JEA CRJ fleet

[BusBoy]

Heard that JEA / British European are "80% sure" of disbanding the CRJ fleet with the expansion of the RJs.
I understand that the guys on permanant contracts will be brought across in seniority order but for the low seniority and "lifed" contracts things do not seem as rosy.
V v sad to hear of this in these supposed times of a pilot shortage.

[BavarianBoy]

Seems the CRJ fleet ran a 2 million loss in 2000 and BE have plans for a severe fleet rationalisation.. too many types with too much cost on training etc!! only took them 2 years to realise. Feel sorry for CRJ drivers but at least there are jobs a plenty for jet drivers.
Who knows, especially with the CEO's departure today, things in EXT are very nervous with more resignations rumoured to follow very very soon.
Last one out don't forget to switch out the lights!!

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Gentleman, less haste more speed!

[derbyram]

BavarianBoy, I know someone fairly in the know at BE who tells me that whilst the CEO may well have resigned today, there are unlikely to be further resignations, infact there's great optimism for the future.

[flaps8]

Seems that 4 Crj,s 3 146 - 100,s and 2 leased dash 8,s are set for the chop by the end of the year ahead of the new Rjx fleet.And we hear the whole company is up for sale !
gissajob i can do that.

[MOR]

Hmmm, let me see. Ignoring the CRJ's for a moment...

3x 146-100? But we only have 2 of them...

2 leased Dash 8s? Well, that would make sense as they were only short-term leases to cover until the Q400 comes on line.

The CRJs were acquired to operate AF routes that AF then reneged on. They were always going to struggle- BE would never have bought them for their own routes. Highly unsurprising to see them go...

[BavarianBoy]

Lets hope you are right Derbyram, but things will only get better if there are radical changes, I don't know of anyone who is happy at BE and their crews are nearly all actively seeking better employment.The word is that there will be another mass exodus like the one in '98.
The CRJ's have to be kept for three years under the deal struck with Bombardier originally but I believe EXT are trying to negotiate to swap them back in return for Q 400 dash's. They were for AF routes but funny enough AF changed their minds.
Two 146's are going to Aerospace under the RJX deal but management got rid of them early, I believe it to be AO and AM, but that may not be correct.
The CEO is believed to have been asked to jump before the inevitable push by the board due to poor financial performance and a few dodgy decisions, the rumour and i stress rumour is that more will follow and then progress in a rationalisation phase to stem losses could be made.
From my experience, BE crews on the whole were a great bunch to work with and their efforts, without reward, are what helped the company expand so much in the past. However there has been alot of despair at management decisions involving crew treatment recently and not much belief in company strategy, perhaps the Board sensed the same.With any luck jobs will be safe though if I were a contracter I would start looking for an alternative to fall back on.

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Gentleman, less haste more speed!

[This message has been edited by BavarianBoy (edited 20 June 2001).]

[derbyram]

Thanks BavarianBoy, your contact within BE looks to be more in the 'know' than mine.

[idlereverse]

Bavarian Boy Glad to see that you are on the ball!
If you get sick of asking the monkey speak to the organ grinder!

[pitotheat]

I am surprised this is not on the company private forum where a more frank and discreet discussion could be entered into.

The CRJ discussion on the company forum is rather lacking in input compared to this.

[BavarianBoy]

Another point,

If the CRJ does go, which fleet do the crews get moved to?? if it is back to the Dash or even Q-400, do they maintain jet salaries or revert to turboprop salaries??
Heard a rumour this afternoon that those who came from the dash shall return there while those who swapped from the 146 shall return there. As for the direct entry guys..... Maersk i suppose. C.V's a flying out again, everyone with enough "time" is trying to escape!!Lets just hope this is not the beginning of the end as it would be bad news not just for all at BE but industry wide.

Good luck to all, as someone once said, "if you want a guarantee, buy a toaster, if you want loyalty, buy a dog!!"

[RAFAT]

BavarianBoy, let me tell you, we more senior pilots, who stayed on the DHC and avoided the CRJ because of its weak position in the Company, are watching the salary issue like hawks.

