Pilot Suspensions / Mt Cook Airlines

[eureka]

See in the Otago Daily Times that several Mt Cook pilots have been suspended in the last week for refusing to work other than the roster. also hear on the grapevine that these pilots were left high and dry and required to get their own way home from Queenstown - two days later after the snow in a rental car. Isn't that pretty low of the management. What is going on at Mt Chook? :ugh:

[Hanz Blix]

Well they are working to rule down there so I guess this was expected to happen at some stage or another:ugh:

Not bagging management but it does appear that its a whole lot of sqobbling over very small amounts of money.

A little good will from said company (returning the good will pilot group has shown) would prob go a long way to having this dispute sorted.

Good luck to all:ok:

[stoidiuoy]

Good job.

They need to get over themselves down there. The boys in NSN might be getting closer to flying ATR's.

[Hanz Blix]

removed post, decided not to argue with the idiot above

[sexy time]

The MEN in NSN will never fly ATR's........Q400s maybe!

[fly real fast]

boys... you are deluding yourselves to ever consider that the NSN boys will ever get their hands on the Q400's. Just a management ploy to create competition amongst the troops who effectively work for the same company. You need to be working together, supporting better working conditions etc etc. Nsn and Q400's will NEVER happen. It came up with Nsn's negotiations last time and i can assure you it will come up next time.:ugh:

[snail]

Quote "Good job.
They need to get over themselves down there. The boys in NSN might be getting closer to flying ATR's."
stoidiuoy-do you have any idea what the issues are with these negotiations?
If you did you wouldn't be making those idiotic comments.
Get back in your tomahawk and shut up!

[fly real fast]

Stupidiuoy: Remove the blinkers and open your eyes buddy. To even consider Nsn would fly the ATR's or Q400's is stupid. i will give my left nut to Ron Jeremy if that ever happened.:rolleyes:

[iceblock]

Hi,

Can you please package pack left nut in ice and send by courier.


Thanks in advance,

Ron Jeremy


PS: As previously discussed on the phone, before sending I would like the use of wax rather than razor. Cheers Ron.

[Hanz Blix]

:} The whole point here is for other pilot groups to be supportive! the whole reason this industry is going the way it is, is because we numb nuts like idiot and we lay down to easy (not talking in the sack).

Its about bloody time a pilot group stood up for what they wanted. Also remember they are working to rule! not shuting the company down by walking out for a day, shows good will is still there.

Good luck to the boys and girls at chook, hope you get what your asking:ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

FRF,

If you are a pilot, you should already know:

1. You can bet your job;
2. You can bet your wife;
3. You NEVER bet your balls......:}

However, I've met a few soprano pilots in the last couple 'o years.:E

[sexy time]

FRF,

The "bigger aircraft" issue did come up last contract nego and did get incorporated into the present contract........NEVER say NEVER!

I don't agree with the "divide and conquer" strategy employed by big brother but the leverage obtained between the subsidiaries is the reason that they have been allowed to continue as their own entities until now....

[Dixons Cider]

Typical blardy pilots!!!
Here's a group of guys who have stood up to the penny pinching miserable management that is universal in this industry, they held the line, and sounds like they have now paid the price.

And within a matter of a few threads this post has deteriated into a bunch of twits bleating on about how they could possibly benefit from it.

This thread typifies the state of our industry - We take one small step forward and before the bed has even gone cold, our supposed colleagues are circling overhead and scrapping over the carcasse.

I am bloody sick of it! If only I could wind the clock back, with the benefit of hindsight I would not have my arse rotting in a aluminiuim tube. There are too many snakes and rats in this game, and it aint gettin better!!!!!

:* :*

To all the NM boys and girls at the coal face who are up against the might of the overlords - good luck to you, I have no idea of your case or cause, but thoughts are with you. :ok:

[Crack]

:D
I stated along time ago that in order for pilots to not continue getting screwed, all need to get together and keep the aluminium on the ground.
Weed out the soft cocks::mad: :mad:
In 1986 flying a Motueka air services Az-truk & PA:31, I was getting NZD's $34,500:
To re- enter the NZ system now with 13500 hrs,and have to be happy in the right seat, and get $36.000,
and have to move location, and be thankful for being allowed to operate within a third world, yes I said third world managed operation, that pay up their compliance fee's, get the box's ticked, and a management that buries their heads in the sand with their professional Act.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: I shall add under a CAA run by self serving so called professionals ,that have long lost their aviation passion, and just take take take:
In 1997 as a expat depending on the exchange rate I was earning circa $NZD's $150,000.
Enter Sept 11th: (Yeah I know they all used it as an excuse for some reason to lay off heaps?. ) through to October 2004, we had to sign 4 new "permanent" contracts, each with a demise in salary, 2004 it was NZD's $ 68,000 :
I have to my "shame":p known whores that had more self respect than I then had:
One morning I woke up; and did not want to do it anymore, I did not enjoy it anymore.
I actually called them and told them ( so childishly) to stick it := := Man it felt SO SO good, they could'nt believe me, they even had the audasity to ask what was wrong:ugh: :ugh:
I quit:
Pay for your training, pay for your type ratings, $100.000 student loans, then get paid peanuts, Oh and don't forget the tube of KY to add to your flight case.:eek:
My mate ( I have the Odd one you know) is driving a courier run 5 nights a week for a bank, He makes NZD's $130.000.
And yes I am now living back in NZ:
Now its 04:30 am and I am going for a beer or three.
Am I passionate about aviation? dam right I am, and now I get great reward in giving my time to young ones that maybe can't afford the money? in teaching them subject matter, and Micro lite instruction.
Don't continue to bitch about it, have some faith in your self and bloody well do something about it.
Crack.
Bring on the Vitriol comment.:ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

This whole argument is about a couple of minor points in the contract negotiation.

The new pay rates have already been agreed to, but management refuse to backdate them to the end of the last CEA (about six months ago). The only reason any backdating is required is due to management's refusal to negotiate fairly in the first place. The other issue is firm business class travel to the sim (this should be a given).

Anyone who thinks this is acceptable management practice needs their head read. I would imagine the small amount of money required to finalise negotiations has now been spent many times over dealing with the industrial action. Flights are being canceled on a daily basis, which creates a huge headache for much of the domestic network.

This is simply a case of management cutting off their nose to spite their face. It is childish of them to try and keep the pilot group under the thumb like this, particularly a group of pilots who normaly do their utmost to keep the operation ticking along as well as it does. We're now seeing what results from removing that good will.

As others have stated, we need to stick together with our Mt Cook colleagues. Talk of Air Nelson taking over is not helpful, and borne out of ignorance and greed. Any Air Nelson pilot who is rubbing their hands together at the prospect should be put out of their misery.

To the boys and girls at Mt Cook, keep standing firm. We are all behind you.

BTW, if you hear traffic staff bagging MC pilots for the disruptions, please educate them as to the real cause of the problem.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

The new pay rates have already been agreed to, but management refuse to backdate them to the end of the last CEA (about six months ago). The only reason any backdating is required is due to management's refusal to negotiate fairly in the first place.
Does this sound like another sleezy company's tactics?
EASTERN's:ugh:
Stand 'yr ground boys:ok:

TDI

[pakeha-boy]

Cloud mate...great post and well said,...you say minor points,that maybe true,but for those of us who have been in negotiations with mgt before AND been threatened with punitive actions,...those minor points ultimately show the backbone,ethics,and principles....of those involved.

Some may scoff at those as illusions,but let me tell you this,....pilots who are behind you but dont feel they want to be in the negotiation process or know there are better qualified people to handle the tricky parts,will thank you for your service,s...not all want to be at the table,but anyone who care,s about their livelyhood will always take a keen interest and show support when required.

This Mgt is no different than any other,and we all know the game,and its all about stiking the best deal for whatever side you are on.....the bottom line,..both sides need to be able to compromise.

stoiduoy......where do you live,I,d like to come and see you:E

[Capt. On Heat]

I would'nt mind seeing the great idiot in person too. PM the address Pakeha when you know, we'll make a road trip of it!

Good post Cloud.:D
P.S. It's approaching 9 months of :ugh: now for the troops, but understand mediation later this week so who knows what may happen.

[nike]

Any more news re these suspensions?

[Dixons Cider]

My faith is renewed! There are some REAL people out there!

Ref my earlier post;
I am bloody sick of it! If only I could wind the clock back, with the benefit of hindsight I would not have my arse rotting in a aluminiuim tube. There are too many snakes and rats in this game, and it aint gettin better!!!!!

Stoidiuoy - you and your ilk are the snakes and someday, somewhere, somebody will step on your head.

To the others that have shown me that intestinal fortitude still exists - good onya.

My best wishes to the NM drivers, and hopefully they will come out of this with their heads held high. To do so will benefit all in some way - even the snakes! :*

[slamer.]

Outa curiosity, where does Mt Cook go for SIM's and on who do you travel ??

Thanks

PS; I would suggest there is little to zero chance of the Air NSN boys/gals operating ATR 72/42's (or any other Mt Cook aircraft) so dont get too upset about a clear " wind-up"

[Hanz Blix]

Banggers for sims, travel in there own time hence the want for the better seats! Even EAG has that clause for crying out loud:eek:

[nike]

The whole point here is for other pilot groups to be supportive!
Even EAG has that clause for crying out loud

I like your first quote better Blix.

[Cloud Cutter]

Yes, because of course, a pilot group's right to comfortable long haul travel should depend on the size of their equipment...... hmmmmm :ugh:

[Hanz Blix]

Smart buggers, point I'm tring to make is that is a standard contract clause for all airlines! Its not greediness on behalf of the pilots but the complete opposite. Any management team with thier fingers on the pulse would see the benefits of it.

"PILOTS, we will travel in our own time to the destinations to save the company the hassle of 2-3 extra days travel because of duty time"

"COMPANY, hell no your trying to rip us off!!!!!!!!!"

Silly way of making the point but come on:ugh:

I will attempt to be more serious in future:ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

Well Hanz, I hope the atempted humour in my post was not lost on you either. Serious is for boring people ;)

[Airslasher]

Any more news re these suspensions?

Nike, they were just day suspensions due to crews refusing to fly flights after unscheduled overnights as per the strike notice (well, crews offered to position to Christchurch empty but were told no thanks, and then in some cases non-union pilots were paxed in to do just that!) Hence some pilots were told to find their own way home to Christchurch from the places they were stuck in. About the lowest most digusting act from the company in the dispute so far. :yuk: Real "Family Culture" attitude being shown from the management. The stream of crap being spouted is beyond a joke. At least the company's tactics have brought and kept the troops all together. :ok: If you're keen on Cook, get the CV in, a lot of good people are assessing their options and there might be some folks moving on sooner than they planned to. :{ Taking it's toll on the non-union guys too having to pick up so much slack. All this nonsense for pilots, cabin crew, ops, check-in and traffic staff and passengers is ridiculous. At least Vincent is loving it I guess!

Good on you Cloud and others, the guys (and gals!) appreciate the support from you all. :D As for Stoidiouy, I thinking dropping the 's' is more befitting of you.

P.S. The meeting this week referred to earlier went, well you can probably guess..........:ugh:

[nike]

Thanks Airslasher.

Why spend so much time & effort seeking out good people to then treat them with contempt?
I hope your management has that epiphany before it's too late.

[Sqwark2000]

I heard that AirNZ Management have called in some independant arbitrators to try and settle this contract dispute asap.

Anyone else who can verify this move??


S2K

[Hanz Blix]

S2K your motion is second vote:ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

Another mediation was due to happen today, after PO told to bring someone to the table who is able to negotiate.

Anyone know how it went?

[Airslasher]

That was a rumour Cloud. No more meetings yet. Company and ALPA have made new/(probably old reworded) submissions to mediator and he'll let 'em know what he thinks of them next week. PO has gone on leave now anyway-perhaps on a P&O cruise. That guy is just great. Anyone else want him?

Sqwark-Different mouth-same :yuk:

[Hanz Blix]

Any word? some good news maybe?:confused:

[takingitfromfyfe]

Few tumbleweeds blowing past in the negotiating office.

The Mount Cook management have gone on vacation (a lot like the Air New Zealand management common sense), Hasn't made a lick of difference to the rate of progress. Still Zero, Good one guys :D

Just give me more of the pineapple this time thanks........ :ugh:

[Airslasher]

Ahh, the gentle rustle of management folk. AirNZ/Mt Cook have taken issue to the employment watchdog citing the pilots for passenger disrupts etc, almost as if to say they haven't been bargining in good faith!!!:D :D :D :D :D :D Hahahahahahahaha!!!! Ahhhh they never fail to impress. Carefully placed CEO talk of parking up an aeroplane(s?) and laying off pilots and flight attendents adds to the flavour. Good one Pete! Leading the company to prosperous times!!!!

And to the disrupted passengers,


Dear Sir/Madam,

We would like to apologise for your disrupted travel plans. The good will of our pilots by working on their days off/annual leave covers sickness and unforseen disruptions. At the moment we are penny pinching and trying to shaft them, both in less than CPI wage increases from 9 months ago when their contract ran out and half decent travel to their simulator details in Thailand. All other AirNZ pilots groups have this 'right' but 22 hours travelling followed by a test that requires a pass to keep your job is not reason enough. Oh yeah, we're the ones who send them to a 2nd-3rd world city with recent bombings but they're so well treated.....honest. Anyway, these evil, overpayed, underworked pilots aren't working on their days off now so your flight had to be cancelled. Don't worry though because as passengers you are as valuable to us as our staff so we will treat you accordingly. If your flight hasn't been cancelled please find your Vincent aircraft at Gate 10, ready to board approximately 3 hours after your booked flight. Have a great week!

Sincerely

The powers that be.

[eureka]

[good faith!!!:D :D :D :D :D :D Hahahahahahahaha!!!! Ahhhh they never fail to impress. Good one Pete! Leading the company to prosperous times!!!!

And to the disrupted passengers,
Airslasher you have hit the nail on the head, however the actual letter that 'Asymmetric Pete' is giving out to the customers goes something like this and is just as funny.

Dear Customer
Your flight today has been affected because of industrial action by Mount Cook Airline pilots. in my capacity as General Manager of Mount Cook Airline, I wish to express my sincere apologies for the resulting disruption to your schedule.

Whilst both Mount Cook Airline and Air New Zealand have endeavoured to minimise the impact of this industrial action, regrettably on this occasion the cancellation of your flight has been unavoidable.

I trust that any alternative travel arrangements we have made for you are not too unfavourable. Should you require further assistance please approach one of our staff or call Air New Zealand reservations toll free on 0800 737 000.

Once again, please accept my sincere apologies for the inconvenience this cancellation has caused.

Yours sincerely,

GM:(
MT Cook Airline

This airline is too much!!! Couldn't obviously give a toss about its staff or its customers.

[Cloud Cutter]

I wonder if the reluctance to agree to firm business class has anything to do with the recently announced withdrawal of Air NZ on the Singapore route? Assuming this has been in the pipelines for some time.

[Hanz Blix]

Oh dear it just gets worse:yuk:

Wonder how those guys sitting on YES letters with Cook are feeling at the moment!

[takingitfromfyfe]

The way AirNZ treats its staff from year to year I doubt that the ones on the yes letters really give a $%#^^%.....Still Takingitfromfyfe

Unfortunately they may need to be reinterviewed by the time the next flow of jobs comes along. (News of the park ups) Year 200*:8.. Rather be sitting half way up any seniority list than on the bottom of the AirNZ one.

Glad to see some replies to this thread, pilots were showing as much interest in it as the GM shows in good business sense, the can do attitude, family culture, efficiency focus, relationship with AirNZ:} (Do you think Pete has bigger plans?? butt kisser).

It affects us ALL in some way... direct or indirect.

and yes, still t.i.f.f.:ouch: MMMM Rob give it to me longhaul style

[Airslasher]

Eureka, yeah, got a copy of that letter myself. Another letter at Dunedin airport showing the correspondance between a staff member (their concerns with the current situation) there and Big Rob is as funny as OEI (One Engine Inoperative for those uninitiated) Pete's effort.

Anyway, mediation back on for the coming Monday and possible Employment Relations Authority for Wednesday.

I can't even see how this could be (the only apparent reason) 'getting one over the staff." They're already earning less than the last 3 years with inflation, and that would still be the case with the amount proposed for agreement. Taking It From Fyfe is right, I used to like pineapple!

Cloud. To be frank it doesn't matter a sh*t where AirNZ's routes are. You don't stick staff on longhaul work travel (in their own bloody time!) in coach with min. rest and expect them to perform in Sim checks. Last I recall we lived in NZ in 2006, not Victorian England. If they hadn't tried to shaft Thai Airways at the start of the year they probably would have a half decent arrangement with them now anyway. Put the lads on Emirates, Thai, Singapore, Qantas, whoever and via wherever. It's not our problem if a bean counter in Auckland wants to pull out of Singapore and fly more to half arse destinations in China!

Between passengers and staff dealing with the management balls up I wonder how many more apologies Pete's got left in him. Are there enough trees for all the paper required to write these letters? The pilots who got suspended and told to find their own ways home have had apologies too. Would that be an admission of guilt/wrong doing by the company......? Perhaps some back pay compensation is due to them...........:ok:

[MOR]

You don't stick staff on longhaul work travel (in their own bloody time!) in coach with min. rest and expect them to perform in Sim checks.

Lol... some of you guys need to get out more - like outside the little aviation backwater that is NZ! Many companies do this, with the added excitement of sim sessions that start at 0300 on your body clock. I can remember more than one time when I did six difficult winter sectors, straight into a hire car for a four hour drive to the sim, then six hours rest and up in the middle of the night for a check.

The airlines that punt their crews around in business class could probably be counted on one hand... maybe two.

I'm not saying you are wrong - you are quite right about the way crews SHOULD be treated - but it is increasingly rare these days. Mt Cook are simply following the international trend.

[Cloud Cutter]

That's right, it is the way we SHOULD be treated. That's the whole point, trying not to let Ts & Cs get erroded to the state they're at in other parts of the aviation world. Look what's happening in Aus at the moment, we don't want that, and we won't accept it. Very few pilots arround the world have to travel so far for their sim training anyway.

If you compare the quality of life of a Mount Cook pilot, with someone from Easyjet or Ryanair, I think we know who comes out on top (even Money-wise when you factor everything in). There is a move for management to view pilots as an expendable part of the labour force, and treat them accordingly. That is what we must all resist. I see this as a test case. If things go too far down hill, I will have no problem changing careers.

[fly real fast]

Mor:
You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots. Well I suppose thats probably one of the reasons why you left. Kept on shafting others. := :=

[belowMDA]

Fly realy fast, ah come again. do you want to explain your logic reasoning there for us slower flying types?

[haughtney1]

You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots. Well I suppose thats probably one of the reasons why you left. Kept on shafting others.

Sums it up really.......if your'e a butt muncher:}

Fly Real Fast...mayby you need to use the freely available oxygen that the rest of use..otherwise your gonna keep coming out with braindead comments like that:8

[fly real fast]

Lol... some of you guys need to get out more - like outside the little aviation backwater that is NZ! Many companies do this, with the added excitement of sim sessions that start at 0300 on your body clock. I can remember more than one time when I did six difficult winter sectors, straight into a hire car for a four hour drive to the sim, then six hours rest and up in the middle of the night for a check.

If people think the comments above are the norm for pilots, certain companies are di*king you real hard. If you are accepting working conditions like that you are more of an idiot than your last post.

[MOR]

Very few pilots arround the world have to travel so far for their sim training anyway.

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. I have met up with plenty of crews at, say, FSC in Maastricht or BAe at Woodford who have just travelled 18-20 hours to get to the sim - in fact, most of them have. The only ones who haven't are the ones who live in the USA or Europe - but of course there are many airlines that aren't in either place.

There is a move for management to view pilots as an expendable part of the labour force, and treat them accordingly.

Wakey wakey - pilots ARE an expendable part of the workforce, and will always be whilst there are more pilots than jobs. NZ airlines have been very slow to erode T's and C's compared to American or European airlines - how many US pilots have taken massive pay cuts in the last few years? You should be grateful that NZ pilots don't face what US pilots frequently do.

And as far as quality of life is concerned, I'd say Mt Cook wins hands-down.

I agree that you should resist it, I am merely pointing out that the world is moving in a different direction, and you shouldn't be surprised if the current situation turns out to be the tip of the iceberg.

fly real fast

You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots.

A pity you are unable to read or comprehend what I said... so let me help you out with a little repeat of what I said:

I'm not saying you are wrong - you are quite right about the way crews SHOULD be treated

If people think the comments above are the norm for pilots, certain companies are di*king you real hard. If you are accepting working conditions like that you are more of an idiot than your last post.

Well if you ever get out in the real world, sonny, you will find out how wrong you are. Just keep those blinkers on, they obviously make you feel a whole lot happier... even the instructors at Cranfield know better.

[Airslasher]

MOR,

You can think it's a pissy backwater all you like, don't come swimming down here then. It's a Dunnunda forum and this is an issue which is affecting a lot of people down here at the moment. We are trying to NOT end up with the kinds of T's and C's you have already accepted long ago. How many posts have there been about pilots needing to stick together and support one another and then you come out trumpeting how hard you let a company give it to you. No wonder aviation is becoming less of a career and more of an ordinary job, sifting around stepping on anybody else in order to get your own ass ahead to get that "passenger jet job" to finally pay off your training and all the damn ratings you've bought. We do have 10pm-2am and 2-6am local time sim sessions and then the day ones when your body thinks it night anyway. I don't know of one person who can't notice whether they've have business class or coach travel after arriving at a hotel 22 hours after you left home.

Since you're in charge of world aviation MOR, why do Mount Cook pilots not deserve the same travel to sim standards as all other parts of the AIRNZ group? It's called negotiating in good faith. Why should we bend over at the lowest conditions offered by our employer? You seem to want us to grab our ankles at the first opportunity. How about sticking up for your collegues? I'd like to say I'd stick up for you all if you had REASONABLE claims in an employment dispute. That includes pilot unions representing large airlines, turbo-props and even the C Cat on his/her own down at the local aero club.

[fly real fast]

MOR,
As airslasher said....Loser:8

[piontyendforward]

Slash
why do Mount Cook pilots not deserve the same travel to sim standards as all other parts of the AIRNZ group?

If you are looking to get Mount Cook pilots the same sim (i.e. non duty) travel as the AIRNZ group pilots, then it's called economy class. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when the B733 training was contracted to Ansett Aussie. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when training was done by Boeing in the States, United Airlines and with Air Canada. Also when AirNZ management pilots travel to any overseas meetings they only ever get economy without upgrades.

The only time pilots in the Air NZ group travel J class is flights associated with operational duty travel i.e. pilot is paxing to fly a service or return from a flight duty.

However if you think you can get it go for it, as it might tip the scales on the costs to get an ATR sim in NZ!

If the Mt Cook pilots stick together you will get there, Good Luck and fly safe

[ZFT]

However if you think you can get it go for it, as it might tip the scales on the costs to get an ATR sim in NZ!

Maybe is has - ANZ have already ordered an ATR Mechtronix device for delivery mid 2007.

As to Airslasher's comment "2nd-3rd world city with recent bombings " BKK is probably one of the safest cities to be in and 2nd-3rd world. I don't think so.

[max rate]

Um,

The ANZ CEA I have in front of me says that if I travel to a Sim overseas then I travel In business, simple as that. Not a big ask from the NM fellas, I can't imagine why it is not a given considering the distance involved. MOR, you are either management, or a s%^B, I can't figure out which and I don't really care. If you look at the salary and conditions of an Australasian pilot, I think you will find they far less (when converted through the greenback and you have to do that to compare apples with apples) than the airline pilots in the mainline carriers in the states..........after their paydrop! If you are actually a pilot, do everyone a favour and resist the temptation to post utter crap on this forum, Cheers!:yuk:
NM guys, Stick to your guns. you are not asking for too much:ok:

[MOR]

You can think it's a pissy backwater all you like, don't come swimming down here then.

Well the pejorative term is yours, I never called it that. I swim here because I live here.

We are trying to NOT end up with the kinds of T's and C's you have already accepted long ago.

Well actually the Ts & Cs I have worked under have almost all been better than Mt Cook - because I was a part of the pilot council that negotiated them - and if you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I support the efforts to keep the T's & C's that you have. All I am saying is that the worldwide trend is the other way, and that you will eventually lose. I am not saying that this is a good thing, I am simply pointing out the other side of the argument. Why can you people not read the thread before beating your chests?

One other thing that I will say, is that NZ aviation has a highly "unionised" mentality that is at odds with the majority of progressive airlines. Instead of digging your heels and and blindly battling these issues, you should take a more long-term view. If in fact your company has invested in a new sim, they have effectively done you a huge favour, and everything that you are whinging about will history as soon as the sim is delivered. But none of you oh-so-bolshy pilots have noticed that, have you? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Read what piontyendforward says, if he is correct then your argument just went down the gurgler.

MOR, you are either management, or a s%^B, I can't figure out which and I don't really care.

Another idiot that can't read. See above.

I think you will find they far less (when converted through the greenback and you have to do that to compare apples with apples) than the airline pilots in the mainline carriers in the states..........after their paydrop!

And that is completely irrelevant. Ask a US pilot who had to sell his home because he couldn't afford the repayments after losing a large chunk of his salary. And in any case, you can't compare a Mt Cook pilot salary with a mainline US carrier. Maybe a (very) small regional carrier, but even it is dangerous comparison, as very few US regionals are as small as Mt Cook.

[Airslasher]

My good MOR:
I never called it that
little aviation backwater that is NZ!

If you're going to lie so blatently why should we even consider anything you say? I find the backwater derogatory. Many pilots stay in the NZ turbo-prop scene because they WANT to, not because they aren't good enough to leave as you imply with that comment. And then deride/tell them not to bother when they want to protect their jobs and those of future aircrew.

everything that you are whinging about will history as soon as the sim is delivered
This Sim would only be useful in part, a 12 monthly trip to Bangkok would still be required. And it's not a done deal yet. I have bothered to read your posts MOR but when you state
you will eventually lose that to me sums up how you have missed the point of anyone else with a view opposed to your own.

Instead of digging your heels and and blindly battling these issues, you should take a more long-term view. This is about future T's and C's for Cook pilots and others at Nelson and Eagle for that matter. What is not long term about it??? You have still not supplied a constructive alternative other than "shut up, give in, you guys have it all already." We don't want anymore - just don't believe when all things are considered with our company that we should be going backwards.

Pointy, I think that for any travel to sim over the 6ish hour mark then business class travel is the standard. And ZFT I'll stick with my 2nd/3rd world comment thanks-it's my impression of the place. Trying to lynch their PM a few months ago made me feel pretty good walking around the place too.

[takingitfromfyfe]

Valid post Slasher, Lucky MOR isn't negotiating for us. 2 dollar whanchai hooker comes to mind. Bangkok breed of course.

Please insert the coconut this time.....:mad:........ Ta

By the way, when is Fyfes court appearance. Hear it is some time next month..... Good luck Bro;)

TIFF

[MOR]

If you're going to lie so blatently why should we even consider anything you say?

If you are going to quote me, do it properly. You used the word "pissing", I didn't. You are the one who is lying.

The term "backwater" in no way implies that NZ aviation is good or bad, simply that it is disconnected from the rest of the world and not representative of what goes on there. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of pilots, or the quality of anything else for that matter. You would be better off canning the 1950's union rhetoric, and actually reading what I wrote.

that to me sums up how you have missed the point of anyone else with a view opposed to your own.

How very typical of a closed-minded kiwi attitude. Look at the rest of the world - if you do, you will see that many, many airlines have been down the road that Mt Cook is currently going down, and the result is always the same. You either adapt or die - and there are ways to win, but you are so blinkered that you will never see them.

You have still not supplied a constructive alternative other than "shut up, give in, you guys have it all already."

I never said anything of the sort, in fact I have said exactly the reverse. I have now stated in three seperate posts that I support the cause of the Mt Cook pilots. You clearly HAVEN'T read what I have posted.

Anyway, you and your union buddies believe what you want. At least have the decency to READ and UNDERSTAND what I said, and maybe - just maybe - you could manage to respect a dissenting opinion. Probably not, though, you are far more interested in jumping to conclusions than arguing the points on their merits.

[Airslasher]

I actually used the word "pissy." Don't really want to argue english with you but as I said I took backwater as the pejorative term. No lying there.

Despite your consistent accusations I'm not a 'balls to the wall' staunch union man. I do however think it is the best way to go in matters such as these and support ALPA as my representation (and therefore my collegues) 100%.

I have now stated in three seperate posts that I support the cause of the Mt Cook pilots.

That's good MOR, and I HAVE read that but the rest of your posts seem to contradict yourself. Again what do you suggest we do? What are these "ways to win" you speak of? I (admittedly grudgingly!:ok: ) respect your dissenting opinion. However, I still think that we have valid (and very minor in the financial scheme of things) claims and should stick to our guns. The inevitable result you prophesize MOR, will only become inevitable when we think 'f**k it' and throw in the towel.

you will see that many, many airlines have been down the road that Mt Cook is currently going down, and the result is always the same. You either adapt or die

Adapt? How? By increasing our sphinctal diameter? Many airlines have done it before? As I said previously with OUR circumstances and OUR company (yes OUR small, out of touch, backwater, close-minded, blinkered, isolated situation) we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

By the way, nice front page article in today's ODT too. Looking suspiciously like a story founded on information from company sources, half truths etc rampant throughout. :=

[MOR]

what do you suggest we do? What are these "ways to win" you speak of?

Not sure that it would be smart to discuss that on an open forum... I'm sure your management are reading this.

The inevitable result you prophesize MOR, will only become inevitable when we think 'f**k it' and throw in the towel.

Not at all. Let's think back to another body of pilots that "stuck to their guns" around 1989, in a place not too far from here. What happened to them, and their lofty principles? Most of them ended up flying "rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong".

And then there was that other airline with a name beginning with "A", on our own fair shores. What happened to them again? And "their" airline?

You may think that you can beat your management, but the evidence is overwhelmingly the other way.

"Smart" beats "militant" every time.

Adapt? How? By increasing our sphinctal diameter?

No, by being smarter than your management. How hard could that be?

As I said previously with OUR circumstances and OUR company (yes OUR small, out of touch, backwater, close-minded, blinkered, isolated situation) we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

Yes but it isn't YOUR company. It belongs to shareholders who want to see maximum return and minimum cost. They aren't on your side. They are (essentially) the enemy.

we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

But you are the only ones who do (apart from me of course). To your management and your shareholders, you are irritating primadonnas. Or do you think that they respect you?

[kmagyoyo]

Action by pilots upsets travellers
By Dene Mackenzie Friday, 21st July 2006

Ongoing industrial action by some Mount Cook Airline pilots is causing frustration for Dunedin travellers as they find their flights cancelled and miss connections.

The Otago Daily Times was approached by travel agents complaining about the actions of the Mount Cook pilots on ATR flights between Dunedin and Christchurch.

It appeared the most popular flight for cancellation was the 10.05am service to Christchurch, which connected with the Singapore Air international flight.

The ODT was told pilots were phoning in sick at the last minute and that other pilots were not making themselves available as replacements.

Dunedin International Airport Ltd chief executive John McCall said yesterday’s 10.05am flight was cancelled and flights were being cancelled on a daily basis.

“Very rarely does a day go by without a flight being cancelled. We have had multiple flights cancelled for some reason or another.”

There was no pattern, with morning, afternoon and evening services all being cancelled at the last minute at various times, he said when contacted.

The airport company had been given no official reason for the cancellations, which were having a “huge disruptive impact” on travellers. The Christchurch-Dunedin services made up 47% of the airport’s capacity and to have that disrupted meant significant problems, Mr McCall said.

Otago Chamber of Commerce chief executive John Christie urged the airline to find a fast solution to the industrial action, as it was starting to hit business.

Missed international connections were a big issue for Dunedin businesspeople, he said.

To have a last-minute cancellation and a missed international connection was irritating, to say the least, Mr Christie said.

Dunedin travel agents Russell Duff, from VIP International Travel, and Vincent George, of Vincent George House of Travel, confirmed their clients were being disadvantaged, but paid tribute to the Air New Zealand staff at the airport who they said worked hard to rebook people on alternative flights.

Mr Duff said many flights were being cancelled with less than 24 notice. While every athours tempt was made to contact passengers, some would turn up at the airport to find their flights cancelled.

Crew sickness was the standard reason for the cancelled flights.

“This is clearly a ploy by pilots to make a point, but it is causing frustration within the industry.”

Mr George said there was probably no other way for the pilots to get their point across, but it was causing problems for their colleagues in the travel industry.

(cut and paste from the website; spelling and grammar nazi's contact ODT)

[Hanz Blix]

Surprise surprise! MOR makes a post and a thread turns to custard:ugh:

Honestly MOR we are all sick of hearing how it is overseas, we are all aware and appreciate what its like and have chosen to stay home for various reasons.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that the pilots are not technically asking for a pay rise mearly a CPI adjustment so they dont take a pay cut (again) for the next three years. Also travel to the sim, they do it in thier own time (to help the companies costs stay down, duty time ect) and all they ask for is an upgrade! Every other link operator has this clause for travel over 4 hours so how is it suddenly not good enough for the COOK pilots?

What this has all proved lately with working to rule ect is that companies (in NZ) struggle to operate an on time efficeint airline with little pax disrupts if the pilots withdraw the good will.:confused:

Good luck to all involved :ok:

HB

[MOR]

Yeah it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start...

[kmagyoyo]

If I was a Manager (mangler) in a Company and I cost/spent/wasted one million dollars in an eight or nine month period to 'save' said Company a hundred thousand bucks would I keep my job?

Throw in destroying the goodwill and morale of the staff, creating friction and angst within the other business units and then finish it all of by distrupting thousands of clients and generally f-king everyone off...how would I go then...promotion maybe?

No; my ar$e would be on the street.

The conspiracy folk are right; if you know the secret handshake thats top work :uhoh:

[Hanz Blix]

"it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start..."

Ok not sure what those comments have to do with mine! Didn't mention a union once me thinks:cool:

What I'm trying to point out is that what is been asked for is a pittance MOR someone whos in the know could point out to you that the pilot group is actualy taking allowance cuts ect in other areas!

As Kmagyoyo says for a little more than the GM's salary a year the company has lost millions fighting it:confused:

[MOR]

What I'm trying to point out is that what is been asked for is a pittance MOR someone whos in the know could point out to you that the pilot group is actualy taking allowance cuts ect in other areas!

And like I keep saying, over and over and over again... I agree with you.

It's the big picture that you need to think about. Yes, it may have cost them millions, but any competent GM knows that when it comes to union disputes, getting your way is worth ten times the cost, when measured against future disputes. Ansett were willing to bet the farm on that, because the prize was so tempting. In the end, they were wrong, but everybody ended up unemployed. There is a lesson there...

[Hanz Blix]

Ok starting to understand your point MOR!

Question for you, say your at your current job earning $65K a year your manager says guess wot your staying on that for the next 6 years. Inflation is 3.5%. So for the next 6 years your quality of life is going to decrease because every day items are getting more expensive and your $ just don't go as far anymore.

WOULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND JEPORDISE YOUR FAMILY?

Thats all they are doing down there union or no union its not wright when the company is creaming it.:=

HB

[MOR]

Question for you, say your at your current job earning $65K a year your manager says guess wot your staying on that for the next 6 years. Inflation is 3.5%. So for the next 6 years your quality of life is going to decrease because every day items are getting more expensive and your $ just don't go as far anymore.

WOULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND JEPORDISE YOUR FAMILY?


Well, that depends. How much do you want to continue flying?

Of course we all know the answer to that one. Pilots are very highly motivated and are generally used to crap conditions before they get to the airlines. Managers know this, and exploit it in pay negotiations. They also know that such a course of action as the one you describe, in no way jeapordises anybodys' family... that is just emotional nonsense. The actual dollar amount is minimal, and in any case nobody knows what inflation will be next year.

One of the features of airline pay negotiations overseas - yes, I know you don't care about anything outside NZ, but hear me out - is that the pilots have to decide just how much they can afford to lose. Some pilots will bet the farm on that 3.5%, others will tighten their belts and be damn thankful that they actually have the flying job they fought so hard to get. Generally, the latter are in the majority and when push comes to shove, that is what will undermine any union negotiations.

You might not think that international trends matter, but the fact is that Air NZ looks overseas to identify trends that it can then exploit. They are an international airline, and they employ people from countries where these things are done very differently. If you want to ignore recent history, that's fine, but your employer will always be two steps ahead of you when it comes to pay negotiations. They are looking at a much bigger picture, and they know more than you do about their business.

Let me ask you another. How would you feel if Air NZ was to close down Mt Cook, transfer the assets to Freedom Air, and re-employ the crews on new T's and C's? And if, in so doing, they were to adopt a low-cost model (a real one), which meant that if you wanted your old job back, you would have to pay for your uniform, your car park, your crew meal, your medicals and licence renewal? You see, you think you have power, but you really don't have that much.

Let's extend it a bit further. Let's say our new LCC, that used to be Mt Cook, was to ditch all the NZ pilots and hire a bunch of guys from Asia?

Before you say "it could never happen", imagine what the Ansett guys were saying before they all ended up unemployed, or the Aussie pilots were saying before they all ended up moving to Europe and Asia in '89.

Ask those guys whether it was all worth it, and see what they say.

How much do you want that flying job?

The flip side is that there is more than one way to skin a cat... and some of the Euro carriers are shining examples of what CAN be achieved if you are SMART.

I'm afraid most NZ airline pay negotiations resemble cave men armed with bludgeons. Lots of blood, but little progress.

Anyway... I support the Mt Cook guys. But I also see the situation differently.

[max rate]

In the sleepy Nz backwater, there is a little industrial law that stops any business from making people redundant and then employing others to fill the void. Makes sense ey! Mt Cook will NOT be closed down, Simple. Do you notice MOR you are about the only dissenting voice here. Are you trying to make yourself feel better for lying down and taking it from behind sometime in the past...........? In one breath you say you support pilots looking to maintain/better their lot and in the next you say pretty much they are fools for trying!:ugh:

[Capt. On Heat]

The conspiracy folk are right; if you know the secret handshake thats top work

Kmag, please don't tell single engine Pete is the Grand Pooh-Bar!!!!!!:eek:

The Otago Daily Times was approached by travel agents complaining about the actions of the Mount Cook pilots on ATR flights between Dunedin and Christchurch.
How about complaining about the actions of the company? (As to which one, AIRNZ or Mt Cook that will depend on which one suits them at the time.)

Mr Duff said many flights were being cancelled with less than 24 notice

What a fine comment. Because people normally call in sick days in advance. If a pilot gave a weeks notice of illness it wouldn't matter, they'd still have to cancel the flight! (Non union pilots being able to cover some of them excepted of course:ok: )

MOR: With all your expertise and cat skinning abilities you should contact ALPA and give them a hand. In a similar vein to Max Rates post, it seems you are an enigma, shrouded in mystery and wrapped up in a dog turd. (Now waiting to be called an idiot and told to reread your posts.)

[Speeds high]

dont worry about MOR, he is negitive about everything, i remember a recent post where someone was asking about Beech 1900 performance, and guess who pipes up saying "who cares", and another where he condensendingly calls a B737 a light twin. As i have said before; yes MOR we all know you are gods gift to aviation, now leave us alone to protect what is ours. You really do have some major chip! wonder where it comes from?

(now also waiting for the bombs to start falling :zzz: )

[Airslasher]

but any competent GM knows that when it comes to union disputes, getting your way is worth ten times the cost, when measured against future disputes

Well it's 15 going on 20 times the cost now. Still competent?:confused:

[nike]

Between this one and the great thread on the kid getting a ride over Auckland recently I agree with you Speeds High, MOR can come across negative.
But beyond the boorish tone and the overbearing attitude, if in this case, MOR is simply playing the devil's advocate, then there are some good points within the lines.

It might be that this dispute could be an opportunity to slow any perceived alignment of NZ CoS with the international trend. With Mt Cook's place at least a couple of tiers away from direct overseas comparison and taking into account the overall package, it all might work in the pilots favour just yet.

The words of these self professed worldly-wise can still be taken in stride, no need to beat-to-quarters each time NZ gets poo-poo-ed, it really doesn't look all too dissimilar from outside looking in.

I hope you get some good news soon.

[slamer.]

If you choose to air your "Industrial Laundry" on a public stage like this, dont get too upset when you attract the jaundice opinion's of the less than "industrially savvy" types this forum traditionally harbours. (you know who!) And for God sake dont actually take any notice!!!

They are usually on the outer of the normal information stream, and lurk here to feel included.

PS: Someone mentioned earlier, an NZ based ATR SIM wouldnt entirely fix the paxing issues....... how is this so ??

Thanks

[Cloud Cutter]

Because it's the cheap kind, not approved for all checks.

[Waka Rider]

Ladies and Gentlemen good luck with your struggle you got both thumbs up from me :ok: :ok:

If you are expected to travel such distances for your training etc it should be good seats. An airline should pride itself in its treatment of its staff particularly those with the ultimate responsibility for the companies most expensive assets.

Really do people want the situation arise that pilots end up paying for tickets so they can get to pay for their sim sessions. Perhaps they will be able to ask passengers which websites to get good deals on. Me thinks that many passengers would be really impressed to discover the people with their lives in their hands are struggling through sim checks due to fatigue and missing out on many valuable items that are experienced through simulators.

MOR many of those airlines you know of that had their pilots travel 20 plus hours to use simulators were they African airlines or from areas with high risk's and poor safety records? Or was the M6 or M25 just busy those days.

You guys at Mt Cook all the best please do the best you can as many people below you, next to you, and that will follow you will appreciate the stand that you are taking for your T and C's.

For those of you with keen eyes and far superior English than I pick away guys as I have passed the one English test that matters to me and my family.

Kia Kaha

[Hanz Blix]

Anymore info????????????????

[takingitfromfyfe]

Sorry Hanz, Something happened on Wednesday with the ERA (employment relations authority) to see if Mount Cook was part of Air New Zealand or some such Sh@t. This will effect all of the link operators in the next set of negotiations.

Ruling late friday......Watch this space (as they say):ugh:

Hope we are all still part of the Koru brand, otherwise just being raped by the master. The old boys talk of ski fields and buses, wonderful business and family to work in. What the F$@k happened.

TIFF

[takingitfromfyfe]

RIP (The original Mount Cook Airline) Thanks H. W.

Kai Kaha

[eureka]

In the Christchurch press today...
Pilots been negotiating since August 2005
On strike work to rule since February, not returning to work on their days off to cover for their sick colleagues.
Airline has cancelled 270 flights
Bargaining now to go to Employment Relations Authority for facilitated bargaining for 'fresh talks'.
Tell me please what difference will this make to the entrenched position that the company has made? Will they now give in to the pilots demands?
Asymetric Pete says "the dispute is about pay and training" also says "its a philosophical debate in negotiations" Philosphical what....does that mean money and giving the pilots the same as other Air New Zealand pilots?
O'Regan would not say how much the dispute had cost the airline. Is it more than the pilot claims? Is it Air New Zealand that is pulling the strings nd why do they want to screw their most productive pilots? Fyfe the knife is rife.......:ugh:

[mattyj]

Yes we had a quiet day yesterday on the fuel trucks..kinda nice really..all the AA PM flights have been given to Vincent but their call sign is an Air Nelson one..All the normal schedualled Chooks have cancelled next to the flight numbers on our sheets so I guess the strike is really on now.

Good luck chaps

[pakeha-boy]

...for those of us who have walked the picket lines,been fourloughed,fired and on strike.....my advice....Stay United,Stay Strong,and believe in yourselves....I and I,m sure everyone,wishes the chook pilot group all the best in these tough times..PB

[distracted cockroach]

Hear hear PB.
I think the "limited action" ie work to rule is a good strategy. I've been through strikes (and a lock-out) and I wish work to rule had been considered more seriously then.
Strength through unity!
DC

[Raw Data]

Hmmm this is interesting!

Just a few points...

In the sleepy Nz backwater, there is a little industrial law that stops any business from making people redundant and then employing others to fill the void. Makes sense ey! Mt Cook will NOT be closed down, Simple.

There is absolutely NO law that prevents a company from closing down and making it's workers redundant, and then another company offering them employment. That is all that MOR is talking about. It has been done before, and it will be done again.

if in this case, MOR is simply playing the devil's advocate, then there are some good points within the lines.

I absolutely agree. Some people here need to wake up and smell the sewerage. He isn't against the Mt Cook pilots and he isn't "dissenting". He is simply pointing out the realities of the situation. If you don't want to listen, fine, but his points are sound. The way in which some of you get all abusive if somebody disagrees with the "accepted wisdom" is a terrible reflection of the entrenched attitudes in NZ aviation. Believe it or not, overseas experience is a real eye-opener... most Kiwi pilots who go overseas never see NZ aviation in the same way ever again. It's a different world when you play with the big boys.

Asymetric Pete says "the dispute is about pay and training" also says "its a philosophical debate in negotiations" Philosphical what....does that mean money and giving the pilots the same as other Air New Zealand pilots?

No, it doesn't. He is talking about what MOR was talking about, namely setting up a situation where, should the pilots lose the fight, the company can set the agenda for the next ten years of negotiations. The Mt Cook pilots have put themselves in a position where they simply cannot back down without it costing them much more than what is under dispute. The company wants to weaken the unions to allow further cuts along the track.

Does this sound familiar? Ansett NZ? 89? How did they work out for the pilots?

It isn't being a "dissenter" or any other negative term when you point out the truth of the situation.

As MOR said... it is all about being smart, and picking your fights.

And before anyone has a go at me, I wholeheartedly support the Mt Cook pilots and would be happy to help them in their fight - I'd happily stand on a picket line with them, just tell me where and when.

[max rate]

[QUOTE=Raw Data]Hmmm this is interesting!
Just a few points...
There is absolutely NO law that prevents a company from closing down and making it's workers redundant, and then another company offering them employment. That is all that MOR is talking about. It has been done before, and it will be done again.

Raw Data.

a bit of light reading may be in order. May I suggest the ERA subpart 1 of part6A (effective Dec 2004). too large to reproduce here.
There is such a law.

Cheers:8

[Raw Data]

Well I did a bit of light reading...

The object of this subpart is to provide protection to specified categories of employees if their employer proposes to restructure its business so that their work is to be performed for a new employer and, to this end, to give employees a right—


(a)to elect to transfer to the new employer on the same terms and conditions of employment; and


(b)subject to their employment agreements, to bargain for redundancy entitlements from the new employer if made redundant by the new employer for reasons related to the restructuring of the previous employer's business; and


(c)if redundancy entitlements cannot be agreed with the new employer, to have the redundancy entitlements determined by the Authority.

It doesn't apply to what I wrote, which is the case where one company closes down and another takes over it's work. Subpart 6A only applies where, due to a restructure, a company elects to transfer work to another employer. It is not the same thing as one company closing down, and another taking over the work.

What the legislation is essentially talking about, is where a company chooses to sub work out to a contractor.

[max rate]

My point exactly

Air New Zealand is the employer, they own all the subsidiaries 100% what else needs to be explained?:ugh:

[MOR]

...in which case the legislation you refer to still doesn't apply. RD makes a valid point.

More to the point - and I don't know the answer to this - it really comes down to who the pilots work for. As Mt Cook is a wholly-owned subsidiary - in other words, a separate company which has the majority of its stock owned by a holding company (Air NZ in this case) - it could be argued that the pilots work for Mt Cook, not Air NZ. In addition, Mt Cook could be shut down by Air NZ if they decided it was uneconomic. If another wholly-owned subsidiary then offered the redundant crews jobs (ie Freedom Air/Zeal320), you would have a tough time applying subpart 6A as the relationship between the companies is not the same as that described by subpart 6A.

Anyway... none of that is the point, is it?

[NoseGear]

This situation seems to revolve thru the link carriers every couple of years. The usual beat of the 'pilots pay' drums, the inevitable threat of closing the company down, re-opening under a new name, or getting one of the other link carriers to cover those routes. When I worked for Air Nelson, the management let it be known that if we didn't come to the table wrt pay talks, then there was a strong likelyhood that Mt Cook (can't you taste the irony) would take over the routes operated by us using ATR's, and we would all be out of a job, or at best, we would have to re-apply to Mt Cook for our jobs back. Even a cursory glance would have shown the fallacy of those "plans", but it certainly had a lot of the senior guys running for cover, more interested in keeping what they had than losing it all......:rolleyes: I believe Eagle had the same threat hung over their head when the horsefloats were coming, being told that they would head over to Airwork of all places. Apart from a dubious legal position, imagine the public outcry if air services were withdrawn, or at best seriously disrupted, while the company cans 150 odd pilots for what?
I struggle to understand why airline, or any management for that matter, cannot seem to grasp the very real value of staff morale, loyalty and most of all goodwill. Its not such a difficult thing to foster, surely.:ugh:
Hats off to the boys at Mt Cook, good on you guys for sticking up for yourselves, and the others that will follow you into the Chook, good luck to you all.
Nosey

[Raw Data]

I'd have to agree with that, it is a remarkably small thing that is being asked for by the pilots, in the overall scheme of things. It would be interesting to see how many ANZ execs routinely travel business class, and what the travel budget is for them.

I have worked in Europe, and I can echo what MOR said about long travel times to sims. I can remember Air Wisconsin crews travelling in from the US and going straight into the sim, same for some Air Zimbabwe guys, some Thais and even a few from AirBC in Canada. It wasn't unusual to see folk sleeping on the couches in the Woodford lounge. I don't think anybody should be expected to travel long distances and then go into the sim, but it is relatively common - even in the US, if you have to travel across the country to get to the simulator.

I just hope that, in sticking up for themselves, they don't inadvertently screw themselves.

[Hanz Blix]

Air NZ will not shut down MT Cook! It makes them good money and has the best OTP even while all this is going on. Not to mention the fact that MT Cook technically owns 65% of zeal320 (I stand to be corrected if not technically correct).

While all this is going on it seems to have slipped under the radar that Air NZ is parking up 2 744, hardly a company in a position to shut down its most profitable branch!:ugh:

[flash123]

Yes, but OTP does not included cancelled flights!!, and i querry MC being the most profitable, but yeah still more than our big brother

[stoidiuoy]

As far as ownership goes....The Mount Cook group is owned by NATIONAL AIRLINES COMPANY LIMITED, registered 20Dec1984. This is then owned by TEAL and Air NZ at a 50%share each. Sound confusing.

[pakeha-boy]

reckon you would have to be an idiot to figure it out:}

[Mack Tuck]

In '99 individuals were selected by the company for redundancy. They ranged from very senior to junior. The one common thread was that those who had made a stand in one way or another featured heavily amongst those laid off, be it work-to-rule or union negotiators. 7 years later those laid off and the remainder of the humans have good jobs including 30+ Captains in the Gulf, skippers in UK and Oz/NZ and highly paid blokes in the Fragrant Harbour. Point is stick to your principles and dont bow to the pressure. Those that did 7 years ago will be regarded with the same contempt for the remainder of their worthless lives as they were then.
Good luck.

[MOR]

Good old '50s kiwi union rhetoric.

Yes, I'm sure those guys really enjoyed the stress of being laid off, the subsequent months of no pay followed by having to uproot their families and move to the other side of the world in order to keep the wolf from the door. I wonder how many are now glad that it happened - I doubt that many are.

To label people "worthless" because they made a choice of conscience is petulant and childish, and reflects the very worst of our historical union culture. It isn't an easy decision if you have a family.

[pakeha-boy]

...and that MOR,is everything in a nutshell.....been there ,done that!!!..I believe some of you young fella,s need to go back through some of the posts on this thread and re-read them.......there is a lot of good info and well directed info.....some of you were still in "dads bags" or just out of them when MOR and I were working for a living.....dont take it personal,take it with a grain of salt,but dont disregard it....I personally think that the info that MOR and Raw data have portrayed to you is nothing more than an effort to educate you,...no cheap shots,no disrespect...but a genuine effort to help you understand the reality of aviation.....and if any of you feel KIWI is any different from the rest of the world,I,m afraid you are very mistaken......this does not detract from your concerns or your pro-active stance for NZ aviation...it is the total opposite...........open your minds boys,open your minds.....PB

[Mack Tuck]

It isn't an easy decision if you have a family.

This was the excuse trotted out by the dissenters then too. Dont forget those that did the right thing and had families. Toughen up.:*

[Raw Data]

I agree with MOR. Mack Tuck is just acting like the union goon that he probably is. That sort of thuggery is something I had hoped we had seen the last of.

Toughen up...? No, I don't think so. You need to grow up.

I remenber ther Ansett dispute well. I was flying the 146 in the UK at the time, and got a phone call in the middle of the night asking if I would like to come back to NZ on what was a very lucrative contract. At the time, I didn't know about the dispute but it seemed too good to be true, so I contacted NZALPA. They told me what was going on, but their attitude was very, very threatening and combative, threatening both me and my family if I came back. It was just plain nasty, and highly unprofessional.

I didn't come back, but it wasn't for that reason - it was because I don't believe in crossing picket lines, and I wanted to support the Ansett guys. However, the behaviour of some within the union was despicable, and morally, completely corrupt - much worse than anything Ansett did.

Anybody that uses such perjorative language to describe those who made a different choice to them, is morally bankrupt. Even more so those that like to use the "S" word in the same context.

I am actually amazed that the Woomerii allow such comments.

[Mack Tuck]

Well the non-union guys are coming out in force. I guess it wasnt you guys who made their own way home from Queenstown; perhaps you repositioned the a/c. This is not a bad thing as in any dispute it is important to identify who can be relied upon and who cant.:mad:

[pakeha-boy]

MT....be careful who you accuse mate!.....was flying in Alaska,got the call,went back to kiwi....Was I aware of the situation ...yes and no....sometimes you have to jump into the fire to see how hot it is......then promptly left...after "seeing" the situation for myself... ...many kiwis overseas got "that call".....me mate...I have never and will never cross a picket line,or work action......but as Raw Data put it...NZAlpa werent the most professional....PB

[Raw Data]

in any dispute it is important to identify who can be relied upon and who cant

...just as it is important to identify who is likely to be a threat to you and your family for daring to disagree with a union line.

Such people are little more than petty thugs dressed up as pilots. Funny how people revert to the baser instincts when the pressure comes on. Interesting how people can turn on friends and colleagues over a industrial dispute. And you though the Taliban were a little over the top...

People who act like that have no place in professional aviation.

As it happens, I am a member of a pilots union, but not one that espouses the threat of intimidation in the way that the individual above does, or the way that NZALPA did (or perhaps more accurately, some of their staff).

If the only way that you can solve your problems is with violence or threats of violence, or intimidation or insults, you really don't have the moral character to be in charge of an aircraft... := := :yuk: :yuk:

[Mack Tuck]

When you have been through a dispute and had your former colleagues go behind your back and usurp any kind of collective influence you 'might have had' resulting in job loss leading to relocation of the entire family come back and talk to me; until then you have no idea what you are talking about.
An S word was mentioned a while ago so I have a question for you: Once crossed that line, how long will one carry that moniker?... For EVER:mad:

[Raw Data]

I have... not in this country, but I have. In my case, it all ended up in court.

In such a situation, you can either act with dignity, or you can become a thug. Your choice.

The only place that the "S" word exists forever, is in the bitter and twisted minds of those who choose to remember it. People who can't move on, and who are doomed to a lifetime of bitterness and regret.

Before, I just thought you were an over-agressive union goon, but now I just feel sorry for you.

Perhaps you should try educating the over-zealous youngsters on here about what actually happens when you start something you can't finish.

[Mack Tuck]

In none of my posts did I refer to violence or intimidation. That was was your little seed. However I think you are a loser; one who quite clearly sympathises with those people I never will. This is my last post on this subject.

[Raw Data]

In none of my posts did I refer to violence or intimidation.

No, you used veiled threats and insinuation. Standard union tactic.

[pakeha-boy]

RD.. whilst Ive agreed with most of of your points,I also would also make the point that when it comes to negotiation etc etc,things do get a little heated...things get said,tempers run high....be wary of the fact that not all digest these situations as you do,and to paste or paint everybody with the same brush because their rhetoric is a little "agro" is :ugh: .....I have to work with blokes that left a good airline job to go down to OZ to replace Ansett Airline crews(who have families )so that they might have a good time at their expense,knowing they would come back to the states,no penalties,but for a good time ,while a job action was going on......and to hear their excuses as to why they went is pitiful.....you talk of thuggery...it is not hard to feel that way when someone who doesn,t give a ****e about your well-being comes in from overseas and takes your job, then leaves 3 months later and doesnt give a crap.....America West Pilots,I have the list (as part of Ansett) did this and did it knowingly...I have had feelings like MT,S on sevearl occasions...:{

Over a few tinnies,I,m sure we could have a great chinwaggle,but mate,....there are some very ****ty people out there who have no scruples...and MT DOES HAVE A GOOD POINT...call them what you want,..the bottom line is they have no respect for themselves or for the industry

[Raw Data]

there are some very ****ty people out there who have no scruples...and MT DOES HAVE A GOOD POINT...call them what you want,..the bottom line is they have no respect for themselves or for the industry

I absolutely agree... but my point is that a true professional will rise above that. The moment you act as they do, or use the threat of violence/intimidation/being called a "S", you are no better than them - you have descended to their level. Sadly, such behaviour is common south of the equator, and was certainly in evidence during the Ansett strike/lockout.

Having been through a couple of industrial actions, I understand the issues, but I believe it is imperative to maintain some level of dignity, and not jump to conclusions. It is not always obvious what is going on. Not everybody crosses a picket line without being compelled to do so, as we saw during the '89 dispute.

Over a few tinnies,I,m sure we could have a great chinwaggle

I'm sure you're right!

[pakeha-boy]

RD....point taken ,and will admit to being on both sides of the fence...and have learned the error in my ways...."young fella V,S ol fella"....I,m not without skeletons....an honest admission:(

Back to Mt Chook.....in the current sagarso,where do the these blokes stand?...is thuggery prevalent or do we have a well versed negotiating group at the helm able to control the lower ranking members to say....um err...stop them from burning mgts house,s down.

To err is human,to blame somebody,everybody else shows true mgt potential.

[Airslasher]

Love the banter chaps!

Anyway, Thurs 10th Aug is the Employment Relations Authority facilitation. We shall see..............

I hear you MT but PB-:D your balanced and sensible posts enhance this thread markebly.

[slamer.]

People who act like that have no place in professional aviation/ you really don't have the moral character to be in charge of an aircraft... := := :yuk: :yuk:

You seem to suggest un-professionalism is a Union based phenomenon.

Interesting .... I have witnessed some of the most un-proffessional behaviour from non-Union types (High speed crz when not required, allowance claims when not entitled, extending duties based soley on additional payments, industrial discussions at inappropriate times, shocking conduct with the Flight attendants) ........... and so on.

And I'm not sure why!..... they certainly "talk the company talk" but they often dont "walk the talk" (not that managment would ever witness this) maybe they are attempting to re-empower themselves, what-ever .... there seems to be a culture of " getting one over" the company and their collegues buy not being seen to "make waves" or "standout".... does this make them ideal employees??

The frustrating thing is they garner grace and favor for this (in my opinion) un-proffesional conduct, and worst of all benefit from Union negotiations they havent contributed to and often tried to undermine ...........:uhoh:

Maybe we need to talk to their Mother's !!!!!!

On the other hand, Union members seem more inclined to "play by the rules"

As for the "S" word......... "Sycophant"............ :ok:

[Raw Data]

You seem to suggest un-professionalism is a Union based phenomenon.

No, not at all. I did experience unprofessionalism with some NZALPA staff over the Ansett dispute, but my own union - BALPA - is extremely professional and very measured in their approach. They believe in negotiation, rather than threats and intimidation. Sadly, I think the NZ union is about 20 years behind the times.

The REALLY unprofessional ones are the pilots that take advantage of industrial disputes to feather their own nests. They effectively undermine the unions, and can remove the element of negotiation from the dispute. Ansett NZ were very, very keen to break the strike by importing pilots from overseas - I think it is to the credit of the pilots they contacted that few, if any, took up employment.

You'll get unprofessional behaviour from both union and non-union people, when it comes to line flying. I don't believe that the conduct of pilots on the line has anything to do with union membership. People are people are people... some have a reasonable moral framework, others are entirely self-centred. In the airline I worked for in the UK, union membership was very high, and I'm sure that the reason was that the union was seen as measured and responsible. They certainly helped me out a few times, so I will always support them, and by implication their brother unions, of which NZALPA is one.

What I will never support is the idea that people who do not agree with the union line should be subjected to abuse, intimidation, violence or any combination thereof. It never changes anything, and it has the potential to wreck lives... but mostly, it is just thuggery. Not something that professional pilot should ever indulge in, regardless of what they may have been through.

[slamer.]

Was it the Ansett rep's applying the Borax or others ??

I think you may find things have changed a little at NZALPA. Some may say they are a bit soft now !!!... but I agree negotiation is preferable to war.

At the end of the day, in NZ one has the right to withdraw (or not) ones labour if required (never an enjoyable experience, which may explain the high emotions/threats at such times)
However if you belong to a union, ultimately you must be prepared to stand up for youself on the picket line or face the concessionary slide (see the current Oz situation) that will inevitably come.
The Company has the gold, you have the labour, both have what the other wants.... a balance will be found or all concerned will lose. Airline managment understand this better than anyone

I tend to think a "work to rule" is a waste of time as it can become messy.... induviduals can be targeted, and I'm not sure its a legal form of industrial action.

[distracted cockroach]

Guys,
I was one of the locked out Ansett NZ pilots, and it is an admirable thing that you did by declining a lucrative contract offered by an increasingly desperate company. From my colleagues and I....thank-you. I know many who did likewise, and some of their situations were such that the offered job would have been extremely tempting.
To the "dirty dozen" who did accept jobs during that period, the actions of those who chose not to, makes your actions even more despicable. I guess it emphasises the selfishness of those who epitimise the "s" word, in one of the only recent disputes where the term can be accurately used.
Whilst I am the first to admit fault on behalf of both the pilots and the company, outsiders should have stayed outside!
I am extremely disappointed that members or staff of "my" union acted in an unprofessional manner towards those who had the courtesy to enquire as to the situation when offered contracts. Hopefully we have progressed beyond such actions and as one of the pilots represented at the time, I apologise if my representatives caused offence.
I make no apology, however, for any actions towards the "dirty dozen". Their actions are indefenceable and I would like to think they are made to regret it for the rest of their carreers. Yes, I guess that sounds bitter and twisted, but I don't let it affect my life. Am I "over it".?...yeah, I've moved on and am happy with my position, and more importantly, I have no regrets....but I will NEVER have a beer and talk about the old times with one of those S...s:=

[eureka]

How well is the pilots union acting for the Mount Cook pilots during this present industrial action? Presume they are acting for most of the pilots. Didn't know there was so much history and so many bitter and twisted people out there. Gosh the managers in airlines must be a real bunch of wallies.. They must be from another planet..

[Raw Data]

slamer.

Was it the Ansett rep's applying the Borax or others ??

I'm not really sure... it was just the guy I got put through to when I called NZALPA. Young and male.

Just out of interest, what happened to the website that had a list of those who crossed the line? It seems to have disappeared... anybody know?

[grumpy_bugger]

Bonner Bylsma
Wally Pendray\Barry Miles
Gordon Flynn
Brian Whelan
Ray Pilbrow
Steve Ackalnd
steve ewan
dave palmer\
paul wright\gavin lee
these used to be oneof us. Many ore to be added, Hard as these were scabs but the rest were super scabs that came for our jobs.

[Raw Data]

Isn't Bonner Bylsma head pirate at Air National? And didn't Steve Ackland end up at JetConnect?

Maybe crime DOES pay...!!! ;)

[stoidiuoy]

Just keep pushing to see how far they will go.
That will be a really good idea.
Fell like you can't see the wood through the trees?

The S word may end up being 'suprise'

[haughtney1]

While we are naming undesirables..what ever happened to that Steve Mosen character at cityjet........Id certainly love to have words:yuk:

[deadhead]

Now that the thread has well and truly drifted off, and names have been mentioned - Barry Miles' only "crime" was that he ended up being wrong. At least he stood up in a meeting and basically told everyone where he believed we were wrong and why he was walking away. In other words, he had the guts to reveal his convictions.:sad:

On the other hand that :mad: snake Bonne Bylsma was in the pocket of a corrupt and bankrupt (morally and otherwise) management, organising training for the super-scabs at the same time he was applauding the union negotiators for a job well done! Good work Bonne, you really sold everyone, even the other scabs, a dummy there. :yuk: If he has ended up at Air National then somehow, that seems fitting, though I can't quite think why.

No prizes for working out what "Acts bent as" is an anagram of.:ok:

However, I still believe that the main reason the wheels fell off the union wagon was that the quite uncontrollable "Wild" Wes was at the controls. Somebody should have tied him down, because "thinking smarter" was definitely not his modus operandi. :=

But the last laugh must surely rest with former CEO Kevin Dodderell who, fresh from his fraud conviction, was last heard from selling fertiliser.:O

Ya gotta love that.

[burty]

Mr Bylsma doesn't work at Air Nat anymore. Didn't quite fit in with the company culture. F#@king idjit. Should feel quite at home at emrats though.

Now where's my asprin gone?!!??

[distracted cockroach]

No names now:= but remember these?
Where are they now?

Plug.....Air NZ 767 Sim instructor
Kune-Kune.....much disliked Air NZ A320 ground course instructor
Scablan.....saw him the other day in AKL. PacBlue F/O
Holmes....Brunei
Beale.....ex JC (failed command upgrade several times) now Air Japan?
Irvine
Mason
Mackellar
Armour
Jordan
Lusby
:* Ex Aussie Air Force guy who flew the Dash8


Can't remember any other names. Many of these were Aussies:eek:
Dearsay fewer Kiwis crossed the pond in 89 than Aussies who came the other way in 99. Tut tut.

Someone told me BB was involved in some sort of franchise out east (AKL) Can't remember exactly what it was - banner printing or something seems to ring a bell.
Believe SE is now driving a concrete truck. Oh how the mighty have fallen (but it probably pays better than aviation!)

My feelings towards most of those inside the company who crossed the line have softened over the years, but the I think I made my feelings about the Dirty Dozen outsiders clear in a previous post!

Cheers
DC

[distracted cockroach]

Jeeze there'll be a few guys who will be queuing up to give BB a fitting welcome in DBX if he's gone to Emirates!!
Don't they do psyche testing:confused:
He's a certified, card carrying nutjob:eek:

[stoidiuoy]

Queuing up....handbags at 10 paces is it.
DC the militant days of the 50's are long gone you moron. Evolution I think it's called.
Some of you need to get up with the play before you get burned.
WAKE UP

[distracted cockroach]

Jeeze, take a chill pill man. What industrial conflict did you cross the line in?
You're obviously a bit sensitive on such matters.
DC the moron (actually, that's a bit demeaning to morons:ok: )