New Policies at EK (The Green Dot Thread) [Archive]

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 04:59

Although much has been said about the falling standards of new recruits at EK I think it fair to acknowledge that in the current environment of rapid expansion this was inevitable and is a function of pilots available and the experience levels of the same.
As a result of this and personal observations over the past few years I have come up with a set of policies (that might be added to) that can be printed off and once read, be signed before the commencement of a flight duty.
1. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
2. When changing radio frequencies listen before transmitting to ensure you aren’t transmitting over someone else
3. When using the radio English is the language we use
4. Aircraft radios are not the appropriate medium to chat with your mates; I recommend the pub for this, or else the telephone
5. We do not deviate around ground returns from the weather radar; use the tilt function and look out the window
6. We do not both have the radar on maximum range at night whilst engrossed in the Sudoku; you will not see the top of the next CB
7. Don’t concentrate solely on the radar picture. Look out the window; its amazing what you will see
8. Don’t ask for block clearances in RVSM airspace. If you cant climb 2000’ stay where you are until you can
9. Check your FMS descent profile against altitude and distance to run. Inserting altitude and speed constraints into the flight plan changes the computed profile and its not always accurate
10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking; its probably not necessary. If you end up in level flight with flap out you have probably cocked it up
11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed
12. If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed
13. Do not accept speed constraints that are unreasonable or inconsistent with the characteristics of your aircraft or company SOPs
14. When acting as PNF and a configuration change command is given; check the speed and do it. There is no rule against selecting gear and flaps at the same time
15. If landing on a 4000m runway the touchdown zone is the same as a 2200m runway. Performing a “greaser” 1000m from the threshold might impress the punters but it doesn’t impress me
16. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
17. It is your job to give the Cabin Crew their hours not mine
18. In the CBC after a flight the prime objective is to get out of there as quickly as possible. If you want to chat with your mates get a taxi because I’m gone.
I have read and understood the above requirements and agree to abide by them.
First Officer _________________________ Date:
Signed: _____________________________

Saltaire

14th Jun 2006, 05:53

Grumpy bugger indeed !

Time to retire perhaps and get that heart rate down. Maybe a CRM refresher or just turn up the aircon and cool down !:eek:

I can't say that I disagree with most of your "suggestions", but a few are concerning...

10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking

Ask to use the speedbrakes?? Give your head a shake.

11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed

Generally, not such a great idea, given an engine failure at an unfortunate time and simply not very good airmanship.

I think this post just summarizes the state of happiness at the entire airline. I just hope your not a DEC...

The further 380 delay should make the Airbus fleet even more enjoyable...:ugh:

411A

14th Jun 2006, 06:22

Well, I don't think that any First Officer should have to ASK if he can use the speed brake...after all, it IS there to be used, so why the heck not let him fly the aeroplane, and leave the poor guy alone.
\
Longer track miles ISO selecting flaps?
More total BS.

Me thinks el Capitan Windbag needs to be taken down a peg or three.:}

EK Pilot

14th Jun 2006, 06:22

Hey Grumpy! Good observations and something that I have considered printing out and using already! :D

Saltaire, he's made some good points and you also state that this summarises the general mood, that is also 100% correct and just in case you're wondering, I'm not a DEC :}

And 411A, taken down a peg or three? I assume by the comments you make that you are not here in Dubai or have ever worked for EK. In that case you need to be taken into the desert and given a taste of the local treatment usually associated with persona non grata. Your bum will hurt for a bit but the bullet soon eases the pain.

porkandbrew

14th Jun 2006, 06:51

Very interesting indeed. You guys are totally wrong about flying below green dot though. It is perfectly OK to do that, and if you think about it we fly next to VLS on each approach.
Pork:cool:

Warlock2000

14th Jun 2006, 06:55

Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights.Nor the main gear because then you'll be just a tad too far from the centre line.
Don’t ask for block clearances in RVSM airspace. If you cant climb 2000’ stay where you are until you can. And why would that be? Over the middle of the ocean with no-one around, no problem.
Don’t concentrate solely on the radar picture. Look out the window; its amazing what you will see. Yes!
Don’t touch the speed brake without asking; its probably not necessary. If you end up in level flight with flap out you have probably cocked it up. 1st part of this statement is utter crap, 2nd is true.
If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed Extra track miles? Bullsh!t, the quicker she's on the ground, the quicker we go home (or to the pub).
There is no rule against selecting gear and flaps at the same time.
Quite right!

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 07:13

10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking;

And do YOU ask HIM?? If you run a cockpit where the PF has to ask PERMISSION to use a flight control, It's YOUR standards we need to talk about!

11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed

By this, do you mean you EXPECT your FO to do so? Perrmissable or not, it's not a great idea.

12. If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed

Yeah....London control (Or CDG or LAX) are just going to LOVE you for doing that!!