[Rumble]

For those of you who are crj rated; Maersk are getting four extra crj's within a year (dropping one 200 & getting 5 700's). And they pay more.

[Lou]

pitot heat, I agree

[barcode]

Raw Data - any comment? Any comment on the 146 being pulled out of Aberdeen? Any comment about an entire Scottish base's worth of pilots applying for Easyjet? What was that you said on these very pages about a month ago about how c**p the 737 was?

[Raw Data]

Yes, I have plenty to say, but not on a public forum. Very disappointed that some of my colleagues appear unable to contain themselves. Not particularly professional in my view.

I have never said that the 737 is c**p- it is a great aircraft. However, it can't do stuff the 146 can do (no surprise, it isn't designed to), and it has had some serious, occasionally unresolved safety issues. Those two topics are the only ones I have discussed in relation to 737s. For what it's worth, I spent a bit of time flying a 737 some time back, and really enjoyed the experience.

[Deep Cover Gecko]

Maybe a more dicussions might happen on the company forum if more people were allowed on it. I know of several people that have applied for access only to be told that as they aren't pilots they don't need to view it and can't make constructive points!

[Raw Data]

And that is complete nonsense. The private forum is open to ANY BE employee, and as I am the moderator, I can tell you that flight deck make up about 60% of the membership, cabin crew about 10%, the rest are from all parts of the company, including directors and managers. It has ALWAYS been so.

I can also confirm that no current BE employee has ever been refused the password, no post has ever been edited or removed by me, and anyone who feels hard done by should contact me for the password.

Kindly get your facts right next time, gecko. You aren't even in the ballpark.

[BavarianBoy]

Raw Data,
what is wrong, scared the public realise the state BE is in?? At least the current Trustees seem to have the B##ls to make changes and admit that things need to change.The major reason some don't like the company forum is that it could lead to retribution from EXT if you speak your mind... maybe not but from friends and former collegues who are there that is what they feel.
Barcode, I also heard loads of applications to Easy, both in Scotland and N.I. mind you the company may well hope some leave to ease their burden!!
As I stated b4, hope all goes well for the crews, they deserve better than they ever got so far!!

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Gentleman, less haste more speed!

[mercury_7]

As an'escapee'from JEA it is with great interest that I follow recent events. Who knows what may happen with the departure of the CEO, and with rumours of more resignations and possibly a fleet rationalisation this may bode well for my friends who still linger there. I hope that the 'CEO designate' will take firm steps to improve such areas as crew rest, you never know, with a few hours rest in them the morale might pick up too.
---------------------------------------------
Keep her lit!

[This message has been edited by mercury_7 (edited 25 June 2001).]

[Raw Data]

BavarianBoy, as usual you are wide of the mark.

BE continues to be in a much healthier state than most of its competitors. Mind you, I wouldn't expect you to recognise that as you clearly have an "anti-BE" agenda. Reading your posts, it is very clear that most of what you say is either deliberately misleading, or at best a half-truth. Some of it is not true at all.

For example, there are no "resignations rumour to follow very very soon". There is no "severe fleet rationalisation", the fleet size will be bigger in two years than it is now. Whilst you may not know anybody who is "happy at BE", I know plenty who fit that description- especially those who have worked for the competition. You say "two 146's (sic) are going to Aerospace under the RJX deal", but in fact ALL the -100 and -200 146s are going back under that deal (and being replaced with RJXs). AO and AM are still flyng the line. We have 12 RJX orders in- now, how many -200 and -300 aircraft do we have? You should know, being so knowledgeable about BE... (for everbody else, our aircraft numbers will be higher at the completion of the RJX acquisition).

Very, very few CEOs go willingly, as you should know. The reasons are not primarily the ones you gave either. To say that "there has been a lot of despair at management decisions involving crew treatment recently" is completely misleading, as only a tiny minority of crew feel that way. By the way, crew numbers will probably rise with the introduction of the Q400 and RJX- one of the proud records of BE is that they have NEVER made crews redundant (which, again, is more than can be said for most of their competitors). Finally, as any vaguely competent analyst could tell you, it is not the "beginning of the end", rather the end of the beginning.

If you can't understand a simple concept like keeping company business on the company forum, then you also won't understand that there can be NO retribution from EXT over private forum posts- anonymity being guaranteed. Thought you knew that.

If you must take a poke at BE, do try and verify your information before typing...

[Best Western]

At least BE have made a decision to cut costs, and the best way to do this is to remove a aircraft type.

I have been critical of BE in the past... but finally they seem to be getting their act together!

Like most regional carriers BE have found that its much easier to make money flying on routes with no competition. Many of the thinner routes that BE operate on would not support a second carrier (all routes ex EXE) or Jet operations (All routes ex EXE).

As The CRJ would not suit EXE, and cant operate into LCY, it leaves BHD, which is coming under increased low cost pressure.

BE will probably follow BRALs smart scottish move and exit BRS and STN - Belfast. Hence the need to remove some aircraft from the fleet.

With the RJX replacing the 146 and the Dash operation firmly in place... it leaves the CRJ as the weakest link.

[lineup]

May be, our CEO got a good deal :)

[SussexPSR]

Raw Data...
You say no crew have ever been made redundant at JY....flight crew maybe, however cabin crew have been - I was a #1 at the short lived LGW base & got a nice big redundancy cheque (not...) at the end of winter 93/94 as did around 15 other c/crew....a complete cock up of management at the time, notably Cabin Services & Personnel.

[be142736]

Raw Data......
I don't know which BE you work for but here in EXT things aren't as rosey as you make out. As things stand at the moment you can expect to see the following anounced in the next month.
1 CRJ Fleet will be going back in return for 2 D8-400
2 The 2 146's and 360 that are owned will be sold at the end of the summer.
3 On delivery of the first 2 D8-400, the 2 D8-300 on loan will be returned.
4 ABZ will shut at the end of the summer.

While no pilots will go there will be a loss of cabin crew. I was told by Rostering that we have already had 62 cabin crew resign since January!!!

Things certainly aren't as bright as you make out!!!!!

[mercury_7]

Hmmm, just who is Raw Data kidding. After reading this evenings vitriolic posting from him(or her), and after talking to my friends at BEA things are not as rosy in the garden as he would have us believe. Granted the post by BavariaBoy may be speculation based on information from second sources, however I urge Raw Data to get real and enter the real world because you certainly aren't flying the rosters my coleagues are or you would get with the programme and try to improve conditions for the troops. By the way are you 'management' perchance and no offence is intended for those management bods who are trying to square things up!
------------------------------------------
Keep her lit!


[This message has been edited by mercury_7 (edited 25 June 2001).]

[BavarianBoy]

Thanks BE142736, Me thinks Raw Data lives in dreamland!!
RD, i am certainly not anti-BE, just stating the truth, sorry if i am not gullable to believe your positive spin. BE need to lose crew in the coming months to avoid lay offs, and that was a remark from on high!!
They need quite a few to go, hence they hope to hack everyone off by the lack of pay rise in Sept then they hope enough will leave to save them having to off load crews.Wake up RD, things are not good!
The resignations rumour.... well, we shall see, and as for the fleet rationalisation, well, I think BE142736 covered that!!
As I have said lots, the staff at BE are great and are the company's best asset and I do not wish to be anti BE, I really hope they turn it around, and with the planned cost cutting I think they will. Unfortunately,crews again will get shafted by management cock ups!! I hope the happy crews you talk about RD are not in your fantasy, for their sake!!


------------------
Gentleman, less haste more speed!

[Raw Data]

Well, BavarianBoy, if I am living in dreamland, you are living on a completely different planet.

As many do, you confuse the standard pilot whingeing with reality. Many might complain, but very, very few have actually resigned (and there are LOTS of jobs out there for experienced crews).

I'm willing to bet that there will be no pilot layoffs (and that also from someone "on high").

Regarding your alleged "resignations", any that might have gone would have done so by now. More idle speculation.

Regarding fleet "rationalisation", ,NO decisions have yet been taken.

mercury_7: No, I am not flying the rosters your colleagues are. I fly the roster I am given, and very friendly it is too: this month, about 60 hours flying, 39 sectors, 11 days off and a few meetings thrown in. That is fairly standard for my base. Some are better, some worse- hard to comment without seeing your colleagues' rosters. For your information, I am a representative on the internal BE employee forum, so, yes, I am trying to improve things.

be142736: NONE of the events you mention have yet been decided upon. At least two of them are complete bollocks. The third one is also complete bollocks if you got the type right. The second, well, all those aircraft have been for sale for a very long time (over two years).

By the way, EXT is a very small flying base (probably the smallest), and is therefore hardly a good guage of general company morale.

SussexPSR: correct, I referred only to flight deck. Having said that, I would be very surprised if cabin crew made redundant were not offered jobs elsewhere within the company.

[BavarianBoy]

Keep dreaming RD, I certainly do not mean to offend you personally but from my past expeiences and a lot of friends at BE you are in dreamland. However, maybe the past weeks events are a step in the right direction but I would think crews know a lot more needs to be done. Remember, the first step to rehabilitation is to admit that there is a problem. People are far from happy, EXT can only get better, it is just a pity CRJ crews are the losers!
Read the threads and make up your own mind what BE crews think... it ain't good!
What is being reaped now by the management is what they have been sowing for years, hopefully it is not too late!

Good luck!BB

[BavarianBoy]

Well said Mercury_7.. yes i am speculating but it is educated however i do not claim to be 100% correct but certainly not too far wide of the mark, not so far anyhow. Well done on your escape, don't destroy the tunnel though, others are behind us!!haha!

RD, keep dreaming... oh, try this, repeat this "My name is Raw Data and I am Kidding myself" It may work but i have my doubts!

good luck all..BB

------------------
Gentleman, less haste more speed!

[SussexPSR]

RD....sorry to split hairs, however the redundancies I spoke of no one was offered positions at other bases despite c/c vacancies available at BHD/BLK/LBA/JER...not that any of us would have taken them...one of the main reason that the c/c base was closedwas the fact that DD in personnel was paying LGW #1s on the Line Trainer scale i.e. £1500 or so more than other bases #1s....we never knew why at LGW & neither did the rest of the company, but we certainly didnt complain!!
I'm not bitter at having been made redundant by JY at all (I've gone on to bigger & better things since), however in terms of on board service, when virtually none of the c/crew at other bases had jet experience, we got little praise or thanks for helping with the introduction of the 146s.
I have some very fond memories of my time at JY & hope for the sake of those there now, esp. c/crew, are being treated with a little more respect & recognition - I can't judge Flight Crew management at the time, but Personnel & the Britannia mafia in Cabin Services were certainly close to the bottom of their learning curve...

[Raw Data]

BavarianBoy, much as I hate to prolong your fishing expedition, you are still wide of the mark.

I hope you don't really think that the few BE pilots to contribute here represent the views of the entire pilot workforce. PPRuNe by its very nature tends to bring out the whingers (due to its' anonymous nature), and that is clearly reflected in what a very tiny sample post from time to time. All you are trying to do is ride the crest of a (very small) wave of dissent.

That you refuse to acknowledge the aspects of the company that make it streets ahead of comparable employers, is proof enough of your agenda here. It is also typical of the "whinger" mentality often seen on this forum.

For others, the company long ago recognised the problems brought on by years of very rapid growth. As equipment and pilot numbers soared, the infrastructure struggled to keep up and still does. The company put in place some very highly-credentialed people (many of them ex-BA) to address these issues, and progress is being made- however it will always be slow (as in any airline).

When I joined just over three years ago, we had a bit more than half the pilots we now do. Many, many people have got their first jobs at BE and the majority are happy to have had the opportunity- never mind the ones we took on as commanders. I now find myself in the upper 30% of the seniority list.

Even a very casual perusal of this forum will reveal lots of disatisfaction, spread over many airlines. Some of the complaints from pilots in prominent UK airlines make BEs' problems seem minor.

Now, I don't expect BavarianBoy to show any sense of balance here, but the reality is not as he tells it- I know that because I fly the line virtually every day. What you hear on the line is NOT what BavarianBoy would have you believe...

[barcode]

Raw Data raises a number of very interesting points. Bavarian Boy, unfortunately for RD, tells it as it is from the “coalface” viewpoint in BE and is absolutely on the numbers with every fact he reports.

Raw Data – two points you might like to consider:

- The fact that you have been in BE for a mere 3 years and are already 30% of the way down the list is not strictly indicative of the rate at which the company has expanded, it is substantially down to the number of pilots senior to you who have left. If you don’t believe me, compare your seniority number on the day you joined to the number you have now - a lot of very talented people have woken up, smelt the coffee and left.

- I suggest that you are, in your pseudo-management guise, out of touch with, at very best the troops at large, and at very worst – and more alarmingly – the troops at your own base. My boss from a previous life is well placed on the recruitment side of a successful orange low-cost operator and I believe your entire base is trying to leave. As to how that reflects on you as their leader, or on the BE operation as a whole is a matter of subjective interpretation.




[This message has been edited by barcode (edited 26 June 2001).]

[Raw Data]

Oh, give it a rest barcode, you don't know what you are on about.

First of all, I AM at the coalface, unlike BavarianBoy. My observations are first-hand.

Second, at my base there is only one captain- me. All the F/O's may have applications in- I wouldn't want to speak for them, but I have no problem believing that. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that they are all looking to go (all 5 of them). The PRIMARY reason that most want to leave is to move on to a larger airline operating either Boeing or Airbus aircraft. It has very, very little to do with their current working conditions. This situation is SOP for virtually every F/O in airlines of our size, and also very common in the likes of Easy where most want to move to bigger types.

When I was an F/O, I had CV's out everywhere and updated them constantly (flying a shed does that to you). The situation you describe is so ordinary as to not really be worth putting the newspaper down for...

Moving on to your other points, the resignation rate for the last couple of years has been extremely low (less than 10% per annum). Very few pilots above me have left to go to other jobs (only a couple so far this year), but quite a few have retired.

The entire BE base at EDI MIGHT be trying to leave, but then so is the entire ScotAirways Base, the entire BRAL base, etc (as far as F/O's are concerned, which is what we are talking about).

Those are the facts, not the gossip that BavarianBoy is listening to...

[tilii]

Hello again, RD

Goodness me, what an extraordinary chap you are! When I recently had a little prod at you about your phenomenal posting rate on a thread about bonding, I did not realise it had stung you so much that you would then engineer a means to post 7 times (so far on this one thread) without the posts being added to your overall score (stuck on 1447 for an inordinately long time now, old bean).

Barcode, Bavarian Boy, et al

Give it up lads. Surely the penny must have dropped by now. RD is a very sensitive gentleman who takes deep offence at any criticism of his employer or himself. The deeper the state of offence, the more RD (and RD is a HE, by the way) resorts to throwing his weight around. I ask you, what kind of airline base is it that sports just one bossy, overbearing Captain and 5 First Officers? Perhaps an explanation of RD’s meteoric rise to illustrious status on the BEA seniority list is that his mere presence causes his more senior Captains to retreat from association. One is left to speculate as to whether it became necessary to roster 5 F/Os to share the stressful time spent on the flight deck with our goodly chum RD. :) :) :)

Even when the entire world is at odds with Raw Data, it does not even begin to occur to him that it is he that is out of step. Not once have I seen him take a fellow poster’s point on board, admit the error of his own position, and have the good grace to say he was wrong. It is, I am sorry to say, the nature of the beast. Always it is the world that is wrong. When you sit down carefully and read RD’s posts, it becomes clear that he is a sycophantic, pseudo-intellectual, pedantic nit-picker with little more to keep him happy in this world than being an abundant poster on PPRuNe. His wont in life is to hijack other’s threads and thrust his cyber-rod into as many others’ cyber-orifices as possible. Best, I think, to pack up and walk away from him ... rather like his colleagues in BEA are doing, don’t you know. Bye bye, RD. :) :) :)

[Raw Data]

Oh dear, tilii, I must have really upset you. Once again you have shown your immaturity and lack of intellect by playing the person rather than the ball. I should have expected nothing less... you clearly hate to lose arguments.

Is it worth answering your points? Not really, but, what the hell, there's nothing on the box tonight anyway, and it might entertain some ppruners.

Why one captain and 5 F/Os? Simple. From our base, we only fly to Cat C airfields. All new captains require at least six months on type before they can operate into Cat C airfields (company rule). As it is a relatively new base, most of the captains have bid for the base in order to get their commands, and none have yet completed the required six months. I'm sure that is all far too sensible for you to understand.

Sadly, you have not yet understood that the company to which you refer is actually BE and not BEA. Ah well.

I didn't expect you to understand the concept of loyalty, especially in the face of quite incorrect assertions from people outwith the company they comment on. Such, it seems, is the nature of the beast.

The rest of your personal diatribe is beneath comment, except to say that I find it somewhat sad that you should have to hijack a thread in which you have no interest, in order to personally atack me. The leopard, it seems, is incapable of changing its' spots.

Ah well. Let the audience decide...

[don-ing-ton]

I have many friends who fly for jea,and whilst there are grumbles, they are no less happy than any other airline around. From what I read raw data is far closer to the truth than those who seem to think its clever to constantly run both him and his company down.

[tilii]

My dear Mr XXXXX (no pun intended)

I am not much interested in what your employer calls itself on this day, or its blatant attempt to hijack the reputation earned in Europe by a prior operator of similar nomenclature.

As it happens, I do have quite a keen interest in this thread ... I have friends on the CRJ fleet at BE, or BEA, or whatever your tiny outfit is called. And believe it or not Mr RIGHT, it is actually possible to have a keen interest in a thread without having to leap into print thereon and throw your weight around like you so often do.

Whether the people "outwith the company they comment on" are erroneous in their postings or not is hardly the point, dear chap. Because they are outwith the company, they are not able to comment on the forum moderated by your good self. It is churlish of you to attempt to stifle comment other than on the company forum. That you fail to do so is no cause for you, having failed, to seek to brand their comment as "bollocks" or whatever ill-chosen profanity you wish to publish.

I am flattered that you imitate my phraseology ("the nature of the beast") in your post, but it does smack somewhat of lack of originality.

Judging by the posts above, methinks the audience has already decided, old bean.

Anyway, I'll leave you alone now, having tossed in my two penneth.

Ta ta, and toodle pip! :) :) :)

[This message has been edited by tilii (edited 26 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 30 June 2001).]

[vulcanite]

tilii, dunno who you are, or what your agenda isb but I am pleased to inform you that you are the outstanding winner of this week's Prick of the Week Award. congratulations, with a small c.

[Dr. Hertz Van Rental]

As a JEA/BE escapee, who remains in very regular contact with ex-collegues, I must say that the opinion projected by RawData as to the level of morale is the opinion of the few rather than the masses! I cannot speak for anyone but myself and my reasons for leaving were the same as the greivences felt by those who remain, not a lot seems to have changed.

As to the argument put by someone that we are all whingers( or words to that effect ), yes we are generally as a profession but in some of the smaller companies they have damned good reaon to whinge.

RawData if you are happy and contented at Brit. Euro. you are a very fortunate man indeed and I sincerely congratulate your personal Utopia.......BUT when you post your comments(which I must admit make me wonder if you do anything else in your sparetime) defending your employer with such vitriol you must conceed that others do not necessarily hold the same view and have every right to post their opinion too.

Nothing I have read in this thread would cause me to think any of them are any less professional for voicing an opinion here that wouldn't be passed among other pilots at any gathering. And we all know how fast news travels in this job!

As an 'Old Boy' I wish everyone at BE the best of luck and hope the powers that be do smell the coffee burning and resolve to rectify the situation B4 it is 2 late!!!!

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Lights, Camera....... Revolution!!!

[This message has been edited by Dr. Hertz Van Rental (edited 26 June 2001).]

[tilii]

vulcanite

"dunno who you are" either, and could not care less. Don't have an "agenda isb" but do have an aversion to smart-arsed and foul-mouthed bigots of the first order like you and Mr RIGHT above.

Delighted to know that the "Prick of the Week" Society, for which you are presumably the elected spokesperson, places this week's award with me. I am honoured, and of course delighted to accept it.

And yes, we see that you wrote "congratulations" with a small "c". Clever boy. :) :) :)

[This message has been edited by tilii (edited 26 June 2001).]

[BavarianBoy]

Tilii, I must agree, Rd will never change and maybe his own little empire at XXX is the best place to keep him. He probably even supports bonding..aghhhh!!!
Barcode, pleasure to hear from you again, inside BE is what appears on this forum as I think you know, you just have to ask a BE crew member when you see them.
Anyhow, unlike RD i do have a life so good luck again to all at BE, and lets hope the Board sort it out b4 it is too late!!

Regards BB

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Gentleman, less haste more speed!



[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 30 June 2001).]

[mercury_7]

Wow.I've just logged on to tonights episode of'how sad is Raw Data' and after reading that old chestnut about the pilots will always leave to go on and fly bigger and better aircraft or some such other nonsense, I wish to state right here and for the record that I when I left JEA I genuinely did not want to go but felt that I had no option. Things could have been turned round by a few simple management decisions(increase the crews per aircraft so that you dont work your team into the ground!) We had a great working environment for a while, unfortunately when you marry very uncivilised rosters poor management decision making ie too much work not enough people,lower pay scales than contemporarys etc then you have set the stage for a mass exodus(if memory serves me correctly there were more than 48 of us in 18 months)and that is some turnover. To address your other point about all the contented people who have not applied to leave I would guess they fall into three broad bands.

1/Those who have insufficient experience, but are on the lookout and cant wait to leave.

2/Those who have to be where they are because of commitments such as family where it is not easy to change,ie BHD perhaps, or long serving members of the company who would have to start at the bottom of another airlines' seniority list.

3/And lastly, people like yourself who would have absolutely no hope of getting into another airline because of your very tenuous grip on reality.

To address your roster it seems a bit lax in comparrison to some that I know of, and by the way are you doing much nightstopping at the moment? With the rosters that i've seen most of these people would be better of flying longhaul, oops i think I can feel another mass exodus coming on.

Does it really have to be this way? Wouldn't it be much better if management took some positive steps to reinforce the troops rather than kick them in the knackers when they are down, JEA got a long way on the goodwill of the people before it turned into a beancounters paradise, just a bit of incentive would probably go a long way.

I await RD's riposte with great interest!
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Keep her lit!

[This message has been edited by mercury_7 (edited 27 June 2001).]

[Capt PPRuNe]

Just in case any of you are considering descending even further into the quagmire of personal insult I advise you all to consider very carefully your actions. Whilst the likes of Vulcanite make a totally immature post and the responses to some of the other postings are not much better, do not turn this into a personality thread.

The discussion did start off fairly civilised but some of the 'personalities' have managed to drag the whole thread close to the gutter. There is no need for 'tilli' to use puns (intended or not) to publicise someones name on here and it doesn't help when others try to use insults to prevent others making their views felt here on a public forum.

I suggest that you all go away and calm down. Feel free to restart this thread if there is anything left to discuss but the content has wandered too far from the title and the participants all need their heads banging together. You wouldn't use some of the language and tone if you were all sitting face to face in the same room so show a bit of civility and try acting as though you would if you were together.

This thread is now closed thanks to an excess of toys being thrown out of the pram. Read the title of a thread and try to keep the content related to it in at least some way. If it just degenerates into a personality slagging match then it gets closed.

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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork