Jetstar pilot life expectancy

[Eagleman]

I have just completed my medical. Apparently little Alan was quite outspoken at a recent forum attended by a number of DAMEs. He said he expects JQ pilots to burn out in 6 to 7 years, but he is not worried, they will be easy to replace. Aussies overseas are becoming more desperate to return home. The most recent 330 recruiteing program has proved this. He also confirmed AWA's will be introduced at JQ.

JQ International pilots will all be doing 930 hours per annum

I called another DAME mate who confirmed the statements were made.

Nice to know he is thinking of the welfare of his pilots and doing something positive about it!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Abuse of sick leave could push it out to 10 or 11. :}

[Elroy Jettson]

Why would it worry him? As he sees it, there is a sucker born every minute who will pay for the privilege to be burnt out by jester. :yuk: Wont cost him a cent to replace them.

[3 Holer]

Abuse of sick leave could push it out to 10 or 11.

Doing 900 hours plus p.a. equates to over 90 per month. (Assuming 42 days leave p.a.) Maintain that for a couple of years and you would require all your annual sick leave entitlements just to combat fatigue creep.

How can you abuse sick leave when you use your full quota every year?

[Aussie]

Stress leave...

[bushy]

It appears that the airlines and the airline pilots are exploting each other just like many pilots and companies in GA do. To the extreme.

It is supply and demand, and the supply is excessive, due to the flying schools feeding "feelgood fairy stories" to the wannabies in order to make money.i

Many of these wannabies then find out what the situation really is, and prostitute themselves to try and get ahead of their "mates", and do great harm to GA in the process. The airlines love it. So do the flying schools. But it is only the second rate GA companies that love it.They can get cheap pilots.Their old aeroplanes have new paint, and new pilots, many of whom are out of their depth..

Are we really surprised that this is now starting to happen in our airline system? . Let's face it. Many of the airline pilots are the same "wannabies" who prostituted themselves to get where they are.
Are some of them still doing it? Have the airline pilots in this country developed a culture that says "bugger it I am going to look after me, no matter what it takes. Ethics, honesty, and fair play are only for losers"

Todays airline pilots have set these standards. It's coming back to bite you.

[Casper]

Only one way to improve your pay and conditions. It has been done in the past.

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_appendices.htm#APPENDIX%2010

[Gnadenburg]

WTF did you guys vote it up, then not bid for it and then FINALLY discover the "rostering clause" is going to kill you!

:ugh:

[Aussie]

Casper,

That link isnt working....

Aussie

[neville_nobody]

It has been said before but Jetstar is essentially GA in a Airbus.

[drshmoo]

Dear Aussie, it appears that it is a cut a paste link and then it works fine.


Yes it appears that it is GA in Airbus'

You pay them and then they send you at your expense to NZ to not be subsidised etc.
$37k NZ for endo
4-5k for accomodation and food and god knows what pay you have missed out on. Works out about $40k AU at least to then be at the mercy of Dixo and the lepricorn. They show you no proffesional respect by treating you as GA scum, so we will see down the track if the J* pilot group have warm fuzzy feelings for the company, or treat it as just another GA outfit

All they need is a few old GA cronies as the Chief Pirate

[cunninglinguist]

For :mad: sake, whatever you Pornstar guys do, do not let the company introduce an AWA.
Having worked under that system for many years I can tell you it is absolutely, unequivically,a piece of :mad:, unless you are management in which case you'll love it.:ugh:

[haughtney1]

You pay them and then they send you at your expense to NZ to not be subsidised etc.
$37k NZ for endo
4-5k for accomodation and food and god knows what pay you have missed out on. Works out about $40k AU at least to then be at the mercy of Dixo and the lepricorn

I dont know why this is a surprise to anyone..:hmm:
Have a read of some of the other threads regarding Ryanair etc plus a host of other Lo Co's
The only way this kind of exploitation is going to stop is if you guys stick together...however with the state of GA in Oz at the moment, I cant see it happening. So get used to it.

[neville_nobody]

The other point to remember here too is that people BEGIN their careers in European LCC. So whilst the Ryanair deal sucks you spend a few years there then move onto a bigger and better things. In Australia it's the END OF THE LINE if you wish to remain living in Australia. After going through the GA experience in this country we do not want it repeated again in the airlines. Otherwise you will essentially spend your life in an apprenticeship never progressing and paying for the priviledge.

[Icarus2001]

Doing 900 hours plus p.a. equates to over 90 per month. (Assuming 42 days leave p.a.)
I must have a different calculator to you, 3 holer.

Assuming 6 weeks leave, a pilot works 10.5 months a year. 900 hours divided by 10.5 months is about 86 hours a month. Or based on 46 weeks work, about 20 hours a week. Say four hours a day(average) over a five day week.

