Unhygenic PAX

[tuismile]

I operated a 3 hour delayed ALC the other day which wasn't too bad on the outbound. However.... on the inbound flight, we had a few specials (pax with wheelchairs)...

There was one elderly woman with her son...who had blisters on her legs and feet and pus oozing out of her ankles (sorry to be so graphic).But worst of all..she smelt absolutley offensive!!! U can tell that her son had not been looking after her properly at all (not saying that it's totally his fault).. PAX at the bottom of the stairs could smell her and it got to the point where we were literally heaving...

Also when she got onto the aircraft, it was time to get her out of the wheelchair... her legs were so weak, that she couldn't actually stand up...she collapsed onto the floor. It took at least 15 mins for the woman to be put into her seat, then it was time to board the PAX. we had to move the passengers around the woman away from her, we had to spray aftershave and perfume onto tissues to help us deal with the smell. We informed the captain of this...and suggested offloading her and her son..he however decided to let her be. I understand that airlines have slots and an aircraft on the ground is not making money, however, when it comes to hygiene..bearing in mind that we are serving food on this flight...I do not think this is acceptable. The flight deck could smell the odour from the LOCKED, BULLET PROOF flight deck door!!!

I personally don't think she should have been allowed to leave the UK in the first place...maybe I'm being harsh...

Does anyone else have any other views????

[EC Does It]

Flew a woman tonight, bleeding all over the shop. Smelt of sh!t, p1ss, and looked as though she hadn't had a wash in ages............... Then I remembered that I'm a Helivac pilot and that she had been knocked over and eviscerated.

Things aren't always what they seem. Could be that your pax was in dire straits and just needed to get back home for treatment without being able to afford a medevac. There is always a reason for the way that people present themselves.

Try not to be too judgemental, it may be difficult to deal with, but it's not forever. It may just be that you made her day and brightened up her very sad and painful life. We aren't all lucky enough to be able to afford or to be afforded POD healthcare.

[GaryJon]

Not a very nice situation for all involved. 10 years ago I worked as a Healthcare Assistant at the Royal Free and helped to look after many people with skin problems from elderly people with ulcerated legs to young people with severe psoriasis.

All these conditions are very upsetting for the patient and whilst they can be " offensive" to the eye and nose it is so important not to show any disdain as the patient will already be very aware of the situation.

I'm sure this lady and her son were very conscious of the smell and must have felt embarrassed.

I also would question whether she should have been allowed to travel if her condition was as bad at the time of leaving the UK. But of course it could have flared up during her trip and in that case she would have had very little option but to get home asap.

I think that a little superficial cleansing of the area before boarding or actually on board could have helped but I also realise that Crew aren't nursing staff and some wouldn't relish the thought of assisting in this way.
Ideally there should be nursing staff at airports to tend to this eventuality but of course in the real world this just isn't practical.

[tuismile]

Oh i totally agree.. obviously as crew, we are meant to be able to deal with passengers from all walks of life which we did. We dealt with the passengers just as we did with everyone else. I'm just thinking that in terms of complaints from passengers and in terms of hygiene i.e food etc... it wasn't very pleasant.

And i do sincerely feel sorry for the lady. I'm sure she was aware of the situation which was obviously out of her control..

[Rick Storm]

When I was a young lad, let a stink bomb off on a Dan-Air flight got invited to the flight deck (wow I thought) skipper gave me a clout around ear, smiled and said "well done young man" I'm still looking for the git on 'Where are they now' forum.

Rick

[Rainboe]

There you are! You right little scrote! Try that again and the same agin for you laddie!

[exmax]

Whats the deal with parents changing dirty nappies on seats as opposed to on the change table in the toilets? I used to see that a lot.

[flybywire]

and what about not washing their hands after peeing????? It happens all the time, also noticed many times with non-offensive looking business men as well!!! :yuk:

The next time I hear that somebody has cought some bug/infection because of "recycled" air on the plane, I will have to do a bacteriological test on their hands to show where those bugs come from in reality...

A warning....guys and gals, we do notice that the sink is still clean, the soap hasn't been used and the hand towels never run out!! So do not be upset if I don't want to touch your boarding card or shake your hand as you disembark, we both know where your hands have been!

