Ex SAA over 60's should they stay or should they go?

[fluffyfan]

Having spoken to a number of my mates in recent times, I believe that there are a number of old boys out there who have reached the mandatory retirement age of 60 at SAA (ok its now 63...or is it....maybe not:rolleyes: ) and these retired captains are now working for Nationwide and a few other domestic operators.

I have a few issues with this, firstly, these are guys who were at the top of there game, earning way more than any other pilots in South Africa, they recieved every advantage that a person could recieve in SA at that time, these are guys who were earning more than the State president when they retired, and now they are blocking the promotion channels for the young guys at Nationwide, young guys who now have the added disadvantage of competing in a BEE enviroment.

Now I hear.........not only are these old boys slowly moving into Nationwide they seem to be taking over, helping there fellow retired buddies into the airline as direct entry Captains, there seems to be a growing resentment of these old boys who seem to have started an SAA old boys club at Nationwide, they are blocking progress through the airline, trying to install there methods of doing things (ie ........Call me Captain please) and generally making life a misery for the poor young guys at Nationwide.

I can understand they may be imparting some of there vast experience on the guys at Nationwide, and maybe the young guys should be grateful for this, but why do most Nationwide guys I speak to resent these old boys.

I also understand that the money was not always good at SAA and these old boys may need to subsidise there pension funds to a degree, but just who is subsidising who here, the poorest pilots of the lot (in SA) subsidising the very rich, if its a case of they are flying for fun and cant sit at home because now you are just an average Joe and nobody salutes you or calles you captain anymore than I would say maybe they should learn to fish or golf or what ever else takes your fancy and gracefully move off into the sunset.

[SAT_BOSS]

Hey its sad GO make space for the feeders at the bottom. Take your retirement and put something back in the system by doing odd instruction now and again.

Ha? Waiting for the whiplash

[bianchi]

Hey Fluffyman,

You hit the nail right on the head with what you said.
I don't think its about money! I think it's about ----they( over 60's) don't know what to do with themselfs now that they are retired.( never got themself a hobbie,made friends other than those that can only talk"shop" etc) and sadly the younger guys are picking up the tab!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

That is all very well but to discrimate against someone because of their age, whether that discrimination be self imposed or not is ageist and perhaps sexist as well as being possibly racist.
The young chaps in Nationwide and other carriers are actually the priviliged pilots and are doing very well indeed to be where they are today with such limited experience to offer their industry.
In what othe field of employment endeavour must one move over at the comparatively young age of sixty to make way for those who are untried, inexperienced and, in some plentiful number of cases, far too self inflated either for their own good or for the inherent ethos of the industry which they profess to serve?
I would suggest that the young Turks of aviation have a first class opportunity here to learn and benefit from the wisdom of their elders etc. It would behove them well to take advantage of this opportunity in their educational learning curve and reflect rather more on that which they would wish to happen to themselves as and when they may achieve an amplitude of aviation related knowledge and experience.
It strikes me too that Nationwide could well use a little heavyweight flight management at the helm if only to ensure that the company continues to go from strength to strength and thus continue to provide employment to those who otherwise might still be stuck in Maun, for example, flying those delightful little 206s!:ugh:
As for this tendentious subject called BEE, such intrepid greyhaired grandfathers at the forefront of a company places a rather satisfactory barrier in its path.
This of course prevails until such time as some bright spark in the firmament of African aviation forms a company called, perhaps, 'Flybee', for the express purpose of advancing those who might be otherwise unadvanceable!:D

[Romeo E.T.]

This is a difficult topic, I fully agree with "fluffyfan"...but i have also heard (thru rumours) that the SAA pensions is so PATHETIC that a senior SAA skipper going on retirement had better have provided privately for his pension as the "transnet" pension puts him on a permanent salary scale worse than a Nationwide F/O, now how is he/she supposed to adjust from the life of luxury one month to (relative to his standard) poverty the next month???

If its a case of boredom, then go find a hobby and stop hogging the promotion oppurtunities.
If its a deap LOVE for flying machines, then go into instruction and put back what you've taken out over the last 30 years+.
If its money and lifestyle and pension padding....well then....???

[Goldfish Jack]

Hey fluffyfan you are not far off the nail

Believe they have just about taken over the training section and are now doing it their way!!!!

IT is high time they moved on and let the youngsters progress up the ladder - we all know how they carried on when they were junior FOs.............