Nice work if you can get it.:)

[maui]

Icarus

Are you using one of those new fangled metric calculators, or still sticking with the imperial model?

Maui

[Cactus Jak]

Say four hours a day(average) over a five day week.
Nice work if you can get it.:)

Yeah, so lets see.
ML-CS (overnight)
CS-BN-PH (overnight)
PH-BN-CS (overnight)
CS-SY-AD (overnight)
AD-ML-HB-ML HOME!!!
2 days off
Start again.

Maybe not the exact route network but this would roughly equate to 20 hours in 5 days.

Nice work if you can get it. :ok:

[3 Holer]

Icarus2001 you must be a bean counter to arrive at those figures. You have not factored in days off per month (normally 8) and my base figure was 900 hours plus.

Neat average though and as you say, "Nice work if you can get it."

Reality is Cactus Jak's scenario !

Good try. :=

[Eagleman]

Cactus Jack JQ does not do overnights

A typical pattern is

SYD - AVV - SYD - MCO - SYD
SYD - AVV -SYD - MCO - SYD
SYD - CNS - SYD
SYD - OOL - SYD - OOL - SYD

Pilots are blocked to between 85 and 90 hours per month

[murgatroid]

If this is true, then surely those health professionals that were in attendance have an obligation to inform CASA, the health department and also workcover. Can they not be found negligent by the medical standards board if they fail to report such concerns?

If J* are aware of potential health risks, then aren't they also bound to take steps to minimise risk?

Some canny lawyers would have a field day with this, if it's true.

[fistfokker]

Icarus obviously has nothing to do with aviation. If this is not the case then the simplistic calculations are surely a result of stupidity.

In addition to the 42 days leave are compulsory course/ground school/simulator/renewal days. Usually at least another 14 days. Therefore only 10 months remaining in which to fly 900+ hours. This is of course forgetting that even pilots have the odd day sick.

Now lets not forget Sign on Time 1:00 hour prior to departure +30 minutes per turnaround, barely time to breathe before next departure and 15 minutes of duty after arrival. So the "4hours" per day ends up at closer to 9 hours of duty. But lets not forget the many days that include 7 hours plus flying plus the above mentioned buffers.

I am not complaining, as I chose this profession. It simply annoys me when ignorant people quote crap that they haven't the foggiest about.

It is still not a bad days work, if you love it.

[Lagrange]

42 days annual leave!

How many pilots have had their leave either assigned or cancelled to suit the peaks and troughs?

A reasonable management technique to cover planning inadequacies, but is it reasonable fatigue management when you are achieving 900 plus hours each year out of the pilot group?

No amount of money can reduce fatigue!

[nzmarty]

oh what i'd give for 900/year.

some of us are looking into the bowels of aeroplanes for near on 2500hrs/year....oh, minus leave of course - 160hrs/year - so that's only 2340hrs/year.

no wonder i want to go flying :)

[gas-chamber]

900 flying hours over 10 months is not so hard. Did it for years in my youth. The only thing better than that would be 900 hours in 9 months and have 3 off. Once I did 1000 with a foreign operator in just under 10 months and had a great time with the enforced leave for the rest of the year. As long as the hours can be flown at civilised hours and not lots of late nights or early mornings back to back. You gotta love your leave and treat it as sacrosanct. I always, always took it, never let them pay me filthy money instead. Hence I am still healthy, touch wood. Lots of American operators get 1000 or more and only allow 2 weeks leave. Now that's hard and potentially life-threatening and shame on the FAA for allowing it.
Any pilot who sells leave back to the Company is letting the side down big time. Management only see this as proof we are driven by greed and destroys the safety argument.
IMHO it it is not the flying hours that makes or breaks the spirit, it is all the duty time and crewing patterns that need to be factored in by the health experts and fatigue management systems.
When fatigue gets dangerous pilots absolutely owe it to themselves to go sick or go elsewhere. One of the few times that I ever flew when seriously fatigued I made an error of judgement that could have been expensive for the operator. While it might have served them right, it would not have looked good on the resume so I resolved to just go sick if I ever got too tired again.

[ur2]

NZMARTY,
A 7hr flying day is 7hrs at the controls and another 4.5 at work.
Typical of a non pilot to see 900hrs/yr as that is all you actually do all yr.:hmm:

[max autobrakes]

Lots of luck trying to do 900hrs a year on the route network/schedule that is proposed.
Try closer to 750hrs a year as a starting point.

While your at it ,how is Joyce going to sell tickets in Japan .
Internet sales won't work.The only way to sell tickets in Japan is through travel agents.

Once again lots of luck.

More and more JetStar is appearing to be nothing more than a short term vessel to screw down the costs in the primary carrier, Qantas.

[rammel]

With the A380 delays and the a/c changes due to one B744 u/s in JFK. Will J* Int get all the A330-200 at this point in time, or will they lease more? Just a thought after a long day and a few drinks

[Icarus2001]

Icarus obviously has nothing to do with aviation.WRONG.:bored:
If this is not the case then the simplistic calculations are surely a result of stupidity.
Possibly. I may be stupid but I can divide 900 by 10.5 and arrive at a figure less than 90 which was my original point!

3 holer said...Doing 900 hours plus p.a. equates to over 90 per month. (Assuming 42 days leave p.a.) My post simply pointed out the inconsistency.
fistfokker if I agree with you that sim days, ground school etc takes up two weeks then we are left with 10 months to fly (minus sick days) agreed? (Q: Is sim time part of the 900 hours anyway?) So 900 hours divided by 10 months is 90 hours per month, agreed?
Given that most months have about 21 working days (assuming 5 days on 2 off in a week) then 90 hours a month averages out at 4.3 hours per day. Didn't I say Say four hours a day(average) over a five day week In fact if the month has 22 working days then the daily hours becomes 4.1. Clearly this is average for all the days that you fly over 7 hours there are the other days that you fly about 3, true?

We are talking flying hours, stick time, block time whatever you wish to call it. I thought it was too bleeding obvious to add in pre and post flight duty, that is a different subject.:rolleyes:

nzmarty brings in a touch of the real world I think. Perspective is everything.:D

[Alien Sex God]

What happens if they crash and it was caused by fatigue and it becomes known the boss made a staement like that?

[coaldemon]

I thought that Jetstar operates under the exemption so they can do 1000 hours a year.

[Icarus2001]

ASGWhat happens if they crash and it was caused by fatigue and it becomes known the boss made a staement like that?
A statement like what?
Ninety hours a month is an average of about 4.3 hours per day? Outrageous, fancy making such ridiculous and clearly flawed statements. Stone him, stone him...:rolleyes:

[RENURPP]

I believe he meant this statement. posted by eagleman on page one. Apparantly refers to a comment joyce made at a meeting involving DAME's.

He said he expects JQ pilots to burn out in 6 to 7 years, but he is not worried, they will be easy to replace.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

1000hrs a year looks manageable if your in an office, with access to the amenities to make your day comfortable. id say the 6-7 years is more like 2-3. Especially if your an older individual!!. false economy i think youd call it.

A power nap could save your life. cheers DM

[yowie]

Coaly,
I believe that NJS are the only ones with that little gem!:cool:

[rmcdonal]

I think the management teams see it as they see their own day. Work 9 to 5 is an 8hr day.
What they don’t see is the lunch brake they get, the numerous coffee/smoke breaks, the fact that a pilot day may start at almost any hr of the day or night. Even the ability to get up and walk around for a bit.
'I work an 8hr day driving my desk, the pilots should be able to do the same driving the plane.' :ugh: :ugh:

[Sonny Hammond]

cause you just put the autopilot on, theres nothing to do these days, is there?

:yuk:

My neighbour came out with this the other day, I felt like punching him.

[Eagleman]

AJ does not believe fatique is an issue. Everyone is tired at the end of the day!! Besides, as Big Bruce of BCG fame said, "I put in more hours that any of our pilots every day".

It is tragic that firstly, CASA issues the exemption to airlines that have no fatigue programs in place but secondly, does not bother to audit their application.

The ATSB report into any JQ accident will mirror three previously issued reports
Ansett 747
Monarch
Seaview
These reports had two common threads -

Incompetent CASA oversight
Management incompetency in the airlines concerned

So much for learning lessons from the past!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Eagleman

Why don't J* blokes do something about it? Fair enough if you don't have the clout, unity or balls. But stop blaming everyone else for your woes.

It's the fault of Qantas pilots, it's CASA's fault, it's Joyce's fault, it's the ex-Ansett pilots fault.........etc etc.

You have been quick to sign off on any deal for your own gain. When the stark reality hits, it's everyone elses fault.

[Sonny Hammond]

1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders, a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, considering the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.

Unless AJ or GD now has more authority than the Attorney General, this debate is just playing AJ's game. Move on.

[Gnadenburg]

So much for a duty of care towards pilots and the future of Aussie aviation.

You guys crack me up. Respect yourselves and other will follow suit.

It doesn't matter if J* pilots burn out in 6 years. Who cares? Most probably can't go anywhere else anyway- perhaps a job in a ragged LCC in China or India- same money but no tax.

When you were undercutting everyone and signing off on below average CofS, you were all boasting how wonderful avation was. Not so now eh.

Welcome to reality. Your reality! :}

[max autobrakes]

Sounds like JetStar will take anyone in order to screw Qantas.
Hell there's hope for me yet. :}