[Ozzy747]

yeah that is very disgusting.

especially when they change it on the tray table while people are eating!

[Ozzy747]

hahahahahahaha flybywire you are so right!

i always make sure i close the toilet door and flush the toilet with a hand towl. i dont want to touch anything in there.

[blueloo]

i personally think you should have offered to squeeze their puss infested blisters. Maybe set up a competition with other crew members to see who can get the most distance from a good squirt.

[Ozzy747]

hahahahahahahahaha blueloo you crack me up!

i wonder what you could say "excuse me madam, i couldnt help to notice your pussy legs, do you require assistance to squeeze out some excess puss? how can i best assist you? " LOL

[Rainboe]

Anyone in this state should have been washed before flight and bandaged! She must have been attracting flies! Disgusting behaviour and it should not have been accepted. As far as the groundstaff are concerned, they just want to be shot of the problem as quickly as possible, so all they care about is doing that the easiest way, which is pass them along the system (to the crew!).
I will never forget being met by the groundstaff at JNB who asked the Captain 'a transit passenger coming from Harare was drunk and punched a stewardess in flight. He's settled down now. You'd be willing to take him to LHR, wouldn't you?'. Err..... no, amidst hysterical laughter. You cannot expect the groundstaff to do the right thing- the easiest way to disentangle themselves is to pass the parcel straight to you! I would always go by the recommendation of the senior CC.

[Crew Use Only]

Going into the washroom bare footed always sickens me...I've given up asking them not to do it...!

Are they so stupid to think the liquid on the floor is water...?

[gib]

on a charter jet from LGW we had a mother change her baby on the tray table wich she then ate her meal off:yuk:

yuk!

[SXB]

Some of the comments on this thread turn my stomach.

If someone is in a wheelchair there is normally a pretty good reason as to why, normally this is because they are not fully in control of their body and this includes control over some of their most basic functions, probably the reason for the smell.

Cabin crew are supposed to be trained to deal with less able bodied passengers, this is part of your job, you don't get to choose your PAX. All credit to the Captain for declining to offload the unfortunate individual.

Back to the training centre for you, tuismile, and I hope not to meet you on my travels

[tuismile]

Some of the comments on this thread turn my stomach.

If someone is in a wheelchair there is normally a pretty good reason as to why, normally this is because they are not fully in control of their body and this includes control over some of their most basic functions, probably the reason for the smell.

Cabin crew are supposed to be trained to deal with less able bodied passengers, this is part of your job, you don't get to choose your PAX. All credit to the Captain for declining to offload the unfortunate individual.

Back to the training centre for you, tuismile, and I hope not to meet you on my travels

I don't think you're right there SXB... as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to the wellbeing of other customers, she should have been offloaded. And it's pretty unhygenic to be serving food when you have a customer like this unfortunate lady on board! If anything it would have been doing her a favour offloading her, purely beacuse any passenger that passed her was making disgusted faces, holding there noses etc. And please don't comment like that to me unless you were on the flight which I'm sure you weren't as I did exactly that...I dealt with her and her son thank you very much! I treated her just like any other passenger. So NO GOING BACK to the training center thank you..I'm quite up-to-date with my S.E.P's!!!

[SXB]

Tuismile
It seems that your Captain disagreed with you and did the correct thing, which is the only thing that matters really

[Leclairage]

As a humble Pax on an Asian carrier into LHR a year or so ago, I was disappointed to discover upon landing that the shoes I had removed from my feet and tucked under the seat in front for the duration of the flight were soaked.
The 'lady' in the seat in front hadn't moved once during the flight, and had left her seat before I realised what she had done. So I missed the opportunity of returning the compliment into her hand luggage.
Flying sure brings the worst out in some folks.

[flyblue]

tuismile,
I don't know the rules in your company, but where I work, people with medical problems should have a medical certificate released by the company Medical Service. In case of doubt, if they don't have any, then CC or the Capt can request medical advice from the airport Medical Service. In case of problem I report the to the Capt (I'm usually the first to know about the problem because I had a special course to take care of passengers with disabilities) who 1)talks to the ground personnell 2)calls for the Medical Service.
It happened to me recently, when a pax who spoke only Romanian and only a little English told me she needed to check her pressure every two hours since she had an "attack" (that's the term she used) a few hours earlier. Of course I immediately spoke to the Captain who called for medical advice.