18. In the CBC after a flight the prime objective is to get out of there as quickly as possible. If you want to chat with your mates get a taxi because I’m gone.

Now of course if you run into one of YOUR mates...(assuming you have any!!)

You have a few novel ideas about flight ops...Fine.
The fact that you are trying to impose them as law on inexperienced FOs who will trot them out on MY flight when I least expect it is detrimental. I hoped the days when FOs needed "Hate sheets" so they could give each Captain the variations HE wanted where gone...

Apparently not:ugh:

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 07:19

You guys are totally wrong about flying below green dot though

Well obviously I've missed a briefing!! What IS the minimum permissable clean speed if not VCL??

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 07:38

If someone can show me an SOP that says flying below Green Dot is NOT permissible I would like to see it. VLS is the lowest selectable speed and is the minimum clean speed. Although I would not consider selecting and flying at VLS I think a sensible margin below Green Dot is perfectly acceptable if one can remain "clean". 'Normally' on arrival I see about 30kts between VLS and Green Dot. If Green Dot was 215 and ATC requirement is to fly 210 I consider selecting flap to be complete bollocks.
Regarding the speed brake; slightly tongue in cheek of course (as the entire thread is) however how often have we seen speed brakes used followed by a level segment either clean or semi-configured. The point here is a lack of appreciation of profiles.

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 08:57

Grumpy,

We're on different aircraft, but am I right in saying that below VCL you are limited to 15Deg angle of bank? As all turns have to be rate 1, havent you put yourself in the position where you can't comply with that requirement?

As to the speed brake (and indeed your whole post), I think the implication being put to you is "There is more than one way to skin a cat", being "grumpy" because someone doesn't always do it your way is counter-productive. Why not use it as an opertunity to share your obvious extensive knowledge? Many people DON'T have an instinctive appreciation of profile and many environments (Europe particularly) don't give much chance to learn it.

BYMONEK

14th Jun 2006, 08:58

Warlock2000

Spot on. Agree with everything on that post.

Grumpy

Okay, if some of what you say ref. speed brakes for example,is tongue in cheek then fine. I whole heartedly agree with you on the subject of CDA's. There are many guys here, in BOTH seats, who do not know what one is, let alone know how to fly one! In the time i've been here, not once has a Continuous Descent Approach been even mentioned or demonstrated during training and by far the worst offender was a senior TRE into LHR. COMPLETELY CLUELESS!

Although the latest newsletter mentioned CDA's, the solution apparently is to look up some reference hidden in the bowels of a long winded publication. Come on EK training dept, take ownership of the problem and TEACH the guys during training.Give the guys a simple laminated A5 card that has the information to hand, ideal for those unable to fly ( through the automatics of course) and do their 3 x tables at the same time.

BYMONEK

Nimmer

14th Jun 2006, 10:42

Intersting mention of CDA's. Ex London airport so CDA's required(going back soon, hurrah), always try and do them here so give track mileage on initial descent, plus updates and number in traffic etc.
Straight in approach to 12L, gave desecnt from 12,000 to 5000 40 miles to go, aircraft was level 25 miles from touch down demeanding further descent. Dropped him to 2A, and pilot flew last 15 miles before intecept straight and level.

Whats the Emirates policy?

6853

14th Jun 2006, 10:50

Well done GB.

Another one that gets me and many others are the ones that put their heavy feet on the rudder pedals and are sublimely unaware that you can feel it. Yes, by all means have your feet on the pedals chaps but please try and keep them there lightly like all the other considerate chaps when doing a PNF sector. Had one of them a few days ago who had his feet so securely secured to the pedals that I thought I had a rudder problem at the start of the takeoff run! Yes, and he was also one of those who spent the preflight running down the "useless Capt's" he had been flying with recently and then proceeded to give a sad display of flying skills and airmanship on his sector, without even realising his weaknesses, frightening but we seem to be getting more and more of them or am I just becoming a grumpy old bugger?

porkandbrew

14th Jun 2006, 11:29

Hi!

Flying below green dot does not reduce the bank angle on the A330/A340. This would only happen in case of an engine failure. FACT.:D
It is not bad airmanship to fly below green dot. On the contrary, it is a very good tool if you like to fly CDA's.
Cheers,
Pork.

Backwater

14th Jun 2006, 12:48

Whle it may be true that you can fly below green dot clean, the question remains why would you want to? Flap 1 for a few track miles will not affect your fuel burn to any measurable degree, but it will preserve your manoeuvring buffer.
Consider the following: 15 kts below green dot, levelling from a descent, turning with 30 deg AoB, turbulence (either wake, thermal or shear). Your protection speeds will increase substantially coupled with a sharp decrease in airspeed. Result: Alpha floor!
Why anyone would want to reduce their manoeuvre margin is beyond me.

brokenenglish

14th Jun 2006, 13:27

Guess that you guys had better stop doing take offs in your A330s because a flap 1 take off @ 220t will have you climbing from 0 feet to 1000ft at a speed of around 35kts below S speed. Quite close to the ground and on a bad day with an engine out.

