Pre-Impact survial

[RotaryRat]

Hi guys,

I'm curious if anyone has any knowledge on the best way to brace yourself leading up to a hard vertical crash landing.

I've met a small number of guys that have sustained back problems due to crashes compressing the spinal column, obviously due to the high impact energies sustained from a high vertical R.O.D.

Is there a way in which to alter your posture in the event of such an emergency to best survive it?

[paco]

I'm not sure, but I believe the RAF did a study many moons ago. Might be worth asking them. Boscombe Down might be a good place to start.

phil

[Revolutionary]

It may not apply to a crash with a big vertical component, but in a horizontal crash, such as a car accident, it pays to relax all muscles before impact. Arm and leg fractures are often the result of people bracing themselves. One reason why drunks often escape serious harm in a crash -their limbs are limp.

[farmpilot]

I asked my instructor the very same question a few days ago. Should it not be part of our brief to pax, like in fixed wing?

Do we not have a duty of care to them and when it all goes wrong we tend to be a bit busy to give advice......

[996]

Some aircraft have inherrent design features for absorbing a certain amount of vertical impact. I think the last thing you would be concenrned about is bracing yourself. It's a natural reflex in the end. From those who have been there I have been told that once you realise you are going down then accept it - the rest is a bonus. It is not the vertical component that causes the main problem but the forward momentum.

[farmpilot]

So would it not make sense to brace like in a fixed wing?

[gadgetguru]

It may not apply to a crash with a big vertical component, but in a horizontal crash, such as a car accident, it pays to relax all muscles before impact.

easier said than done - particularly with the adrenaline pumping with the body reflexing because the brain has seen what's coming & is going bonkers.

you can see it happening, you realise how this might turn out, how will you fare...barely microseconds to take hold of the situation, decide & react accordingly....sphincter is doing 10 to the dozen;
5 cents / 50 cents / 5 cents / 50 cents.

"oh yes - & do try to relax" :sad:

thankyou dr. do-right.
spoken as always from the comfort of a big chair behind your desk, on terra firma & not strapped to a gravity-succomed, power-plant-deficient rotary-craft, plummetting to earth with only moments of an uncertain variety of thoughts pummelling your conciousness; am i going to walk away from this, am I going to crawl away from this, am I ever going to walk again, am I going to make it out of here alive, to childhood memories, loved ones & who knows what else.

sure I'll relax, when I am back home giving my wife & kids an extra hug & spending every breathing second living my life to the fullest.

i don't know that I am capable of over-riding the bodies basic desire to survive, flight or fight, will still result in an amount of stress/anxiety, & relaxation is possibly only going to be an after effect of a successful outcome.

[Revolutionary]

Well, gadgetguru, you can pooh-pooh my suggestion all you want but from a purely physiological perspective, relaxing your limbs is the thing to do. Have you ever been in a helicopter crash? I have.
strapped to a gravity-succomed, power-plant-deficient rotary-craft, plummetting to earth with only moments of an uncertain variety of thoughts pummelling your conciousness; am i going to walk away from this, am I going to crawl away from this, am I ever going to walk again, am I going to make it out of here alive, to childhood memories, loved ones & who knows what else.

What kind of pathos is that? I can assure you that you will not have time to have all those thoughts 'pummeling' through your head as you go down. What kind of helicopter do you fly that is 'gravity-succomed'?
If you can learn to remember to lower the collective in case of an engine failure, then maybe you can try to remember this bit of information when a crash is imminent. Having said that, the issue is somewhat academic as most helicopters impact the ground at a high vertical rate rather than a horizontal rate, and learning to relax the sphincter muscle will not make any difference except perhaps to the color of your pants. Good crash-attenuating seats will help you more than anything else.

[bladewashout]

Not a heli crash, but on Thursday evening on a single track road, a teenager with three of his mates in the car came round a corner towards me at about 60mph when he should have been at 20, and had no hope of stopping before he hit my car. Fortunately I had a Land Cruiser and he had a Ford Escort, the result was fairly predictable: his car written off, the land-cruiser showing scars but still fully driveable after the event. I love that car!
However in the 1 to 2 seconds I had after stopping my own car and with nothing else to do but watch his 180 foot approach, with a 90 foot skid trying to stop, and having been in accidents before, I still found myself at the point of his impact simply closing my eyes, still with my hands on the steering wheel, still with my foot standing on the brake, when I know I should have pulled my legs back and taken my hands off the wheel.
Unless someone has amazing self-control or repeated training, you can't control what you are going to do in the few seconds before disaster. Maybe if I had had 30 seconds to prepare it would have been different, but I'm not convinced!
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g287/bladewashout/PictureNet.jpg
BW

[SASless]

Relax or brace is the question?

I heard once upon a time the Royal Navy did a study and considered doing away with seat belts and shoulder harnesses all together. They felt it would be a great savings in cost. They considered installing nice shiny chrome trailer hitch balls in the seat cushions and modifying their flight suits to allow for the pilots to accomodate for the modification.

It was supposed in a serious crash, clinching one's hind end would securely retain one in the seat.

If I see the ground arriving at near warp speed and know there is nothing I can do to prevent it from happening....getting my head down and curving my spine from the upright vertical position is the best I can do.

Rotor blades like to lop noggins in some types of helicopters and if you hit vertically with a straight spine you will risk some very serious damage as compared to being bent over.

[RotaryRat]

Rotor blades like to lop noggins in some types of helicopters and if you hit vertically with a straight spine you will risk some very serious damage as compared to being bent over.
This is what i would have thought would have been the best technique, however I read an article about an RAAF F-111 crew that ejected near New Zealand, the Pilot from memory had sat back in his seat with a straight back, the Nav wasn't prepared for the Ejection sequence, bent forward to check the Ejection handle and was in that posture when the Capsule fired. He Claimed the pilot didn't suffer any spinal problems, however he himself did.

[SARREMF]

Ah, now then you are confusing 2 issues here - IMHO - an ejection seat is a pre-meditated acceleration at a rate the body can withstand - I think it was 18g/sec but some of the later seats might be more. In this situation, i.e. the controlled burn over a set period, you need the straight back to allow the force to be transmitted equally down the spine - straight back.

In a helicopter vertical crash your probably going to get a much higher instantaneous g reading than this. This is because you have a much shorter time and small stopping distance. Thus, you absorb more energy per second or milli second. IN this situation you do not want it going straight up your spine because it simply wont cope - IMHO. Thats why you brace. Now, the brace position is different for different heli types but it tries to look after the kneck and the flailing limb syndrome. Tightish ball holding back of kneck and legs with other hand. However, word of caution, if you have crash seats you must alter the position of your legs to allow the seat to stroke down - otherwise it breaks your ankles if you tuck them under! Running away gets a tad tricky!

Remember though - if its in to the water think orientation of your escpae and combine it with your brace position so one hand goes straight to your exit, the other to your harness release and away you go as soon as everything stops thrashing. Unfortunately, this is all best taught as a practical exercise. Next airshow wander up to the loadmaster of a mil helo and ask, I'm sure they will demonstrate. Oh, and if you are in a big cabin type aircraft and are on a monkey harness and can't get to the seat then lie flat on the floor - spreads load.

However, these are my own opinions in case you try it and it doesn't work!

[PPRuNeUser0212]

R Rat,
another quote from that ejection, pilot said landing was like sitting on a pillow on a wooden chair and jumping off a single storey house. ouch
Personally been in a prang and all different injuries, ranging from shaken up, to neck pain, to rib damage, to busted jaw, to life threatening injuries.(all survived)
Don't think what ever brace position you take it's all up to Lady Luck.

LHS

[gadgetguru]

One reason why drunks often escape serious harm in a crash -their limbs are limp.

I'll have to remember to tamk up before my next flight...just in case :\

[RotaryRat]

Thanks for the feedback fellas, hopefully won't have to use these techniques in the real world but it's nice to know just in case......