SXB,
I don't agree with your view. The crew (pilots and CC) are also in charge for the well being and safety of the rest of the pax. Pus is very infectious and the company might rightly have been sued if it had come into contact with another pax...not to speak of the person who had to sit on the same seat on the I/B. She should have been medicated and bandaged. Plus, for people not in control of their body functions there are ways to "take care" of the problems that arise with the condition. I'm more with Rainboe on this one when he says that probably the ground staff only wanted to "get rid" of the problem, as it happens sometimes. It is not acceptable that one pax, even a "medical" one, becomes a problem for the rest of the occupants of the aircraft, and only because her hygiene and medical problems were neglected. There are companies providing special services in these cases, or Doctors to accompany them for the flight. But then I am sure no doctor would have left her in the condition tuismile describes.

[SXB]

I don't agree with your view. The crew (pilots and CC) are also in charge for the well being and safety of the rest of the pax.

FlyBlue, That maybe be so but the Captain did make an informed decision and he decided to ignore the recommendation of his CC which was to remove the PAX. His is the ultimate responsibility and I suspect he could already see the negative publicity his airline would attract should he have decided to accept the advice of his CC.

You don't get to choose your passengers and sometimes you just have to do the best you can. I still think that some of the comments on this thread do CC absolutely no justice at all.

[tuismile]

Well I think that the airline's reputation would not have gone out of the window at all. There is no way I would risk the health and safety of over 100 pax for the publicity of the airline. If anything, I think keeping the lady and her son onboard the aircraft makes worse publicity than offloading them. pax were complaining for the whole flight asking us why we didn't offload her and if anything I think it would havesaved her a bit of embarrassment if she had been off loaded. To have pax making sickened faces infront of you is not pleasant in the slightest.

And this woman was apparently in the same condition when she left LGW. And the crew on the flight that took her out all asked their captain the same question, but he declined. All down to slots and getting home as quickly as possible I'm assuming.

The agent in Alicante said to me she wouldn't be suprised if twe turned back in 10 minutes time, because of the situation.

[SXB]

Tuismle
So that's two Captains making the same decision with the same passenger after receiving the same advice from the CC.Case closed I'd say.....

[BaronChotzinoff]

I was once at a Prom concert in London and the old man standing in front of me with a young boy was clearly incontinent, there were nauseating wafts of fresh micturation dispersed with galling regularity, one might have kept a watch to his bladder. Now imagine *that* on a plane.

It's not a problem I've noticed like you do on buses and trains, though I once sat next to an overweight American in shorts on a domestic US flight in summer who was eating from a bag full of cakes and gave off a horrible pasty smell.

But the last couple of times I've flown I've cycled to the airport with just a sleeping bag and change of clothes, the first time I managed to get a shower from the sprinklers on the golf course where I was bivvying but the second time not, I do hope that wasn't noticeable on the flight next morning, having done 100 miles to get there the evening before.

[206cc_jim]

Back to the training centre for you, tuismile, and I hope not to meet you on my travels

:mad: :mad:

since we are on the subject of training centre SXB may i remind you of your training? you are there for the safety and well being of all passengers and other crew on board that a/c even at the expense of one person?

an example given to me during my time at the blessed training centre:
if you are performing resusitation on a heart attack victim, you return to your seat for landing and then resume once taxiing, obviously at this time they will have probably died.

so SXB, may i suggest it is back to the training centre for you? as it may seem harsh, but i would rather one person be uncomfortable and a few passengers experience a bad smell than 200+ experience food poisening etc...

[captcat]

206cc_jim,

from his remarks on this and other Forums, I doubt very much that SXB works in aviation (at least anywhere near an aircraft).

[SXB]

Captcat
That may be so but one can only point out that both captains on both these flights arrived at the same conclusion as I did, therefore I can't be that stupid, can I ?

[206cc_jim]

no one but yourself SXB has mentioned that you are stupid.

The captains made their decision based on completely different ojectives than why you said what you did, the operation of an airline is very complex and although personally i would not make that decision from a crew or pax perspective i can probably say from a capt, point of view i would end up making that decision.


I am glad saddam hussein is no longer in charge of Iraq, however i do not compare myself to George Bush?

nuff said?