That seems a lot more worrying than g_bs 5kts below clean.

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 14:14

So...We're talking Airbus here. No wonder it doesn't make sense!!

Thridle Op Des

14th Jun 2006, 14:53

I'd concur if there was both Capt and First Officer at the bottom of the contract, while most of the LHS are great - there are several I can can think of who need guidance from the list. It is extraordinary the number of LHS who still cannot do a standard first call with departures or arrivals or arrive in NBO with burning brakes on a 343, just to mention a few. As for "permission" to use the boards.........

TOD

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 14:54

I never planned on a technical discussion here but:
Max Landing weight of 180T (for ease of figures) in A330 VS1G 145kts.
VLS = 1.23VS1G = 178 kts
Green dot = 1.45VS1G = 210 kts (there is the 30 kts mentioned earlier)
Alpha floor occurs somewhere below VLS.
30 degree turn VS is 1.1 VS level flight (at low speeds the autopilot is usually a bit under 30) so speeds become 160, 195 and 230 respectively.
Therefore at 15kts below Green dot and in a 30 degree turn you are covered wrt VLS not to mention Valpha prot.
Takeoff and final approach speeds are closer to protection speeds and although angles of bank are normally less it doesnt help in case of turbulence.
One logical extension of the argument could be the fuel load...if you dont like the policy of minimum fuel how much extra will you take? Is there a set figure or do you decide on the day? I take extra on some flights and on some others depart with CFP fuel. I know I can fly below Green dot but I dont fly at VLS.

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 14:56

TOD you may know how to plan a descent and manage a profile but believe me; most make a right hash of it and end up dragging it in. That is my point.

Thridle Op Des

14th Jun 2006, 15:08

Hi GB, I do sympathise with your assertions, I was fortunate to cut my jet teeth in the London TMA so CDA's were hammered into my particularly dense skull, I think someone made a very valid point that CDA's are "not EK" until recently. I remember a particularly pointless article in the Outer Marker (remember that?) on CDA's which spent three pages reproducing the UK AIP and then finished with...."this is not current EK policy" or some such. I just disagree with the RHS focus.

Regards

TOD

helen-damnation

14th Jun 2006, 15:21

At 6am on my way back from some far flung place I am more than happy to comply with SOP and get the speed back.
If CDAs are required then, of course, try and comply. Most of these destinations are day flights or long enough to get some sleep on the a/c.
If I have to fly level and burn a ''little'' extra fuel then so be it.
It's a damn site cheaper than a go-around and my brain may be able to stay in the vicinity of the aircraft, not 5 miles behind.
Anyone who wants to show me how clever he is by not using the speedbrake on the A330 at 6am will not impress me:= :=
Happy landings :ok:

readytocopy

14th Jun 2006, 16:30

How about you let the guy in the right seat fly the way he feels comfortable....or just do it yourself. I beleive he already has an ATPL and obviously has the required amount of hours to be hired at EK....oh, and is checked every 6 months and a line check.

Or perhaps they should pair you with another Captain so you can go about and stroke each others egos....cause you guys never make mistakes.

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 17:17

An ATPL clearly does not qualify one to be a competent aviator. It is not a Captain's job to "let the guy in the right seat fly the way he feels comfortable".

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 17:32

grumpy,

Nor is it your job to MAKE the guy in the RHS fly the way YOU think he should!

grumpy_bugger

14th Jun 2006, 17:37

Whatever you reckon. Thanks for your input.

brokenenglish

14th Jun 2006, 17:51

Wiz

You bring nothing to this thread.

Please take your dubious opinions back to D & G, R & N and Easyland.

Thanks.

picu

14th Jun 2006, 18:20

Don’t touch the speed brake without asking;

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says that should not be occupying an EK left seat.

readytocopy

14th Jun 2006, 18:24

Nor does being in the left seat make you competent. Just cause you managed to get through the hurdle of being a captain at EK does not make you god's gift to aviation. There is someone beside you who is second in command and is a "captain in training" for one day he will be in your seat. CRM my friend and respect is what this airline lacks....it is all BS. We talk about the big picture and using all your resources and the best resource is sitting next to you and in the cabin as well...that is what makes a good captain...but a majority of you think it is a very lonely seat there on the left side. Hypocrisy at its best. But you are right in that sense cause anything we do the company fires you. So maybe it is the company culture that stinks and FO's will always be treated like ****. Its all a learning curve in aviation and everyday we are learning....maybe crew sched should roster you on your own sonny.

alwayzinit

14th Jun 2006, 21:17

Having been in the left seat for nearly 20 yrs military and civil I have come to a number of conclusions:

1 Nobody tries to fly a bad approach/descent./departure /etc

2 Bollocking someone for trying their best achieves nothing apart from having a one way conversation.

3 Everyone learns from their mistakes, ergo, if it is not going to endanger the aircraft or go outside your own abilities let the mistake happen and talk it through on the ground. ( thats why trainers get paid more coz they get sh#t scared most days!)

4 Nobody stops learning in this game. If you think you have ground yourself before you kill someone.

5 Even the newest cadet has a right to their opinion and to air said.

6 CRM is a new exciting way of discribing Airmanship and good manners.

7 You dont have to tell anyone that you are in charge and the final decision belongs to you .. they know.

8 The days you stop loving what you are doing in the aircraft stop and become a gardener coz it's not a place to be unhappy.

Right I am now taking off my pompous hat and getting a cold one from the fridge. Thank you for your time and good night.

Alwayzz:ok:

Wizofoz

14th Jun 2006, 21:37

Geez Broke, seems a few well qualified people more or less agree with my dubious opinions.

Just wish I could express it half as well as Alwayz just did.

Ace post:ok: :ok:

Tail Rota

14th Jun 2006, 23:12

Grumpy You have issues mate:E

From your first post I can only conclude that you are talking about cadets...because I am in the right hand seat on AB fleet and I may hit the odd light taxying but so do you ....idiot!!!! :{

and.......... as for the rest of it .......if you havent taken the time to pass on infomation from that massive experience bank you call hours ,,,,,and given a guy something useful to enhance his ignorance then you are the ignorant one.:}

Flaps one is not flaps one........... is slats only, on the approach:ugh: ........flying below green dot clean, close to the ground..while reducing any margin for error with my family on board is neglegent.......so what if you can do it....I know its ok to do it .....but give me one good reason to do it in the first place.......:cool: mmmmmmmmm.......oooh I have one.........how about ...

WHEN YOU FLY FREIGHT

Grumpy you need to pack it in.....i hope to fly with you soon so I can tell you to get a life....!

TR:ok:

reggie-mental

15th Jun 2006, 11:10

Grumpy,
I may have to report you to Greenpeace as you are depletin' the seas of some very big snappers. :D :D
Too much bait :=
RM:ok:

mondriver

24th Jun 2006, 10:54

what a load of sh!te!

Only sensible post here has come from alwaysinit......

Sztoggy

24th Jun 2006, 13:06

Why do U complain ? If you're not happy, why don't U leave somewhere else u won't find such low skilled pilots ? Does EK belongs to U ? If not, just try to improve things in a smart way, otherwise, just give it up.

Muttley Crew

24th Jun 2006, 18:54

The DEC course must be pretty cruisey if the lads have time for posting tips about Manhood on pprune.....:rolleyes:

Brian, is that you??

From the sound of the airmanship "advice" posted here, this cripple obviously needs a pair of FOs (extra crew) to keep him from rolling into the drink if left unsupervised, ala GF.

Mr Grumpy, please post a sample of your wonderful cabin crew briefing style... tell us how you charm the girls!! :D

Guys this tragic thread is another management ploy (Brian's first mission) to keep the lads from whinging about shaftings.

Warlock2000

24th Jun 2006, 21:34

........flying below green dot clean, close to the ground..while reducing any margin for error with my family on board is negligent.

Tail Rota: What a load of CRAP! Who taught you that dumb statement? He/She Lied!!
Go look in your Airbus Bible Volume 3 at the definition of GD speed. Damn EVERY time you take off and select Flap 0 guess what... you're BELOW GREEN DOT SPEED! :D Do you consider that "NEGLIGENT"?
No of course not, otherwise you would fly Flap 1 until a ball-hair below 20 000' (high enough for your family) and then clean it up, but that would just be plain STUPID. ;)

so what if you can do it....I know its ok to do it .....but give me one good reason to do it in the first place.....

Give me one not to...:ok: If you need to do it - just do it. :zzz:

purr

25th Jun 2006, 05:30

If after a long day you are so focused on a perfect profile,hope you leave a little somthing to handle a non normal situation.Mostly ,I prefer a small level segment prior to commencing the final segment.:ok:

chinawladi

25th Jun 2006, 07:34

Maybe i'm getting too old for that already.....
For all those who had the privilege to fly former generation aircraft it is absolutely
clear that flying below GD is stupid. Actually it's more or less a funny Airbus name for
clean speed. I know Airbus proves it to be possible, just as to stall a plane that supposedly
does not allow stall.
In the days with manual throttles we flew 1.5vs as clean speed. As the AT's and their protection modes
took over, this margin was reduced to 1.3vs. However this all applied for cruise and approach. On take-off
there has always been the 1.2vs because thrust (or power) was fixed on CLB or
MCT or equivalent. So comparing flying below GD on climbout (V2 speeds) with below GD in descent/approach (Vcl speeds),
with partial power or idle, shows little airmanship or aerodynamical knowledge. Airbus can give their
speeds any weird names, it all comes down to vs. Because even a Airbus can stall, it's only more or less
well protected against it with its allowed envelope.
There is very little reason to fly too close to min speed, you trade margin and pax comfort (att)
for just a little show off of knowledge of AOM's but lack of airmenship.

