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CATHAY PATHETIC
20th Jun 2001, 18:39
Cathay Pacific pilots voted in favour of limited industrial action today.

Management have retaliated with threats of mass sackings and employing crew from mainland China.

Please support Cathay crew in their efforts.

water check
20th Jun 2001, 19:01
Employing crew from mainland China......oooohhh, that will do WONDERS for their safety record. Certainly it will go a LONG way to helping establish Hong Kong as a first world city....! I am sure the people and government of HK will be REALLY appreciative of the improvement in safety, experience and competence that such a change would offer them. Good one CX management.....go for it. :)

The Resistance
20th Jun 2001, 19:07
Cathay Pacific stock closed yesterday at 10 hkd a share (down from 17 last summer). Do you think shareholders are sending this management a message....???? Bloody brilliant management if I have ever seen one. Nero plays his violin while Rome burns......

mngmt mole
20th Jun 2001, 22:31
My friend who is still in management tells me that all out panic is developing within the heirarchy of the company. Apparantly the Hong Kong Government has quietly informed them that they 'will not' allow another shutdown of the airline, and are decidedly unimpressed that management have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level once again.... In addition, the issue of 'open skies' has been raised insomuch as Cathay risks the entry of 'all out competition' from foreign carriers, with the HK Governments blessing. If I was a shareholder in CX......I would not be well pleased with the handling of the company the past few years. Short term corporate profits at the expense of long term stability and steady growth don't represent good corporate governance in most peoples book. Most of us don't care anymore, and couldn't care less what threats they throw our way. We have been pushed far enough....and it is well past time we pushed back.

411A
20th Jun 2001, 23:21
All of this shouting...."we're going to it, we're going to do it, we REALLY are going to do it this time.......". Well, why wait for July 1st, why not do it now?
These guys are just a bunch of whimps. Think what they really need is a salary cut. And they may get it too if the recruitment in KUL is as successful as advertised.
The big salary glory days are over in HKG.
Over, as in goodby.

Tornado Ali
20th Jun 2001, 23:26
......the people of HK have enjoyed many years of safe, efficient and reliable service by the pilots of CX. It is time they were made aware just how seriously at risk their safety is being compromised by the short term race for profit. We are at our ropes end.....and have no choice in taking action to protect ourselves, and our passengers.

The Resistance
20th Jun 2001, 23:32
I suggest that no one responds to this, or any other comment by 411. He is like a small crying child looking for attention. He is not worthy of any reply. A truly pathetic individual.

MOR
21st Jun 2001, 00:12
And, unfortunately, correct...

ironbutt57
21st Jun 2001, 00:36
What are the main issues...rostering? Leave etc?.....easy there 411-a...somebody has to fight once and a while, or just imagine what the industry would be....

411A
21st Jun 2001, 01:09
Ironbutt57---
Well, I even supplied a phone number for ALPA in DCA, wonder if these guys ever used it? They could sure use all the help that is available.
What they fail to realise is that salaries, such as CX paid in the past, are just that, in the past. If they want to know about TODAY...just look at the latest from SIA. THAT is the salary of today, like it or not. To try to turn back the clock to yesteryear, well it ain't going to happen. And, there is not much the CX guys can do about it. Not saying it is right, just the facts.

FL390
21st Jun 2001, 01:41
411-A, why don't you go and drown your stuck-up-your-arse-head in the nearest duck pond and get a life, perhaps you could talk to the ducks and fish. They might even be your friends seeing as you can't make any here!

(Sorry if this seems rather crude to people, but have a look in the Fragrant Harbour forum and search for posts about CX management and you will see why I'm so angry).

Flap 5
21st Jun 2001, 01:57
FL 390 and others: whatever 411A's past record he is absolutely correct in these two posts.

The A scale salaries are in the past, except for the few remaining who still draw that salary from pre 1993.

Furthermore it would seem that you guys are prepared to be kicked around by management. The industrial action taken in 1999 was a damp squib. CX and KA managements only have to hold on till chinese new year when it will all go quiet again at new year bonus time!

canuck revenger
21st Jun 2001, 03:11
Refering to a certain pathetic individuals comments regarding 'market salaries' eg: what Singapore pays... Well Mr. Know-it-all, I suppose those same 'market salaries' don't explain the fact that an ever increasing number of Singapores fleet are parked in the Arizona desert BECAUSE they can't attract enough crew! And please spare me your comments regarding 'unsustainable salaries' at CX. The fact of the matter is that in REAL terms, the present A-scale salary is worth 50% LESS than it was 8 years ago, and furthermore, the average A-scale Captain is paid in REAL terms about 60% of a comparable United/Delta/American pilot (..and I might add, for many of us there is no pension on top of it...!). In spite of the money issue, the MAIN gripes are to do with lifestyle issues (complete chaos in our scheduling), violation of contractaul rights, intimidation tactics (after 12 years, sign a new contract of be fired..!) and basically the fact that we are working for one, if not the most dysfunctional airline in the industry. It is people such as yourself who implement policies such as we have here at CX that lead to the ruin of lives, careers , shareholder value and eventually the very airline itself. I find it interesting that BOTH the managements of....say, Continental, and the management of CX claim that they are leading their respective carriers to the title of 'Worlds Best'. Perhaps you can explain it to those of us 'obviously' not as bright as yourself how they BOTH expect to get to the SAME place using COMPLETELY opposed strategies and philosophies. If I was a betting man, I would place my money on the carrier that shows consideration and respect (both completely lacking at CX) for its employees. In case it has escaped your rather narrow minded mindset, there has NEVER been a successful airline that has subordinated it's employees to the sake of maximum profit.....not a one. There is a reason that airlines like Southwest and Continental are as successful as they are.....and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with people who think like you. Your hatred and vitriolic attitude towards the very people who make the reputation, safety and long term success of an airline (ie: the staff who do the REAL work) possible is on display for all to see in your comments. I do hope you keep writing to PPRUNE, as it provides no end of entertainment, and a good degree of confirmation in how truly sick and twisted a good deal of today's airline management are. We are fighting for our careers, our families and our profession. Regardless of the short-term outcome, in the end your type will be covered in disgrace (re: Lorenzo). I have to wonder what failure in your past compels you to offer your bitter and hysterical comments. You offer nothing of value, and must possess a truly malignant soul. I should feel anger towards you....but instead feel only pity.

[This message has been edited by canuck revenger (edited 20 June 2001).]

St_Paul_Island
21st Jun 2001, 03:46
OK, everyone, just leave it be. 411A loves to wind everyone up, on just about all the PPRuNe forums. Ignore the sad old git (SOG).

Keep it quiet! This forum is not the place to air greivances - they will be used against us.

Kaptin M
21st Jun 2001, 04:14
Agreed 411A delights - in every post - to tell us how HE was paid a salary commensurate with the conditions under which he was paid. But THAT was in the "Glory Days" (his pathetic phrase) of Cathay. Now that HE's not there, because he's passed his "use by" date, he doesn't believe there are any more REAL pilots left. You are a sad, pathetic reminder of the old style of domineering dictator that USED to be regularly seen, but now, thank God is mostly just a (bad) memory from bygone days in Western cockpits. Unfortunately, 411A and his type passed their legacy on to some of the unfortunate local Asian pilots (eg. Cathay, Singapore), hence the resentment for "round-eyes".

Anyway, unfortunately I've allowed our time-expired 411A to distract me from the CORE ISSUE with the CX pilots -
a beligerent, "don't-care-about-the-consequences", "stuff-the-shareholders" management, whose narrow-minded thinking leads them to believe the ONLY way to increase profits is to attack employees working conditions!

AMEX
21st Jun 2001, 05:26
Whoever they are, they can all scream, fight or bite but the market will dictate it all. Nothing wgrong with fighting for what we believe is right and if the airlines grant it to us it's because they think we diserve it (The pro and against weight upon).
I am fed up with explaining why I earn more than others without asking why I get less than many!! Not Jealous because I consider myself lucky to do a job I love but why do we have to justify ourselves ?

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

411A
21st Jun 2001, 06:08
Canuck Revenger---
SIA has aircraft parked in the Arizona Desert? Well, the only places that will store large civil aircraft in Arizona are Marana and Kingman. As I was at both airports last week and didn't notice any SIA aircraft, they must have them buried six feet under.
Kaptin M---
The main reason local HKG Chinese pilots are resentful of "round-eyes" is because the locals were systematically excluded from the CX flightdeck for many years. Not so in SIA.

canuck revenger
21st Jun 2001, 06:16
411A....sometimes I don't know why I (or anyone else for that matter...) bother with you. But in the interest of keeping your distortions straight, I feel it necessary in this case. Singapore has several new aircraft parked in the desert. They have them as 'white tails' so as not to suffer the embarrasment of being publicly identified as having to park perfectly servicable aircraft. If you doubt this, contact some of the SQ pilots and ask them. Furthermore, if you are based in the US, why do you think you have some reason to comment on just about EVERY issue on PPRUNE, especially CX. I have never encountered someone with such a high opinion of themselves.....SOG indeed!

Flap 5
21st Jun 2001, 13:41
You guys are being distracted by this vitriolic attack on 411A. As I said in my last post what he has said so far on this thread is correct. Whether there are white or pink tailed SQ aircraft in Arizona is irrelevant.

Concentrate on the point. If you are going to have industrial action do it properly.

locgreen
21st Jun 2001, 13:58
Hello from Singapore...

Just wanted to clarify that there are no NEW SIA a/c parked in the desert...merely one or two old white-tailed 747-300's that could not be sold off. They were flown there in recent months.

Regards and the best of luck to Cathay pilots in your battles...

Capt PPRuNe
21st Jun 2001, 19:45
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Cathay tries to avert pilot strike

Sean Kennedy

Thursday, June 21, 2001 at 18:15 JST
A Cathay Pacific Airways jet passes the control tower at Hong Kong's international airport on June 20. REUTERS NEWS PHOTOHONG KONG Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd said on Thursday it would hold more talks this week with the main pilots' union to try to settle a row over pay and working conditions before threatened industrial action on July 1.

In a statement after government-mediated negotiations between the two sides, Cathay said talks to resolve the dispute would resume on Friday at 9 a.m. (0100 GMT).

Pilots voted overwhelmingly on Wednesday to take industrial action from July 1 if no agreement was reached, raising the possibility of potentially costly disruptions at the start of the busy summer holiday season.

Cathay and the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA), representing 1,200 of Cathay's 1,400 pilots, agreed last week to government meditation to try to settle the dispute.

The Cathay statement on Thursday said the two sides "had a frank exchange on their respective positions regarding the subject of remuneration and benefits".

The pilots have declined to specify the action they will take if no agreement is reached by July 1, but past actions have included "sick-outs" and work slowdowns that disrupted flights.

In a 1999 pay row, pilots staged a costly two-week "sickout" and forced the cancellation of hundreds of flights. Cathay countered by laying on a fleet of more than 30 charter aircraft to maintain part of normal services, and said later the operation cost about HK$500 million (US$64 million). (Reuters News)</font>

Source: JapanToday (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=7&id=36962)

Pengintai
21st Jun 2001, 20:18
Gentlemen, disregard 411A's posts. An analysis of his past posts reveal him to be a "Septic" with a claimed career spanning every contract job in existence. He attempts to wind up everyone, and prominently appears in any controversial thread. Best ignored.

411A
21st Jun 2001, 20:40
Canuck Revenger---
I deal in facts, not urban legend.
Notice that you have not addressed the post from "Flap 5". Those high salaries that you so crave are a thing of the past. The market will dictate and the market right now is headed lower. Lower cost carriers will predominate in the Asia/Pacific region, for you to expect the higher salaries of some American carriers (Delta for example) is simply not realistic. You may get a slight pay rise with your planned "action" but suspect it will not be anything like you want. You will have to settle for second best. Those are the facts.

Raw Data
21st Jun 2001, 21:31
No expert knowledge on the subject, but I suspect 411A is right. The days of huge salaries and the "expat" lifestyle are definitely on the wane, and not just in "Honkers" either. Sadly, too many people are totally unrealistic when it comes to salaries. The market WILL decide salary levels- always has, always will.

In the same way that companies like Ansett NZ have put themselves on the line when fighting pilot pay increases, others will follow. The world is changing, and pilots are not immune. Airlines will increasingly stand up to high pay claims.

I'm sure that most Cathay pilots are (rightly) incensed by the erosion in their pay and conditions- but they shouldn't be surprised, the writing has been on the wall for a long time. Good luck to them, whatever happens next...

The Resistance
21st Jun 2001, 21:54
Try and listen carefully........this dispute is MAINLY about issues OTHER than pay! If you could see what our rostering has become, you would appreciate our frustration and anger. As for the financial issues, we have been going backwards for OVER 8 YEARS!! The company has just recorded their BIGGEST profit EVER (the same year they forced us to take on average a 27% paycut, on the premise that the airline was in financial peril...!, ...oh, with ANOTHER paycut NEXT month!!!!). We will NOT allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. You can quote the mantra of 'market forces' all you want. The FACTS are that we are behind in almost every area, and we will fight for it to be redressed. The like of 411 and others and their opinions are of no consequence. Most of us don't care anymore, and the threats and intimidation from our management is like the proverbial water of a ducks back.... The REAL fact of the matter is that the company is in a VERY dicey situatin politically. They CAN'T afford to let the airline grind to a halt, as the HK Government will drop the hammer on them. There is MUCH talk of liberalising the aviation market in HK....which is the LAST thing that CX wants. If they can't be seen to run an airline without chronic labour problems, they will be passed over in favour of other airlines that promise to provide HK with a reliable service. Needless to say, firing your aircrew, or shutting down doesn't exactly demonstrate the needed qualities to the Government, or the travelling public of HK. We have had enough, and the management had better realise that this time we have come too far to back down. Start running the airline, not focusing on how much more you can screw out of your own employees. We are tired, fed-up, and incredibly angry. The ball is in the companys court.....and they had better play it V-E-R-Y carefully.

411A
21st Jun 2001, 23:55
I suspect that the HKG government will drop the hammer on these guys, big time. When push comes to shove, suspect that the market forces will prevail. CX management would do well to "fix" the rostering complaints, and keep the salary levels little changed. Much cheaper that way. Also would expect that other airlines are waiting with eager anticipation at the thought of increased traffic rights. Who knows, Cathay Pacific may well disappear altogether, or be a shadow of its former self.