As to the pension - if you can command a jet and get to 60 and not be in command of your pension boy you got a problem - dont make other peoples lives a misery because you still have to work - I cant wait for the day I have to retire!!

As to their R/T procedures you should have heard the 2 of them in the Cape Town TMA this morning - it was a joke - they did not use proper call signs, both replied to ATC often to the same instruction!!!!! oh well what has changed - not much their ego aint that is for sure - just the a/c got blue-er and smaller and i believe they are now both training captains!!!

[Shrike200]

I'd like to chip in some points here, if I may.

I doubt the scareways guys are resented personally - it's more a resentment of what their presence means, although there is one rumour based point that could be a thorny issue, as I mention later.

Perhaps some history: We all know that Nwide has always payed the lowest of salaries in the local airline market. And, many guys had to pay for their rating, often at a bit of a rip off. However, this was made up for to a small degree by having a relatively fast progression to Captain, where a living could be made. Hours were accumulated fast, and it provided a useful leg up in the game.

However, the times, they are a-changin': Fast forward to the present -

The current crop of Nwide FO's (who will be directly affected by the influx of the skygods) are no longer the 800-hour-pay-as-you-go-candidates. These guys/girls now have (had, actually, they've all been online a while now) between 1500-3500 hours experience on entering Nwide, with instructional + contract or other airline, multi crew/turbine/mediums and in quite a few cases, jet experience, sometimes all of the above. These guys and girls are of the level of what Comair has traditionally accepted for FO applicants (in my opinion) and but for chance and the constricted number of places available, would be there instead (based on conditions and salary). However, 'You take what you can get' in this game. They still, however, live on the old salaries, but in many cases are older. (An element of assumption there, I'll admit, but I believe it's valid given the higher levels of experience than in the past.)

So, amonst CavortingCheetah's other erroneous comments, this one :"The young chaps in Nationwide and other carriers are actually the priviliged pilots and are doing very well indeed to be where they are today with such limited experience to offer their industry." is now also out of date to a certain degree, if he referred to the traditional picture of Nwide low time pay-as-you-go FO's. And young guys/girls have to start somewhere, surely? We weren't all born flying 737's!

While I'm quoting CC, what on earth is this??
"That is all very well but to discrimate against someone because of their age, whether that discrimination be self imposed or not is ageist and perhaps sexist as well as being possibly racist."
Racist?!? Huh?! Oh well, whatever...and this? "....far too self inflated either for their own good or for the inherent ethos of the industry which they profess to serve?" You're talking about the Nwide FO's there - do you have some specific beef with any of them or something? The one's I know are all real nice guys, down to earth, friendly, and proffessional...you're entitled to your opinion, but it should be clear I think you're wrong. In fact, I think you went a bit overboard on the whole.

Onwards ho: The real nail in the coffin however, is the current rumour amongst Nwide crew of new requirements for command: 4 years with the company and/or 2500 hours on type. THIS really spells doom for any hope of a life with them. 4 years on an Nwide FO salary? Who would want that, if it can be avoided? By, for example, a trip to the sandpit, amongst other places. There is possibly an extra element of resentment being generated here all by itself since it's apparently not clear whether this is some sort of requirement from some governing body, OR whether it's the skygods who can now dictate policy trying to put this in place, and therefore make it company policy to deny the quicker path to command that has historically been in place in Nwide for some time. Thus ensuring a place for their buddies from scareways to come and play, for now and the future. And believe me, while people may hear rumours of SAA pensions for these guys being low, Nwide FO's all reckon it's stratospheric. Thats apart from the fact that even if it is low now (again, I'd like to see proof of that to believe it), they've been earning the best salaries in the local industry to pad their nest egg anyway.

Make no mistake - despite the quicker path to command in Nwide, it wasn't necessarily stunningly easy. Nwide have been operating 737's for some time, and the older chaps there, in particular one sharp fanged old dog in the older Nwide training structure, weren't short of experience on type and route, and gave plenty of hard times apparently. Nonetheless, the SAA guys can certainly share a wealth of experience, that is without doubt - it can only do good.

So, denying a path to command, by both presence and now possibly policy? It might generate some resentment of the situation, sure. But I believe Nwide FO's are too professional to allow that sort of thing to show in their work, or even have that attitude in the first place. Indeed (CavortingCheetah!), you'll be happy to know that all the guys I spoke to shared the belief that it's a great opportunity to learn a lot.

Too long, as usual. Sorry.