Zomp

25th Jun 2006, 08:40

china, are you sure GD means min clean spead and not min drag spead?

chinawladi

25th Jun 2006, 10:20

Zomp
As I stated ".....more or less" -> GD, minimum drag, Vcl or Vm(manoevering) are not absolutely the same, however per aerodynamical law and definition they come up more or less the same. They are all +/- 1.3 of Vs with no limits on bank. Most manufacturers and operators only recommend flying below these speeds with T/O, CLB or MCT power settings. These V2 speeds are somewhat bank limited due to the very reason of beeing closer to Vmin, Vls or Vs whatever you want to call them.

break dancer

25th Jun 2006, 10:27

Am I right in saying that after take off, you must wait for a positive trend in speed before selecting the next higher flap setting?

You don't deliberately fly below the flap speed for any length of time.

Zomp

25th Jun 2006, 11:57

china are you from down under?

Soft Altitude

25th Jun 2006, 12:15

Quite right, I believe there should be no confusion between flying below GD speed near the ground with engines at idle thrust during approach and flying at
V2+10 or greater with engine(s) on MCT or TOGA thrust at Take Off.
As break dancer said:"You don't deliberately fly below the flap speed for any length of time."
Next time, at or close Max TOW, when you retract your CONF 1+F, see what the V/S does, because of reduced "stall" margin: very scary close to ground.
Back to the original post, I see quite a lot of guys on the left seat pushing you to do things they are unable to demonstrate or accomplish. Back with my current airline the first sector is "always the captain's sector", which initially irritated me, but now I really kind of like it, 'cause I see what's the jockey on the left seat worth from the outset and if I might learn something from him:ok:
Happy landings.

chinawladi

25th Jun 2006, 12:17

Zomp ...... ehh ..... no.

Schnowzer

25th Jun 2006, 12:28

Chin,

Not true mate. In an Airbus, Vls clean is 1.23xVs and at 10k and 200 tons that would be 192kts. Green dot under those same conditions would be.......227kts.

Yep, Green Dot is just the Clean maneuvring speed and is set at 1.45Vs. So when you were flying around in the 'Ludmobile' at 1.3Vs you were actually .15 below Green Dot, so Green Dot is providing us with a 23kt buffer over your suggested limits, at the said conditions.

Vls is a different matter, it ensures 1.23Vs when clean but that drops to only 1.13Vs when you have flap out and are taking off. Your comments about power settings close to Vls are certainly appropriate on take off.

There is very little reason to fly too close to min speed, you trade margin and pax comfort (att) for just a little show off of knowledge of AOM's but lack of airmenship.

The bottom line is that it seems to be you are slamming a guy for flying below Green Dot but above Vls which is where you spent most of your career. Top tip, if you want to provide some sage advice about FBW aircraft, before you go wading in make sure you know what the speeds actually mean.

I have absolutely no problem with a guy flying below Green Dot as long as he doesn't need to maneuvre the aircraft significantly and stays well clear of Vls. Out of interest, on the approach with full flap selected we routinely decay the speed to Vls+5 with idle power selected and the protection afforded there is still more than 15% below the clean situation decried above.

Schnowzer

chinawladi

25th Jun 2006, 13:31

You are absolutely, certainly, positively right mate. Give me at least credit having said "more or less"....... or +/-.
The general idea is to fly with a appropriate margin and that it's poor airmenship to fly too close to min speeds. I was referring to manoevering speeds versus minimum (selectable) speeds.
If you state "I have absolutely no problem with a guy flying below Green Dot as long as he doesn't need to maneuvre the aircraft significantly" then you have to allow the question just WHAT are you doing if NOT manoevering when you fly such speeds................
If its for Vls+5 at Flaps 50, then you are on the final approach path and again bank and v/s limited (stall limited), allowing you to fly closer to min speeds.
The slamming was for the rather silly answer to ones post stating "give me a good reason to fly below GD" which said ".. give me a good reason not to". Sounds like "give me a good reason not to use full lenght".

Zomp

25th Jun 2006, 13:39

china,was just wondering because you talk s**t

Schnowzer

25th Jun 2006, 14:04

China,

Good enough!

Schnowzer

donpizmeov

25th Jun 2006, 14:17

I am guessing you are from Austria are you Zomp?

Don

Zomp

25th Jun 2006, 14:29

Don,
I guess you must be from oz then!

donpizmeov

25th Jun 2006, 14:31

Well who wudda guessed!!!! No wonder there are no Kangaroos in Austria:E

Don

Icare66

27th Jun 2006, 20:23

Just as a matter of interest Grumpy, where in the manuals did you find we can fly below gd? Do you often try to turn off the fuel pumps of an engine in flight? Ab doesn't mention it in the books neither. This is just common sense, which I obviously doubt you have any!
Thanks for your comments anyway, just wondering how you ever got into the LHS.

