Emirates. Decision on F/O Position.

[Relaxed Redback]

I am asking for help here. mainly from 3rd year F/Os !
I am presently making a decision to join or not to join ?

One huge attraction was F/O to Capt in 3 years . I have been assured this will Not be the case shortly .It really is affecting the way I am viewing the company and I would appreciate any candid answers at this point.
- Is the training good.

With no policy on Direct Entry Captains is it realistic to believe they will only take the 100 captains as previously mentioned in other posts .OR .;is there a pilot agreement in place .( It has been my experience that this can be the single biggest problem for morale and CRM in an airline );F/O s tend to leap to the next best possibility A.S.A.P.There is always a resentment factor as well.

Can you seriously get by on F/O pay living as a family of 4 in Dubai..on emirates f/o pay ?

Is inflation and cost of living really that bad ?

Can someboby please give me an honest idea of the average F/O take home paycheck; for Airbus and Boeing and is it pretty much the same pay on both types monthly .

Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post here.

Thank you to anyone that has the time.

[bus canuck]

Check your PMs

[145qrh]

F/o to Capt is already beyond three years for the Airbus, soon same for 777.

They will take, and been confirmed to me in person,they will take as many DEC's as they can get hold of. Normal commands are being delayed to facilitate DEC's.
The only agreement in place is for us to do as we are told or leave.
Many are taking this option.

DEC's were sold to us a short term measure, and no-one would be disadvantaged..yeah right....

If you join now you will be number 1650 (ish) on the list , we have 90 planes. Our fleet is scheduled to double in size by 2012. Some 6 years from now, I think if would be safe to assume that over the next few years DEC recruitment will continue at the same pace as it has over the last 3..ie same amount of DEC as upgrade....So if you join now your command will be, well ,how long is a very long piece of string?? 6 years would not be unrealistic,not likely to be shorter, probably longer.

As for the training department, well ,we some wonderful examiners.

F/o salary...well each to his own, you will be able to survive, just ,if you never go out, don't' enjoy any hobbies or pastimes and really enjoy noodles..:)

Dubai itself is not a pleasant place to reside. Main problems are traffic, inflation, weather, customer service , unfairly weighted system of law, just ask the poor Brit who is in Jail for knocking someone down on the Highway,,who wait for,,ran out in front of him ..WTF,, the list goes on..

My advice...Run like the wind..in the other direction..

[kingpost]

Relaxed Redback

If you're unemployed, then it is employment. If you're jumping from an airline because of the command and glitzy lights then youre making a big mistake. There is no policy because the planning is so bad, DEC empoyment has its advantages - only to the DEC and the company, not to those who seek a career.

If you want a career and you want to earn some money come to Cathay, they are recuiting at present and seem to have educated managers, unlike this other bunch.

[wingslow]

Sorry to bring bad news but it was nearly impossible 8 years ago to survive on a F/O's salary so it will be really hard with current inflation and taxes on the horizon.
Taking that on board if you don't have a job then at least this is 'a job' but just a job.........not a career any longer. Be especially careful when wife and kid's are involved. Not only costly but you will pay in ways you could not imagine. EK and Dubai are a facade.
Good luck which ever way you choose to go.

[lascarnoir]

I am scheduled for an interview on 26 of june, and i took some time reading this forum, but I dont understand why it is so difficult to live in Dubay for a FO (+wife and 2 childrens) with a free tax salary of 19660 AED and a free allocated villa ?

Thank you :confused:

[BYMONEK]

No, they are SOME of the real figures. House rental inflation is somewhat irrelevant when the Company provides you with the villa/apartment in the first place so disregard that. Those that have bought have, ironically, benefited from rental inflation as EK increased the accom. allowance by 10% this year and this is helping to pay off the mortgage. We received 7% pay rise this year and 8% last year in addition to 5 weeks profit share this year. Petrol did rise in one leap by 30% earlier this year but has remained steady so far and is still less than a quarter of the cost of fuel in UK. Most schools have increased their fees but EK allowance still covers the majority.You pay 10% but like the ERP,Provident fund and Family medical cover, not all it seems at first glance and will cost you in some way or another. Full details never given or explained until after you join.

Regarding Command, I wouldn't like to stick my neck out on that one. Latest newsletter explains the recent policy change in this area and although trying to placate the many that've been affected, finishes off by stating the Companies right to change the 'policy' as and when it sees fit. BEWARE! Command may be quicker than the industry average but the F/O's here are well experienced and many have relinquished the left seat to come here, something the newsletter fails to address. Perhaps there are some here now regretting that decision.

If the Managers planned ahead and kept to a valid policy, not only would THEY gain credibility, but so would the policies that they enforce. :(

[lascarnoir]

Thank you BYMONEK :)

[kingpost]

lascarnoir

To survive of an FO salary you have to be really careful, inflation is big and the increases are small. What background do you have and what airline are you coming from would help the sort of advise you could recieve. Please don't be fooled by the command prospects here, there are no FO's joining from major carriers due to the instability of the so called "policy".

Good luck and don't be foolish:ugh:

[readytocopy]

Command may be quicker than the industry average but the F/O's here are well experienced and many have relinquished the left seat to come here, something the newsletter fails to address. Perhaps there are some here now regretting that decision.
If the Managers planned ahead and kept to a valid policy, not only would THEY gain credibility, but so would the policies that they enforce. :(


And yet FO's are treated like ****. FO's come here with lots of experience and are grouped amongst the lowest common denomiator, the local cadet FO's. We have FO's from Air Canada, UAL, AA with thousands of hours of experience and yet have to put up with this horse ****....Do you want flaps 1...do you want it now....how about now, now, how about now, OK now....NO how about fcuk off and I'll tell you when I god damn want the flaps.

[411A]

>>Command may be quicker than the industry average but the F/O's here are well experienced and many have relinquished the left seat to come here, something the newsletter fails to address.<<

What the newsletter should have addressed is that those folks who left Commands to come to EK (as co-pilots) were as dumb as a rock.
One then wonders, are they really now suitable for a Command?:=

[mini cooper]

lascarnoir - I think you say you are in France. If you have a property in France remember that you will still have to pay those bills back in France , if you rent it out that may be fine but if you don't rent it out then you will stuggle. Bottom line is that if you come to Dubai and sell up everything to come here, you will be able to live the Dubai life ie have nice car, have golf club membership, go out lots, let the kids go for riding and skiing lessons and generally you will enjoy life and probably will not save anything. If you are sensible and keep property in your home country you will not have a lot of money spare and life will be more of a struggle when everyone else is doing the things that you cannot afford to.
Dubai is NOT a real life it is a facard. It looks great from the outside but believe me that when you talk to people that have been here longer than I have (5yrs+) they ALL say it is FALSE.
THINK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU COME BECAUSE ONCE HERE IT MAY NOT BE ALL THAT YOU DREAM IT COULD BE - BOTH DUBAI AND MORE IMPORTANTLY EMIRATES.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.:=

[mini cooper]

411A - as ever you comments are neither helpful or amusing. It's a pity that you feel that you are contributing something to this thread and that you feel people would value your opinion - an opinion that seems to encompass almost everything on PPRUNE...........
If you haven't got anything constructive to say then for goodness sake keep your gob shut, we have too much global warming already without you adding to it with your pontifications!!!
:E

[Relaxed Redback]

Thank you for the responses and the PMS particularly.

As far as the money goes do I understand correctly?

From your pay you will have deducted:-

Family health leve .It is only free for yourself.
30000DhS over 4 years to cover the furniture if you take the furnished option.???
5% to a provident fund .
Car Loan


Is there anything else to consider ?

I believe you get overtime over 78 hrs .What sort of hours are the f/os averaging and is there a difference between types?

Thanks again

[ironbutt57]

wazzamatter mini cooper...411A strike a nerve? does the shoe fit? all opinions should be welcome here, as long as they are not racist, or insulting one's culture, or religion..maybe some dont necessarily like some posts..but why bite back?? :confused: :rolleyes:

[montencee]

What a novel idea. Supporting 411A that is.

Don't think it'll catch on though.

[BusyB]

Ironbutt,
:= I seem to remember you biting when comments have been made about GF.

[Relaxed Redback]

Thank you for the responses and the PMS particularly.
As far as the money goes do I understand correctly?
From your pay you will have deducted:-
Family health leve .It is only free for yourself.
30000DhS over 4 years to cover the furniture if you take the furnished option.???
5% to a provident fund .
Car Loan
Is there anything else to consider ?
I believe you get overtime over 78 hrs .What sort of hours are the f/os averaging and is there a difference between types?
Thanks again
CAN ANYONE HERE HELP ?

[bus canuck]

From your pay you will have deducted:-
Family health leve .It is only free for yourself.
Health is not much for the family. About 200 dhs/month.
30000DhS over 4 years to cover the furniture if you take the furnished option.???
Not quite. They either give you some furnature, or they give you 30, 000 dhs to buy your own. There's no deduction.
5% to a provident fund .
That's right. You put in 5% and they put in 12%.
Car Loan
Up to you, but it's interest free up to 55, 000 dhs paid back over 4 years. Most guys take 'free' money.
Is there anything else to consider ?
Just the "Pilot's Club" membership which is 100 dhs/month. A good deal.
I believe you get overtime over 78 hrs .What sort of hours are the f/os averaging and is there a difference between types?
78 hours is based on a 31 day month. Keep in mind you do not get paid for training, reserve or vacation.
The maximum legal amount you can fly is 900 hours/year. If you're on the 340, you did more than that last year and are doing 900 this year. You will have O/T shoved down your throat whether you want it or not. If you're 330, you're very smart and you fly less. It's also less on the 777, but they may be catching up. The O/T is not that generous and most guys I know would rather have the time off, but you don't get the choice.
Hope this helps.

