Airline Moves For RAAF Top Guns

[Gnadenburg]

Anyone know anything about this from QF? Part time pilots? Are they government subsidised to make it beneficial to the airlines?

Considering there are many experienced pilots abroad and possibly even from within the two airlines, interested in part time flying, how would current RAAF pilots be a shoe in for such a deal?


Airline move for RAAF's top guns
Lincoln Wright
04jun06

AUSTRALIA'S "top gun" fighter pilots could be allowed to work part-time for Qantas or Virgin Blue under a radical bid to retain defence force staff.
Men and women aged over 55 would also be permitted to join under a new "Dad's Army" plan to recruit experienced workers into the Australian Defence Force.

Former drug users and asthmatics would also be passed under the plans being considered by Defence Minister Dr Brendan Nelson.
Another recommendation would see army, navy and air force recruits given a six-month "suck it and see" period to decide if they like it.

It costs $15 million to train an FA-18 pilot, but many leave for lucrative private sector jobs.

A report into how to retain defence force staff has recommended giving pilots who want to leave, options to stay.

That could involve leaving the air force for a period then returning or allowing service chiefs to strike better job contracts, one source said.
Qantas employs 2300 pilots and many come from the RAAF, a Qantas spokesman said.

Among the recommendations in the report by marketing expert Avril Henry was the plan for a flexible approach to pilots who want to make more money with private airlines.

Dr Nelson is impressed by the hiring practices of big defence contractors, who discuss "conditions and money" when hiring. "If we lose those people and we need them, there should be a capacity to deal with that and deal with it in a flexible manner from a government that's very committed to flexibility in the labour market," he said.

[Gateway Customer]

Maybe best if they work in GA first.

We will call it an Apprenticeship.

[nig&nog]

How about they work it the other way and let any airline pilot fly an F-18, Herc, Orion etc for a couple of days every month like a national guard sort of set up.
I'll put my hand up to burn heaps of juice at dot feet and I'll even get the radio work correct to help atc.

[yowie]

:eek:Geez nog,let you anywhere near that sort of equipment,SCARY:8
Give new meaning to 'switching to guns'

[Aussie]

Interesting.... wonder where this will go.

Aussie

[king oath]

You will never have a National Guard type setup here.

Those who run the Airforce would be too jealous to allow some QF First Officer on 2 or 3 times their salary to come and play with their toys on a part time basis.

Who ever came up with this cr*p is dreaming.

[psycho joe]

RAAF retention rates would be a lot better if pilot's were allowed to be pilots and continue flying instead of doing secondary duties and unessesary admin work. Or extensive deployments for months on end on a two way firing range being worked into the ground so that some tosser can pat themselves on the back with the line "We're punching above our weight". Only to return to a complacent Joe Public that neither knew what you were doing overseas in the first place, nor could they give a rat's....

[neville_nobody]

It costs $15 million to train an FA-18 pilot, but many leave for lucrative private sector jobs.


Well I think that Jetstar should take care of that problem!! :} The government should just let it all go and see what happens to pilot retention once Jetstar start doing the majority of QF flying.

[OzExpat]

Ah yes, I see it now... airlines will undoubtedy be quite eager to set the benchmark on RAAF payscales!:eek:

[Arm out the window]

The question I'd ask is what's in it for the airlines?
Lots of ex-military people have gone to airlines, of course, but if the concept is to have some of those coming back to service flying on a part-time basis, that's got to be more difficult to manage for the employer.
I don't think they'd go for it unless there was some serious financial inducement from the government, in which case the money saved by the RAAF not losing experience would have to be more than that spent on the scheme.

[amos2]

:p ...Aw!! C'mon Gnad, you've been around these parts for 6 or 7 years or so, and 700 odd posts...

what's going on here?...bit bored are we?..want to do a bit of stirring?

what a wind up...and they're all falling for it!

Give us a break mate!!

:p

[Keg]

RAAF retention rates would be a lot better if pilot's were allowed to be pilots and continue flying instead of doing secondary duties and unessesary admin work.

Geez, no secondary duties, admin work and so on. May as well make them a SGT while we're at it. Then we would have gone full circle and officers will again be managers of personnel as their role dictates they should be rather than just being pilots! :E

[amos2]

Strewth, Keg...
you're a bit of a worry, mate...
unless that post is a wind up too? :=

[ruprecht]

Considering that a FLTLT on max flying pay now makes roughly 105K (without allowances) and airline wages in this country are heading south, maybe retention will not be such a problem in the future.

ruprecht.

I always would have preferred to be a SNCO pilot!

[amos2]

So, tell me Rup...

which airline in Oz is paying their skippers less than 105K?

[Keg]

lol. Yes amos, it was a bit of a wind up....but there is a method to the madness as well. In reality, how many pilots in the RAAF actually hold down a true officers role in terms of man management and organisational responsibility. Couldn't half an average SQN be made up of SNCOs with officers holding down the other jobs that actually do require that organisational responsibility? As Ruprecht points out, there are many ADF pilots who would LOVE to be SNCOs if it meant similar pay and that they could remain flying. This leaves those who want the staff jobs to go for them.

Besides, it if was good enough for Middleton VC during the biggest air conflict the world has ever seen, why not now for the modern day RAAF? :ok: I will admit that I'm just an interested observer to all of this and have no real experience of front line ADF ops so I'm happy to hear the counter points but I do know a thing or three about 'management' and I do have a few friends who are officers- and sometimes gentlemen but generally not! :eek: ;)

[Arm out the window]

If we went back to SGT pilots, the blunties would take over the world even more than they've already done.:uhoh:

[Aussie]

Amos2,

No airline payin less then 105K for a skipper (yet) but throw in the RAAF benefits like free dental and medical to only mention a few, and i dont think theres much in it.

Aussie

[Victor India]

Amos2,

Actually, The 105K is absolute barebones pay, not at all inclusive of accommodation allowance, any slip port/daily allowances, free medical/dental or removals. There is NEVER ANY threat of paying for one's own conversion training (although I admit a ROSO (Return of Service Obligation) on certain conversions). The cost of fuel barely rates a mention (although the greenie (NOT the accountant) in me says it probably should). And then there's extra overseas operational deployment pay (which, in addition to regular salary during the deployment, is tax free).

The usefulness that a prospective <insert legacy carrier> Second Officer feels before leaving his/her Defence job is tenfold more than he/she is likely to feel for years (possibly decades) in their airline job.

So - no - 105k may not seem like a Captain's salary but then again, leaving Defence and taking something between a 10 and 20 year demotion isn't very attractive either. Believe me.

VI

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Couldn't half an average SQN be made up of SNCOs with officers You have obviously not carried as the "customer" an Army Colonel.

:eek: The rank system reigns supreme. Even if you are the Captain. Hence the Flying Safety mobs recommendation against an adverse cockpit gradient (say a FLTLT captain and a GPCAPT or WGCDR co-pilot).

As for free dental and medical.. Do you think RAAF aircrew are honest to the medical Nazi's??!? Hence the old saying "Never hesitate , self medicate". :E
There is NEVER ANY threat of paying for one's own conversion training Well.. as you mentioned it's payed for in a different way. Imagine after getting your licence (around the time you are thinking time to go bush) joining a company that whilst it does increase your pay over time, won't let you quit for ten years. Don't get me wrong, as I'm not complaining as I joined and in fact began flying because I love it.

[halas]

Have flown with collegues here in the sand-pit that flew NATO fighters during the week and Virgin Express on the weekends in Brussels. Best of both worlds for them. The Virgin fella's enjoyed weekends off.:rolleyes:

But then Europe is very different to Oz :hmm:

halas

[Gnadenburg]

Either the Defence Minister is overstating demand for RAAF pilots or he is embarking on a programme to subsidise their employment within local airlines.

Is the retention of fast jet pilots that big an issue these days?


Quote " Dr Nelson is impressed by the hiring practices of big defence contractors, who discuss "conditions and money" when hiring. "If we lose those people and we need them, there should be a capacity to deal with that and deal with it in a flexible manner from a government that's very committed to flexibility in the labour market," he said. " Un-quote.

Here comes Lockheed Martin and their 12 billion dollar Aussie JSF project. You watch the public servants, bueracrats from Russell HQ, ex-pollies and serving Air Force Brass who have preserved the need for JSF , end up with 300K+ packages with the contractor.

Lockheed fighters have made politicians very rich in bygone eras- the F104 in particular!

[Gnadenburg]

. Imagine after getting your licence (around the time you are thinking time to go bush) joining a company that whilst it does increase your pay over time, won't let you quit for ten years. Don't get me wrong, as I'm not complaining as I joined and in fact began flying because I love it.

Still hard to believe in the original article, they reckon you cost 15 million to train Frozo. To fly pizza and mail into Bagdad.

No wonder the ADF's warfighting capability has an iceberg like structure.:p

[Ex Douglas Driver]

That's because Frozo isn't a steely-eyed fighter pilot....:}

[Aussie]

Here we go...

[Eagleman]

Will they be instant captains or second officers?

What if the PM sends us off to a new battle following orgers from his cobber bushie, do we cancel services or establish new destinations?

Will we get danger money or war zone allowances?

Does my LoL cover me?

[Fliegenmong]

What if I'm asked to pay for a type rating on a F-18?:eek:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Still hard to believe in the original article, they reckon you cost 15 million to train Frozo. To fly pizza and mail into Bagdad.