MR8

28th Jun 2006, 09:47

Gents, all quite simple... Must agree for most part wirh schnowzer.
No problem flying below GD, as long as you stay out of trouble, which is avoiding the VLS.
When would you do it? For example on an extended downwind where control asks you to reduce to below your green dot. Instead of getting the drag already out (an make it uncomfy for the pax with only slats out.. lol), you could just reduce to green dot. The moment you get your base turn, you get your flaps out and start turning... In my opinion that's great airmanship.
About the comment that nothing is written in the book and the fuel pumps etc etc...
When you switch off a fuel pump you'll get a light that says OFF, while airbus has a dark cockpit concept.. on the other hand, nothing prevents you from vlying below GD, even the AP will do it in selected mode. It gets dangerous near VLS, so that's where they built the protection, hence the name VLS.

MR8

Arctaurus

28th Jun 2006, 11:15

.............even the AP will do it in selected mode.

It will indeed, but tell me then, why won't it come below green dot clean in managed mode ?

MR8

28th Jun 2006, 12:15

The whole purpose of managed mode is that it manages the profiles and the speeds to be optimum. For example, if you change the cost index, all the speeds will change.
Now, if you fly an approach completely managed (which is almost impossible because of ATC restrictions), the aircraft will fly a continuous descent up to the 'D'-point, where it will automatically activate the approach fase and start decelerating towards final approach speed if you select flaps, which you better do or you will end up hot and high.

If we don't follow the profile because of radar vectors, and we activate the approach fase early, the managed mode will come back to an OPTIMUM speed, which happens to be minimum drag speed (same happens in the holding pattern) and thus GD. There is absolutely no reason for a managed speed to go below the green dot.

We as pilots on the other hand might have reasons to go below green dot, like ATC requests on extended downwinds. And although it is below the OPTIMUM (GD), it is still better then the alternative, which is extending the slats.

MR8

grumpy_bugger

28th Jun 2006, 12:41

It is good to read the comments of others who are practical and apply good airmanship to a given situation. It is equally bad but not surprising to read the comments of others who merely resort to insults and personal attacks if their views are not the same as other contributors. It's easy to be rude and insulting on an anonymous forum; very brave. Take what you will out of the original post; perhaps there may be one item that provides food for thought. (p.s. "phase")

what_goes_up

28th Jun 2006, 13:04

My 2 cents:

GD is not a safe speed but a minimum drag speed. But in my opinion there is no valid reason to go below GD. Slats are mainly produceing lift with a minimum amount of drag. If you can get a grip on AB drag graph you'll see that flying 10kt below GD produces about the same amount of drag as flying the same speed with slats out.
But there is another component to that. Although GD is not a safe speed, flying at or above protects you COMFORTABLY in any case. Try to fly at GD with the speed breakes out and do a 30 deg bank turn and you'll see that VLS is is about 1 or 2 kts below GD. So no major action needed by the engines. That is what really scares the pax and not the pitch build up by extending slats.

Conclusion:
It is perfectly safe to fly below GD but there is no need to and is therefor not recommended by the manufacturer.
Do not compare an AB with what you have learned on a conventional aircraft. GD is not minimum clean speed. But there is still reason not to fly below, although it's not a safety issue.

You safe more fuel with a decent desent planning than with flying below GD and THIS is a real issue within EK crews.

Schnowzer

28th Jun 2006, 14:56

WGU,

The speedbrake issue has nothing to do with Green Dot. If you leave the speedbrake out in many configurations it is possible to force the aircraft into Vls without turning at all. You have just removed lift from the wing so the min speed has increased. I think that argument is a red herring, we often have to modulate the amount of speedbrake selected to keep above Vls.

Icare, being trite the logical conclusion is that we must descend on the arrow. If the FMS says decelerate, we must decelerate. If we are above the FMS calculated vertical profile we must use speedbrake to achieve it even though we know it is incorrectly calculated.

It does not say in the manuals that we should put out the wheels before the flaps but sometimes going to Moscow you have to do it. Flying below Green Dot is an alternative just like selecting Flap 2, Gear down and flying at 180kts to get down to platform rather than decelerating and descending, which never seems to work as well. Surely (Don't call me Shirley) as pilots, it is our job to apply airmanship to come up with an appropriate solution in any given circumstances from a range of options.

The actual definition of Green Dot may surprise you, it is the 'Engine Out Operating Speed in the Clean Configuration' which also corresponds to the best lift to drag. It would therefore seem to be pretty stupid to fly below it with full power on but in a descent at idle it may well not be the worst thing to do. Interestingly though during clean up on take off we do fly below it with full bore on the jet every day. Worth thinking about?

mckaj

28th Jun 2006, 15:04

Wow this is a really exciting topic.:ugh:

Come on!!!! There must be something more important to discuss.

If you can hack it do it if not don’t. If your captain doesn’t want you to do it because of some odd reason then don’t. Who cares.

If you people had had just a little excitement in your previous flying career before joining this circus you would not give a rat’s @ss.

airbus757

28th Jun 2006, 16:11

Doesn't Vls stand for Velocity Lowest Selectable? I think so. That means airbus has determined the lowest safe speed which we as pilots should select. The are plenty of safe guards built into the system which keeps us from stalling the bird. Some might have little buzz words like "if my family were on board, good airmanship, safety, v1.23, blah blah blah. It all boils down to one indisputable fact, Vls is Vls. If you want to use it then use it. If not then don't.

Mckaj...if you don't like this boring thread then don't read it.

7

etihada

28th Jun 2006, 16:28

Interesting subject..too many misconceptions
Vls(lowest selectable)...equal to:
1.13 VS at take off
1.18 VS when Flaps are retracted
1.23 VS when clean(stays there until lndg)
Vls is corrected for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin
Vmc is taken into account
V2/1.05
1.05 Vmca max certified (take off)...in all other cases eq.or greater Vmcl

Green dot:ENG.OUT ops.speed in clean confi

Conclusion 1:no problem to go below u r still protected as per above.
Conclusion 2: Grumpy(and some other EK giants of knowledge) u have no clue about the AB prots in normal law ......but I like your att.and crm practices ;maybe I should leave EY and join EK u all seem to be a great
buhch of people

cheers:D

what_goes_up

28th Jun 2006, 16:33

chinawladi

28th Jun 2006, 17:00

etihada
No, just stay where you are, there are enough doctors at EK already.
Good to have the absolutely correct values rubbed into our noses again, especially the remark about the superb AB system that "..corrects for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin." It's so much fun to wait for that little inversion, wake turbulence, wind shear or microburst as these phenomenons set in so gently, with timely preanouncement.
Personally I prefer flying around with a sound margin. Might be because I am a less brave pilot than many around here, but hey ...
Let's just try to stay live.

Silky

28th Jun 2006, 17:20

:ugh:
tell me this, do you not fly below gd every other day, selecting flap UP at S speed when gd is 20..30 knots above... the fact of the matter is, those in EK do NOT understand GD, it has nothing to do with being BRAVE just to do with understanding. Indicated gd on the pfd in norm conditions is NOT best single eng speed... vls while being the lowest selectable velocity/speed still is 1.23vs1g X94% so yet again more protections built in. I am not saying that I myself condone flying at VLS or below, but reducing to below gd on an app to maintain a cda is acceptable, as long as it is controlled and the pf and pnf are in agreement and understand what and where they are.
Those who have flown other olde Airbuses have seen gd and VLS are nearly co located, whereas on the A33F the lift to drag profile is such that a big split is always evident.
p.s. How can you do an over weight landing if VFE next is below GD as is the case...well the QRH tells you select vfe next -5......:zzz:

Schnowzer

28th Jun 2006, 17:24

Mckaj,

Excrement, are you authorising me to start WIWOLing? Did I tell you about the time the Redtop......:zzz: .

Sorry chaps put myself to sleep too!

etihada

29th Jun 2006, 17:26

chinawladi,
thanx 4 the advice ....wilco...no offence ment whatsoever just trying to put some light into the subject...afterall is not the speed that kills u its the sudden stop:sad:

fiddlair

30th Jun 2006, 11:24

The truth is that many FOs just do not have any basic knowledge, and quite a few captains as well... and most of them like to write on pprune...
I'm 99% agree with grumpy, I'd be happy to hear noting me about using the speedbrake, 'cos 90% of the cases we do not need them...
Here's another gum for you to chew: On an ILS if you follow 1 dot above the glide all the way down to runway, where you gonna touch the runway?

Icare66

30th Jun 2006, 11:45

My 2 cents:

GD is not a safe speed but a minimum drag speed. But in my opinion there is no valid reason to go below GD. Slats are mainly produceing lift with a minimum amount of drag. If you can get a grip on AB drag graph you'll see that flying 10kt below GD produces about the same amount of drag as flying the same speed with slats out.
But there is another component to that. Although GD is not a safe speed, flying at or above protects you COMFORTABLY in any case. Try to fly below GD with the speed breakes out and do a 30 deg bank turn and you'll see that VLS is is about 1 or 2 kts below GD. So no major action needed by the engines. That is what really scares the pax and not the pitch build up by extending slats.

Conclusion:
It is perfectly safe to fly below GD but there is no need to and is therefor not recommended by the manufacturer.
Do not compare an AB with what you have learned on a conventional aircraft. GD is not minimum clean speed. But there is still reason not to fly below, although it's not a safety issue.

