Cruise Turbulence - Pilot and Aircraft Capabilities?

[EI-MPE]

This is a difficult topic for me to post.

For the past 6 years my profession has necessitated extensive international travel. Typically I board a jet between 65 and 70 times a year for work related travel. This is broken down into 3 long haul (Asia / USA) trips and the rest is around Europe. I have a fear of flying; but this has been addressed mainly as a result of the volume of travel I have to do (the early days were hell) and the acceptance that comes with familiarity. As part of my self help I started a PPL course last year – to date I have clocked up 42 hours (solo at 15 hours – solo x-country at 36 hours), I have completed the ground school and I have passed the ground exams, I enjoy the general aviation experience. Despite all this self help I have yet to master turbulence in the cruise phase of flight – the turbulence associated with jet stream horrifies me – I find myself clutching the arm rest and praying. I am now at a dead end in self help as my Cessna 150 will never breach 100 knots or 4000 ft (that is with me at the controls). Jet streams and high altitude turbulence knowledge and experience, in my case, will be confined to the passenger cabin with that awful sinking feeling the first lurch brings.

I am a customer of you guys – please explain what the procedures are for flight through turbulence.

How do you grade it?
How do you anticipate the magnitude?
What do you do when things get really bad?
Is it possible for you to loose control of the aircraft – could it become inverted?
Does it ever cause you anxiety?
What are the aircrafts capabilities?
What was your worst experience?


I am hopeful that some insight from the cockpit will improve my understanding and perhaps ease the anxiety.

[Chesty Morgan]

First you have to remember that it feels and looks a LOT different to us looking out the front window as opposed to those tiny things you have to look through.

And I can virtually guarantee that it isn't as bad as it feels.

Turbulence is graded from Light to Moderate to Severe. I have only once encountered Severe turbulence in nearly 10 years of flying.

I can't recall the exact definitions but -
Light turbulence is just your bog standard day really
Moderate is when the aeroplane starts to move around a bit more and walking and moving become a bit of an effort.
Severe is effectively when the aeroplane is, not out of control per se, rather difficult to maintain the required attitude and level. But as far as controlling the aeroplane there are no real problems.

I would say it's almost impossible to predict accurately when and where turbulence will occur and what magnitude it's going to be. You have a general idea from wind strength and direction that sort of thing but sometimes it just happens out of the blue!

If by capabilities you mean aircraft 'G' limits then most if not all airliners are stressed to +2 1/2 g and - 1g and I think you'd have to be trying very hard to exceed these.

My worst experience was in a BAe 146 over Villatobas VOR in Spain.
We were climbing to FL 280 and popped out of a layer of cloud just before we levelled. Looking about half a mile ahead we could see what is called a "Rotor", imagine a horizontal whirlpool of cloud, right in front of us. It was to late to do much about it, switch the seatbelt sign on, PA to the cabin crew to sit down, quickly! And slow to our rough airspeed.

We hit this thing, the autopilot disconnected (maybe should have been out all ready) and ended up going through about 45 degrees of bank to the right at the same time as losing about 400ft and about 50 knots. And then it was back the other way...About 40 degrees roll to the left and up about 800 feet. Skipper trying to maintain speed and attitude. Me a VERY laconic call to ATC. "*****123 unable to maintain altitude due severe turbulence" "Roger" in a Spanish accent...I remember it clearly to this day!

About 10 seconds later we'd come out the other side and it was smooth as a babies bum. Quick check with the cabin to see if everything was ok, it was:ok:

Please remember though that aircraft are designed and built well and don't just fall out of the sky willy nilly...although it may feel like it.

I get a little bit anxious as a passenger in turbulence. I think this is because it's almost impossible to see a decent horizon from the cabin and therefore get your bearings. The best thing to do is probably look out the window anyway!

Hope my rambling is of some use and I hope that somebody with more technical knowledge will be able to clear up some of my nebulous words:ok:

[canuck76]

Hi EI-MPE, I'm going to move straight on from the discussion on turbulence to my presumptious assessment of the core of the matter. Easy for me to do that because I think I've been in the same place as you, with much the same background, except that I have 72 hours PPL.

And on this forum no-one knows who I am so I will speak freely.

It isn't turbulence that causes the problem but panic attacks. Good news is they can be solved. I've just racked up 38 hours in the air in the last couple of weeks without any more than slight anxiety. That's a long way from my starting place.

First and only place for you to start is your doctor. Read the words in the first sentence of the previous paragraph because they're the ones you'll eventually have to give him. Panic attacks. They can be treated in several ways. You'll possibly get referred by your doctor to a psychologist, for whom these things are their boring daily bread and butter and they are well used to dealing with them. I did aversion therapy (moved me from the almost screaming heebie jeebies to just being nervous). I did hypnosis (worked for a few years). I did chemical treatment for a couple of years (very low dose tranquillisers), which also helped. It's pretty well under control now, but I always fly with a bottle of Xanax pills handy in case I need it (very rare now).

Main thing is that it can come to anyone - pilot, non-pilot, thousands of hours person, SLF, ATPL, lumberjack, stuntman, wimp, director, chairman, or anyone. It can be fixed. Fixing needs professional help. Stress is a big multiplying factor. You're not the first person in the world to have the problem. Good luck in sorting it out.

[lexxity]

EI I used to be a terrible flyer, but through working for an airline, valium and the magic bach rescue remedy I've masterd it.

I highly recommend you buy bach rescue remedy, buy a bottle of mineral water and dilute some of the remedy into it. Then when you hit turbulence just sip at the water. It worked for me. I don't know if it has any real effect or if it's just physcological but it really did help. Now I can sleep onboard which is a major achievement. The only other thing I can suggest is trying to sit opposite a jump seat occasionally and have the crew chat to you about what is happening. I had one chap once on bmi who talked me through take off, turbulence and landing. It really got me on the road to recovery.

(Mods if this is advertising please feel free to remove.)

[norihaga]

I get a little bit anxious as a passenger in turbulence. I think this is because it's almost impossible to see a decent horizon from the cabin and therefore get your bearings. The best thing to do is probably look out the window anyway!

I find the same thing (lowly PPL student)...turbulence when I'm flying doesn't bother me...although I haven't ever experienced a Chesty-magnitude event. And a good thing too, in 30/40-year-old piston singles. :rolleyes:

But even though I've flown (i.e. as freight) regularly most of my life, I get distinctly anxious as a passenger, and always have. Personally, I suspect it's just because I don't have either control or even forward visibility, knowledge of the weather ahead. My solution is a bit simpler - I do as little flying as a passenger as possible!

Something I like even less is an IMC approach that's taking a lot longer than it should. Have had that at LHR a few times. Once we get about 10 minutes past the flight deck's reported touchdown time and we're still flying through murk, I start wondering what the odds are that large parts of the Home Counties are about to join us in the cabin. Silly, but there you go. Even less fun was sitting in the back of an MD-11 (Swiss?) into Narita in the middle of a driving rain storm. The controllers were either being completely unreasonable that day or the pilot was exploring a new, experimental 60 degree glideslope. I swear the airbrakes were on from initial descent until about 30 seconds before touchdown, and my strong impression was we were desending at a high rate of knots for most of it. I think it was the loose items and small children rolling towards the front of the cabin that tipped me off. :uhoh:

I guess what I'm groping towards is the conclusion that powerful sedatives are probably the best solution for your business flights. Wish I knew where to get some of those.

[EI-MPE]

Thanks to all for their replies and suggestions - I found Chesty's reply most helpful and next time, at the first lurch, I will remember your words.

I know that sedatives and/or alcohol suppress the sympthoms but, attractive as the proposition sounds, I need my wits about me when I reach my destination (for work) and when I return (to drive home from the airport). Besides one risks dependancy if they pursue that route.

chanuck 67 posted:

"It isn't turbulence that causes the problem but panic attacks."

I wouldn't classify what I experience as a panic attack i.e. hyper ventilating, increased heart rate, sweats and generally freaking out. I'd classify my feelings as heightened apprehension brought on by a poor understanding of what's happening and being powerless over the situation. I simply don't like not knowing what is happening, when it's going to stop, how much worse it's going to get......the unknown I suppose.

In response also to chanuck 67, I have consulted the Doctor and I have had the Xanax, but, in my case, I have found these routes of little use. I am confident that the issue is under control except for the problem as associated with cruise flight turbulence. Take offs and landings don't concern me generally (the exception being approach and landing at Bilbao in bad winds....quiet the experience that is!).

I'd like to occupy the (lofy!) position of norihaga and travel mostly when I am on the flight deck but, as a lowly PPL student, I am afraid that is not an option.

I am convinced that the experiences and assurances, imparted by the pilots, will assist greatly in addressing my concerns.

[TG345]

[
I guess what I'm groping towards is the conclusion that powerful sedatives are probably the best solution for your business flights. Wish I knew where to get some of those.[/quote]
Check out any online pharmacy

[Avman]

being powerless over the situation. I simply don't like not knowing what is happening, when it's going to stop, how much worse it's going to get......the unknown I suppose.

I think these are the key points. It’s one thing when it’s day time and you can see that you’re passing through some cumulus and you know that it’ll all be over in a short time. It’s another thing on a dark night when you have no visual reference and experiencing CAT. I can remember one bumpy flight, at night, when we rode the tops at 350 for more than an hour. Traffic prevented us from getting a higher level and we just had to ride it out. At least the skipper came on and explained it, which took away the “unknown” factor and that helped ease the tension (well mine anyway). What I really don’t like is CAT, especially at night. You don’t know how long it’s going to last and the intensity can vary quite a bit as you fly through it. It can smooth out and then bang, a sudden jolt and you're off again.

In the days when I had major fears of turbulence, (I believe I’ve got it relatively under control now) I never had any problem whatsoever when riding J/S on the FD! So, if I knew in advance that things were going to be unpleasant, I'd try and get up front. In those days it was easy!

[ryanbryan]

I’m not a pilot, but I thought I might put my two cents worth in… I think the main thing that makes me anxious, like Avman said, is really, fear of the unknown… you don’t know whether it’s going to get worse or better, or which way the aircraft is going to go.

My worst experience of turbulence would be from KUL to SYD last year… from the time we crossed the Australian coast, until about 30 mins out from Sydney, i.e 4hrs 30mins… we had moderate CAT, which had everyone belted and in their seats pretty much the whole time, and the cabin crew in theirs for about two hours of it… about half of this time was in darkness, making it all the more worse… didn’t help that there was very little communication from the flight deck either… (which I’ve found tends to be quite the norm with E Asian carriers)…

I’m usually ok if it’s turbulence on takeoff or landing… it’s usually the mid-flight turbulence that sends the fear through me…. I tend to just try and look out the window, if possible!

[Tarq57]

I'm an ATC with about 500hr in light singles. To try and answer your q's:
1)From memory, the definitions go...Light; seatbelts not required,lulls pax to sleep, Medium; Seatbelts required,small objects move around cabin, Severe; Seatbelts required, aircraft is very difficult to control and will be out of control at times, structural damage may occur, Extreme; aircraft movement is violent and is out of control most of the time, structural damage occurs. (In practice, severe is rare and extreme almost unheard of.)
2)Weather forecasts-often based on pilot reports; cloud observation,eg: the rotor mentioned earlier,or seeing a thunderstorm visually or on the radar; situational awareness eg: wind flowing over hills will produce turbulence-the stronger the wind and the bigger the mountains and the more inherently unstable the atmosphere on the day the rockier the ride; and sometimes it just comes out of the blue. (Which is why it's a good idea to keep the belt on even when it's smooth.)
3) Personally, slow to turbulence speed or Va, try not to overcontrol, make a joke about counting the wings to reassure the passengers, and depending on the cause, a change of altitude or route can help. As an airline passenger, I keep the belt on whenever seated and marvel at the flexing of the wing.
4) Yes. But this would be rare. And I think for a large aircraft, very rare.
5) Sometimes a little. As a passenger in an airliner, very seldom. Don't think I've ever experienced severe turbulence in an airliner. Maybe moderate to severe.
6) In the word of E.K.Gann,( "Fate is the hunter"), "It's margins of strength are beyond my understanding."
If I remember rightly, lighties are certified to +3.8 and minus 1.7G. Air transport aircraft, such as a Boeing, probably similar or greater. There is a 50% margin required on top of that. You hardly ever hear of inflight breakup as a direct result of turbulence.
The more likely hazard is windshear related-a type of turbulence that results in a loss of airspeed with a change of altitude. This can be hazardous on final approach. At the airport where I work, it's a frequent occurrence. Seen some interesting approaches; never seen a crash.
7) When on my first solo cross country in a hilly area.(Central Otago, NZ. Famous for gliding.) Flew just underneath a rotor cloud. 'Course I didn't then know it was a rotor cloud, it was smooth as until then. Stuff hit the ceiling, including my head. The prop made interesting and discordant noises. Roll reached about 70degrees.The VSI went off the stops,twice. I was quite unhappy.
I would recommend reading everything you can get your hands on about Met. Some people find it a bit boring or difficult. I think it's one of the most fascinating subjects of the natural world, and can often easilly be related to what you're seeing from an aeroplane, or indeed from the ground. Good luck, take charge, live long and prosper.

[chornedsnorkack]

Extreme; aircraft movement is violent and is out of control most of the time, structural damage occurs. (In practice, severe is rare and extreme almost unheard of.)
But not quite.

3) Personally, slow to turbulence speed or Va, try not to overcontrol, make a joke about counting the wings to reassure the passengers, and depending on the cause, a change of altitude or route can help. As an airline passenger, I keep the belt on whenever seated and marvel at the flexing of the wing.
4) Yes. But this would be rare. And I think for a large aircraft, very rare.
5) Sometimes a little. As a passenger in an airliner, very seldom. Don't think I've ever experienced severe turbulence in an airliner. Maybe moderate to severe.
6) In the word of E.K.Gann,( "Fate is the hunter"), "It's margins of strength are beyond my understanding."
If I remember rightly, lighties are certified to +3.8 and minus 1.7G. Air transport aircraft, such as a Boeing, probably similar or greater. There is a 50% margin required on top of that. You hardly ever hear of inflight breakup as a direct result of turbulence.
But sometimes you do.

There is that BOAC 707 that was ripped apart in Japan by turbulence.

As for Boeing G tolerances, there is that China Airlines 747SP that fell off the sky (It had rolled over). The black box was broken by the acceleration, so the g-s achieved were over 5g, but exact numbers are unknown. The wings were permanently bent - slightly, and they remained within tolerances. Parts of tailplane broke off.
Out of over 270 people aboard, one had a leg injury and another had back injury. Everyone else was unscathed.

With people, it may have helped that the g-s were steadily down - not throwing around. As for airframe, perhaps it helped that the plane was light approaching destination over Pacific, not fueled to MTOW any longer.

There have been people killed by turbulence in airframes that kept flying.

The more likely hazard is windshear related-a type of turbulence that results in a loss of airspeed with a change of altitude. This can be hazardous on final approach. At the airport where I work, it's a frequent occurrence. Seen some interesting approaches; never seen a crash.

[ShyTorque]

Hell, I've been flyin' thirty long years and I'm still scared by those doggone aloominum tube things. How they ever fly without rotor blades I'll never know (spits in tin can). :uhoh:

Seriously, 2.5 G is enough to loop the aircraft and there is a safety margin above that.

So don't worry about it until you hear the pilots screaming through the locked door and your lunch goes to the ceiling.

[Groundlover]

OK unlike some of the previous post, I'm gonna try and attempt to answer the OP's post with some positive knowledge from my own perspective.

Firstly like the OP has mentioned about him/herself, I too am a regular flyer, doing about 4-5 flights a month for work. I also was a very nervous flyer to the point that I did not fly for 5 years and avoided going overseas because of it.

I now fly all over the world, on my own and without the anxiety I used to carry on board with me. I never thought I would get to this point but I have and I thought I would share it with you on how I dealt with it.

Firstly, I would just like to comment on some of the previous comments made, these are just my opinions.

"I highly recommend you buy bach rescue remedy"

This might be of some benefit but like the poster mentioned it might just have a placebo affect. Nothing wrong with that, placebos are very powerful but I do feel the OP needs to understand and change their perspective on what turbulence is and the risks involved.

The only other thing I can suggest is trying to sit opposite a jump seat occasionally and have the crew chat to you about what is happening[i]

This can be very helpful, but mainly for people not so aware of their surroundings. The OP mentioned that they fly very often so familiarity is something they possess. However, maybe the OP has 'avoided' getting familiar so this may be of some benefit for sure.

[i]There is that BOAC 707 that was ripped apart in Japan by turbulence.

It never surprises me when you talk to some people (like I used to) about a legitamate fear or flying you end up with a totally unhelpful and fear-riden response that adds nothing but useless sound bytes.

As for Boeing G tolerances, there is that China Airlines 747SP that fell off the sky (It had rolled over). The black box was broken by the acceleration, so the g-s achieved were over 5g, but exact numbers are unknown. The wings were permanently bent - slightly, and they remained within tolerances. Parts of tailplane broke off. Out of over 270 people aboard, one had a leg injury and another had back injury. Everyone else was unscathed.

This is just rubbish and nothing to do with turbulence which is what the OP's question(s) were related to. The cause was never 100% confirmed but the Captain had problems with no. 4 engine before the plane encountered any problems. Again, I don't believe any of this was helpful to the OP's original post.

There have been people killed by turbulence in airframes that kept flying.

Yeah and there's probably someone who's been killed painting their nails. It's very very rare for someone to be killed by due to turbulenece. In 'severe' CAT, which in itself is very rare to encounter (ask a pilot) there have been injurys to people not belted up and to CC, that's why you wear a seat belt.

OK so now onto how I dealt with flying in particular turbulence. The first thing to do is look at air as fluid. Just because we cant see it it's actually quite a thick substance when travelling at speed. If you put your hand out of a car window at 50mph you'll realise that it's very similar to wading through water. Now imagine that at 500mph, the air is very very thick like Jelly (Jello to our American friends). Now imagine a big jelly on a plate and shove a miniature model plane in the middle if the jelly so it is suspended both vertically and horiztonally. That's in simplistic terms is what the plane is, in thick jelly, suspended in the air because of the density of it. Now if you start feeling turbulence, this is simliar to wobling the jelly or pressing down on the top of the jelly. The air is still thick and you are still stuck in it's treacle like density but the path of the air has changed and therefore go up, down, side to side. Even those sudden jolts of falling is generally just very minor altitude shifts (look at the video display and see if you have fallen or climbed significantly, the chances are the read out is negligable). This applies ot severe turbulence but the path the plane is taking is naturally more excentuated, however the air is still thick. Now if you are a fearful flyer, you;re only intereste in those reports you hear about CAT and a plane dropping thousands of feet. OK these happen and by all accounts any prolonged turbulence or sudden jolts are not pleasant for anyone, but the planes CAN handle it. The wings will not snap off, the plane will not barrel roll and you will not die from it.

The whole way of dealing with this is to comprehend that doing 'anything' carries a risk BUT really understanding and comprehending the risk is extremely minimal, especially when it comes to being a pax on a commercial aircraft. Turbulence carries hardly any risk at all, not pleasant I agree but risky no. The pilot wont be enjoying it either and will be aware that it is uncomfortable for his/her passengers and in turn will comminucate with other aircraft to see if there is any smooth airspace around as an alternative, but they wont be feeling like you do at the back of the bus because the comprehend fully the risk involved and know it to be negligable. I remember when I was coming back from JFK to LON on BA. I was in the upper deck and it was qiote bumpy, I was aware of this and not really enjoying this, when I noticed the Captain come out the cockpit, have a joke with a CC, go to the loo and hang around the galley for a while just shooting the breeze (no he wasn't briefing the CC for an emergency, which is what my IMAGINATON was telling me).

Anyway, I have gone on far too long. If you want to PM me I will tell you a very very helpful course for aux fais flyers. It takes about 6 weeks (watching DVD's) but was extremely helpful for me. I didn't post the details here because I didn;t want anyone to think I was part of the company (which I am not).

Good luck in overcoming your fear

[EI-MPE]

Curious post by chornedsnorkack - I couldn't make sense of it - example: the China Airlines 747SP that "fell off" the sky??? ....and only one leg injury and a bad back injury on board ??? Mind you it's a great testement to the structural integrity of the aircraft - if it actually remained flying with bent wings and parts missing from the tailplane.

I got good insight from markjoy and groundlover's posts. I have had the suggestion before to sit close to the jumpseat and talk to the CC. However, with the deglamourisation of the CC role and the steady reduction in age and experience of the CC staff on many flights I take - I suspect that I would have much more experience of flying than most of them, hence I would have little to gain from talking to them.

Recently I travelled from Barcelona to Bilbao on a fine sunny afternoon. The passage of the short flight was smooth and uneventful. Then, about 25 minutes into the flight we hit turbulence and the MD80, very quickly, started rolling left and right and shuddering, the wind noise increased to a level where you could hear the gusts hit the airframe. Then, as quick as it started, it would stop, only to start again moments later with renewed energy. The belts were on, the knuckles white, the face was pale and I swore I was never travelling on a plane again. After 7 minutes the pilot started to desend and the horror ended.

I believe the best method for me to address fear (as described above) is to sit in the flight deck during a turbulent flight and observe the pilots reactions, expressions, body language and dialogue. I suspect this may be the (unachievable) solution.

[Chesty Morgan]

I believe the best method for me to address fear (as described above) is to sit in the flight deck during a turbulent flight and observe the pilots reactions, expressions, body language and dialogue. I suspect this may be the (unachievable) solution.

Unfortunately, like you say, I don't think that'll ever happen. Not in the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure it would benefit you anyway. We would just sit there trying to be even more laid back than usual (especially with an audience!) in an effort to "out cool" the other guy:rolleyes:

Have you flown recently? Has any of the above worked for you?

Chesty:ok:

[Globaliser]

Curious post by chornedsnorkack - I couldn't make sense of it - example: the China Airlines 747SP that "fell off" the sky??? ....and only one leg injury and a bad back injury on board ??? Mind you it's a great testement to the structural integrity of the aircraft - if it actually remained flying with bent wings and parts missing from the tailplane.This incident genuinely occurred as described: Have a look at this database entry (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850219-0&lang=en), for example.

[Groundlover]

This incident genuinely occurred as described: Have a look at this database entry (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850219-0&lang=en), for example.

Yes bit it wasn't related to turbulence which was the original OP's question.

[Globaliser]

Yes bit it wasn't related to turbulence which was the original OP's question.Neither did chornedsnorkack suggest that it was anything to do with turbulence: The incident was cited as a real-life example of the structural strength of the aircraft. As EI-MPE seemed a little confused, I thought that a different account of the incident might have helped.

[Self Loading Freight]

The way I cope with turbulence is by leaving my seatbelt on all the time, and if it happens - enjoy it. So many flights are dull as ditchwater - twelve hours stuck on a giant coach without even a break at a Little Chef - that a bit of funfair is more than welcome. An absolute belief in statistics, engineering and pilots helps too, with the emphasis on statistics - even though things go wrong and people make mistakes, you only have to look out of the window while taxiing at LHR to see just how huge the industry is and how many things don't go wrong. When they do, it won't be to you (same attitude means I don't get fazed by terrorism, which means it doesn't work on me. Result. And if I'm wrong, so what?).

Other times when I've been reminded about how well the machine works have been at a party in the roof bar at the Park Lane Hilton. It was a clear evening, and the approach to LHR looked like a necklace strung with diamonds shining against the dark sky. I took a moment to think about how many thousands of people were in that queue, where they had all come from that day, and how truly inconceivably complex was the thing called global aviation that delivered them. And it all hung on trust - if we couldn't do it safely, we couldn't have done it at all.

Then again, I was hiding in my rural Swedish retreat earlier this year (where I flee when I want to do some real work) and tuned in HF North Atlantic ATC for a bit of atmosphere. Every three minutes or so, Gander VOLMET warned of 'severe turbulence' for a 20,000' tall, 500 square mile chunk of mid-ocean air. Not that there was anything could have done to have avoided it. I don't know how many people got caught up in that, but it was just another night in the business. Nobody got into trouble. Wish I'd been there. Could have done the full Slim Pickins back-of-the-bomb 'Yeee-HAW!'.

None of this helps if you can't shake the fear, which is when to take yourself off to the professionals. That's worked for me (not in this context), although it helps if you can get a good word of mouth recommendation from someone who's been there.

R

[Self Loading Freight]

This incident genuinely occurred as described: Have a look at this database entry (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850219-0&lang=en), for example.
According to the notes to the pictures (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N4522V&distinct_entry=true) for the aircraft in question, it actually went supersonic during the uncontrolled descent. Not bad for a 747. It got repaired and was still in service as recently as a year ago...
R

[Paracab]

Mr Self Loading Freight's post is one of most sensible and considered posts I've read in ages, and I adopt absolutely the same philosophy, it is the only way.

Would have written the same thing myself, IF I ever got invited to parties on top of hotels... :cool: :ok: