Airbus may offer Qantas a stop-gap

[Wirraway]

Fri "Herald Sun"

Airbus may offer airline a stop-gap
Geoff Easdown
23jun06

TROUBLED aircraft builder Airbus is expected to provide Qantas with stand-in planes because of the late delivery of the super jumbo, the A380.

The national flag carrier is negotiating an arrangement to get a number of stand-in replacements, possibly twin-engine A330-300 series jets.
The 297-seat A330 has long been in service with Qantas and is used on its China and India routes.

It has about half the passenger and freight capacity of the big super jet.

Chief executive Geoff Dixon yesterday confirmed that Qantas was "looking and talking" to Airbus about stop-gap aircraft.

He was adamant that Airbus would properly compensate Qantas for the hold-up that has upset planning arrangements for the introduction of the aircraft.

"We won't just seek it, we will get it," Mr Dixon declared, addressing reporters after speaking to an Asia Society lunch in Melbourne.

At the lunch and briefing reporters later, he said Qantas was doing it hard because of rising fuel prices and the airline would have to make radical decisions over the next six months.

"That's not something that I am willing to discuss now but we will do it with a lot of sensitivity," he said, indicating that major restructuring was happening within the airline.

"We have plans in place and we will implement them as we see fit."

On the A380 issue, Mr Dixon said the possibility of getting temporary replacements existed.

But he would not discuss how much Qantas expected to be paid in compensation for delays over the A380, other than to say: "We have contracts with conditions that require Airbus to compensate us based on delivery timetables and many of those have been activated.

"We have no intention of changing our order or anything like that," Mr Dixon said.

"We want to work with Airbus and help them embody the aircraft that we are going to put on and get this plane in the air as quickly as possible".

Qantas, which has ordered 12 planes, last week despatched to Europe its number three executive, John Borghetti, to investigate the the delay after learning that its first A380 would fly into Australia 12 months late due to wiring problems.

The airline initially expected that it would get its first plane this October but now must wait until October-December next year.

This will be almost a year behind its arch rival on the London long -haul route, Singapore Airlines. Mr Dixon said Qantas expected Airbus to respond to the carrier's delivery schedule for new long-haul aircraft.

On oil prices which will drive a billion dollar hole this year in the carrier's accounts, Mr Dixon said fuel represented 28 per cent of the total operating costs of the Qantas brand and about 36-37 per cent of discount carrier Jetstar.

He said the fuel surcharge which was increased in April was not under review.

Qantas shares fell for a second day yesterday and closed 3 down at $3.

============================================

[QFinsider]

Given the stunning success of the A330 into Q service:ouch: , another Airbus will ensure an indecisive Dixon train smash just keeps on trucking.....:E

$3.00 and in freefall....

His spectacular lack of vision is evident to all

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dear QF Insider,

Given the stunning success of the A330 into Q service:ouch: , another Airbus will ensure an indecisive Dixon train smash just keeps on trucking.....:E
Mixing rather useless metaphors? How can a train smash keep on trucking? How is Dixon indecisive? Rather the opposite I would say. Your sarcastic commment on A330s shows you know very little of them and their economics.

$3.00 and in freefall.... Now you would have it that if QF had ordered Boeings that all would be well with the share price?

His spectacular lack of vision is evident to all You obviously don't like his pragmatic management style but it is obvious that his vision is the clearest in the Australian industry.

You and your mates are the ones who have the blinkers on. Go on, have a whinge...wish we were back in 1985.

[QFinsider]

yeah back to 1985 and school....

Well considering my knowedge of the A330 I think i can comment the train smash keeps on going...Ask around the A330 hasn't been a spectacular sucess...

If pragmatic "modern day" professional management wipes 25% of shareholder wealth in four months and this time it isnt SARS, the Iraq war, 911 but fuel costs, which unless I'm missing something isn't exclusive to QF...I will gladly return to a less modern time

ever wondered how in hell BA increased revenue and profit in times of high fuel prices?:E

[Lucius Vorenus]

Well considering my knowedge of the A330 I think i can comment the train smash keeps on going...Ask around the A330 hasn't been a spectacular sucess...
OK, I'll ask you...how has the A330 not been successful? How in dollars and cents has it not done the job? How in replacing both the 747-2/300 and the 767-300 has it not been cost effective?

If pragmatic "modern day" professional management wipes 25% of shareholder wealth in four months and this time it isnt SARS, the Iraq war, 911 but fuel costs, which unless I'm missing something isn't exclusive to QF...I will gladly return to a less modern time
So you blame management for the recent fall in QF share price? Following similarly you would have to give credit to the same management that there is still a QF share price (as opposed to say the current AN share price). My point, pal, is that you and your dinosaur mates don't know squat about business.

ever wondered how in hell BA increased revenue and profit in times of high fuel prices?:E
Gosh, you're right. We got dud management. Or just maybe we got dills like QF insider telling us that all is rosy and QF management are crying poor just like AN management did.

[Simon Templar]

The demise of Ansett was brought about by its ownership,not its management.
Its demise was also hastened by Air New Zealand who hadnt conducted due diligence adequately.
Qantas is a company run by consultants.You do not have to be a genius to cut costs by retrenching staff.
Managing the revenue base does however require some skill.Skills so far not displayed by current management.
The purchase of Airbus A330/200/300 IS a farce.It is not an aircraft designed for the purpose Qantas intended.
They were, however,cheap
QF Management have destroyed shareholder value.As has been rightly pointed out,fuel costs impact evey airline.BA management have increased revenue and profit by increasing fares.ie passing on costs to the consumer.
Fundamental business practice.
Lucius your posts could not have been written better by Dixon himself.
Why if QF is in such dire straits do incentive bonuses still continue?I would have thought that salaries were paid to individuals to do a job.Why then do they need a bonus?
While everyone else has to tighten their belts, some senior managers have splashed out on luxury vehicles like Porsches.
Totally inappropriate considering the circumstances
:cool: :cool: :cool:
ENRON HIH FAI QANTAS...The perfect management Quartet

[404 Titan]

I think some of the posters here need to have a talk to some BA staff to get a better idea how they increased their profits. To a very large extent it was through staff redundancies that has inflicted huge pain on the BA workforce and their families. Sound familiar?

[Lucius Vorenus]

The demise of Ansett was brought about by its ownership,not its management.
So AN management wasn't correct when they cried poor? AN management had nothing to do with their demise? AN management should have done nothing as you seem to want QF management to do?
You guys are incredible.
Managing the revenue base does however require some skill.Skills so far not displayed by current management.
Oh yes? In whose opinion. Yours? What year did you graduate out of Harvard Business School?
The purchase of Airbus A330/200/300 IS a farce.It is not an aircraft designed for the purpose Qantas intended.
They were, however,cheap
Yes, they were cheap. But the aircraft now are probably the most cost effective in their role.
QF Management have destroyed shareholder value.
How? Specifics please.
Simon T you spout fundamental business practices. (Strike one) You, old pal, are a bus driver. No, you're not a business operator. You're a whinging, glorified bus driver.
Want a Porsche? Easy, go to business school and work your way up to CFO or CEO of an ASX 100 Company. Easy.
Otherwise forget about the envy thing.

Keep it real, L.V
Woomera (Eastern States)

[cunningham]

While I strongly disagree with the practice of management receiving bonuses while others lose their jobs or take a pay cut, the theory behind this is that some mangers will leave if things are starting to waver. The bonuses continue in some circumstances to "encourage" those that have the option of pi**ing off to greener pastures, to stay. The last thing you want during a battle is the officers deserting. (sometimes the end result is the same either way)
Once again I would not by any means condone this sort of behaviour but I have witnessed this before in another industry and this was the explanation given when the cheques were handed out.

[Simon Templar]

So far all you have done is make assertions and spit vitriole.
Firstly I am not a qantas employee.
Secondly I have a B.Comm.LLB(Hons)from UNSW.
Of course AN management were crying poor.AN ownership were depriving them of the necessary investment funds to for them to remain competitive.
As for the rest of your diatribe you are obviously a lay person.
Your initials wouldnt be JB (Il Duce)by any chance?:cool: :ugh:
Further I dont believe that Dixon or Il Duce have tertiary qualifications that are conducive to running an airline.
More Lucius Vitriole to come!!

[Jetsbest]

You too have an opinion. Congratulations; everyone does.

But in all this talk of competition, fuel prices, reductions, staff cuts, economies, efficiencies etc which mostly affect long-serving, reliable, conscientious, capable, professional people, no one is talking about the down-side for QF management... There is none!

Their initiatives boost their bonuses without the slightest hint of team ethic (one in, all in) which a successful business should enjoy and in fact needs if it is to be its best (or would you argue that too?). That is why nearly all the recent pronouncements lack credibility in the eyes of many (even most?) QF employees.

And do I detect a note of that other current executive QF management trait in your comment "You, old pal, are a bus driver"; arrogance? So it's poor form for QFinsider to express a business opinion, but you could command a heavy jet from "A" to "B", planning for Alternate "C" at night in foul weather, with an engine failure, high terrain, poor ATC and dubious navigation aids? Do you know what an ATPL is? Most consider it a degree-level course when all the experience and practical elements are weighed in. Or perhaps you could enlighten all here about command obligations enunciated in CAOs, CARs, JARs and FAA Regulations?

Some, "old pal", choose Harvard while others choose something else and you had me until your attempted sledge indicated that even you need to "forget about the envy thing". :ok:

ps. where is it written that only business grads cum "CFO or CEO of an ASX 100 Company" are allowed to have Porsches? :rolleyes:

[Lagrange]

Simon T, well said.

Geoff Dixon is a good time manager. He is certainly street-wise but whining and government hounding is not going to save him.

His true capability was shown in melbourne this week and widely report in the media today. Classics like "we will make a submission to the federal government over Emirates' plans".

Business is tough. Level playing fields are dreams of a bygone era.

Get real Geoffrey old man, you have lost the plot. Shares below $3, the fair dinkum analysts will soon be calling for your head.

[king oath]

Lucius. Love your work. Your writing style is remarkably like a bloke called W.K. who used to be in management.

It couldn't be could it?

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dear Simon T,

I am humbly impressed by your qualifications.

I don't believe I offer vitriole..just offering realistic opinions.

As for the rest of your diatribe you are obviously a lay person.

(Strike two) You wouldn't have any idea what my quals are just as I have no (true) idea of yours.

I just offer what I see are valid points.

Further I dont believe that Dixon or Il Duce have tertiary qualifications that are conducive to running an airline.
Yes, you're right..neither knows anything about running an airline. So far they've just been lucky, right?

It doesn't matter that Ansett management did not make the tough decisions does it..they were always going to fail because of Air New Zealand? What twaddle!

Personal attacks..lack of coherent argument..where have I heard that before?

Jetsbest, yep you're right, no downside for management.
(apart from telling 1000 employees that they no longer have a job) and that's easy, right?

So it's poor form for QFinsider to express a business opinion, but you could command a heavy jet from "A" to "B", planning for Alternate "C" at night in foul weather, with an engine failure, high terrain, poor ATC and dubious navigation aids? Do you know what an ATPL is?
Old pal, you, QF insider and any fool can express an opinion here but I also reserve the right to call that opinion less than well based. Yes, I know what an ATPL is but I would conversely suggest that many pilots do not have a working grasp of the true state of the airline industry. What they have is a wish-list of half truths and bar talk which is not based on any fact.

Most consider it a degree-level course when all the experience and practical elements are weighed in.

Agreed. A degree in Aviation is not a degree in Aviation Management or Business.

My comment on Porsches is in reply to our illustrious self-proclaimed commercial lawyer Simon T who insinuated it is a sin to order one if you are an executive.

Lagrange, thanks for the information. I would never have known that business is tough.

Keep the name calling out of it, LV.

Woomera (Eastern States)

[Mr McGoo]

I would imagine share holder value is reflected in the share price.

Have a look at how the QAN share price has compared against the All Ords over the last two years:

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=QAN.AX&t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l&c=%5EAORD

All Ords up 40%, QAN down 10%. If that's not destroying share holder value then what is?

[The Bunglerat]

yeah back to 1985 and school....
Well considering my knowedge of the A330 I think i can comment the train smash keeps on going...Ask around the A330 hasn't been a spectacular sucess...


This wouldn't be the first time I've heard negative comments regarding the A330 in QF colours. Excuse my ignorance, but why so? From what I understand of its design goals and specs, it seems to me to be a very capable aeroplane, and one the vast majority of other airlines who operate the type seem to be very happy with it. Or is this a case of poor decision-making on the part of management in selecting a great aeroplane, albeit one not optimised for the airline's intended use (notwithstanding the strengthened floors issue which everyone but everyone is familiar with)? Reminds me of the farce with Kendell and the CRJ200's. Hugely successful regional jet with many operators around the world - but a dismal failure locally, although not through any fault of the aeroplane.

[international hog driver]

Go for the trifecta!

Where you are, who you are and where you came from is really not important. The only thing you have show is a complete ignorance of operational history, operational management and real world issues.

Your anal cranial interface is truly indicative of those who populate several levels of Coward St.

There is no doubt that the 330 is a fine machine as many Asian carriers are making a mint out of them however it was managements inept ability and introduction policies that made them a lemon.

332’s with long range and light weight floor beams so you cant put the current heavy weight premium class seats in.

333’s sent to India that require a fuel stop west bound to make it, and the only reason that works is because there is no competition on the route for direct flights.

Cityflyer turnarounds without using two aerobridges…WTF!

Tell me how you are meant to decrease the turnaround time with increased passenger numbers when there are less handling staff on the ground?

Like I said, great aircraft poorly introduced by BAD MANAGEMENT PRACTICE!

Do they listen. No
Will they change. No
Lead by example. No
Shareholder value. No
Can JQ crew them. No

These are just the identifiable issues on one fleet! All of these were clearly seen by some before introduction but the powers that be seemed to be too busy checking the specifications of Porsche’s not Airbus.

BTW I had my 993 before my 30th and no I don’t work for QF!:E :E :E

[Continental-520]

I think some of the posters here need to have a talk to some BA staff to get a better idea how they increased their profits. To a very large extent it was through staff redundancies that has inflicted huge pain on the BA workforce and their families. Sound familiar?

Yes, it sounds familiar, but I would've thought someone with your closeness to the int'l airline industry would've realised that staff redundancies are just one of many tactics that airlines such as BA have employed in order to cut operating costs, whereas QF seem only to focus on that one method. Guess it shows you how much they (don't) appreciate staff loyalty.

The main R & N forum has a few BA skeletons to bear, after all.

520.

[BHMvictim]

but it is obvious that his vision is the clearest in the Australian industry.


Clear alright! Use any excuse at hand to screw employees at every given opportunity!

[speedbirdhouse]

IHD,

you forgot to mention the f@#k up with the galleys.

QF in it's "wisdom" elected to hobble what is, after all, a long range aircraft by only giving it enough galley space for ONE meal service.

This was done against the advise of Airbus and every operational department of Qantas.

The bean counters OBVIOUSLY knew better.

Airbus galley bulkheads are integral to the airframe so moving them after manufacture [as can be done with the Boeing product] wasn't an option.

The refit to the galleys cost something in the order of AUD $100 Million.

Wasn't GOD himself proclaiming to one of our pilots how excited he was at Qantas getting delivery of the LONG RANGE 333 ??

Rumour has it that he didn't even know that the 332 was the long range variant........

[Taildragger67]

If something's tacked on to another product at a very low price, then of course it's going to be cost-effective.

Porsches... I thought Beemers were the chariot of choice?

I've been trying to think about the economics of all this. Let's assume (for ease) that a 330 (of whatever variant) has roughly half the payload (both self- and non-self-loading freight) of a 380. Then you'd need two 330s to compensate for the uplift capability of a 380 - so Airbus give QF two 330s for each delayed 380.

But, the 380 has a longer range than any 330 variant; so there are extra costs there. Then there's probably more than double crew (due to extra duty hours due to extra time to do the same run) and things like double the airways charges (plus the required extra slot costs). Any ETOPS issues as well (as 380s were going to do LAX - are QF 330s ETOPS?)? Plus the extra maint costs of the extra airframes...

This has the potential to get very messy. I can't see it not involving some litigation (and hence still more cost) at some point.

Moreover, where will all these extra airframes come from? QF isn't the only carrier to be breathing fire to Airbus; they can't just conjure up a bunch of 330s from thin air (without pi55ing off the recipients of the 330s already in production). Or are there a load of 330s in the desert?

Would actually seem like a good opportunity to ship a few 340s out and see if any stick...

[the_last_viirgin]

One Question.

If the A330's were so succesful. Why is QF passing them over to Jetstar and taking back the pre-historic B767 from "Australian".

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[speedbirdhouse]

dick'son doesn't give a f@#k obout Qantas or it's future.

[soldier of fortune]

i believe airbus and qantas were deep in disscussion's yesterday at QCA CENTRAL -and both parties came to an agreement that airbus will lease 12-15 ex AIR INDIA JT9-7F POWERED B747-100 AIRCRAFT CURRENTLY IN STORAGE AND AWAITING DISPOSAL IN A BOMBAY HANGER- free of charge- to cover the short term delay of the introduction of the A380.
GD IS VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS.:ok:

[lowerlobe]

Thats right about the ex-Air India 747's and they come with the original crew meals still on board and better still they come with a lowerlobe galley...ahhh the good old days and better still they don't have any IFE sytems that we have to apologise for when they ineviteably break down...

Darth is also getting some 707's from various museums around the world with the RAAF providing in flight refuelling courtesy of Johnny as a payback for Darth helping with the IR concept.

As long as they are not made in France any aircraft is a good idea....

[Lucius Vorenus]

Dear International Hog Driver,

If you don't work for Qantas how come you peddle common Qf misconceptions?

EG: 332’s with long range and light weight floor beams so you cant put the current heavy weight premium class seats in.
Really? I always thought the main issue with the 332 was the distance betwen doors 1 and 2 and the galley position not the floor strength?


BHM Victim,
Clear alright! Use any excuse at hand to screw employees at every given opportunity!
Oh yes, of course I forgot, a CEO is supposed to be nice to people and forget about the bottom line..just so long as people don't have to accept change. Forget about the fact that Qf international would make more money by shutting shop, selling all their assets, and investing the proceeds on the money market. Just so long as people don't have to accept change.

But of course your argument is that the current management doesn't know anything about running airlines and you do..right?

speedbirdhouse,

QF in it's "wisdom" elected to hobble what is, after all, a long range aircraft by only giving it enough galley space for ONE meal service.
Really? I guess the second meal service served on SYD-PEK-SYD and BOM-SYD materialises from thin air?

You guys break me up.

dick'son doesn't give a f@#k obout Qantas or it's future.
Well excuse me speedbirdhouse, but by your name neither do you. Actually, I would say that self-interest would characterize most of those whinging about having to change. Silly me, I always thought a CEO was paid to provide value to shareholders, not merely to provide comfortable lives to employees...guess I was misguided.

Dear Woomera (Eastern States),

Yesterday you rightly pinged me for being less than polite to posters. It was incorrect of me to use intemperate language and I apologise to all.

I would suggest that intemperate language, whilst inexcusable, is less wounding or damaging than malicious, barely disguised lies about real, hard-working people which sometimes, unfortunately, also appear in these pages. It would be appreciated if you could continue to apply your high standards in those areas also.

Yours sincerely,

Lucius Vorenus

[soldier of fortune]

hi peter gregg aka (lucius vorenus)welcome to pprune we look fwd to ur posts:D

[speedbirdhouse]

LV,

your ignorance of the problems with the A330 order suggests that you must be senior QF management or perhaps a board member.

AUD $100 million was spent converting the initial BRAND NEW A330s so that they could be used for the LONG RANGE ops for which they were designed.

QF bought them to be used between SYD, MEL and BNE despite the fact that no one else in the world operates this aircraft in this fashion.

It is after all a long range aircraft.

The bean counters held sway as an extra row of seats could be fitted with only the shorthaul ops galleys.

QF couldn't make them work for shorthaul ops and $100 million was spent on the refit.

The money squandered because of dixon's ineptitude.

Never mind.
Lets just sack a few more staff or send a few more jobs offshore.

[lowerlobe]

It’s funny but the only ones who are supporting the A-330 purchase are the ones in management who had something to do with it’s selection.If the airbus actually lived up to the claimed performance figures of it’s maker then it might be another story.

As far as the line that the only problem was the distance between doors 1 and 2 is a joke.Is our latin poster telling us that the floor would have been strong enough for our J/C sleeper seats if the doors had been made closer together.I’m sure an aircraft manufacturer would ask so how heavy are your seats and we’ll work out where to put the doors.

The truth is that the 330 was ordered with light weight floors that were not strong enough for our requirements and that is not being malicious just informing others about a poor decision made by lightweight managers ......Perhaps you know them vesuvius.

As far as any statements about our illustrious leader Darth and his abilities are concerned ,there are very few people supporting his management style and resulting damage to the share price .It is all too easy to slash and burn,it really does not take any inherent skill just a lack of feeling for the people that really keep the company going. It would however take skill and business acumen to develop new products and destinations to lead QF into the future , something that has been lacking for some time.

Quote from Vesuvius Ignoramous “Silly me, I always thought a CEO was paid to provide value to shareholders,”

If our share price under the leadership of Darth drops any further then he might not have any shareholders he has to listen to and provide value for and if you think about it maybe that is exactly what Julius Dixon wants.....no one to answer to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the amount of people selling qantas shares continues and therefore our share price goes south any further as well as our credit rating you will have to pay people to buy our shares and we will not have the ability to borrow money for a photo copier let alone new aircraft...

[404 Titan]

Continental-520
but I would've thought someone with your closeness to the int'l airline industry would've realised that staff redundancies are just one of many tactics that airlines such as BA have employed in order to cut operating costs
That's why I said:
To a very large extent it was through staff redundancies

[Pimp Daddy]

The truth is that the 330 was ordered with light weight floors that were not strong enough for our requirements and that is not being malicious just informing others about a poor decision made by lightweight managers perhaps you know them vesuvius.

Now we've got the heavy floors I hope it doesn't cost another $100m to bring in some heavyweight managers to do something good for the company.

The staff need some decent leadership to rally behind instead of doom and gloom - tell us how we can make a difference, don't just sack us.

Don't just call for VRs - all they do is get rid of your good people, people who take packages are ones who don't think they'll have problems finding another job. Weed out the deadwood, by all means cut surplus, but resource the areas that need it correctly.

If you have delays due to no gate staff, hire more, if you cancel a flight because no FAs will work their day off, hire more.

Conversely if you have a pile of staff on reserve/blanks lines/sitting around - prune them, but do it intelligently, get rid of the ones who don't bring value to the company.

At the same time, provide the resources for people to do their jobs, no good having engineers with no parts, rampies with no tugs (although rampies with no tugs is safer), no checkin stations, not enough screening points etc.

Fuel has gone up, as has been pointed out, contractors don't sack the brickies when the price of bricks go up, put the fares up - like it or not there ain't mcuh competition domestically, put the fares up, Virgin will follow because their fuel problem is worse.

Why don't these managers see this stuff. (and why do we pay them $6m to not see it!!)

[international hog driver]

Come on Lucius you can do better than that! :{

Go for the trifecta :D

Lowerlobe has more of an idea.

You on the other hand simply dont.:ok:

Quote
"If you don't work for Qantas how come you peddle common Qf misconceptions?"

Let me help you out with a correction to your statement here you should have said.

" I work for Qantas on the upper floors of Coward St and I am full of common Qf misconceptions?"

Hence I cant find my :mad: if its on fire with both hands!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Finally this gem....

"Silly me, I always thought a CEO was paid to provide value to shareholders"

You crack me up, i nearly snorted what I was drinking and sprayed the kids with this one.

Just what planet do you come from? I think lowerlobe, the pimp and the soldier all have come pretty close to nailing you, just stick to dreaming, yes men, and destroying a company that was once the global industry benchmark.

Its not that far away from BBB- and then i am sure that you will pull the cord on a golden parachute.

Thankfully i dont work for QF

[BHMvictim]

i believe airbus and qantas were deep in disscussion's yesterday at QCA CENTRAL -and both parties came to an agreement that airbus will lease 12-15 ex AIR INDIA JT9-7F POWERED B747-100 AIRCRAFT CURRENTLY IN STORAGE AND AWAITING DISPOSAL IN A BOMBAY HANGER- free of charge- to cover the short term delay of the introduction of the A380.
GD IS VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS.:ok:

Yeah! heard he can't wait to take delivery of this latest technology. Just a step below the 380 as it only has a quater upper deck. On ya Dicko!

[international hog driver]

There are really only two options for airbus and both are loss makers.

#1 More Discounts.
Firstly they gave away the 330's as the all time sweetener to get a long standing Boeing customer to order the Whale. That was the first loss, second loss was the already acknowledged low acquisition price as a launch customer.:rolleyes: :=

#2 Additional Airframes
The only other option out there for fast delivery would be the donation (lease) of the 340-600’s that m-rats have deferred. Could be used as a stopgap and might even give the over crewed 330 crews something to do once JQ take the 332’s :oh: :D :ok:
But that to will cost money as Airbus have publically stated that they will make up the difference in the DOC's between a 346 and a 777.

Basically Lose-Lose:{

Maybe QF management could capitalise on this opportunity, they could push Airbus into a corner and push Boeing around on the price for some 777-300ER as long term ARV & Classic replacements;)

But speculating on QF Management :oh: to actually be proactive on a market opportunity would be something that has had no precedent under the current “crop at the top” :yuk: of the white rat!:ugh: :ugh: :E

[Taildragger67]

#2 Additional Airframes
The only other option out there for fast delivery would be the donation (lease) of the 340-600’s that m-rats have deferred. Could be used as a stopgap and might even give the over crewed 330 crews something to do once JQ take the 332’s :oh: :D :ok:


... but maybe m-rats will need those themselves to cover their 380 delays.

But like I said, possibly an opportunity for 'bus to place some unloved 340 airframes around the traps and see if a few stick...

[Capn Bloggs]

be proactive on a market opportunity would be something that has had no precedent under the current “crop at the top” of the white rat!
We'll just forget about the excellent deal Dixon did on all the 738s then shall we...

[international hog driver]

What you mean the deal that American Airlines had about a dozen NG's coming down the pipe most of which that had alread had metal cut. That were deliverd in 100 days from contract signing....:ok: The ones (at least the first three were 737-823's that became -838's)

The same ones owned by some mob called 738 Leasing 1 Pty Ltd ACN 099 119 641 (have a look in the top/Roof of the door sill at 1L next time you walk in one there should be 3 data plates)

29551 was N979AN now VXA
29552 was N981AN now VXD
29553 was N982AN now VXF
30897 was N98?AN now VXC
30899 was N983AN now VXE
30901 was N985AN now VXG


Yeah the ones that came RFN when the rat need to stop B744 domestic services after Ansett folded and DJ had less than 10 aircraft?:{

Its very easy to sign a good deal when there is metal cut and engines made and Boeing's other customers pleading to get out of contracts.:hmm:

Yep those would be to ones, same good deal that Brett signed for the rolling options for the NG's.:D

Bloggs even you could have done an excellent deal with your hands tied behind your back, all you needed was stable capital base and your major opposition to fold after some guys dressed as sofa's flew some planes in to big buildings. := :*

No rocket sceince required by Coward St for this deal:= :E :E

[Taildragger67]

We'll just forget about the excellent deal Dixon did on all the 738s then shall we...

At least some monetary consideration was forthcoming...

[Raider1]

Don't know why so many knock the A330. Is it purely technical issues?
I pax to Darwin frequently and go out of my way to catch QF123 (international ops via Darwin). Far superior service and comfort to the standard domestic offering.:)

[Going Boeing]

Don't know why so many knock the A330.

The mature A330 has proved to be a reasonable commercial airliner, unlike its sibling, the A340. The main gripe in Qantas is that in late 2000, the purchasing department ordered 7 A330-200's and 6 A330-300's without any input from Engineering and Flight operations. Thus, there was no scrutiny of available options and configurations by those who would have to make it work properly. The first seven aircraft were planned to be used on domestic sectors so were ordered in domestic configuration. The order was subsequently changed to 4 A330-200's and 10 A330-300's but there was substantial discussion between Airbus and QF as the original price was extremely low (sweetener to buy the A380) and Airbus wanted to improve the yield by screwing as much money out of Qantas for the changes to the original order (ie converting three -200's on order to -300's plus 1 extra -300). A figure was finally agreed but, I believe that QF still didn't know that the order for domestically configured versions meant that they were fitted with a lighter floor in the Business class section which was not strong enough to support the Skybed Business class sleeper seats used on International flights. Subsequently, the first seven aircraft (4 -200's & 3 -300's) were delivered in domestic configuration. After 18 months of domestic operations bedding in this new type into QF operations, it was decided to start using them on international services. While Engineering was developing the required cabin modifications, the problem with the lighter floors was discovered and the cost of modifying them to standard floors was $25-30 million per aircraft. The QF Board discussed this massive bill and decided to modify the three -300's but not the four -200's. Thus the -200's remain in domestic config even though they have a much longer range than the -300's. As Jetstar International is to use QF mainline domestic seats for their flights, there is no need to upgrade the floors when these aircraft are transferred later this year.
The buck stops with Dixon over this debacle.

There is a slim possibility that Airbus may offer Qantas some A340-600's as interim capacity - possibly some of the aircraft that Emirates has delayed. I hope not as this type is a real dog.

[Keg]

....the purchasing department ordered 7 A330-200's and 6 A330-300's without any input from Engineering and Flight operations.

I think the correct term in the highlighted area was '...disregarding adverse comment...'! :ugh: :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[Lodown]

Sounds like Airbus has its fair share of problems at present. Guvmints of France and Germany calling for some management heads to roll. (Historical response from the French.)

[Raider1]

Thanks for your detailed response Going Boeing. That fills in the gabs for me. Still enjoy paxing on the aircraft though. Maybe its because the A330 is a relatively new aircraft.
Cheers

[Bolty McBolt]

Raider1
If you enjoy paxing on the A330 you must be up the front end.
As the back end is a different story altogether.
The aircraft is known by engineers and cabin crew alike as the "vomit comet"
Endless amounts of pax vomit spewed over the last dozen rows of seats and floors.
The seat cover replacement is double that of the 767 and 747 :yuk:

[radiation junkie]

My understanding was that a team of Qantas engineers went to Boeing and then to Airbus to inspect and evaluate both options. However after recommending that Q stay with Boeing and stay away from Airbus product, Airbus started throwing money and promises at GD and he ignored Engineering recommendations and went with Airbus because they were "cheap".

[Raider1]

Well GD did spend some time with Ansett when i was there and the A320 was verrrrrrrry successful for AN particularly eastern states to Perth...... hence maybe why Jetstar now have A320's as an economical solution for discount operations and GD thinks other models might work for QF and subsideries.

[Going Boeing]

Junkie
What I meant was that there was no Engineering/Flight Operations input to the Ordering/Contract phase. There would have been a lot of extra things specified by these two branches if they had been involved. I also heard that Engineering had advised management to avoid the Airbus product but the bean counters couldn't look past the acquisition price.

[Lodown]

Reminds me of another era when major delays with a European aircraft partly resulted in lost business. The Concorde had significant delays. By the time it was finally ready for delivery, Boeing had scooped the pool with the brand new 747 and the market had irrevocably changed. I get the impression a similar event is underway now.

[international hog driver]

From: AAP
July 06, 2006
MOODY'S Investors Service today affirmed the Baa1 long-term rating of Qantas Airways and changed the outlook to negative from stable.:{

As per post #33.

The rat is on the slippery slope, its time now for the shareholders to stand up and be counted. Maybe “Dirty Harry” said it right. “you gotta ask yourself, do I feel luck? Well do ya?”:E

It is time for a change, ask yourself why LH, AF, BA, SQ and CX are making money and returning value to shareholders while QF whines about crew cost and maintenance and fuel costs…..:ugh:

Everybody else faces the same costs what is it that makes Australia’s so much different…… (oh yeah I almost forgot its your “productivity” bonus’):=

Face it Coward St you have it wrong, your not leading by example, you have cut the wrong parts, disenfranchised the staff, bet on the wrong horse, all because you don’t listen to your own people.:hmm:

Why is it that CRM teaches us to work as a team and use the crews experience and knowledge to arrive at the best answer.:ok:

While those in Coward St act as cowboy’s and not part of the “team” by continually displaying their contempt to anyone that may have a better idea or more specialised knowledge in a particular area. :ouch:

[lowerlobe]

I've heard that there was a story on a German tv station that Airbus and EAD has sacked management with respect to the delay on the 380...has anyone else seen this story?

[Buster Hyman]

Yes, it was in the papers here lowerlobe.

With regard to Dixon quoting the fuel prices et al, as a need for the downsizing & cost cutting, I really wouldn't worry if I was QF staff. I'm sure he'll raise all the previous manning levels & conditions once things settle down!:ok:...:rolleyes:...:ugh:

[Z Force]

Airbus are to supply Qantas with more A330's and A340/600's as an interim replacement for the A380.

[DirectAnywhere]

What's your source Z force?

If true, it's amazing how QF has ended up with the fish that John West rejected, with higher fuel burn than than the 777-300, on the day oil hits a new record price and our "Dear Leader" -or "Great Leader" your choice - continues to blame high oil prices for QF's predicament.

They'd better be cheap!!!

[Lodown]

Lowerlobe, there were also accusations of selling stock a day or two before the official announcement of delivery delays.

[Transition Layer]

The extra airbii (plural ?) will be cheap - just like their crews.

How convenient that the lowest paid jet pilots in Oz are all endorsed on the Airbus and part of the 'Qantas Group'.

Surely it's a great opportunity for Qantas to put Boeing on the spot and see what they can come up and move away from the cheap Airbus crap once and for all.

TL

[BelfastChild]

The extra airbii (plural ?)

TL

Only if the singular is airbius..........

[lowerlobe]

I realise that this is just a remote possibility but imagaine the financial ramifications if QF and SIA and others cancelled the 380 because of further problems....

The European Governments would have to step in to save airbus...

[Taildragger67]

I realise that this is just a remote possibility but imagaine the financial ramifications if QF and SIA and others cancelled the 380 because of further problems....
The European Governments would have to step in to save airbus...

Well they stepped in to start it!

Oh, behave!


Lodown - apparently Forgeard's family sales kicked off in March.

What will be fun IMHO is if BAE's audit kicks up anything 'interesting'. None too happy at the Rothschild valuation.

[woftam]

Reliable birdie tells me QF are at this moment looking VERY seriously at B777-200LR all J class or a mix of J and "Premium Y" class to do direct SYD-LHR etc. :ok:

[captaindejavu]

As in 'curriculum' and 'curricula'..... wouldn't it be 'AirBum' and 'AirBa' ?? :}

[Taildragger67]

Reliable birdie tells me QF are at this moment looking VERY seriously at B777-200LR all J class or a mix of J and "Premium Y" class to do direct SYD-LHR etc. :ok:

Didn't that idea get rejected by QF's "commercial people" (quoting GD at the time) at the end of last year? Re-looking at it?

[woftam]

So the "birdie" tells me Taildragger67. :ok:
I guess time will tell.

[Keg]

I think WOFTAM and I were talking to the same Birdie!

Standard QF realism though.....I'll believe it when I see it pulling away from the gate on it's first revenue service! The 2006 add on is 'with QF drivers actually doing the driving, not some other wet lease version of the 'group' that the company uses to drive us all down towards crap pay and conditions'.

[Buster Hyman]

So what would be the sector times? How many crew would be carried (Tech & Cabin)? How big will the Honey cart be at the other end?

These are important questions!

[Eagleman]

Very old new Wof. Boeing included a 777 pitch last year and were quite taken back when they failed to win a 777/787 deal. The issue for QF was range / payload. What you might find is the 777 becomes an stop gap until the 747-8 arrives. Further, the 787 will handle just like the 777, so it could also allow dual endorsements thereby reducing overall crew costs for Mother QF - if the industrial scene could cope!!

[woftam]

Quite aware it was already looked at Eagleman. What I am hearing is it is being looked at very seriously AGAIN.:)
Regards range/payload ,that is why they are looking at all J class or a mix of J/Premium Y. To make it pay with less bums on seats. ie. higher yield. :ok:

[TineeTim]

Dreamin'!

Have another read of the report from Moody's. That was a shot across the QF bow from investors. The market is not at all convinced about QF's plan to pay for all the A/C already ordered much less placing another multi-billion dollar order. Not gonna' happen regardless of what any of the management pilot 'birdies' might be saying- the don't have the MBAs and they don't pay the bills.

[sydney s/h]

Here's a thought.....

If Airbus do decide to "lend" us aircraft to fill the A380 gap and it is something rather than an A330, can any Qantas FA's actually be certified on it?

I thought that we could only be approved on up to 3 aircraft type (CASA rule?). Does anyone know if this is true? And if they loan us some A340's then its into EP's for the LH crew if CASA allow it.

I'm sure if QF throw bucket loads of cash at CASA they will get some special dispensation!

Cheers.

[Buster Hyman]

It's been a while I know, but the AN FA's operated on 4 types at one stage. (They may have also classified the 763's as a different type from memory, making 5)

[lowerlobe]

Interesting thought alright,does anyone know if a different version of the same aircraft counts as a different type.
ex 747-300 & 747-400 and A330-200 & A330-300 as far as CASA is concerned ?

[sydney s/h]

hey lower,

I think it is aircraft "type" otherwise we would be able to operate very few aircraft.

There are 767-300RR, 763 international, domestic, ex-Australian...
737-400/800, A330-200/300, 747-300/400 and in multiple configs, so i think it comes down to type.

But re the A340 if we were to get it as a stop gap for the A380.... i can feel a wet lease coming on....:rolleyes:

[Taildragger67]

But re the A340 if we were to get it as a stop gap for the A380.... i can feel a wet lease coming on....:rolleyes:

IMHO it'd need to be... you'd need, say, 3 340s to cover the work of 2 380s (just off the top of my bonce)... so that's extra crews for the extra airframe. But it's only for a year or two... so the operator is not going to want to bear the costs of the extra crews - so wet-lease would be logical.

I've said it before - Toulouse will throw a few 340s at the problem in the hope that a few stick; somewhere, some of them probably will. No-one's cancelled any 380s yet so apart from a bit of bad press in the short term, this may not be the disaster for Leahy's order book that everyone thinks.

[sydney s/h]

anyone dare bet me a case of crownies that we dont end up wet leasing if we go down the A340 track?

place your bets ....anyone?

[TineeTim]

Yeah, I'll take the bet. There will NOT be A340s for either Jet* or QF. Full stop end of rumour. You name the flavour of the carton.

[Buster Hyman]

Geez, I could go a Crownie!:ok:

A340, the Daewoo of Aviation!:rolleyes:

[satmstr]

Yeah, I'll take the bet. There will NOT be A340s for either Jet* or QF. Full stop end of rumour. You name the flavour of the carton.

umm...A340 might be on the cards due to the easy conversion for flight crew and Engineers of the A330 A/C to A340's ...so i wouldnt rule it out yet...what happens to the left over A330 crews when they go to J#tstar, umm maybe use them on A340's , just my two cents worth :ok:

[sydney s/h]

Tinnie Tim,

The bet wasnt if we are getting A340's, it was IF we get them as a stop gap for the A380 i bet we will wet lease them.

SO....crownies are back on the table.... place your bets...

[lowerlobe]

The way this job is changing.........beer is the only constant.....

As Homer would say.."MMmmmm Beer"

[Bumpfoh]

:suspect:

This in the Herald Sun.

Fill-in jets on the way
Geoff Easdown

July 27, 2006 12:00am

QANTAS will get two 300-seat Airbus passenger jets to help overcome some of the problems arising from the delayed delivery of its new fleet of A380 super jumbos.

Qantas chief financial officer Peter Gregg said yesterday that two A330-200 jets were being acquired and would enter service about the same time as the first 550-seat A380.
The A330 deal emerged at an aviation summit yesterday in Brisbane and follows weeks of talks between Qantas and the troubled European aircraft builder.

The new planes, as well as plans to convert aged passenger aircraft into freighters, were among issues Mr Gregg raised during his speech.

Afterwards he also confirmed that Qantas was looking to acquire an Indonesian airline.

The decision to buy two A330s was foreshadowed by Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon three weeks ago in Melbourne.

Mr Dixon said then that the airline was talking to Airbus about stand-in aircraft to help overcome scheduling problems and a likely shortage of seats arising from the A380 hold-up.

Qantas will not get its first super jumbo until late next year, more than a year after the original due date in Australia.

Under the original contract with Airbus, Qantas would have had four super jumbos flying services by late next year and it is not pleased that rival Singapore Airlines will have its first A380 operating between Sydney and London a year before Qantas.

Referring to plans to upgrade freight services, Mr Gregg said yesterday that Qantas had to try to value-add its freight business.

"You've only got to look at the multiples the freight companies are trading at versus the multiples airline companies are trading at," Mr Gregg said, noting the freight business was consolidating as shown by the $6.2 billion Toll-Patrick merger.

"We don't want to be left in a position where we don't have some ability to compete effectively," he said.

Qantas is an equal partner with Australia Post in Australian Express air freight and has converted two older Boeing 737s into freighters.

Mr Gregg said Qantas was considering converting a 747 aircraft which would be added to the fleet of pure freight aircraft.

Qantas's passenger business has been hampered by narrowing profit margins, with jet fuel prices rising more than 60 per cent in the past year.

Last month the airline advised the stock exchange that second-half pre-tax profit would slump about 55 per cent because of a $1 billion increase in its fuel bill and because of other costs that would be incurred in redundancies.

On a separate matter involving a plan to expand into Indonesia, Mr Gregg also confirmed that Qantas was investigating opportunities across the archipelago, and that Jakarta-based Adam Air was a possible target. Last February, PT Adam Skyconnection -- the low-cost carrier which trades as Adam Air -- confirmed it was in talks to sell to Qantas.

Domestic air travel across the Indonesian archipelago rose 16 per cent to 25.3 million last year.

International travel also climbed 7.5 per cent, the country's Central Statistics Bureau has reported.

Qantas had a record net income of $763.6 million in 2005 and is due to file its 2006 results on August 17.

Mr Dixon has said 2006 full-year profit before tax will come in about $670 million.

The Qantas share price was down 3 to $3.06.



The two A330-200's mentioned were always slated for J*I to supplement the other 4. A little twist of the facts from PG or perhaps now Airbus are giving them free or dirt cheap to QF as compensation for the 380.:hmm:

[DirectAnywhere]

What's interesting is that the Fin Review contained a quote from Mr. Gregg that wasn't included in the Herald-Sun article.

It went something along the lines of these new A330-200 aircraft being used on the Shanghai and Mumbai services.

Finally, a recognition from someone in management regarding the stuff-up with the original -200 cabin configuration and the resultant problems with the -300s which can't even make Mumbai direct and are so payload limited to Shanghai it's not funny - especially in Northern Winter with fog etc.

Let's hope they get the configuration and floor strength right this time so these aircraft can be used as they were designed and not for SYD-MEL. Although, I guess it's purely academic from November anyway.

[sydney s/h]

What pisses me off is that Jetstar are getting free A330-200's which are "relatively new" aircraft on the scale of things.

I dont see us (QF Mainline) getting any free aircraft. Why dont bloody Jetstar gives us some $$$ to put towards the purchase of new aircraft to cover the ones we have lost - OR - gives us some money to upgrade the interiors of those worn out 767-300's.:*

[soldier of fortune]

yes there is nothing better than spending 8 hrs during a nightshift clearing the blocked galley sinks and drains on a b767 ZX aircraft because of brainless bent as short haul F/As keep pouring coffee/and who know's what else down there!!!!!!:{ :{ :{ :{

from sydney short haul
quote:
What pisses me off is that Jetstar are getting free A330-200's which are "relatively new" aircraft on the scale of things.: end quote

but hey what about the IFE:D :D

[sydney s/h]

Hey buddy - those drains dont block up from SH FA's pouring incorrect stuff down them, they block up from being crap drains.
We fly on 767-300GE/300RR, 737-400/800, A330-200/300 and do they others block up? Ummm... nope.
767RR have issues. I know they are a work horse, we bash them up and down the east coast all day with near full pax loads on every sector on 40min turnarounds from 6am till 11pm. No wonder they struggle at times.
As far as the IFE is concerned - they have the system sorted on the A330-200's. Its the 300's that suck. So lets give the 200's to Jetstar. Typical
And be careful throwing stones at SH FA's. Domestic engineering can leave alot to be desired. Some of your Syd LAME's need an attitude adjustment.

[speedbirdhouse]

S.O.F,

Not justifying the actions of the brain dead who block galley sink with coffee grounds however there was a recent issue with the re- re- configured ex Australian Airlines 763s.

The water boilers in the front galley were fitted with long spouts, which together with the clear hoses would not allow the J/C bodum "coffee" :rolleyes: jugs to fit UNDER them without tilting them almost 45 degrees.

It was almost impossible to not spill grounds into the sink if they were filled much above half full.

I believe the problems were logged in the CCL but it may explain your recent frustrations........

Sorry about the major thread drift.

[soldier of fortune]

:confused: yeh sorry about that -im just in a stone throwing mood tonight-:confused:
i won't throw any more

[sydney s/h]

Hey SOF,

Think job security! If all the stuuupid FA's pour coffee etc down the drain then your in a job buddy!

Now thats a rare thing these days...Qf and job security!

[r3please]

SMH.COM.AU
Scott Rochfort
July 27, 2006

QANTAS has provided its sternest signal yet that it will need to step up its cost-cutting efforts to offset the relentless rise in fuel costs and fight off increased competition from Middle Eastern and Asian carriers.

Prompting speculation Qantas could use its annual results briefing in Sydney next month to announce a fresh cost-cutting drive on top of chief executive Geoff Dixon's plans to slash $3 billion in costs by mid-2008, the airline's chief financial officer, Peter Gregg, said the airline faced a "further aggressive program of reforms over the next two years".

With Qantas already slashing $1.5 billion in costs over the past three years, Mr Gregg said the airline had identified another $1.2 billion in cuts but hinted that could only be the start.

"There's a huge amount of work being done on that identification process," Mr Gregg said.

He said the $1.2 billion in savings already took into account the recent decision to restructure the airline's long-haul engineering operations, including the closure of its Sydney 747 maintenance base.

It did not include savings which could arise from a restructure of Qantas's short-haul maintenance base in Tullamarine.

Qantas claims it faces $1 billion in extra fuel costs this year.

Mr Gregg declined to say which areas of the Qantas business could undergo further cost cutting.

Mr Gregg also blamed Qantas's recent history of record profits - not expected to be repeated this year - for fuelling criticisms aimed at its cost-cutting programs. "Because of this it's hard to convince some people of the need for further reforms in the industry in Australia."

Two years since seeing its planned alliance with Air New Zealand rejected by competition regulators on both sides of the Tasman, Qantas has also warned it has been put at a major disadvantage compared to other Asia-Pacific airlines which have been allowed to consolidate.

Following Cathay's recent purchase of fellow Hong Kong carrier Dragon Air and talk Singapore Airlines could soon take a stake in China Eastern, Mr Gregg said the national carrier was being hobbled in its attempts to take part in the wave of consolidation sweeping the industry around the world.

"Here in Australia, which represents less than 2 per cent of the global aviation market, Qantas and Air New Zealand are not allowed to consolidate," Mr Gregg told the Asia Pacific Aviation Summit in Brisbane yesterday.

On the emergence of mega-carriers in Asia, Mr Gregg said: "All these developments have major implications for Qantas."

Amid signs that any possible merger of Singapore Air and Qantas has been placed far back on the burner, Mr Gregg could not highlight any other major foreign airlines Qantas could team with.

:ugh:

[Buster Hyman]

Should have bought Ansett when they had the chance!:p;)

[max autobrakes]

Hey this is getting boring .
Bring back Vesuvius Ignoramus!
Where are you?
Not on holidays on a beach in Austria are you Wayne?

[international hog driver]

Yeah where is our mate Lucius Maximus Ignoramus?

I heard this a week back but just believed it was hype about the previously extra two 332’s coming for pornstar. However a little birdy droped some poop in my pigeon hole that says they will be full 233T versions with the all the problems previously mentioned rectified before delivery. These frames could then be used primarily for PVG & BOM ex SYD.

As to talk for freighters the 400F is no more as all slots are gone. Does this mean that if there has been a policy change on the old rhetoric “There’s no money in freight” then we might see 747NG freighters………… prequelling pax versions.

Think of the timings….
743 on the last legs by then.
Early 744s hitting the 20 yr mark.
Common rating for the 744
Common engines for the 787
Boeing super keen to get a “A list” pax launch customer……

However it does mean that someone will have to under cut Atlas……which I suppose gives someone the chance to limbo better then Jetstar!:ugh: :hmm: :{ ;) :yuk: :E

:}
ps: I did not mean to copy Taildraggers other thread, it just means we must be thining onlong the same lines....... ooohhhh that is scary for atleast one of us!