Queenstown Mountain Flying Course

[devolved]

G’day,
Just wondering what pilots think of the mountain flying course run at Wakatipu, and its benefit regarding employment by the local operators on completion of the course?
I do understand one has to put in the "hard yards" on the ground and generally be a “good bloke” to get the nod, even with the local exprience?

But I am curious; is the course worth while if for example, a CPL, multi IF (no use in QN) and a TT of 300. (Training been done on the north island).

Just another freshy looking at his options :ugh:

Cheers

[devolved]

damnit. ok does anyone have any info about queenstown?

Basically bumping this thread back onto the main page :P

[Capt. On Heat]

Since noone else is lighting up the keyboard. A few months back

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198341

You're probably better off talking to pilots you know who have/have not done it or people you can be put on to and either going and seeing the operators or just give 'em a call. All the best mate.

[AerocatS2A]

With the mountain flying course under your belt, you may be employed by a local Queesntown operator. Without it, you definitely won't be. Its value then, is determined by whether you want to fly VFR scenics around Queenstown.

[lostpianoplayer]

OK, I'll post some thoughts, since not a lot of comment has been forthcoming.
My PERSONAL opinion is that the flying around Queenstown is an extremely worthwhile addition to any logbook. It's a very good training environment, in that the mountains and WX are challenging. There's also less ATC support than one finds in some other areas, because there is no radar yet, and radio coverage can be a bit spotty too. We could go round and round with Queenstown is better than PNG is better than the King Country on a bad day...whatever, but I rate the mountain flying training available in Queenstown very highly. Even thought I'd love to try some flying in PNG myself!

I think I read somewhere on a previous thread that Queenstown pilots are a bit precious about mountain flying, and "everyone knows what wind does when it hits a hill". Well, maybe, but skills like knowing turning radii at different speeds and MAUWs, crossing passes, superimposing a horizon onto a mountain to maintain level flight and good airspeed control, predicting turbulence/lift/sink, genuine poor WX flying, interacting with terrain & clouds, forced landings in rough terrain (I mean practice of course), operations with limited power, etc etc - are not necessary intuitive, don't automatically come with 300 TT - or 30,000 for that matter - and are the bread and butter of Queenstown flying. Could you learn them somewhere else? Of course, although I'd look pretty carefully, in NZ at least, before I committed to mountain flying training somewhere else. There are some very good operators out there, of course, and I have nothing negative to say about any of them. I just know that all the above stuff is definitely drummed into you from day one in Queenstown.

I certainly don't want to underestimate North Island mountain flying - I've flown a bit up there, and I don't subscribe to any simplistic philosophies about what is the "best", or "hardest" flying. And I certainly can't recommend the IFR training on offer around Queenstown :)

I have to respectfully expand on Aerocat's comments in that, while it's true that the skills that are undoubtedly on offer in Queenstown do qualify you to do "VFR scenics around Queenstown", I think that's an incomplete picture, or a slightly misleading picture. The scenic flights in Fiordland National Park are, technically, "around Queenstown", I guess - but the mountains around here can make for an exceptionally demanding flying environment. The skills gained in mastering this environment are likely to sharpen up your flying, all round. Who knows - maybe one day you'll be flying the Gimli Glider, epaulettes and all - or be in one of a thousand other situations that would benefit from more hands-on stick n rudder mtn flying experience - and be glad you did it.

As for the question re the specific benefit of the ZQN mountain flying time requirement to work in ZQN, yes, it IS a pre-requisite but is not sufficient, in itself, to get a job. But that's no different to anywhere - obviously one needs to be keen, motivated and all that to work anywhere. And most keen, motivated, trained people that I have seen come through ZQN have found jobs here.

Why not come down and fly? Spend a day or so, talk to the locals, maybe do two or three training flights, see if you can twist the arm of the local Harmon Rocket owner to take you up - I hear he takes keen newbies up in exchange for free coffees:) - and then you'll have a much better idea as to the way forwards.

(In the interests of disclosure, I am a member of the Wakatipu Aero Club - whose number is 03 442 3148. This isn't a marketing pitch though - just my personal opinion. I've trained in quite a few places in NZ, the US and Canada, and I do rate the flying training down here pretty highly. My email is [email protected] ([email protected]) if you wanna discuss further.)

For some reason opinions on training organisations and so on seem to be extremely controversial. If I've offended anyone, I apologise in advance. Not really in the mood for a nitpicky debate, just trying to help Devolved with a bit of local's perspective. It is, of course, a subjective, limited, local's perspective.

Andrew

[piontyendforward]

Here is another point of View.

This is a just another way of operators having potential employees pay for their training. Surely an operator should train pilots for their specific operation rather than have the pilot pay the Aeroclub to train?

The course itself is OK but badly targeted; They teach all the stuff as "this is what you do to be a mountain pilot" and "when you are as good as us we may let you fly in the mountains". Nowhere do they teach "in these conditions you should be on the ground before you have to use these skills". Most of the course is piloting stuff but it is not put forward as escape skills, but shown as normal proceedure. How many pilots have they killed in that region? I can recall at least two that didnt need to happen.

In the ZQN area ATO rules are constantly ignored with respect to terrain clearence and viz minima, low flying is encouraged next to mountains and pilots that managed to "get the job done are idolised" even though the have taken some grave risks with fare paying pax.

Wakatipu and the ZQN area operations are classic NZ ego generators and are part of the rotten culture that pervades New Zealand GA.

Mountain Flying is not dangerous or highly skilled, they just need respect, knowledge and the pilot to leave the ego on the ground!

[jafa in da hood]

Having done the mounatin flying course and worked for a season and a bit in ZQN, I believe its the best thing I have ever done. I agree with everything that lostpanioplayer has to say, even though I havent flow in as many places has he has.

I do understand one has to put in the "hard yards" on the ground and generally be a “good bloke” to get the nod, even with the local exprience?

This is true, however this is usually the case in any job if you want a promotion or anything similar to that. As I was told over and over by my folks for years and years, if you want it bad enough, you'll do anything for it.

I had a fantastic time while I was flying down there, the only thing I dont miss is the cold, but it could be worse. Even though Im not flying in mountains now, the skills I learnt from Wakatipu I still put into good pratice today; I may never have learnt them if I didnt do the course.

Go hard, you'll learn a hell of a lot and have good fun whilst doing it.

Jafa

pointyendforward: Whats the difference between having 'potential employees pay for their training' at the aero club for their mountain flying, and having a 'potential employee' pay for a C Cat at a flying school/aero club?? A C Cat pays to get their first job.

[AerocatS2A]

In the ZQN area ATO rules are constantly ignored with respect to terrain clearence and viz minima, low flying is encouraged next to mountains and pilots that managed to "get the job done are idolised" even though the have taken some grave risks with fare paying pax.

Funny. I don't believe it would be possible to operate in to Milford Sound if terrain clearance mins were strictly adhered to.

Flying close to mountains is sometimes encouraged because it is the safest place to be at the time.

Although I haven't done the mountain flying course myself, I have backseated with others and from that experience I find your comments to be entirely untrue. Maybe the training has changed since I was there.

[Cypher]

I did a few hours with Wakatipu Aero Club in the mountains... not by any means the full course. However the small amount of flying I did there I really did enjoy... I thought it was well worthwhile, especially if one was looking at working in the ZQN area...

Pionty has a point (xcuse the pun) in that yes, maybe they should be emphasising that yep, you should be on the ground as opposed as in the ground when it comes to those conditions... A lot they do teach you are escape moves, such as successfully turning 180 up a valley without succombing to the illusion of no horizon... however I was told many times in my training, "You don't fly up a valley you haven't flown down before"....

Hey it may sound like common sense, but how many new pilots ever think of it that way...

[lostpianoplayer]

Wow. Well, I think I'll steer clear of an anonymous public debate about "how many they have killed" - whoever "they" are, and nor am I going to be an apologist for the entire aviation industry around Queenstown - which like all areas of human endeavour is not without its problems. But, er, which I think is a little different to the kind of environment described by the angry-sounding person above. Aviation safety is a complex topic, which often defies simple analysis, and places like pprune seem to be perfect places for simplistic analysis and vitriol. I am rather surprised at the assertion that mountain flying is not highly skilled, and the implication that it is not innately more risky than flying in flatter areas of the country, but I think I'll leave piontyendforward's comments to speak for themselves. Those comments do, indeed, provide "another point of view".

Various contact details are contained in my earlier post, should anyone else want to explore mountain flying training in general, or in the Wakatipu in particular. Either contact the training organisation direct, or send me an email...

[Bramley]

I can only comment as a PPL ab-inito student, who did some mountain flying after gaining his licence and before heading back to the Northern hemisphere. Compared with even the better schools up here in the UK, the standard of tuition at Wakatipu Aero Club was excellent. No egos on display, quite the opposite actually, and the focus of all of the mountain flights I took was safety, safety and then safety. Which did include decision-making on the ground as well as in the air - no way would students have been encouraged to take unacceptable risks. What pilots do after they leave may be a different matter.
Jafa will be the first to admit that his flying improved a lot during his course (how many engine failures in that first lesson?). Piontyendforward, perhaps better to head down and see what's taught before making your observations about the culture. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Devolved - hopefully you've already had plenty of good feedback, as I did when I was planning my flight training, and that you'll get a chance to go down and check things out. The flying there beats the crap out of hazy, flat, dull England!