No wonder the ADF's warfighting capability has an iceberg like structure.Believe me , if we had any Pizza on board it would not have reached Baghdad. :E

That's because Frozo isn't a steely-eyed fighter pilot.... Correct on two counts..

Nothing "Steely" about my construction.. built for comfort, not speed.
Definately not a fighter pilot. I'm too much of a slow learner for that stuff :O Plus anyway... if I pulled 6+ G, the seat would fall out the bottom of the aircraft :}

[oldm8]

105K on FLTLT salary is true but this is missing the point entirely.
I have 3 years to go on ROSO and know very few guys that are planning to hang around, despite the pay cut you will take (in short term) to go to an airline.

The pay ISNT the issue.

Its the "bull**** factor" which i could go on about for hours but wont because I am going to bed

nite!!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

The issue as I tried explaining it to a mate is this (and I don't necessarily put myself in this boat):

You can't rape someone for ten years.. then place a rose on the pillow and expect them to smile and say thank you.

[OBNO]

Hate to dissapoint you boys , but it ain't that rosy in the airlines. Beware the greener grass.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I tihnk you'll find what OldM8 is talking about doesn't come close to the airlines. When was the last time the QF pilots had to stand out on a parade ground at 7am , when it's -5 degrees :}

[cunninglinguist]

oldm8's got a point, I've flown with quite a few RAAF guys and yes, they do come out with alot of BS :}

[Lord Snot]

When was the last time the QF pilots had to stand out on a parade ground at 7am, when it's -5 degrees :}Yep times are tough... You probably even had to throw a bone now and then.

[LookinDown]

The rumour is definately true...
the only condition is that visiting civvy pilots have to personally pay for any fuel they use.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Those who run the Airforce would be too jealous to allow some QF First Officer on 2 or 3 times their salary to come and play with their toys on a part time basis.

Well that’s what’s been happening for many years now, albeit those involved are ex-military pilots now flying for civvy airlines. These guys fly with a RAAF squadron a set number of days per year. Works quite well.:ok:

[Lots of ex-military people have gone to airlines, of course, but if the concept is to have some of those coming back to service flying on a part-time basis, that's got to be more difficult to manage for the employer./QUOTE]

Q don’t seem to have a problem with it.

[QUOTE]RAAF retention rates would be a lot better if pilots were allowed to be pilots and continue flying instead of doing secondary duties and unnecessary admin work.

Concur to an extent. I’ve always maintained that the RAAF would do well to focus on retention rather than recruitment. “Secondary duties and unnecessary admin work” are part and parcel of making a squadron run. IMHO if every pilot on every RAAF squadron was asked if he/she wanted to stay where they were and for how long, the benefits would be twofold:

1. You’d actually start building and retaining experience rather than losing it every posting cycle and/or every airline recruiting drive.
2. Because the turn over would now be very low, the training requirement would be less with the associated lower costs in that area.

There will always be those who desire promotion through the rank scheme. Let them. Far better to have a senior officer who actually wants to be a senior officer, rather than someone who has been pushed into a paper-shuffling job wishing he/he was still flying. There are too many of those around now!

However all this will not work unless the RAAF starts thinking outside the box with respect to its rank structure and management. IMHO the RAAF is embarrassingly top-heavy. I’m sure the Wing/Group structure was introduced to soak up all the excess senior officers out there! The HQ/Operational/Support Command structure worked well for many years.
The RAAF urgently needs to reduce the numbers at the top end of its rank structure.

Considering that a FLTLT on max flying pay now makes roughly 105K (without allowances) and airline wages in this country are heading south, maybe retention will not be such a problem in the future.

Pay aside, you will always get those (military pilots, that is) who will go to an airline anyway. However the decision to increase flying pay made a few years ago was a wise one. Your mid-range FLTLT looking at bailing to go to Q generally has a young family in tow. $k105/year is therefore difficult to discount.

[Keg]

When was the last time the QF pilots had to stand out on a parade ground at 7am , when it's -5 degrees :}

You can't be serious PAF. Apart from the Federation Guard, when was the last time the average RAAFie did this? :eek: I can point to a lot of teenagers in the Air Force Cadets who would have done this more in the last 12 months than the average RAAFie! :p

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Richmond used to have it's monthly parade. Night flying was always in high demand the night before the parade. I think they got rid of it about the same time I moved :{

I always found it amusing that in this environment of "heightened" security the entire base stands in one small location 50 meters from the fence. :bored:

[Gnadenburg]

Still can't see how the airlines will want part time pilots who fly fighters for the RAAF. Unless the government subsidises them ( so much for Frozo's free market economics ).

Lockheed Martin is different. Maybe they will want a core of senior officers and pilots as consultants in the development phase of the JSF. There were one or two RAAF test pilots employed by ASTA for a short time when building the Hornets ( they went back to the RAAF ).

So RAAF staff resign, go on the Lockheed Martin payrole during development phase as loyal servants to the cause, come back and help introduce the JSF into the RAAF. This will politically satisfy some aspects of Australian participation in the project.

Win-win for all but the taxpayer if JSF is delayed.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

so much for Frozo's free market economic What are you talking about? I don't remember arguing it was a good idea based on sound economics?!

However I suppose the airlines could break your pay and conditions things by employing pilots on "casual" wages.

[oldm8]

I havent heard any of this part time thing on the grapevine whatsoever.
To be honest it sounds like pie in the sky horse****e to me.
WRT the standing around on parade thing, what frozo is talking about is just one example of the BS we have to put up with. But there is no point in whinging about it, do something about it! And thats just what most guys are doing. At the end of the day something fundamental has to change to stop the exodus of guys at the 10 year mark.

The idea of knucks working part time for QF is again missing the point. Most guys WANT to work for the airlines in preference to the RAAF, not part time for one or the other. So i dont see how this is going to improve things. Without govt subsidy how is QF going to look favourably on hiring raffies part time. It is simply not in their interests.

I know there is the "grass is greener on the other side" argument against leaving but from the guys I know who have moved on to QF, CX etc the grass seems VERY VERY green by comparison.

As far as i can tell in QF/CX:

No secondary duties
No ground jobs
No individual readiness BS
No Pilots being forced to take leave when it doenst suit
No Secpol
Seniority helps your flying career rather than hinders it
No DHA
No ****ty postings where my wife cant be employed
My children wont have to change school every 2.5 years

This is not a whinge, I am quite happy in my job. Its just that there is something better out there to strive for, and i just want whats best for my family. Nothing wrong with that is there?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

No DHA I still reckon the guy who came up with their slogan "The Home of Service" is pi$$ing himself laughing to this day.
The idea behind DHA is a great one. The problem is in the execution. My favourite was being told to get paid my rental advance, I had to provide a receipt showing that I had paid it already. I e-mailed them a link to the dictionary definition of "advance".. :}

[DutchRoll]

Gnads, they really are dreamin'. Good post for a wind-up though.

There's probably limited (if any) benefit in the airlines for that system unless they could use it to savage the wages structure. But airline management are already getting several helping hands on that one without involving the military. And someone's already mentioned the insane jealousy (seen 1st hand) of certain individual career-men when they see a QF F/O or S/O waltz in & strap into a RAAF aircraft. The fact that they might be desperately short of experience or numbers doesn't stop them from letting personal pride get in the way & making life difficult!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

As long as you aren't stealing good trips Dutchroll ... :}

[amos2]

Well, I guess It's time to trot out the old truism that has applied since year dot...

there's only two types of pilots...

airline pilots and those that want to be airline pilots!

[Lord Snot]

You forgot the third type of pilot... the airline pilot who wished he wasn't.

Yeah baby.. straight and level, hold it, hold it.... engage the auto-pilot... and rest. :ooh:

[Wombat35]

To all the GD's, take it from me life is much better out (not quite as much fun so make sure you enjoy your time in) however think twice about the airlines, there is much more money/life enjoyment putting your brain to other things. Your management skills are really needed in the corporate world and you will be greeted with open arms.

Enjoy your time, get married, get out and get on with you life. There are other options out there for you rather than all this airline mess. Sure the money might be better but how much is:


Coming home every afternoon
Having a life
Having choices other than being an airline pilot and a taxi driver
Having stability in you employment


worth?

Hey if you want to enjoy your flying buy your own aircraft and make it work for you. Easy!

Cheers

Wombat

[Captain Sand Dune]

You forgot the third type of pilot... the airline pilot who wished he wasn't.

Well said. As an ex-RAAF/now QF pilot was quoted to say when asked how he enjoyed his new airline career: "it's the best non-flying job I've ever had":}

[TruBlu351]

I tihnk you'll find what OldM8 is talking about doesn't come close to the airlines. When was the last time the QF pilots had to stand out on a parade ground at 7am , when it's -5 degrees :}

You obviously didn't get your leave app in quick enough!! :}

[C-FTR]

Maybe the article in the original post got his wires crossed. It would make more sense for the part time work to be done at the RAAF not the airline. This would mean a development in the reserve flying that already exists for some of those who have left the RAAF to join airlines. Currently 1 guy on FA18's and a number of guys on the Hawk that are either QF FO's or SO's. As the last budget allocated more money to the reserves I believe there would be opportunity to increase these numbers and in the process retain some of the experience lost when RAAF pilots move onto the airlines or anywhere else.

[Gnadenburg]

From where I sit, this post wasn't a wind up. I was genuinely hoping that airlines would offer part time flying positions. It would be something I would strucuture myself for and enjoy lifestyle benefits.

From the responses and lack of scuttlebutt, it would seem we have an ill-informed minister or poor journalism.

The Australian aviation industry doesn't need RAAF pilots in the same way as what is going on in India- where their air force pilots are on secondment to Air India due a crisis level, shortage of pilots. Safer and probably even cheaper, to import highly paid and experienced expat pilots to build their industry.

[Erin Brockovich]

This might seem a bit obvious but why not just pay the Pilots more. Increase the flying allowance. Leave them to do what it is they enjoy doing instead of flying a desk. I’m sure it would make more sense to use $50,000 trained pen pushers instead of using $15mil trained pilots. No sympathy for living in Katherine and the like though – you all knew what you were getting your selves in for. No point having a front line base in Sydney or Melbourne.

[TruBlu351]

This might seem a bit obvious but why not just pay the Pilots more. Increase the flying allowance. Leave them to do what it is they enjoy doing instead of flying a desk. I’m sure it would make more sense to use $50,000 trained pen pushers instead of using $15mil trained pilots. No sympathy for living in Katherine and the like though – you all knew what you were getting your selves in for. No point having a front line base in Sydney or Melbourne.

Hell will freeze over first :}

The RAAF used to have pilot retention bonus depending on whether you signed on for a further 3, 4 or 5 years......taxed at 47% though :confused: Hey, here's a bonus....but give me half back :hmm:

Apparently it did nothing to stop guys leaving so was done away with.......which shows there's more to it than money.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

or that the money wasn't enough.

[Trash Hauler]

I think stability is the word, like knowing what you will be doing tomorrow................darn, that phone again........... what?...........................NO, I have got things planned!...........:mad: mumble mumble, go tell the wife and kids...............see you in a week....again!

................so I guess that boring flying earning good money has some advantages beyond the $...................darn shame I'm a flight engineer and I ain't going to share in any of it!

[Point0Five]

or that the money wasn't enough.... as determined by the market, but I keep reading on here that comercial airline pilots salaries are on their way downwards. Guess it would probably be enough now if it was offered again :}

[donpizmeov]

Experience levels are pretty much the same as they have always been. Its only when you have been there a bit and see that there are not many more experienced than yourself you think things have changed.

Guys need to move up or out to give the newbies their chance. The training factories need people to move up or out so they can keep working properly. I rememeber in the early 90s when airlines paused with recruiting for a while and guys were not leaving things went sour. The C130 SQNs became dumping grounds for new pilots. Fellas were finishing tours without ever getting a command. Not a good thing at all.

Ever since flying pay was included in MSBS, I think you really have to think long and hard about leaving. Yes you get ginned about every few years with postings and the like, but I think you will be hard pressed to match the MSBS retirement package wherever you go. And remember as soon as you leave, the unfunded part of MSBS (that would be the biggest bit of it!!!) only grows at CPI (2.4% last year) until you turn 55yr old, and then you may reinvest it in another Super scheme.

When I was in the RAAF, I only heard really great things about Airline flying from those that were doing it. Now I am in an Airline, I only hear people unhappy with it. Go figure. Being in an Airline is just another job. I think there are only three guys from my Pilots course still in. And I must admit I think a lot of fellas think they have to leave because everyone else does. Its wonderful thing this peer pressure thing.

Don

[Taildragger67]

Guys need to move up or out to give the newbies their chance. The training factories need people to move up or out so they can keep working properly. I rememeber in the early 90s when airlines paused with recruiting for a while and guys were not leaving things went sour. The C130 SQNs became dumping grounds for new pilots. Fellas were finishing tours without ever getting a command. Not a good thing at all.

Don

More than one RAAF driver has passed up staff jobs and promotions (with contemporaries reaching the very top levels) to stay flying on things from Pigs to Bou-bous.

I seem to recall (maybe 10-15 years ago) that in order to make sure its investment wasn't totally lost when a pilot left to go to an airline, the service had no problem in letting them become part-time pilots; I recall one RAAF News saying that one was on Hornets and I think others were on Hercs and P3s... ??? Did that scheme go walkies in the last few years while I've been away?

[luvmuhud]

Taildragger,
As C-FTR discussed above, the reserve scheme is still alive and well. All squadrons I have been posted to in the RAAF have had at least one reservist who was a pilot for either QANTAS or Cathay.
The best of both worlds?
Probably.

[mmmbop]

Out of curiosity, can anybody give how many hours per year Ronnie flies by aircraft type?

Oldm8 - there are plenty of QF pilots being forced to take leave when it doenst suit. Just ask the shorthaul guys.

M

[Like This - Do That]

No point having a front line base in Sydney or Melbourne.

Erin

Extend that logic a bit ..... should we move all the knucks out of Williamtown and post them permanently to Scherger and Curtin? Those are 'front line bases'. Is it worth fcuking retention and recruitment for a generation to be seen to be 'vigourously defending the sea-air gap'?

The government might just be cottoning on to this. Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of moving 3RAR to Adelaide and reroling it, one of the explanations provided was to provide a temperate climate posting.

[amos2]

Don't you think it's time you guys moved onto your own RAAF bitch website, which I'm sure exists, rather than prattle on here?

I'm not interested in your airforce V airline nonsence, as I'm sure others aren't, so why don't you just sod off?

[Arm out the window]

Ahhhh....maybe because it's relevant to the topic?
Thanks for a great contribution there, Amos. You must own the website, I s'pose.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Don't you think it's time you guys moved onto your own RAAF bitch website, which I'm sure exists, rather than prattle on here?
I'm not interested in your airforce V airline nonsence, as I'm sure others aren't, so why don't you just sod off?

What, did someone hold you down and force you to read it, or demand that you posted 4 other messages on this thread? Go back to sooking about Jet*...

[Swingwing]

I wasn't going to bother replying, but I thought it might annoy Amos some more if we strung the thread out a bit - so I figured it was 5 minutes of my time worth worth investing. 'Cause of course he can't just ignore the topic, he has to read it all and then weigh in, despite knowing nothing whatsoever about the subject. :)
I wouldn't bother about it though AOTW - that's the only sort of contribution he ever makes, no matter what the topic. I guess there just wasn't enough vitriol, bitterness and name calling to keep 'ol Amos happy!
That said, his contribution (as typically mindless as it is) is of course rich in irony, given the amount of airline v airline or pilot v management slanging matches that have gone on on this board over the last couple of years. Apparently all that's quite OK - but an interesting and topical thread about the national defence, with well thought out and structured arguments is to be avoided at all costs.
So anyway, come on chaps, let's keep it going! Whilever we're annoying prats like that, we must be saying something worthwhile!!
AOTW - hope you're well!
SW

[Arm out the window]

Cheers, Swingwing. Going great, hope you're doing the same.
Jeez, if what you say about Amos is true he must be one happy individual - 'over 500 posts' - maybe there's a positive one in there somewhere?

[Gnadenburg]

I think it has been established that there is nothing beneficial to the airlines in having part time, serving RAAF pilots. But conversely, the reservist concept may be expanded.

If Defence were more accountable for dollars and ran like a well oiled corporation, it would probably consider more unconventional approach to crewing the new generation of legacy airline platforms- namely the A330 tanker and 737 AWACS.

Jetstar went on an unsuccessful poaching spree through the Middle East and Asia, looking for experienced airline pilots to bring home. A large number of those pilots, were former RAAF types with extensive experience on the aforementioned legacy airliners. The package at J* is crap. And frankly, so is the package at Virgin Blue.

Government could offer significant tax breaks, say 40K a year, to entice former RAAF pilots to crew 737's and 330's as reservists. For the cost of single permament RAAF pilot, Defence gets three highly experienced reservists. If we go to war, these types traditionally fly at surge levels and crewing not a problem.

In terms of retention a positive too. Restricting permament RAAF pilot access to an aircraft such as the 330 ( which is a one way ticket to a lucrative airline contract ) and keeping them on tactical types ( fighters, transport, maritime ) makes the new world of airline flying less attractive. That is, having to pay for an endorsement at an airine such as J* and be on less money than you would make in the service.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

So Amos, I assume given this is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, you don't consider Military pilots as professional?
Weren't you with ANSETT?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Gnadenburgh,

All good points you've raised. However people join the ADF as pilots to fly ADF aircraft doing ADF stuff. Sure, there will be those that will change their minds and want to go to the airlines - it's still a free country.
However I still maintain that the problem (and therefore the solution) is retention. The ADF needs to think outside it's very narrow field of view of this matter.
What is the more desirable option: continue to train pilots and have squadrons full of inexperienced boggies, or do something positive about working to keep the experienced FLTLTs/SQNLDRs that just want to fly?
If ADF pilots were allowed to stay flying for as long as they wanted, we wouldn't have to be considering all these weird and wonderful schemes.


PaF....you sh!t stirrer you!:}

[Arm out the window]

When in doubt, commission an inquiry! That'll fix the problem. Or change the rank slides from shoulders to sleeves, or back the other way on the SD jackets. Bloody deadwood who leave for the airlines...snort...splutter!

[Eagleman]

Reality - the ADF does not have enough pilots.

If this statement is incorrect tell me why the new army choppers are being put into mothballs straight off the production line.

When there is an ADF surplus, then we can properly consider "top gun" second officers.

[Point0Five]

The ADF understands where commercial pilots fit in with regard to the reserves:

Commercial pilot and Air Force Reservist, ACW Lisa Menchetti

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4810/topstories/story03.htm

[TruBlu351]

Reality - the ADF does not have enough pilots.

If this statement is incorrect tell me why the new army choppers are being put into mothballs straight off the production line.

When there is an ADF surplus, then we can properly consider "top gun" second officers.

Maybe the Navy can have them, and the Army can look after the Sea Sprites? :}

[Captain Sand Dune]

Reality - the ADF does not have enough pilots.

Certainly the RAAF and the RAN are struggling to convert newly trained pilots in a timely manner. Some are sitting around for months before starting conversions. At a time when their flying skills are at their most fragile, this is quite undesirable. IMHO, 60 Minutes could get some good mileage out of this!


If this statement is incorrect tell me why the new army choppers are being put into mothballs straight off the production line.

Really? Do tell! Last I heard the Tiger has been having problems coming up to speed - it's not a matter of finding people to fly them!

[Gnadenburg]

Captain Sand Dune


Quote from Defence Minister Nelson: "If we lose those people and we need them, there should be a capacity to deal with that and deal with it in a flexible manner from a government that's very committed to flexibility in the labour market," he said.

Let's look at this further in relation to RAAF Reseve pilots, in particular to the A330 Tankers, but it could just as well be the 737 Wedgetails.

1- The A330 has been introduced around the globe, in various airlines, by large numbers of Australian pilots. A percentage of which are ex-RAAF. Locally, it is operated by QF and soon J* International. Further, uniquely, CCQ makes 320 pilots a few days training away from 330 qualification, or further, having the ability of Mixed Fleet Flying on the types- another huge pool of Australian pilots of which a percentage are former RAAF.

2- The A330 is an unmatched endorsement in giving RAAF pilots direct access to a whole new world of lucrative flying positions- the Direct Entry Command. This is not yet for certain, it hasn't really worked for American tanker pilots in the past- KC10 experience has not really been recognised as concrete enough for DEC suitability. Despite military stigmas existing, I think the market will snap up RAAF 330 pilots as DEC's.

How could this be applied to the Defence Minister bold statement of labour flexibility and the RAAF?

Firstly, here is the perfect opportunity to have a squadron bulked up by Reservists. As many as you want with that attitude of "labour flexibility". All in recognition of the fact that the RAAF tanker squadron would be at surge levels during an unlikely event of conventional military scenarios ( airlines run these things at 20 hours a day ). Also, for political camouflage and due the dwindling RAAF fast jet resources, tankers could be a regular committment to coalition air campaigns in the future.

The flexibility the Defence Minister talks of, dictates that training large numbers of RAAF personnel to crew the A330, a misappropriation of Defence resources; in view of the huge number of former RAAF Airbus pilots out there. With the new found labour flexibility in Defence, buy the expertise back from the civilian market place.

How? Could it be done? Offer ex-RAAF pilots tax free $3000 a month to crew A330 on a reserve basis. A few days a month and three weeks a year during annual leave. Conventional currency on type would come from their regular airline flying and recurrency training. RAAF mission currency would be the basis of their reserve training. Reserve Pilot X, current Cathay 330 training pilot, seven thousand hours Airbus, former RAAF F111 pilot. Reserve Pilot Y, current Check Captain J*, four thousand hours Airbus, former RAAF C130 pilot etc. $36000 tax free dollars a year say, for 5 weeks reserve committment will attract airline pilots considering pay pressures in the market.

The attrition from A330 pilots leaving could be addressed too. Sure, they leave to go fly in places such as Korea or the Mid East on lucrative contracts for a while. But their possible return is open to them.

There is a world of ex-RAAF & current Airbus resources available. Enough to crew the A330 Tanker for the next 25 years with a 'flexible labour' attitude.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Gnads,

1 - A good idea initially i.e. it would make sense to take advantage of the sh!tload of experience out there to quickly build the squadrons' corporate experience, instead of doing what the RAAF usually does and ignore it all and re-learn things the hard way (remember the B707 off Sale:( ).
However IMHO once the squadron is up and running the numbers of reservists vs PAF pilots would need to be changed ( more regulars, less reservists) using the pilots currently loafing around squadrons doing fcuk all flying, and/or those in ground jobs created to hold pilots.:yuk:.

2 - Easy addressed - ROSO. Pilots posted to 34SQN as captains are required to accept a 2 (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) year ROSO before starting conversion. However what the RAAF must realise is that no matter what they offer, there will always be those who will opt out for the airlines. Nevertheless they (the RAAF) could introduce some of the measures I've been banging on about in previous posts in order to retain experience.

The attrition from A330 pilots leaving could be addressed too. Sure, they leave to go fly in places such as Korea or the Mid East on lucrative contracts for a while. But their possible return is open to them.

Exactly!! The RAAF could release such people on leave without pay (for example) to go and fly with whomever. These people would come back with a bucket of useful experience the RAAF can use, not to mention being "refreshed" and probably cashed up too.:ok:.
Then they wouldn't have to go through the nausea of resignation and re-enlistment (like I did!:yuk: ).
However I fear that such an idea is a little too much "outside the square" in terms of RAAF-think. Unfortunately there exists in the higher levels (not all, mind you) an attitude of resentment toward those that have done exactly what you have suggested. I'd call it jealousy myself!:}

[Victor India]

Capt Sandy,

Agree in general with your thread.

In answer to your question re: ROSO at 34 Sqn - my understanding (unconfirmed) is that its only pilots doing BBJ (not Challenger) conversion who get the ROSO. You say its only captains - not sure on that point - in any case... if copilots got the ROSO it wouldn't matter as its served concurrently with the 10 yr Pilots Course ROSO which they'd most likely be in the first half of anyway.

I think the background to this ROSO is that a couple of fellas left the RAAF a few years ago very shortly after doing 737 type conversion in Seattle. These guys were heading for AEW&C, not 34 Sqn, but I think the ROSO rule will apply to either BBJ or AEW&C (and presumably A330, C17?).

Incidentally, I was recently passenger on a VB flight where the captain was sitting his initial command route check. He was one of the guys who legged it from the RAAF a couple of years earlier shortly after doing 737 conversion (no ROSO) in Seattle.

VI

[TruBlu351]

Maybe Jetstar could buy some Hercs and sell frozos to passengers whilst they sat in their webbing seats.

That would save some $$$ for J* and the pilots could fly part time :}

[Captain Sand Dune]

my understanding (unconfirmed) is that its only pilots doing BBJ (not Challenger) conversion who get the ROSO.

Your probably right on that one. Any 34SQN pilots care to comment?

think the background to this ROSO is that a couple of fellas left the RAAF a few years ago very shortly after doing 737 type conversion in Seattle. These guys were heading for AEW&C, not 34 Sqn, but I think the ROSO rule will apply to either BBJ or AEW&C (and presumably A330, C17?).


That's my understanding as well. And Ronnie couldn't see that one coming?!:rolleyes:

[josephfeatherweight]

Correct - the ROSO is only for BBJ conversions (not Challenger) and yes, it is served concurrently with the standard 10 year ROSO - so only really applies to pilots whose ROSO has elapsed (or will within 2 years). Not sure why the Challenger is still exempt - plenty of 34 Sqn Challenger captains legged it for the airlines in 2005 - guess they didn't have a 737 rating to slide into a command position (which happened to at least one BBJ guy). One can only presume that similar ROSO extensions will be put in place for the A330 and Wedgetail as commented previously, but if we start talking about ROSO for C17, then why not for any other platform? (C130J, etc - it's still "glass" experience and somewhat attractive to an airline I guess...)
I'm not sure ROSO is the way to go - make the job more attractive to stay (ie remove the looming threat of a ground job after say, a command tour at 34 Sqn). Talk of ROSO breeds resentment - not commitment.
Death to secondary duties! :ugh:

[Gnadenburg]

There is a term you serving RAAF types may be unfamilar with. It's 'professional mobility'. Never existed previously to the extent it does to day. Professional mobility enables type endorsed, high time and experienced pilots to circumvent traditional boundaries of seniority in airlines.

So, a RAAF A330 pilot could have access immediatly to 15-20K packages a month, in the civilian world. A current RAAF F18 or P3 driver say (or future C17 pilots) will not have this professional mobility. It will take him - if lucky - a decade to access this level of experience. Possibly never, if joining traditional, seniority based legacy airlines such as QF.

Two year ROSO equals 1000 widebody command ours. Nice. And Defence doesn't realise it yet! Could someone else join the line up of Defence bueracrats, sitting around with nothing better to do than burning $100 bills, at taxpayers' expense.


Captain Sand Dune

Let's hope the corporate culture sound enough to realise asymetric flying in a 330 can be ably demonstrated in a simulator. And further, lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.

[Vorsicht]

ROSO has been previously found to be unworkable. It sounds good on the surface, and initially has some impact, but what happens in reality is that it gives the individual the opportunity to refuse a posting.

ROSO is a two way contract. i.e we will let you fly a BBJ if you promise to stay two years. This may be attractive to some and they will take it. On the other hand, if you have an experienced jet driver who is looking to get out he may choose to reject the ROSO rather than be posted to the wedgetail project because he doesn't need the experience or want to make the commitment.

It happened in all areas in the mid 90's where 2fts instructors were refusing postings to CFS and Squadron pilots were refusing postings to instructors course. In the end it became unmanageable from DPO's point of view, so they scrapped all roso on conversions.

[Hugh Gorgen]

Guys,

ROSO for BBJ, C17, A330 is 3 years, The RAAF are struggling to find suitably qualified captains (operational experience, glass cockpit etc) because of this ROSO requirement. Guys with suitable experience generally prefer to fly an A330 or 737 for Qantas than for the RAAF. More flying, better pay, 4 star hotel, no RAAF currencies.

Gnads,

You raise many great points. I personally have suggested similiar thoughts to some very senior RAAF commanders. I have been given the " don't you worry about that - we are considering all options". Bottom line, RAAF are looking for experienced reserve QFIs to teach in the sim, however have not yet opted for reserve operational pilots.

Personally I think the RAAF is lacking in experience in many areas and could certainly use and learn from the experience of airline pilots. However, I think the RAAF culture will prevent non PAF personnel from flying operational sorties. I hope Im wrong

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Let's hope the corporate culture sound enough to realise asymetric flying in a 330 can be ably demonstrated in a simulator. And further, lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom. Already off limits to do Assymetric training in the actually aircraft for the C130J-30, C130H and B707. I can't see them changing that for the C17 etc. However haven't the foggiest when a C17 sim will arrive.

[amos2]

When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?

Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!

Rather simple really when you think about it!

Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!

[Victor India]

Well - I thought amos' post was an attempt at a wind up but then was very confused at the end. Anyone got the translation for me?

VI :confused:

[josephfeatherweight]

When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?
Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!
Hmmm. I'm not sure I've seen too many "RAAF guys" suggesting they should be accepted as captains on initial employment? I think you've made a pretty general comment suggesting that a "military pilot" wouldn't make the grade as an airline captain. Depends greatly on their background.
A poorly constructed argument or a sad attempt at a wind-up! (Which I usually love!)
Joe Lighty

[Point0Five]

When are you airline guys going to realise that as a airline pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in the RAAF as an military captain?

Accept your lot, join as an FLGOFF [only changed that one slightly :} ]( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!

Rather simple really when you think about it!

Let's face it, you can afford to take the pay cut, you paid for your training!

[Point0Five]

But seriously, there hasn't been any discussion of the additional systems that will be fitted to the MRTT. I'm yet to see any airliners that emply DIRCM etc.

[Gnadenburg]

But seriously, there hasn't been any discussion of the additional systems that will be fitted to the MRTT. I'm yet to see any airliners that emply DIRCM etc.

Noted an El Al B777 today with that gear.

What's your point?

The discussion is about reserve RAAF pilots, with a world of experience in RAAF operational flying and thousands of ours on type! They are already current on the aircraft through their airline training and regular flying. Reserve training would would entail the mission currency you may be alluding to.

[Point0Five]

I think that it's a worthwhile discussion about the merits of using reserve pilots on commerical airline variants used by the RAAF. I'm just surprised that discussion to date has only revolved around the ability to captain or fly an aircraft; rather than operate a weapons system.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.

[Gnadenburg]

I think that it's a worthwhile discussion about the merits of using reserve pilots on commerical airline variants used by the RAAF. I'm just surprised that discussion to date has only revolved around the ability to captain or fly an aircraft; rather than operate a weapons system.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.


Polishing a very shiny, Ivory Tower there 05! And why wouldn't you? Professional mobility and an instantly gratifying, 15-20K contract monthly packages, or to be targeted by HK carriers who eventually offer more. This has never previously existed for RAAF pilots- sure beats a career in CASA or as a possibly, industrialy stranded S/O at QF!

American ANG & Reserve units have successfully converted from being F15 units, to tanker units. The transition uncomplicated by the fact that a pilot who has flown complex military missions and now flies 'legacy' airliners, adapts easily to relatively uncomplicated tanker op's. I've worked with guys incidently, who at 23 were commanders on tankers on combat operations in Vietnam and were the cornerstone of their countries manned nuclear deterrence during the Cold War- with a thousand hours experience!

Is the modern military tanker mission that complicated to preclude highly experienced former RAAF pilots, current with thousands of hours on type, being mission capable or brought quickly to mission capability if war clouds loom?

All this in mind with the "Force Multiplier" rantings you hear from Defence and RAAF Brass. If we have a 100 JSF fleet, 5 330's will fly at surge levels- 5 x 4 hour cycles daily. It may be lost on Defence, but the ultimate Force Multiplier on your Force Multiplier fleet, is multiple crews. Which could only be justified by extensive use of reservists. Same goes for Wedgetail- although perhaps not as critical with cross polinisation of the VIP fleet.

There is inevitably introductory problems with Airbus aircraft, in an Airbusless culture. Sometimes hull loss. As Sand Dune alludes to, use of reservists, as long as not all from the QF 330 operation, will help make for a smooth introduction. Bearing in mind the Airbus training at Touluse is a very low standard.

So, for the modest sum of 3 grand a month, with 'special tax concessions', Defence can buy back a pool of expertise for ease of introduction and a wartime pool of crews. Our modest fleet of 330's has been force multiplied through common, crewing sense.

Thinking outside the square, if RAAF wants to be nasty, it could get onside with CASA and remove a degree of professional mobility from exposure to RAAF A330 op's. Designating RAAF A330's to KC330's would have Middle Eastern and Asian airline HR companies, caught in a bueraucratic impasse, in not being able to recognise the experience.

[Captain Sand Dune]

amos2,

I see your school holidays have started early.:hmm:

There is a term you serving RAAF types may be unfamilar with. It's 'professional mobility'. Never existed previously to the extent it does to day. Professional mobility enables type endorsed, high time and experienced pilots to circumvent traditional boundaries of seniority in airlines.

Only some are unfamiliar with that concept. This little black duck happens to be very familiar with it, and did alright out of it!:E
Unfortunately some of those in the ivory TWR may not be!:hmm:

lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.
You're not getting bitchy now, are you? :} I don't fly for QF so I wouldn't know.

Vorsicht,

ROSO was in fact in its hey day during the mid/late 80's. Every conversion (and refreshers!:yuk: ) attracted a ROSO. It all came to a sudden halt in the mid (I think) 90's, when I suspect some legal types gently reminded those in the ivory TWR that the concept of ROSO would be difficult to defend in a court of law.
However, I see ROSO is creeping back in.:uhoh:

However, I think the RAAF culture will prevent non PAF personnel from flying operational sorties. I hope Im wrong

IMHO non-PAF (I assume you mean reservists) should not fly operational sorties where there's a PAF pilot available. All sorts of of legal/moral/ethical minefields there I reckon. However reservists have long been proven to be very valuable in the training world, and that's where they should be used primarily.

Thinking outside the square, if RAAF wants to be nasty, it could get onside with CASA and remove a degree of professional mobility from exposure to RAAF A330 op's

The RAAF has demonstrated similar "nastiness" in the past. You guys figure it out!

[amos2]

You wanna go back and revisit your post Sandy?

I think you might'ave lost the plot here Mate!

What are we smokin' tonight??

:p :p :p

[Gnadenburg]

IMHO non-PAF (I assume you mean reservists) should not fly operational sorties where there's a PAF pilot available. All sorts of of legal/moral/ethical minefields there I reckon.


I got the impression, we were looking at ways of dollar cost reducing, air force bombs on target. What are these ethical minefields in an institution whose job it is to kill the enemy?

Instead of using creative reservist concepts to crew what are essentially widebody airliners, expensive and possibly inappropriate air force training resources are going to be used in providing a 'nominal' operational level of crewing on the A330.

A two million dollar, 2FTS graduate, to sit in the RHS of an A330 to "Read ECAM". Or, an experienced transport type whose real business should be in more complex roles such as the new C17, where mission currency is significantly more perishable than holding in a tanker track, off an air force bombing range.

[Ken Nuff]

Can someone please answer the following.

I am a GA trained heavy jet captain. My military experience is limited to school Army cadets

Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?

If not, why not?

If RAAF pilots fly our (company) aircraft, do they expect to do so as instant Captains?

If yes, why?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Gnads,

OK, so legal/moral/ethical minefields may not have been the best choice of words.

However like it or not, how reserves are utilised is at the whim of the particular Service chief. To my knowledge during the last 20 years reserve pilots in the RAAF have been used in the training role, not on operational missions. I'm happy to stand corrected on that one. I don't consider our tax paying public or our political masters would be happy with the concept of operational missions being flown by reservists while there are permanent pilots capable of doing so.

However with the introduction of some "airline types" of aircraft into the RAAF, judicious use of appropriately qualified reserve pilots would be of great benefit. IMHO there would be a valuable role for reserve pilots to play in the expeditious introduction of the tanker into service. However the long term aim should not be to have a squadron largely manned by reservists, rather to transfer their experience to the permanent force as soon as possible. Once that has been achieved, the numbers of reservists should be wound back to what is needed to supplement the training role.

I am a GA trained heavy jet captain. My military experience is limited to school Army cadets

Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?

If not, why not?

If I were in charge (heaven forbid, many would say!) I’d say; “welcome aboard Capt Nuff. Here’s a two year contract to fly A330 MRT. Your role is to impart your knowledge of A330 operations to RAAF pilots and participate in the development of training packages. After two years your performance will be reviewed and your contract may or may not be renewed”.

If RAAF pilots fly our (company) aircraft, do they expect to do so as instant Captains?

Although it would be nice, I think it would be arrogant to assume that would automatically be the case.

[havick]

When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?

Amos, get your head out of your ar*s, I'd love to see how your performance would be on the RAAF/RAN pilots course with your attitude. It goes both ways you know.

[grusome]

Sandy,
In your hypothetical response to Capt Nuff, you should have added "Don't expect four bars on your sleeve."
Gru

[amos2]

So, havik...let me get this straight...

you're 22 right?...

and you expect me to reply to you??

what a goose!!

:= :=

[TruBlu351]

So, havik...let me get this straight...

you're 22 right?...

and you expect me to reply to you??

what a goose!!

:= :=

And your claim to fame is............?

[havick]

Amos,

Lets not get into a pis*ing contest here, I may be 22, but at least I can make an educated comment as have experienced it from both sides of the fence instead of ranting and raving like yourself.

And I don't like to be captain obvious, however you just did reply to me in your last post, even though I am 22..

[Gnadenburg]

Some recent ranting are somewhat moot. Possible crewing options from the commercial world, involving former RAAF pilots as reservists ( with high time on legacy airliners ), are unlimited. The use of non-military trained, current high time airline pilots as reservist unneccessary and a significant risk. The product is unknown as opposed to the ability of defence to 'buy back' former RAAF pilots who not only now have exposure to the A330, but have a common military operational background including post graduate military flying qualifications- advanced instructing, test flying, FCI, mission planning within coalition air packages etc. Three grand a month, tax free, Defence could have as much of this lost investment back as it wants.

The next ranting alluded to was the legitimacy of RAAF pilots, now with never before widebody exposure and a 330 endorsement in place, having the ability to slot in as Direct Entry Captains. Will a RAAF pilot now be able to go straight into, say Emirates, as DEC's as opposed to their previous apprenticeships as F/O's? The obstacles are the following. Low time, but market forces may negate this considering the value of the 330 endorsement. Military stigmas. As ably demonstated here. Service pilots aren't always warmly welcomed. The nature of the flying. A330 tanker op's may not prepare a RAAF pilot adequatly enough for the civilian management of an airliner, without an apprenticeship as a co-pilot.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I think they should get reserve pilots in once every few days to do everyone's secondary duties! :E :ok:

[Point0Five]

Gnads, I'd like you to know that I reside in a glasshouse atop my well polished ivory tower:}

Pissing contests aside, this remains an interesting topic. I'm still curious as to the motivation of ex-RAAF commercial types expounding the virtues of them returning to suck on the generous bossum of the Commonwealth. I'm sure that it's motivated by a strong sense of duty and service to the nation...

Designating RAAF A330's to KC330's

The yank variant is known at the KC30.

[F/O Bloggs]

Amos2,

I thought you weren't interested in this thread. You are still posting 10 days after you said you weren't interested. I see you are still adding your dribble.
So sad to see someone so bitter. Have you heard of this thing called CRM?
I'd listen to a 22yr old any day of the week. You must be a joy to fly with.

Point O five, peoples motivation are varied. For myself the camraderie that exists in the RAAF, and the flying they do, is enough motivation for myself to want to be able to fly part time with them.

Bring it on I say.

:ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Hmm. Amos2 an ex-Ansett captain??

sounds like bitterness to me. It must be hard working for a major company for years, thinking you've made it. Then the company goes broke.

He's probably dirty that RAAF transport was used to break the unions.

[Chimbu chuckles]

There is lots of overlap within the RAAF/Airline aviation tasking/roles.

Fighter and Bomber pilot are two roles rightly reserved for the young tyros produced by the RAAF's finest...and that is about it.

Anything else can be done by any competent civvy with the desire.

I am with Gnads....open up the reserve and pay em well....but open it up to all airline pilots not just the ex RAAF ones.

[ftrplt]

Anything else can be done by any competent civvy with the desire.

Then let them join up!!!!!


Chimbu,

when you write on topics you are knowledgeable about you are very informative; sometimes you write about things you DONT know about and you come across a little less knowledgeable.

Tankers and AWACS do more than just go round in circles; and the transport guys need to learn a lot more theory and systems knowledge, as well as regularly practice extremely perishable skills that airline only experienced guys wouldn't even know where to start.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Fighter pilots often fly tankers, VIP etc, when their days in fighters are over...are you saying it's so specialised any competent airline pilot couldn't be taught how to do it?

We actually have to learn systems and other stuff in the civvy world too you know.

C130 Trashies used to fly in and out of Chimbu on training flights when I was based there...the pilots used to tell me it was the most challenging flying they did in 'normal' trash hauling...not including special ops obviously...The Caribou pilots used to fly in and out of other more challenging strips in PNG. All of them were places I flew Twotters in and out of all day every day...not to mention scores of other strips I used as part of my daily bread that the RAAF would not go near.

Those of us 'lucky' enough to have flown on Bouganville during the 'war' on that island flew tactically to minimise exposure to ground fire..we were shot at and virtually all the civvy choppers operating down there were hit and several pilots/engineers were wounded. One of our Twin Otters came back with nearly 30 bullet holes, one dead pax, one wounded pax and the rudder nearly blown off the verticle stab by a grenade that exploded under the tail as the pilot was getting airbourne from a strip we flew into deap in BRA territory. The pilot rolled the aeroplane over and dove into the valley off the end of the strip and they stopped firing to watch him crash...must have been pissed off when he rolled upright again and flew away...he didn't even take stress leave after that flight...he just kept working because we were short of pilots. The passenger cabin looked like and abbotoir. He went airline flying and having attained jet command decided it wasn't really his 'thing' and still flys Twin Otters and King Airs in PNG.

One of my mates landed at a strip one day and saw all these people laying around the parking bay....it wasn't until he shut down one engine he heard all the firing and realised he'd landed in the middle of a fire fight. He loaded all the wounded then flew them out. He nows flys for CX.

My only claim to fame down there was seeing tracer pass by my wing while enroute between two strips in SW Bouganville at < 50'...I got to where I was going (I was doing shuttles getting people out), but the weather was really bad and I couldn't quite line up between the hills to land so I gave it away and flew home..that airstrip/village fell to the BRA before I landed back at home base 40 minutes later. That same day I roared over a tree line at dot feet to be confronted with a village being burnt to the ground by BRA rebels..I pushed over into the clearing and flew through the village at full power and 20' as all the rebels on the left side watched me fly past with their mouths hanging open...too stunned to even draw a bead:ok: I didn't get hit so I suppose those on the rhs were similarly caught unawares:E

I have the deepest respect for what military pilots do that is specific to military flying but the RAAF is not the sole repository of all dangerous or difficult flying. Everything you do in the airforce is merely a learned skill...some of it needs young fit pilots who haven't yet developed a sense of their own mortality but most is just flying.

Experienced bush and airline pilots could be used in a reserve capacity as VIP pilots, awacs pilots, trashies, tanker pilots etc with, relatively speaking, minimal training...releasing the full time, RAAF trained, young tyros for the stuff that needs balls of titanium.

If we ever find ourselves in a really big war again you could be sure that the experience that resides in civvy street would be put to good use.

Or is the real problem that the RAAF is afraid that really experienced civvy pilots will pollute the RAAF culture?

The other real problem of using experienced civvy pilots in roles they were suited to would be the resulting lack of 'transferable to an airline' skills gained by RAAF pilots wanting to go airline flying after their ROSO.:ok:

[ftrplt]

no, all I am saying is that the skills (and more particularly the maintenance of) and the systems and threat knowledge required does not lend itself to airline pilots without previous military experience; in a Reserve environment (especially in a Service the size of the RAAF).

Note; I am talking airline pilots without previous military experience here.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Fair enough....it would certainly require study when away from the periodic periods of reserve duty...I would love it but maybe I am not typical.

[Condition lever]

You can't be seriously comparing flying a C130 into a particular strip (Chimbu) with a Twotter?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Why not?....I also flew Banderaintes and DHC7s into Chimbu...a C130 is just another aeroplane. One of the C130 trainee captains I met had 1100 TT and was on his final international command check....he bounced so hard on landing he burst some of his tyres and they needed to send another C130 with a jack and spares....he seemed mortal to me.

[Condition lever]

The issue was never that C130 pilots are any more capable than you, Chimbu.
The point is that a C130 is a fark of a lot bigger than a Twotter. The critical aspects of ensuring that you achieve a landing touchdown zone at Chimbu are a magnitude more difficult in a C130 than a Twotter or a Caribou for that matter. I am sure that there are other strips that are equally challenging for a Twotter that C130s can not operate into.
BTW C130 final international command checks are not done into PNG highland strips. This is a totally different qualification that is done when the proposed Captain has far more experience than you have quoted. Usually at least a QFI.

[Chimbu chuckles]

This was nearly 20 years ago during my first year in PNG..the first of nearly 14...I am merely quoting what he told me...or my memories version. The poor bloke was mortified at having broken his aeroplane.

I did not take your post as an attack on my qualifications or whatever ability I may be blessed with.

My only point is that a large proportion of RAAF flying could be done by any competent, well trained, experienced civvy pilot.

I would love the opportunity to join as a reservist and use up some of my 8 weeks annual leave to relieve the boredom of long haul wide body flying. Who knows...after 9500 hrs in PNG in everything from C180s to F28s I might be able to teach mountain flying to young RAAF trashies.:ok:

[Condition lever]

I am in no doubt that you or someone else with similar experience would have a great deal to pass on.
I don't think the RAAF considers it is the font of all knowledge and would not benefit from outside experience give the current low levels it suffers from at the moment.
Have you approached you local recruitment office to see what is available? And if not, why not?

[Chimbu chuckles]

I have flown with lots of ex RAAF knucks and trashies. Several of whom were retired Wing Commanders off F111s who, in those days, still went back and flew F111s as reservists ....I asked them 10 years ago and was told that the active reserve was only available to ex RAAF pilots.

I have yet to see or hear anything which suggests that has changed and they would be interested in a 44 yr old, slightly:ok:overweight, balding airline pilot/ ex bush pilot.

If that changes I will be there in a flash...I am almost finished raising my teenage daughter single handed....and looking for a new challenge:ok:

[ftrplt]

My only point is that a large proportion of RAAF flying could be done by any competent, well trained, experienced civvy pilot.


and this is where we are trying to say that you are wrong.

A very SMALL amount of military flying can be done by airline reservists; and is pretty much being done now and has been for years by ex-military; basically instructing and unit test flying.

'Sign-on' to 'Sign-off' is only half of what's involved in military operations.

P.S: Your C130 example will be landing lights out on NVG's; inserting troops into a possibly hot landing zone.

Whilst teaching low flying, can you also pass on gouge for avoiding shoulder launched SAM's; detection and avoidance of small arms fire, at the same time listening to the air war on big picture frequency???

[Gnadenburg]

The Gentleman Aviators- A RAAF Tanker Tale.

The year is 2012. The RAAF's A330 tankers are fully operational with 33 Squadron at it's new Amberly base. Simulator is in place. Qantas provides maintainence support ably through generous Defence contracts. The project has been a resounding success with the aircraft proven capable in it's role on operations with allied air forces.

Due poor project management a decade earlier, RAAF fighter strength is down to three understrength squadrons. Operationally, the RAAF has little ability to provide more than token fighter support with US expeditionary operations around the globe. A solid alliance partner, Government committs a good portion of the RAAF A330 fleet, in support of USAF, USN & USMC air operations in places as far afield as Kandahar & Al Udeid. The Americans, due their own poor tanker replacement project, see the highly capable RAAF A330's as the most useful defence asset Australia can provide ( number one being Australian Army special operations expertise ).

With three RAAF tankers on permament loan to the US, a token training capability is maintained at home- with servicing requirments one aircraft shuffles between Amberley & Tindal providing support for Hornet, C17 and Wedgetail squadrons.

Crewing requirments are at wartime surge levels- not seen since Vietnam Iroquois needs . The aircraft and associated systems have proven highly reliable. Defence initiates "Project Gentleman Aviators". Buy back long-lost RAAF pilot talent, with lucrative tax free pay and bring A330 crewing levels to wartime requirments.

The single operational A330 leaves Amberley for a two week Tindal deployment. The crew includes a detachment commander, who is the only regular. The three other pilots are RAAF Reservists lured back onto reserve flying status by Project Gentleman Aviator. The Reservists are all current Airbus pilots and all are former RAAF pilots- two from transport and one from a fighter background ( whose exchange posting with USMC has proved invaluable in liason and standardisation of tanking SOP's when working with the Americans ).

After the airborne refuelling of a C17 enroute north, the 330 lands at Tindal in the early, hot afternoon. Cheap beer, swimming pool and mess- not neccessarily in that order. Being well remunerated, the beer tastes better than an airline nightstop.

The next day, the flying programme involves a morning and afternoon launch of the tanker. Each sortie, between four an five hours duration.

The A330 departs Tindal, and with ATC obligations met, is passed over to a Wedgetail circling not much beyond the circuit area. A networked air force being all the rage, and for the benefit of reservist military currency, the Wedgetail, via datalink, directs the tanker to it's holding track, positioned advantageously to support ingressing, visiting USMC F18's, using the Delamere weapons range. The tanker track is moved to support an egress off the target, providing the Marines with another hook up. Completing realistic, live weapons training in unhindered airspace, with a coalition tanker in support. The training value here can't be replicated at their Japanese home base.

The A330 is vectored closer to base, in support of RAAF Hawk air-air refuelling. That done, Wedgetail directs the tanker crew to another holding track, in support of 75 Squadron. This is the beginning of the mission currency of the reservist crew. The aircraft's defensive suite is run through it's paces- active and passive countermeasures, culminating in their simultaneous use with the aircraft, in it's limited ability to manoeuvre against a fighter threat.

Wedgetail positions the protagonists in the pre-briefed, set piece defensive-offensive moves. One Hornet will simulate a battlespace saturation and "break through" of an enemy fighter; the Wedgetails defensive CAP must shootdown the enemy before the tanker is hit. Profile 1 assumes an early model, Indonesian if you like, F16. So it begins. Once alerted, the A330 goes into a well orhestrated defensive move. Thrustlevers idle, full lateral sidestick, half speedbrake, 5 degrees nose down. Rollout 90 degrees offset, 5000-7000 feet lower with the magic box doing it's thing including chaff deployment. Continue the turn at 67 degrees bank and power up- rollout as per Wedgetail's instructions. Idle engines, full fwd sidestick, countermeasure turret does it's stuff if the enemy hasn't been shotdown- it has. Release sidestick, don't over G, climb power and reposition.

Wedgetail sets up profile 2. Indonesian Su27 "break through". Same as before, more active role from Wedgetail this time. An escape vector which buys the most time or gives the best geometry for defending F18's to put missiles on the target.

Games over and the Reservists mission current. A330 "dir to" mouth of the Daly River. 300kts @ 1500 feet, croc spotting before a run into the circuit area at Tindal.

The morning and afternoon sorties are virtually mirror image. Except, the permament pilot not as aircraft current and undertakes practice Non-Precision approaches at Tindal with overshoot, followed by an autoland. At $15,000 an hour, the regular's currency more expensive than keeping a Reservist on the payrole for 6 months.

Gentleman Aviators. Force multiply the Force Multipliers!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Is flying with NVG harder than flying through the mountain valleys and landing at Chimbu in the dark and rain in a beatup old C185 without even a working light in the compass? I was leading a NSCA medivac kingair in and held clear while talking him around the circuit in the dark and then landed after him. It was crewed by a couple of ex RAAF Bou pilots who hadn't been to Chimbu since the early 70s...it was my backyard...brave and trusting lads:D

Shoulda seen the looks on their faces next morning as they surveyed the surrounding mountains before departing:}

The equipment and medical staff they carried kept a young Ozzie alive long enough to get him to a hospital in Townville....all we had was a handpump ventilator, a catholic priest/doctor and our wives taking it in turns to keep him 'alive' until help arrived...he would not have survived until morning without the NSCA team. They had been unable to find Chimbu in the weather and failing light and diverted to Goroka...I went in the 185 and convinced them to follow me back.

This is not a pissing contest...my point is only that much RAAF flying is NOT tactical in nature...or any more challenging than a lot of flying done by civvies.

Ever watched a crop duster dust cotton at night....without NVGs? I am sure he would be as adept if the aircraft was fitted with guns and napalm or WP marker rockets.

RAAF pilots are not born they are trained.

[ernestkgann]

Mr chuckles, I think most people appreciate that mil pilots are no better, in general terms , than their civvy colleagues but are the beneficiaries of extensive training in whatever field they fly in.
This training gives relatively senior mil pilots an extensive 'corporate' knowledge that can't be replicated by just employing an airline guy who would be more than capable of doing the job. I have been out for a few years but I understand there is no particular shortage of pilots, just that the organisation is short of those kinds of fellas who have ticked all the boxes and could bring something to the table for min cost and time.
This corporate stuff starts with how and when to salute and includes security clearances attained over time, mil courses, exchange tours, experience on different types, staff courses, instructors courses, weapons courses, nbc trg and so on.
The advantage for the ADF in retaining or regaining these kinds of people is that min resources can be allocated to getting them back on line and being productive in the service, usually in a trg role because that's what everyone does until the conflict begins. If it's really big then you increase trg and enlist anyone suitable to do the job as line swine.
Who knows we may be approaching that time again and everyone will get their wish.
edited for paranoia

[Chimbu chuckles]

Fair enough. All good points.

I am not very good at saluting...and am probably beyond the age where I would be prepared to learn...more likely to tell some young Sqdn Ldr to **** off outa my face:}:E :ok:

"Pilot Officer Chimbu don't you salute senior officers?"

"Ummm yeah....are you one?" :}

[tinpis]

Besides you'd look silly with a mustache chuck http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/sex_anal.gif

[Chimbu chuckles]

I certainly did when I had one back in the 80s...someone said I looked like a 70s porn star so I shaved it off:hmm:

[tinpis]

Oh you were the one they called Ron Jeremy?

[Chimbu chuckles]

LOL...no a bit taller...more like Johny Holmes:ok:

Although lately more like Ron:{

[ftrplt]

more likely to tell some young Sqdn Ldr to **** off outa my face :} :E :ok:
Thank you for so eloquently supporting my position:D


edited to keep him happy!!;)

[Chimbu chuckles]

LOL...it doesn't seem so threatening with :} :E :ok: after...if ya gonna quote me please do so accurately:ok:

Maybe they should outsource all the flying roles in the RAAF not directly aimed at killing people and breaking their stuff...that way you could just get on with it without all the saluting and cow towing to uniform rank badges?:p ;)

Chuckles:)

[bob55]

The last thing we need is more civilians in the Air Force.

[TurbTool]

bob55, hear, hear, and by the same token more airforce pilots in airlines!

[Taildragger67]

LOL...no a bit taller...more like Johny Holmes:ok:

Although lately more like Ron:{

Don't cry, Chuck, Ron (J, not RAAF) is clearly still getting his shots away!!

[Lord Snot]

The Gentleman Aviators- A RAAF Tanker Tale.

The year is 2012. The RAAF's A330 tankers are fully operational with 33 Squadron at it's new Amberly base....the Wedgetail, via datalink, directs the tanker to it's holding track, positioned advantageously to support ingressing, visiting USMC F18's......

Once alerted, the A330 goes into a well orhestrated defensive move. Thrustlevers idle, full lateral sidestick, half speedbrake, 5 degrees nose down. Rollout 90 degrees offset, 5000-7000 feet lower with the magic box doing it's thing including chaff deployment. Continue the turn at 67 degrees bank (As the French "logic" decides to roll you out of the dangerous steep turn and head you towards the gomers... :rolleyes:)and power up- rollout as per Wedgetail's instructions. Idle engines, full fwd sidestick, countermeasure turret does it's stuff if the enemy hasn't been shotdown- it has. Release sidestick, don't over G, climb power and reposition....mouth of the Daly River. 300kts @ 1500 feet, croc spotting before a run into the circuit area at Tindal.God you've got your hand on it Gnadenburglar!!! Love it!!


But I especially enjoyed:
.....well orhestrated defensive move. Thrustlevers idle, full lateral sidestick.....Continue the turn at 67 degrees bank and.....Idle engines, full fwd sidestick....As the plastic winglets tear off the Blunderbus under the "strain"..... :rolleyes: Someone's definitely got his hand on a stick... where do you come up with this stuff, Gnadenbooger???

...mouth of the Daly River. 300kts @ 1500 feet, croc spotting before a run into the.... Wham.....!! Birdstrike.


Classic stuff, gnads. Keep it coming mate! I love ya work....!! :ok:


PS: Just about anyone can do tac flying on NVGs just like just about anyone can do airline flying, ILSs in low vis, low vis take-offs, etc, but not always WELL.

And just about anyone can easily fcuk up any of the above, MIL or otherwise and end up in heaven with Col. Sanders and Kamal....... and they do.

[Arm out the window]

Col. Sanders isn't in heaven - he's turning around slowly in a big spit oven with a giant chook on the controls. And surely Kamahl's not dead yet, is he? Best preserved 60 year old ever...all that Dilmah.

[Gnadenburg]

As the plastic winglets tear off the Blunderbus under the "strain"..... :rolleyes: Someone's definitely got his hand on a stick... and Wham.....!! Birdstrike.

No they won't Lord Snot. The whole manuever described, is envelope protected. If you choose to overspeed- and with a fighter coming after you and your hundred tons of fuel you may well do- only then bank is limited to 45 degrees beyond the normal 67 degrees. The only "G" risk is a hamfisted recovery from an overspeed, where a pilot's stick input is summed to the automatic 1.75g pitchup. This is not taught at Touluse, however, if RAAF utilises experienced reservists it will discover a multitude of on the job knowledge!

You took it too literally. I was trying to create the most complex and demanding flying manuever ( outside the mission management itself ) to show that ex-RAAF pilots, current on Airbus courtesy of the airlines, wouldn't be too troubled by the perishability of "tanking" skills. Basically, hinting at the fact, the aircraft easy to fly and the defensive countermeasures suite, largely automatic.

No. You wouldn't fly a QF 330 at 300kts, 1500'- you would 'stable' in approach config in an airliner here. However, boys will be boys, and the tanker guys will get away with a bit of shenanigans. Why? Because they may be required to refuel tactically at lower levels despite the risk of birdstrike- avoiding a ground based radar horizon or a new generation of very long range Russian SAM's designed to go after them.

Not that there was any ever rational debate about using unproven, civilian pilots as reservists when similar airline experienced, but former RAAF pilots, could be recruited for similar.

But you would be a good case in point why there is so much risk in utilising the unknown- don't know your systems, failure to maximise aircraft performance and a very conservative green band.

BTW. Happy to go the tech forum and talk Airbus envelopes and FAA birdstrike certification.

[Lord Snot]

I was trying to create the most complex and demanding flying manuever ( outside the mission management itself ) to show that ex-RAAF pilots, current on Airbus courtesy of the airlines, wouldn't be too troubled....... etcSounds more like you're taking a leaf out of Dale Brown's tragic dong-beating, gee-whiz stories about pimped-up B-52s and other fairy-tale wet dream stuff as only a blunt nav could do.

Are you sure you're not an F/E??

Do you write for Australian Aviation in your spare time because I seriously think you'd be good at it.

Not that there was any ever rational debate about using unproven, civilian pilots as reservists when similar airline experienced, but former RAAF pilots, could be recruited for similar.Exactly so why all the chook-choking about tanker top guns???

On the other hand, in "Armageddon", the President, no less, allowed some drunken anally-reamed crop-duster pilot fly a Hornet so it can't be all that hard.

[Gnadenburg]

Lord Snot

You're very hard to follow; even in sarcastic humour. Dale Brown? WTF. Are you talking in Da Vinci Code?

Again, you take me too literally. The foundation of my argument was that Defence Minister Nelson wanted to buy back expired defence expertise from the civilian sector. Using Nelson's concept, for six grand per month, per crew, legacy airliners could be crewed by Reservists. So, for a million dollars a year, the A330 fleet could be heavy crewed. Expensive training resources released elsewhere.

Of course Defence won't consider it; or anything of the sort. This is about politics ie: the ability of government to offer lucrative packages to senior Defence bureaucrats and near expired brass who toe a controversial government line or policy ( children overboard, JSF etc ). The ADF is an iceberg- what's above sea level representing it's fighting worth. What's below, is the non-essential support and bureaucracy, built up since the early 20th century and having failed us miserably in a number of wars.

Returning to you from earlier. And your Airbus knowledge suggests you are J* trained with the limited depth that LCC's provide.

But you would be a good case in point why there is so much risk in utilising the unknown- don't know your systems, failure to maximise aircraft performance and a very conservative green band.

But let us pretend you are former RAAF, good core skills set, allowing you to overcome the vagueries of self-funded airline training to a degree, and now an F/O at J*. You have taken a pay cut and have paid 30 thousand dollars for the Airbus endorsement. Today's domestic airlines not such a pretty financial picture. Defence could and should utilise this to it's advantage! If a RAAF reserve programme in place, with lucrative tax free package and benefits on offer, you would be joining a pretty long signing up queue.

Have you tried ripping the wings off on your Airbus Flt Sim yet? Doesn't do it eh. :cool:

[Jetsbest]

Not commenting on your posts but...

Dale Brown wrote 'Flight of the Old Dog'; an awful, over-hyped, spurious techno-babble-edged tome only a publisher with an impressionable readership could love! I've not touched another thing from that author I was so disgusted... Evidently I'm in the minority though; he's done several books since then.

[Lord Snot]

Well Gnadenburger, I just think some people were a little concerned by your energetic gherkin-jerkin' about it all.

I stand by my assertion that you might ghost-write for Aussie Aviation. Not "On the Airwaves", I hope...!!:ugh:

Still you sound like you know more about it all than I do so I will support your calls for, variously:

100s of F-22s,
100s of Strike Eagles,
100s of E/F models,
100s of Wedgies
100s of M1A1s,
100s of GlobalHawks,
100s of C-17s
100s of AH-64s (too late - more French crap coming!!),
Dozens of Ticonderogas (why not??),
Flare kits,
Flat-tops,
Lasers,
Spec-Ops helos,
TacNukes,
More battalions,
A Marine Corps,
Less hospitals,
Some LSHs,
Mk19s,
Hand-held mini-guns like that guy in Predator had,
Our own SDI platform,
X-ray specs for every grunt,
etc,
and any other kool stuff I over-looked....!:ok:

I like the way you think. Gnads for PM.....!!! Or Defence Minister at least, with Immigration thrown in as well.

I did find the description of the warry roll-and-pull-through moves in the BlunderBus hysterically amusing, though. Makes me want to be a 'bus driver like you!!

Lack of knowledge suggests either a Jetstar pilot or someone lucky enough to never have had to sink to flying the Bus. Let's stick with the J* theory........ :ok: I like it!

[Gnadenburg]

:)

I will take the Immigration portfolio Snot. Because in these troubled times, in this troubled world, where civilisations clash, the best means of defence is, don't let bastards come here in the first place!

I can't do that stream writing and thinking as well as you.