[Warlock2000]

Believe they have just about taken over the training section and are now doing it their way!!!! Probably not a BAD thing hey? These "old farts" have been around the planet a few times and probably have a bigger take on aviation than JNB-CPT-JNB....

Having said that, at 55 and the only seat I want in a plane is a 1st class seat! :zzz:

[fluffyfan]

With all respect to our "aged" colleges, if your pension is not sufficient and you need to do this sort of work to survive then sorry and I can understand why you are doing this, we all need to look after ourselves before we consider the others in the industry. However if this is the case why make waves, why is it nescessary to up the requirement to command, considering that it is generally quite low in europe compared to SA, why insist on being called Captain (you may think its a mark of respect but respect is earned not gained by a title), this whole call me Captain is very last decade, and my answer to anyone who says that to me is "Call me First Officer" .........which is not good CRM I know.

My Statement to the old boys would be if you need to do this I can inderstand, I dont like it but I understand, but please fit into the existing Nationwide/1time/Safair structure and do not try to change it to suit yourself or treat your new position as a personal buddy employmenty agency, as the saying goes "fit in or :mad: off"

[Frogman1484]

The fact that at 62 you can fly for SAA and at 63 you are too old is the problem. Surley If you want to keep on working, you should be free to do so. How you keep on working becomes the problem, this "Call me Captain crap...is wrong" if you cannot gain respect by your actions you should not be the captain, no matter how old. :}

[FlingWingKing]

The question to ask here is rather "Why is Nationwide employing these older guys?"

The answer is quite simple: Because they are getting a whole lot more for their dollar...

The Ex SAA guys are NOT doing the employment here...Nationwide is on recommendation (probably) from the older boys. Right or wrong (depending on who's side of the argument you are) Nwide will continue employing the older more experienced ex SAA Captains until such time it doesn't suit them anymore.

We do not have the big picture here....maybe VB has a plan,who knows.

[reptile]

I can understand they may be imparting some of there vast experience on the guys at Nationwide.......

Sounds like a great idea :ok:

[SIC]

Well I 'll tell you one thing - at the rate we get abused these days - pay wise I mean - and not only at NTW but worldwide - I am gratefull to these old dodgers for showing the way to working past 60.

I personally figure I would have to keep going to 75 before I could retire....:ugh:

[alghaita ganga]

Surely age is not the issue. Peoples are living longer, staying more healthy and working longer. ICAO is about to raise retraite to 65. It means that pilot can be more like normal person and have a normal working life. The main issue should be ability to pass medical and OPC, non? When I was flying there were good and bad pilots, but age was not a factor. Some want to finish early and some not. This the same with all jobs, non?

[MercenaryAli]

As a person who is also a pilot - I am sick to death of those who spend so much time slagging off those over the age of 60 who don't wish to be thrown onto the scrap heap. Since when did age matter so much to so many? When EVERY job, profession and calling are forced to retire at the same arbitary age then and only then will it be OK and only providing this sorry excuse for a socialist government pay a decent pension for all those NIC made by those workers. Any pension earned by retired persons has been paid for out of earned income! No freebies here and there are often 'circumstances' like ex wive's etc etc draining resources - just leave the old folks alone and if they can pass a Class 1 Aircrew medical who are you to make judgement on who should be hired and who shouldn't. Maybe some you young F/O's could learn a thing or two about real flying from these giants of aviation - they learnt to FLY not push buttons !! :*

[Iconoclast]

Mercenary Ali - good post.

As a person who is also a pilot - I am sick to death of those who spend so much time slagging off those over the age of 60 who don't wish to be thrown onto the scrap heap. Since when did age matter so much to so many? .... just leave the old folks alone and if they can pass a Class 1 Aircrew medical who are you to make judgement on who should be hired and who shouldn't. Maybe some you young F/O's could learn a thing or two about real flying from these giants of aviation - they learnt to FLY not push buttons !! :*

Mercenary Ali, I couldn't agree more. Fluffy is being particularly polite in these columns, but earlier on, to another contributor, he suggested that it was the problem caused by 'old farts' like him who were the problem...it would seem that there are many here who fail to realise that a great number of these 'old farts' have mauch more experience and can still contribute to the greater benefit of aviation whilst they still possess all of their faculties and a class 1 medical. I think I would prefer my family to fly with some 'old fart' who knew the business than some young upstart who thought he knew it all

Iconoclast

[nugpot]

...whilst they still possess all of their faculties and a class 1 medical.

The two unfortunately don't always go together. You don't get tested for memory, nightvision or reaction time during your flying medical.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
It seems to me as though those Buckaroos who think older pilots should depart the work force in order to make way for them are woefully self delusory. Hubris is an ill placed emotion. It's the attitude of so many of them that bodes so dangerously for aviation in he future. Not to worry though; matters will self adjuducate in the fullness of time. Whether there will be a flying public left in twenty years is altogether another story and in any event, with the advancement of robotics, pilots will soon become ever and ever more redundant, which will simplify matters anyway.
And indeed, for that matter, who on earth needs to bother with such trivialities as memory, night vision and reaction times when we have such personable goodies as FMSs, HUDs and TCASs on board?
On a lighter note; I notice that the UK CAA has withdrawn its medical requirement for an initial EEG. I wonder if that decision permits more youngsters to slip through the filtering net into the pilot pool than were heretofore the case? Perhaps this allows for a more homogenous pilot population by the admission of those with a greater degree of mental instability than before? At least, on the occasion of my EEG, the determination of mental stability was, in broad terms, the justification given for the test. Are we thus opening the doors of aviation for a generation, no more I think before total computerization sinks in, of deranged push button geeks?;)

[Shrike200]

I thought this was not so much over the age issue, but about them job hopping (caused by the age issue at their original company, sure) and clogging up another companies system, fouling it up for the guys who are working their way through there.

The age issue is a bit trickier (and currently a bit arbitrary, I can see that) - SIC, I'm thinking I'll need to work to at least 85, 75's far too conservative an estimate! When I lose my medical I'll need to find some simulator instruction job!

[MercenaryAli]

No ! Those are tested during LPC/OPC/IRR and line checks! You understand that surely? :ugh:

[B200Drvr]

Ali,
Not that straight forward unfortunately, A retired Trg Captain told me that Sim checks etc are a walk in the park for the older guys as they know all the routes, procedures etc that are done on the checks as many of them have done them every 6 months for the last 20 years, and many of them are being tested by guys who they have flown with for the last 30 odd years.
That being said, I would still rather have a real pilot in the cockpit rather than a wet behind the ears fast tracker. Due to South Africa's contract industry however most of the guys moving up have a vast amount of experience in real flying. I think these older guys should fit in to the training role to impart their knowledge, even if it means as a third crew member.

[nugpot]

No ! Those are tested during LPC/OPC/IRR and line checks! You understand that surely?

I have never done any of those in a winter storm, at night, at the end of a 4 sector 11 hour pairing, when the deficiencies of any pilot is glaringly obvious.

[brabazon1]

nwide will take the best they can get at the cheapest price,its called capitalism.by employing ex saa they are getting very good value.for those inexperienced pilots who get to fly with these guys you will learn a great deal,i certainly did.

[saywhat]

nwide will take the best they can get at the cheapest price,its called capitalism.

Call it what you want, these are the boys and girls that cried that they were not paid enough at SAA.

[sticktime]

I have no doubt of these guy's and the wealth of information they can offer, I do wonder when I hear storys of a F/O in the sim with two of these guy's, one Capt the other a T/C, and the poor F/O trying to pick up the pieces because of absolutley no knowlege of ths N/W SOP's and 'flows' that are non-existant.
:hmm:

[brabazon1]

if the said fo is so fantastic he should get into saa soon and earn real money. lets face it its still the best airline job in sa.

[sticktime]

Did I mention the fo is a W/M !! :ugh:

[brabazon1]

that does make it more difficult. with the way things are going in china, india and the middle east his skills will be appreciated soon i am sure.

[nutcracker 34]

The two unfortunately don't always go together. You don't get tested for memory, nightvision or reaction time during your flying medical.

Base checks, line checks and instrument rating renewals should take care of those, don't you think?

tpm

[nutcracker 34]

I have no doubt of these guy's and the wealth of information they can offer, I do wonder when I hear storys of a F/O in the sim with two of these guy's, one Capt the other a T/C, and the poor F/O trying to pick up the pieces because of absolutley no knowlege of ths N/W SOP's and 'flows' that are non-existant.
:hmm:

Probably they are just that, stories!

tpm

[weatherjunkie]

that does make it more difficult. with the way things are going in china, india and the middle east his skills will be appreciated soon i am sure.

How are things going in India then, brabazon1?

[sticktime]

Probably they are just that, stories!

tpm

:= Alot of them ! First hand :E