You safe more fuel with a decent desent planning than with flying below GD and THIS is a real issue within EK crews.

Totally agree with that! Thanks

Ray Darr

30th Jun 2006, 13:55

Here's another gum for you to chew: On an ILS if you follow 1 dot above the glide all the way down to runway, where you gonna touch the runway?

According to the FCOM's, it says "at 50', one dot low means you will be 14 feet low" so based on their logic, one dot high would mean 14 feet high which would mean eating up a LOT of landing surface.

...But if you follow the one-dot-high beam exACTly down to touchdown, you would be touching down EXACTLY at the normal touchdown point (plus the distance the G/S needle is displaced on the ILS display on board) past the "normal" touchdown point. (Stick with me now, folks) In other words, like, 0.25 cm's. (You would have to keep adjusting that "one dot high" with some fast finesse all the way to touchdown in the same way you would "home" to a beacon vs "track with wind-correction". Kapish? No? Get a beer and re-read it then, hombre. :)

HowEVER, if you kept yourself above the dot to a "cut-off" point somewhere along the approach-path, after which you would transition to the VASI's (etc), and kept yourself, say, 2 1/2 white for eg, then you will touch down long (as is a sadly over-practiced habit where the crew have only flown into vast tracts of endless runways all of their career). :sad: I've seen crew proudly boast they did a great landing... (yes, habibi, but it was 2,000 feet beyond the touch-down zone). :=

I'll guess, with a FIRM landing, say...6 to 800 feet.

Cheers,
R.D.

Ghostflyer

1st Jul 2006, 06:53

Ray,

Nope, you'll hit the touchdown point off a slightly steeper approach and just need to flare a tad harder to get a nice touchdown unless you have a magic moving ILS antenna! Then you'll fall asleep in the bus back to CBC because of all the mental anguish caused from trying to workout what would happen. The car ride home would be horrific cos you would be reading the FOM to see whether or not you were able to do it with the A/Thrust engaged and without SVP authorisation. You'd get home, write your resignation letter, give back your free furniture and then have a good nights sleep for the first time in years without the alarm going off at 2am.:zzz:

fiddlair

1st Jul 2006, 11:06

Ray the short answer is : at the same point. Of course only theoretically, as you have to keep a slightly higher rate of descent( about 900 ftpmin depending on the weather and weight naturally) and you want to flare nicely. The long answer is: If we talk about FCOMs, and data from there, then you have to specify the type you are talking about when mentioning 14 and so on feet...
That is because on one aircraft 1 dot means 0.4 degree, on another 0.5 degree or maybe more and the ILS might be anything between 2.8 and 3.3 degrees I guess, so if the glideslope is 3.0 degrees, it's 5.2% which means you are probably 52 feet over the treshold (again theoretically) and the touchdown is 1000 ft from treshold.
You can maintain 2 or more dots above, and still catch the ground the same place.

Ray Darr

1st Jul 2006, 11:52

...If we talk about FCOMs, and data from there, then you have to specify the type you are talking about when mentioning 14 and so on feet...

Fiddlemethis...>>> I <<< agree with you, however, Messieur Airbus states exactly what I wrote, as quoted from the A319/A320/A321, A330, and A340's FCOM's...have a look in 3.03.18.

...and just need to flare a tad harder ...

Oh...Ghosty...yeah I realize the flare would take you further past the normal touch-down point if you flew "my" mentioned method for the one-dot-high approach...but who said I flare?!! :} ...besides, whaddya worried over this for, mate, ...you always autoland! :p

Peace, y'all.

~R.D.

145qrh

1st Jul 2006, 14:14

1 dot is .15 degrees from memory, your figures look like Localiser figs....but,and I say again,but who the **** cares,,,fly glideslope......land..end of...:D

flying is an easy job people with "theories" try and make harder.:ugh:

As for green dot ...dont try and out think the plane or the people who designed it,if you were that clever you would be doing their job , then you could get the system to do it the way you would like it to work....

Speed request below G/d, few knot, maybe 10 is a good number , discuss and select ,if you both feel comfortable......it won't fall out the sky by the way, if not put the bloody flaps out ,don't try and complicate it, 1.23Vs ,1.05., blah,blah, bull,blah..yawnnnnn .

Feels nicer with flap/slat out, lower nose attitude, actually helps in TMA to see other planes, also feels better for crew and pax not to have 8-9 pitch attitude...also 1 less thing to screw up, 1 less thing to explain at subsequent board of enquiry.......

My aim is to get as much money as possible from the buggers and to try and make the job as easy as it could or should be be.

grumpy_bugger

1st Jul 2006, 15:19

Hoo-bloody-rah:D

Ghostflyer

2nd Jul 2006, 00:39

QRH,

My aim is to get as much money as possible from the buggers and to try and make the job as easy as it could or should be be

Is it working?

TOGA Descent

10th Jul 2006, 05:46