aircraft.
One of the most likely export prospects is Japan. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) currently has four fighter jet models in its fleet: F-15J/F-15DJ Eagles, its F-4EJ "Kai" and RF-4EJ reconnaissance Phantom IIs, the Mitsubishi F-2s (a larger, longer-range variant on the F-16C), and F-1s. The F-1 entered service in 1978 and is being replaced by F-2s; the JASDF introduced the F-4EJ in 1973, and has indicated it will begin retiring the platform some time next decade. This gives the Japanese a number of choices....

Since the F-2s will no longer be built, they cannot replace the F-4EJs and RF-4EJs. Japan may choose to go ahead and buy "kaizen" F-15Js at a comparable cost, and rely on attached pods like ReeceLight or SHARP for reconnaissance. Alternatively, it could move for a broader capability upgrade and buy a 4th or 5th generation fighter.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would be attractive for budgetary reasons and can perform very capably in the air-air and reconaissance roles, while its set partnership model smooths technology transfer issues. Unfortunately, its single-engine design would be a concern during maritime combat air patrols, and its declared status as a strike fighter works against it in a country that's so insistent on the purely defensive functions of its weaponry.

The Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale would be possibilities, and coupling them with the MBDA Meteor long-range air-air missile might be very attractive given Japan's needs. Yet there has been no indication of interest from Japan at this stage, and such a move would mean deviating from Japan's strongly American industrial links and equipment infrastructure. That would be no small move in a society that sets such store by deep industrial relationships.

On the other hand, Japan's combination of long sea zones and growing rivalry with China make a long-range, twin-engine, supercruising and stealthy interceptor that has unprecedented reconnaissance capabilities and leverages existing Japanese partnerships with Lockheed and Boeing nearly irresistible. Seen in that light, the JASDF's interest in the F-22 is less surprising.

A Lockheed Martin official has confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded "international variant" is working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government, and is now "at the three- or four-star level" and among civilian decision-makers. Yet the F-22's extensive and not fully-revealed capabilities have made many in the USA very nervous about exporting it, and thereby risking a security breach around its electronic architecture, stealth aspects, or next-generation data links. The aircraft's $130 million flyaway cost also makes all but the most serious buyers hesitate.


open source reporting :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

Buy F-22 Raptors or face air gap: Beazley

Patrick Walters, National security editor. The Australian.

June 28, 2006

AUSTRALIA should consider buying US F-22 Raptor stealth fighters to avoid a serious gap opening up in the RAAF's air combat power after 2010, Kim Beazley said yesterday.

Pointing to possible delays in the $16billion Joint Strike Fighter program, the Opposition Leader claimed the RAAF was about to lose its technological superiority in Southeast Asia as neighbouring countries acquired more sophisticated aircraft.

"It's a very serious situation. A big capability gap is building up now - Australia versus the region," he said.

"We have always enjoyed technological superiority. We are now about to lose it."

The US House of Representatives voted last week to lift a 10-year-old ban on foreign sales of the F-22, built by the JSF contractor, Lockheed Martin.
The F-22, an air superiority fighter, is already in production but at about $180 million each remains much more expensive than the JSF, which is expected to undertake its maiden flight in October.

Mr Beazley said the F-22 could be the answer for the RAAF after the retirement of the F-111 strike force from 2010 to ensure that a serious gap did not emerge in the country's front-line defences. This would give defence planners more time to make an appropriate decision about the JSF's capabilities and whether it was the best choice for the RAAF.

"The job of our diplomacy is to build friendships on the basis of a proper recognition of Australian national interest. But we do need to keep a reserve," Mr Beazley said.

"And that reserve is in technological superiority. That is about to go. Gone, gone.

"The JSF will not be ready in time to fill that."

But Defence Minister Brendan Nelson, visiting the JSF production plant at Forth Worth, Texas, emphasised that the next-generation fighter remained on schedule for delivery to Australia from 2012.

The RAAF plans to buy up to 100 JSFs, currently estimated to cost about $100 million each, to eventually replace the F-111 bombers and the F/A-18 fighters.

"As far as pricing is concerned, there has been very little upward movement on price," Dr Nelson said in Fort Worth yesterday. "This is the right aircraft for us. It will serve Australia's needs for more than 30 years."

The Government is due to sign later this year a key memorandum of understanding with the US on the JSF, which will cover access to computer source codes to maintain the aircraft.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Can't see a change on the horizon for the JSF purchase. The person people need to convince has a bit of a twitch and has lot's on his rank slide. Government won't operate contrary to the service chiefs advice (generally speaking).

Why not get some old B-1's :ooh:

[Gnadenburg]

The person people need to convince has a bit of a twitch and has lot's on his rank slide.

Lockheed has funded it's faithful with some very generous retirements in bygone fighter procurement days.

BAE quite generous too.

Perhaps a joint Eurofighter/ JSF would make for the most comfortable of pension funds for brass, bureaucrat and polllie alike.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

naa.. The real gravy train is to be Deputy CEO of DMO, then resign to take up a position as CEO of Thales (50% owner of ADI) - taking with you in your mind the budget for every major Defence project for the next 10 years. That will make the tender process a fair bit easier for Thales / ADI !!

[Capn Bloggs]

a bit of a twitch and has lot's on his rank slide

Not "Shaky":D ?!