[Relaxed Redback]

Bus thank you very much .The furniture deal was a little confusing...?
:)

[millerscourt]

neilb767 What is all this you are saying about GF being work friendly and pilots they stay by choice?

Looking at your previous posts you appear to have been trying to leave GF for ages.You even sent me a PM asking about joining SQ as a F/O which I advised against as there is no clearly defined open upgrade policy.

[KeepRecovering]

Compared to the UK, I am much better off. I'd love to know why people can't survive on a FOs salary out here. I suspect that they are living it up a little more than they did in the own country before moving. With most things provided for I fail to see how the inflation figures can be applied as a whole to the individuals. Ok so food/petrol and beer has gone up in price but I don't see it hurting me too much.

I am definately better off than I was in UK ..period! I spend more because I live better, eat & drink out more, play more expensive golf, participate in more events. Sure, Dubai isn't cheap in these departments, but you have a choice.
One thing to remember, the salary is tax-free, overtime is tax-free. What does this mean to me? well in UK I'd be paying 51% tax on all overtime so a UK carrier would have to at least double my overtime payments for a start!

MY advice, look at the package and work it out for yourself, pay the place a visit, don't listen to all the wingers on Pprune ('cos by god there are plenty) for every winger there's one who is more than happy.

Good luck.


p.s. The overtime/too tired/don't want to do it saga. Easy solution, if you don't want to do it then go sick on grounds of fatigue/tiredness. I have and have never been called up for it. Simple!

[Andu]

eklawyer says:many at EK feel we are trying our best to reproduce those circumstances.Regrettably, that is an all too accurate observation.

[brokenenglish]

p.s. The overtime/too tired/don't want to do it saga. Easy solution, if you don't want to do it then go sick on grounds of fatigue/tiredness. I have and have never been called up for it. Simple!

Some years ago and after 3 years in the company an EK F/O happily went for his pre command interview. Unhappily in the course of the interview he was told that as he had taken more than his quota of sick days in the past few months he was to be punished by having his upgrade training delayed by 12 months.

Think on, lad.

p.s. there is a further unhappy sequel to this story but out of consideration I won't expand on that here.

[KeepRecovering]

Funny, wasn't raised at my interview and I was never very good at keeping my head down. Would agree though its a Captains airline.

Don't suppose you know what the quota figure is do you Lad?

[411A]

>>Would agree though its a Captains airline.<<

As it SHOULD be, without a doubt.
One wonders, when will the ah... underachievers, in the RHS ever wake up to this really simple fact of life?

First Officers, a dime a dozen.
Always have been, most likely, always will be.

Oh, I can hear it now...'we left Commands to come here, so now we should be promoted' yet all the while many do nothing but complain.

Up the ante for DEC's, and keep these guys where they truly belong...seems to be the modus operande at EK.

Not a bad plan, all things considered.:D

[harry the cod]

I know it's tempting Gentlemen, but DON'T!

Our beloved 'career Captain' spends his retirement fishing on pprune so best ignore him. Most do. :bored:

Harry

[Marooned]

Keep Recovering...

Out of interest, do you have kids, a mortgage? Eating out and playing golf are great if you are single but with a family and the cost of living in Dubai it is not that easy.

I would also suggest that most of us came here not merely to 'survive' financially but to somehow progress.

[KeepRecovering]

Marooned,

All of the above and progressing fine.

((Send the wife out to work mate. 2 benefits 1) A little extra cash 2) Keeps em out of the shops) God I hope my wife never reads this!)

[yardman]

4HP,
I know it's more or less a free world, but could you please, please consider banning that geezer 411A for being such a wind up merchant. I know he has nothing better to do, but what he has to say has little or no purpose except to stir the pot. I don't think anyone would miss him, do you?
Yardman

[Oblaaspop]

Guy's, don't take the bait, 411A is just bored and is trying to get a reaction from the F/O's.

Still, I reckon he must have been a right C U Next Tuesday to fly with. He was probably known as 'Captain Thrush' (an irritating ****):oh:

[Marooned]

KR,

Good on you. Wife to work wasn't an option... nice idea though.

Fact is a qualified F/O with the experience EK holds can earn +3000K in the UK after tax.

The question is why come to EK when a shot at a command is so far away and at the whim of such a bunch of charlatans?

[Oblaaspop]

Marooned, you are absolutely correct. That is precicely what I was netting back in the UK.

Here however, I am netting about 3400quid (using an average exchange rate before any overtime which can net me up to another 1000 quid). If I chose to take the housing allowance I would bring in about another 1500 quid a month taking it up to about 5 grand a month (before provident fund deduction).

So making direct comparisons, here I could possibly have roughly 5 grand a month (B4 overtime) to live on as an F/O out of which mortgage and other life deductions would have to come, or 3 grand a month with exactly the same deductions in the UK.

Now, I'm no mathmetician but I recon I'm about 2k per month better off here than I was in the UK???

Before someone spouts off about Dubai being the most expensive city in the known Universe, the fact is the 'Big Mac' scale (an interantionally recognised econimoc tool) using a 'basket' of 200 products and services (including the cost of Big Mac's) puts London as being the 4th most epensive city in the world with Dubai coming in close behind as the 72nd most expensive... FACT not emotion!!!

All I know is, I was on the 'bread line' in the UK on a salary 3 times the national average and a disposable income of 2 pounds 64p at the end of the month. But in Dubai I'm not, I'm sorry to be the barer of bad news to the doom merchants, but I am better off. (If you choose to keep a house with mortgage in the UK, thats your descision - although I'd find it hard to believe you guy's don't receive rental income from that).

I have a great lifestyle here socially (although not enough days off), with golf (not as often as I'd like), sailing, dune bashing etc, and I still have change enough to take the family out a couple of times a week for a meal! Something I could only dream of doing in the UK, and yes I have been here for more than a couple of years now, so do feel at least partially knowlegable about the subject matter.

The airline though, now thats a different matter!:ugh:

Nuff said.

[Marooned]

Oblaas aka KR...

The accomodation allowance is a 'right', not a perk. Where else can you live if you come here? Unless you are willing and have the capital to speculate the 1500 stays with EK not in your account.

So, your now willing to work 90 hrs/month with overtime for the extra grand (not guarenteed) and you can still make it around the golf course, go out and look after your family?

You don't have to be a mathematician to figure out that you either work like a dog (if indeed you have the choice) or your income will not afford the lifestyle you portray...FACT.

[brokenenglish]

Funny, wasn't raised at my interview and I was never very good at keeping my head down. Would agree though its a Captains airline.

Don't suppose you know what the quota figure is do you Lad?


My guess is that the quota figure is a subjective value based on how high and how often your head goes up. And you say that this wasn't discussed at your interview? What were they thinking of?

Would agree that DXB beats the UK on cost of living and income. As long as the rental trap and the American schools are avoided.

But in the interests of balanced reporting I don't think that Oblaaspop will make £1000 in overtime in many months of the year. He would need to do slightly more than 100 hours in the month to achieve that amount.

And just to be clear a joining F/O would start on £2870 a month at todays exchange rate. And the figure of £1500 accomodation allowance is slightly fat as well. And also necessitates that you will take a drop in quality of accomodation if you move out of a company villa.

As usual its not as bad as many say and its not as good as some of the others say. But I have noticed that some of the old cup half full group have recently joined the cup half empty division.

[Oblaaspop]

Indeed at todays exchange rate (7dhs/pound) a new joiner will be on slightly less than 3k/month, however you will notice that I mentioned an average exchange rate (lets say 6.5dhs/pound) read it properly guys!!

Also you will have noticed that I never included overtime in the 5k figure, I merely stated that it was POSSIBLE to earn UPTO an extra 1k.

The FACT is if you CHOOSE to move out of company accom you WILL get about 9500dhs/month (around 1500 quid at an AVERAGE exchange rate) I realise that is our RIGHT which is why the company gives it to us!!!!. Out of interest, which British airline gives you an accomodation allowance to pay your UK mortgage? This figure MUST be included when you look at disposable income!

Even if you choose to stay in company accom, the equasion remains the same (if not better as the company pay's all leccy/water and gas bills etc), as you don't have any mortgage/rent to pay.

Guys, please try to understand what I'm saying, its perfectly simple (apparently not simple enough for some it would seem):ugh:

And don't shoot the messenger, I just state the facts as I see them, and made the point that I am better off here than in the UK FACT!!!!!

[uplock]

Just some more number crunching for you, over the past 5 years facts from Historical Currency Rates (http://www.oanda.com/convert/fxhistory)


Conversion Table: AED to GBP (Interbank rate)
13.06.2001 0.19860
18.06.2006 0.14720
High: 0.19860
Low: 0.14000

Conversion Table: AED to AUD (Interbank rate)
03.04.2001 0.57030
18.06.2006 0.36930
High: 0.57030
Low: 0.34110


Conversion Table: AED to EUR (Interbank rate)
12.02.2001 0.29440
18.06.2006 0.21550

Conversion Table: AED to USD (Interbank rate)
12.02.2001 0.27230
18.06.2006 0.27240
High: 0.27450
Low: 0.27150

http://www.henricohigh1979.com/images/SadFace.jpg

[Marooned]

Obs,

Captains rarely take home 5K a month, I know!!! In fact you should know as you're profiled as a Captain. So an F/O can? Who?

Of course UK airlines don't have to pay an accomodation allowance for UK pilots to live in the UK... EK have to provide accomodation or the allowance for expatriot pilots to move to the Middle East in the first place... I just don't accept your argument that it is part of the 'pay' or part of your disposable income rather than it is a prerequisite of the 'Ts & Cs'.

You are misrepresenting the situation with simplistic figures from the vantage point of a Captain that virtually no F/O on the line can acheive. Simple... it is not.

[ernestkgann]

It only counts as disposable income if I can take it back when I go home. Otherwise it's just more cash in the sheikh's dish dash.
If I take the allowance and save some then it's disposable, if I pay off a mortgage at home while the sheikhs pay for accom then it's disposable, if I buy a house/villa and I achieve capital gain or I pay off the mortgage and recover my deposit and the allowance then it's disposable income.
Otherwise if I am given a place to stay while I stay as a guest in these parts then it makes no difference to my bottom line.

[brokenenglish]

Obp

Todays exchange rate is 6.85. In the last twelve months it has been closer to 7.0 than 6.5 apart from one short blip down to 6.35. Average over the last 12 months? How about 6.85.

Financial institutes predict a gentle slide towards the other side of 7.0 over the next six months.

To say that its possible to get £1000 a month in overtime compares with saying that I might win the lottery tomorrow. But yes it is possible. But I suspect that your hours for June will give you precisely null pounds (and not much time on the golf course either).

EKG has covered the point that I was going to make about the accomodation allowance.

My impression is that you are not stating facts but distorting semi facts to support your version of life at EK. Also known as spin.

[MR8]

Being single, I can save quite a lot of money every month, but then again I'm living on crewfood and Baracuda-beers.. :}

If you do have a family, it will be very difficult to save a decent amount of money (comparing to West-European countries, no facts or figures, just personal observations which might be wrong..)

+ Schooling is for free in Europe, EK pays about 90%
+ Pre-school (nursery) is free in Europe, about 1000Dhs/month in DXB, not paid by EK
+ Wife and kids want to go home to visit family (tickets & stay in Europe needs to be paid)
+ Pension fund is simply pathetic in EK
+ No social security in EK
+ Anyone thought about health insurance AFTER you leave EK to go back to Europe, you won't be covered anymore, so extra expenses again
+ Eating out is affordable thanks to EPC (Pilots initiative)
+ Health clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ Beach clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ You have to dress up a house or apartment, but can be evicted anytime
+ Buying in DXB is way to expensive now (correction expected)
+ ...

Ok guys, these are just a few personal thoughts in between games after a few G&T's, I stand to be corrected as usual...

MR8

[145qrh]

Some folks at EK put positive spin on everything...up to them, makes moving to Dubai seem like a good move...

I would need to save about one third ,roughly, of my income here to get a pension ..(final salary, 1/50th's) the same as the one I left behind...DOH! :ugh: Wont make that mistake again..


People forget about the real world when they move to the sandpit, one day we will have to go back, some of us sooner rather than later....but you have to have a fair wedge of cash in the bank to be ready for it when it happens...

F/os' wages.....dont even come close, and there is no way I can save a tenth, never mind a third of my salary...

Dont want to stick up for oblapop , but a grand is 22hrs of OT, not that hard to get, if you had a choice.:)

[watertheflowers]

Dont want to stick up for oblapop , but a grand is 22hrs of OT, not that hard to get, if you had a choice.:)

..........not that hard to get 22 hrs of OT.

Except in a month with leave, sep, sim etc. Or when coming up on 900 hours FT.

Its possible in maybe 5 months of the year, but say goodbye to your life in those months.

Know somebody up on 900 hours and between July and December he cannot do any overtime at all unless he takes two complete months off. This because of the 900 hour rule. Sure, he's been raking it in so far this year. No life to speak of though. And no more overtime money until 2007.

Would be fairly happy with 82-87 hours a month. But the company doesn't work like that. They work our asses off up to 900 hours and then stick us on sim support when we run out of hours.

[uplock]

EKLAWYER fact is the company still are rostering guys for simm support. Flew with 2 First officers over the past 2 weeks who were not happy little chappies having done the 100 % productivity thing with the company, gone over 900 hrs been rosterd the following month off then doing simm support.

Do not expect any back up from the guys in our Flight Safety when this topic is brought to there attention as the response will be "we try not to roster you for simm support..." Spinless back up.

The whole purpose when we have gone over the 900 hrs is to give you a month off so you rest and recover not to prop up simm support sessions.

Problem is that it is usually the F.O.s and they dont have the support of the company so unless they have big brass ones the practise will continue despite what has been written on the Pothole.

The Medical Department will support you with days off when others dont.

[Oblaaspop]

Chaps, I don't want to get drawn into an argument about the pro's and con's of company policy etc - we would be here for ever moaning about it, lets just agree that 98% of company policy sucks as far as the F/O's and their families are concerned!

But just to clarify a couple of points:

1. I am an F/O (I started using 'Oblaaspop' 6 years ago when I was a skipper and couldn't be bothered to change the profile! sorry)

2. The entire point of my post is definately not to BIG UP Emirates (god forbid!), but to simply state that I am considerably better off here than where I was in the UK.

3. You could in theory take the housing allowance, an live in a tent (with aircon) or your mates garden shed, in which case that money (1500 squid) would be yours, for you to dispose of as you wish...True?

4. Admitedly, the allowance will not cover all your mortgage/bills (probably only 60-70%), however when you sell the house (assuming it hasn't fallen over) you will have 60-70% or more equity than you would have had if it just came out of your own pocket - and that equity can be taken with you - its YOURS not the Sheiks.

5. In a previous post someone (I forgot who - sorry), stated that a new joiner would start on £2860 at todays exchange rate (7 ish), but failed to mention the exchange rate protection (which is there to go some way towards protecting against high rates) which would give about another £200 on top. (I'm sure you just forgot to mention it, so I thought I would:ok: )

6. I still come up with a figure of just under £5k (with the accom allowane)- help me out peeps what have I missed?

Finally, dont have a pop at a guy for stating facts and figures, unless you are prepared to provide PRECISE facts and figures to counter the argument and not just vague emotionally charged heresay.

Taking cover!!!

[max AB]

Oblaaspop, xrate protection is based on rolling rates from when you join the company. Someone joining today doesn't get it today. They may get it later if the rate moves against them, over time it can disappear all together. Another little known fact is that not all nationalities actually get it.

[formerekdriver]

OK lets state the facts Oblaaspop,

If you worked in the UK doing the same type of work for VS or BA you would be getting 4000 GBP Take Home and have more days off.

You would definetly be treated with a lot more respect.

You could even go onto 50% or 75% rosters and pay, which is not an option at EK.

I would not compare British Middland with EK.

For that matter I will not even compare Ryanair, Easy Jet, Jet 2 that some of our colleagues have joined over the last 18 months.

The fact that the Salary is Tax Free does not realy matter as all that counts is how much you take home.

EK pays F Ohs around 3000 GBP.

The accomodation allowance should no be included as most of us who moved to Dubai kept our houses, and most of us chose to keep one of our properties vacant as we needed a place to call home.

Even if you do rent your property out, some months of the year it remains vacant so you do have costs associated with non Dubai property.

The EK schooling allowance is good, although I must admit that I did not have the choice of sending my kids to a public school in Dubai (Not that I would), but back in the UK and any where you come from you have that choice. Public schooling is very good in a lot of places around the world.

Schools in Dubai are good though, we had no problem with JESS.

I would not include over time, because again at VS and BA that changes the salary significantly. People do not join an airline to do over time. If they care about money, they go on contract and get paid loads...

Allowances around the world have been dropping at EK, I remember doing LGWs for 70 quid and when I left they where down to 55 GBP.

It seems that the other airlines have not yet encountered deflation around the world.

All reputable airlines in the UK and in Europe for that matter have a private pension, and they all have private health insurance for their pilots and their families.

The EK Clinic is nothing more than the GP we have in the UK, and I get the same standard of service.

All reputable airlines in Europe allow the use of Jump Seat priviledges, and they allow their employees to be upgraded to a higher class without asking the permision of the Head of State and his mother.

I can live in France and commute to the UK to work, and on my days off I do not have to to ask for permission from fleet management to leave.

I can go into parks with my children with their bicycles as it is allowed, unlike Dubai.

The beaches both in the UK, and in France do not belong to a Sheikh, and I can use them without an EPC card...

My houses in the UK, and in France do not cost 60-70% of what they cost when I bought them.

They cost 200 % more over the last 5 years, and they will continue to grow. This in itself is an extra amount of money that I have and I would not have at EK.

I am not worried about how many thousands of new houses will come on the market, nor am I worried about what George will do in the region, or how many subcontinent people decide to move to Dubai.

More importantly my life does not revolve around Emirates, as I do not live in a very nice company labour camp, and I do not constantly worry about what the new cost neutral policy is going to be.

Emirates policies are an extension of the Emirati view on expatriate workers. We are all "labourers" with a beautification policy to make us believe that we where not. We lived in very nice labour camps, got picked up by company transport, where given a liquor licence and a pilot's club card so that the company could keep an eye on our social life, and where forced to spend our money back in the Dubai Economy as leaving Dubai on short breaks required permission from fleet management, and seat availability which did not exist.

As the Master Card advert goes, living in Europe 3000 Euros, pay taxes
50% of the salary, happiness of self and family priceless...

Keep Discovering....

I realy do hope that EK sorts itself out, as I have good friends there who are top quality and deserve a lot more than what they are getting, and they deserve a better treatment than what EK is giving them. The quality and talent of flight deck crews that EK is blessed with, is unfortunately not appreciated by management, and they realy do not deserve the people they have working for them.

I would not be touching EK at present, unless I was jobless, homeless, or looking for a step on a bigger aircraft as a DEC and then hapily move one to less sandy pastures...

[Watchdog]

Formerekdriver,

"Beaches" in the UK? Very funny! :D

[EK Pilot]

http://www.swcp.org.uk/tour/img/img30049.jpg

Here's one. They don't take that long to find you know, England being an Island an all that. Some pebbly, some sandy, but they are there. You must be an Ozmate, Watchdog! But if you are having difficulty finding a British beach, try here: http://www.goodbeachguide.co.uk/

[Watchdog]

EKPilot,
yep you picked me outa the line up -all I have seen here in the mother country is mud so far.
This is kinda what I was referring to :ok:
http://www.pbase.com/koca69/image/40416260

(that's me with the beard) :E

[Khaosai]

Jan 06 payscale for an F/O at virgin shows a basic of 44 624. You are then contracted to fly 750 hours at an hourly rate for an F/O of 13.66 which equates to a further 10 245. Basic plus variable equals 54 869. That comes to a gross of 4573 per month.

Shanghai allowance comparison: EK 30 hr layover 82 USD. VS 48 hr layover 285 USD which is approx 2.2 times more per 24hr period.

I have enjoyed working for both airlines but have definately saved more money each month by coming to EK. Financially for me it was the right move and will do until something which pays better comes along.

Rgds.

[Enildoc]

EK Pilot

Call that a beach?;)

[CAYNINE]

RR check PM

[sayed777]

I was interested in some info from the EK employed pilots, regarding the fast track system if there is any yet in place with all the DEC being hired.... If any one of u have got info about the required hours to qualify for fast track and also if you do not qualify at the time of joining, can one build his total towards fast track if he/she has any previous command experience.. Thanks.. CHEERS...:rolleyes:

[EK Pilot]

Fast Track?? With all the aircraft deliveries delayed now, no one is moving anywhere.

[sayed777]

Thanks EK pilot, Do understand with the aircafts getting delayed coming in there wont be any movement,... But do u have any idea on the requirements on fast track or accelerated command. The latest info i got was that u need to have 8000 hrs tt, and 2500 command time to be eligible for fast track. My query is can one built time while he is flying online with EK if he does not meet the 8000tt criteria. eg he has got 7600 tt. Can he fly the other 400 hrs with EK and be elligible for command.

[MR8]

Yep, possible..

But the official policy still states that 3 year guys will have priority over fast tracks, so you'll have to wait anyhow...

Then again, seeing the recent developments in upgrade policy, who knows?? It's just a big gamble, so don't let any upgrade lure you to EK, because conditions and requirements change overnight.

MR8

[mensaboy]

NO you are not allowed to build time once with EK. What you come with is what you maintain with respect to accelerated commands. The whole accelerated command opportunity will likely not be of benefit to those who qualify, in the future. That is just my opinion, based on what has been told to me by those apparently 'in the know' regarding the latest uproar over mostly accelerated guys doing the transition course to the 777. No slag intended on the accelerated guys at all, just that this latest ammendated/revised/abused policy has caused another round of grief to every single airbus F/O and it has become quickly apparent to management.

Policy states that qualified F/O's will be first choice for upgrades, although i agree this has not always been the case. But as i see it, if you were to join today with the hopes of accelerated command it likely won't happen except in exceptional cases, as by the time you qualify there will be many non-accelerated F/O's who will have qualified in the next year and a half. This is not the case on the 777 at present, it is easily the case on the Airbus, but on both types will easily be the case within the next year to year and a half.

[yardman]

Mensaboy,
With all due respect, they recently changed the policy. You are in fact allowed to count your time at EK towards meeting the Accelerated Command requirements. I read it myself (can't remember where though:( ) and I know at least one person who was short a few hundred hours total time, and who now qualifies. In fact, he's in the command programme as we speak.

[sayed777]

Mensaboy. Thanks a lot for your post, Things are more clear. Although one can built time with EK but the restriction of policy where one should be employed with EK for 12 months and should clear all progress checks in first attempt still stands. Would u please confirm that. Or is it now that when u make the mark of 800tt u directly go for upgrade with no time limit on period served with EK. Could u please shine some light on this area if u have the info. CHEERS...

[MR8]

Ok, here we go..

You can build towards your requirements while flying EK (as mensaboy pointed out, it used to be different, but changed about 2 months ago)

The time criteria still stand though, so that's 18 months in the company for a accelerated.

Now the little loophole they created unofficially: (and I know it sounds complicated)

According to the FOM, at 10.000TT (with the needed previous command time) you are ok for a DEC position. SO if you reach the 10000hrs in the book, you don't have to wait for your 18 months anymore. Of course, EK is now advertising for DEC's with 8000TT, so únoficially' you will get to the criteria when you have 8000TT. The only difference in the unofficial policy is that for DEC you need 3000hrs command on +55t, for accelerated you need 2000 of those hours. (Done within 12 months prior to joining EK)

So things are a bit messed up here, no one really knows anymore what the criteria are since EK is not folowing the published career path as published in the FOM anymore.

Same for the order of upgrades, officially this is:

1. 6000TT and 3 years in EK

If no available or eligible F/O's that meet 1:

2. 8000TT and 1.5 years in EK and 2000hrs command on +55t (accelerated criteria)

If no available or eligible F/O's that meet 2:

3. 10000TT and 3000hrs command on +55t (DEC criteria)


Again, and I can't stress this enough, this is the official policy as published in the FOM, but since about 1 month, EK upgrades almost ad hoc. On Airbus, lots of guys with case 1 waiting, but being bypassed by guys in case 2, AGAINST THE FOM...


MR8

[Rabbitwear]

You are correct Mr8 but also case 3 is going on the 777 as well as the case 2 why do you not mention them.
As well as the fact a large number of DECs has been found and is going to delay some fast tracks................

[sayed777]

Thanks MR8.. Your info is appreciated. I m confused though. I have got colleagues flying for EK and some of them agree with the policy u stated where as some of them are not aware of it. Infact one of them stated u need to join EK with 8000tt. He says there is no writtten policy to this effect. The reason i m so eager to know this info is because i m due for an interview and i have got 7500 tt and 2600 command time. I dont know which boat i m sailing in. Ha Ha ha:O Cheers MR8 . U r a good man.

[MR8]

The policy stated in the FOM is probably as your friend claims.
End 2005, EK published FCI 2005-131, valid as from 1 Jan 2006.
ACCELERATED COMMAND CRITERIA – ON SAME TYPE
The criteria as listed in the Operations Manual – Part A remains unchanged; however, the minimum 8000
hours total time will now be amended to include flying hours experienced in Emirates.
Again, this is the policy today, it might be different tomorrow and will probably change again next week or so... EK management has no long term view and only short term solutions, with the known results.
MR8

[sayed777]

Thanks MR8 , your reaponse is greatly appreciated.

[ShockWave]

The best you can do, is keep an open mind. What ever the policy it will change as history has proven. For the better or worse?? EK and the UAE is a gamble for expats, make an informed decision and try to sift out the good info from the bad. DEC's are a cotentious issue with all F/Os in any airline.
One thing is sure about all pilots we are trained to complain about things that upset us and feel that is our god given right to fix it, unfortunately we are not trained how to turn it of and go with the flow. If you want to survive the Gulf you will need this skill.
If EK had secure contracts, unions fighting for our rights and demands it could not survive the rapid expansion that drives it. You just have to suck it in and keep your head down. When you have had enough of the crappp you just move on. simple really.
Commands will come to all those who can survive and are good enough. Many high hour expat F/Os have failed command upgrades for good reasons, there is a lot to learn with such a vast network of destinations and you need to have your sh_t sorted out.
Three years or four years is not long at all, and certainly not worth getting stressed out over in my opinion. Especially if you are getting close to this time in EK, Relax guys, there will be more than enough stress comming your way soon, don't blow the opportunities that will be presented to you.
:ok:

[Enildoc]

Shockwave

That has to be the most balanced post I have read for a long, long time.

I doubt anyone from either end of the spectrum could argue with that.

[ShockWave]

Thanks mate.
If I could remember what I'd been drinking I would recommend it to everyone. :rolleyes:
This whole F/O upgrade thing is tragically important to those involved but once it is over and you become a Captain, it's amaizing how quickly you forget.
Consiquently the same old anxiety issues arise over and over again with each new batch of F/Os. If you step back in time with Prune you can read almost identical threads occuring every few months for the past 6 years or so. The good point is that almost all of those who complained (rightfully so) then are now Widebody Captains flying great aircraft in a challenging, diversified environment. That means a great deal to me, I enjoy my job, and overall my family and I still enjoy Dubai. Otherwise we would not still be here.
Those of you who may be thinking of comming here must realise that nothing is guaranteed, but then you have to admit that no matter how strong your union, or westernized your present airline is, unfortunately they can not guarantee anything either.
Any F/O working here has one of the highest probabillities of upgrading to a wide body command in a realistically short time than any other place on the planet that I am aware of.
It took me 16 years with other airlines and 3 1/2 with EK, it is worth the waite in my opinion. Nothing quite like turning up to work and taking a big jet out for a cruize!

[Muttley Crew]

...they recently changed the policy. You are in fact allowed to count your time at EK towards meeting the Accelerated Command requirements......and I know at least one person who was short a few hundred hours total time, and who now qualifies.Let me get this straight:

You come to EK with a lot of command time under your belt but not enough total time for Accel. Command.

So you sit in the RHS as FO for 6-9 months until you have built up more time as a First Officer, so that your previous command time will enable you to be promoted to Captain faster than otherwise????

And this makes sense? Lucky I'm not in management (or am I???) because I could never dream up such a dunder-headed, fcuked-up concept as that no matter how long I warmed a desk...

Anyway I'm still not sure why everyone is so happy with the Accel. program but so against the DEC program. Same end result as far as I'm concerned. Qualified FOs being leap-frogged. The same guys who complain bitterly about DECs are happy to jump ahead via Accelerated Command. Smacks of hypocrisy.
Many high hour expat F/Os have failed command upgrades for good reasonsAgree with most of what you say but what is your idea of "many"? This is not the word on the street as I know it, myself.

[sayed777]

Thanks mate, U have spoken the truth. I guess we all konow what we want the only challenge is how long we are willing to wait for it.