[woolyalan]

SXB,

Can you honestly say that, if you were on the aircraft at the time, and suppose the captain had agreed to offload the passenger, you would stand up and object to that course of action?

Or perhaps the passenger did stay onboard, you wouldnt complain about the smell?

[SXB]

Woolyalan
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.

Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.

[cheeryguy]

SXB posted.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.

[flybywire]

SXB posted.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.

Brilliant post cheeryguy, and I fully agree!!!!!
This is a great example of what I'd call a professional cabin crew. :D

[EAAFA]

SXB, you said: "...the Captain did make an informed decision and he decided to ignore the recommendation of his CC..."
Were you there? How do you know that the Captain's decision was informed or whether he just chose the easier option? It seems to me as if he went with the easier option because he was well away from the smell.
The most qualified people to make the decision are the ones who have to deal with the passengers in question and based on the description of the situation, the Captain didn't even see the passenger.
I'm appalled by the fact that the Captain did not back up his crew!
And by the way, cabin crew are first aiders, not medical staff. There is a big difference between the two.
In my airline passengers with pre-existing medical problems who cannot look after themselves are required to travel with a carer or professional medical staff. Given the description of the lady's condition, her son obviously was not meeting his obligations and as such should have been denied boarding.

[iamorgan]

Flew a woman tonight, bleeding all over the shop. Smelt of sh!t, p1ss, and looked as though she hadn't had a wash in ages............... Then I remembered that I'm a Helivac pilot and that she had been knocked over and eviscerated.

Things aren't always what they seem. Could be that your pax was in dire straits and just needed to get back home for treatment without being able to afford a medevac. There is always a reason for the way that people present themselves.

Try not to be too judgemental, it may be difficult to deal with, but it's not forever. It may just be that you made her day and brightened up her very sad and painful life. We aren't all lucky enough to be able to afford or to be afforded POD healthcare.

I appreciate that, but...surely it's not the other passengers or crews problem whatever problems she may or may not have. Sureley, if you could potentially catch something from her (often small children crawl about) coats on floor in her pus. But I understand what you are saying. I would have thought that someone who literally couldn't stand up at all and "collapsed on to the floor" and who is leaking fluids from blisters is not fit to fly and is a hazard to others. Or am I being too harsh?? You have to balance one person's problems with the potential problems caused by that passenger to the rest of the passengers.

[iamorgan]

Woolyalan
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.

Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.

Or if you look at it a different way, two different cabin crew did point to the captain that they thought the pax should be offloaded. The rest of the passengers MUST come first.

[GreatCircle]

Anyone in this state should have been washed before flight and bandaged! She must have been attracting flies! Disgusting behaviour and it should not have been accepted. As far as the groundstaff are concerned, they just want to be shot of the problem as quickly as possible, so all they care about is doing that the easiest way, which is pass them along the system (to the crew!).
I will never forget being met by the groundstaff at JNB who asked the Captain 'a transit passenger coming from Harare was drunk and punched a stewardess in flight. He's settled down now. You'd be willing to take him to LHR, wouldn't you?'. Err..... no, amidst hysterical laughter. You cannot expect the groundstaff to do the right thing- the easiest way to disentangle themselves is to pass the parcel straight to you! I would always go by the recommendation of the senior CC.

Agree with Rainboe. After all a package has to be appropriately dressed for carriage....

Seriously, on a wide body, say with 300 others, you have to think of them all and if this one, poor lady would cause such offense as to make their journey insufferable.

Without knowing all of the facts on this incident, it's hard to make a judgement call, but though it sounds harsh, my judgement based on the limited outline here, would be to off-load her...

Yes, I know I'll go to hell, probably in a handbasket.

[gregers]

If i as a non CC, but with some healthcare knowledge may comment:-
Personally i would have taken the decision to offload the poor woman, all the reasons above are valid but i would have based the decision on purey healthcare grounds. she should have recived proper healthcare BEFORE boarding, most airports have a medical facility of some sort and they should have been called in by the check in staff. i belive they lacked in their duty of care for the passenger. the Captain made his decision on his duty to the airline for meeting slot times and not incuring delays, the CC decision was based on their prime duty to ALL the passengers. the others for their health and wellbeing and the woman and son for her health and medical needs. she should have been offloaded and given PROPER medical care and put on a later flight. this woman had open puss sores and also would probably have had abcesses that had yet to erupt, these would have swollen and become rather painful as the aircraft de-pressurises. i belive that the CC made the right call, well done tuismile, hope i fly with you some day, I'll be in safe hands.

all the best.

Greg

Greg

[surely not]

Just to clarify the position of the ground staff.............

1. I doubt they were employed by the airline, they would almost certainly have been Handling Agents staff.
2. Assuming point 1 is correct, they would not make any decision of this sort without referring it to the airlines Station Manager because they have probably been hit with sanctimonious hindsightedness before.
3. If it happened abroad, or at a station where the airline went infrequently it is likely the Station Manager is a chasing agent and not a direct company employee. They also have limits to their decision making powers placed on them by the airlines.
4. The correct course of action would have been to discuss the situation with the crew, the airlines senior reps who have absolute say in this situation as stated by Cheeryguy, before presenting the passenger for boarding, and if time allows before checking them in but it is rare to have turnrounds of that length these days.
5. I am aware of incidents in the past where a handling agent has refused a passenger without referral to the crew only for the airline to tell the passenger 'if the handling agent had spoken with our crew they would have been accepted'. The Handling Agent was then expected to pick up the repatriation costs.

So next time you think that the ground staff are just fobbing the problem off onto you, please be aware that there might be good reason for their doing this................... not least how your airline has reacted in the past when they have.

I appreciate that the above shouldn't apply if it is the airlines own ground staff handling the flights, but then they have more authority.

[flybywire]

If it happened to me first I would discuss things privately with the travel companion (must have one if he/she is not self-sufficient or has a medical condition that requires help), check medical paperwork, and if in doubt call MedLink or whatever service your airline has subscribed to. (some airlines use FirstCall)
Our procedures state that if in doubt we must always ask for advice. At some bases we have a travel health advisor service partner and we can contact them if we cannot get through to MedLink.

I had a situation just before I stopped flying where a woman declared to be 34 weeks pregnant (didn't need her to say it to realise that she didn't have long to go) and had no medical certificate or authorization.Nothing. Having attended a stillbirth once before in my life I felt very nervous to take this lady, so we called medlink who suggested we contacted the local doctor (I think we were in Venice) who visited the lady and cleared her for the single flight to London.

Ok, we got delayed (the Captain has no right to say "let's go anyway" when we are on the ground and the purser is not happy to go for such a reason!) but at least we avoided a potentially difficult, dangerous situation and lots of distress to crew and pax alike! :ok:

I do not like to tempt fate!!!!!!!

Cheers

FBW:)

[angels]

What an interesting (and in some respects revolting!) thread.

Where does one draw the line at malodorous/obnoxious pax?

I got an upgrade to J once (on a trip to Honkers so the upgrade was most welcome!) because the guy sitting next to me not only stank to high heaven, but as soon as he got on he removed his shoes and socks -- his feet had an even worse stench -- and started clipping his toenails!

I had a word with a sympathetic CC and he said, 'There's loads of room in Club, go and sit there for a while and I'll sort you out another seat.'

He never came back. Much appreciated mate.

Do CC have the power/authority to tell people to stop clipping their toenails?

[Getoutofmygalley]

What an interesting (and in some respects revolting!) thread.
Where does one draw the line at malodorous/obnoxious pax?
I got an upgrade to J once (on a trip to Honkers so the upgrade was most welcome!) because the guy sitting next to me not only stank to high heaven, but as soon as he got on he removed his shoes and socks -- his feet had an even worse stench -- and started clipping his toenails!
I had a word with a sympathetic CC and he said, 'There's loads of room in Club, go and sit there for a while and I'll sort you out another seat.'
He never came back. Much appreciated mate.
Do CC have the power/authority to tell people to stop clipping their toenails?

Nail clippers are still prohibited are they not out of UK airports?

I have no qualms whatsoever telling pax not to do things that are 'unpleasant' for other pax and my crew to watch / smell. If a pax was trying to clip their toenails I would indeed tell them not to and if they complained, I would say that their are other pax onboard who are trying to eat and I don't think they would want to possibly ingest one of your clippings! :yuk: