Need UK JAR CPL(H) 30 h modular course, or R22 rental

[Martin1234]

If you have an R22 on which you sell 34-40 hours completed in 2-4 weeks, or can offer R22 with instructor with an arrangement with a UK or Irish registered FTO, less than the going rate of approximately £200 then please send me a PM.

I'm looking at commencing the JAR CPL(H) 30 h modular course late June or early July. Location can be anywhere in Europe.

[helicopter-redeye]

The 'disfunctionals' getting you down huh?:p

h-r;)

[bauldrik]

200 £ , please show me as well . i will move tomrow !!!! oh hang on , VAT

[2bart]

Register for VAT and claim back you training expenses

[ToTall]

this one in Stockholm?
http://www.helicopter.bogghed.com/

or u could contact EHC in Norway and get some help?

MD is spot on :-)

[MD900 Explorer]

Martin

You are dreaming arn't you :D

You may get some discount for block booking with a school, but, don't get your hopes up. I think you have been in Sweden for too long.. just getting used to the sunlight coming out now? :D

Don't forget you have taken your ATP exams in the UK, which limits your search here. I told you this when you PM'd me. :=

Keep searching buddy, i am sure you will get there. :ok:

MD :{

[Martin1234]

You are dreaming arn't you

Nope, I'm not. If the going rate is about 200-230£ excluding VAT, it would not be impossible to get a rate at like £180 if there's an instructor and/or aircraft with some time left and needs to go out flying. Especially if the flying is done in a short period of time. If the flying is done in the cheaper parts of Europe it's actually quite likely. Remember, flying training at a UK registered FTO can be undertaken anywhere in the world (f.e. Florida and Mallorca).

I think you have been in Sweden for too long.. just getting used to the sunlight coming out now?

55 degrees north it's not that bad, but I understand your point. Weather is really crap here.

Don't forget you have taken your ATP exams in the UK, which limits your search here. I told you this when you PM'd me.

As I stated in my original post of this thread, I was looking for an instructor with an arrangement with a UK or Irish FTO. The Irish IAA and UK CAA have an agreement stating that they accept each others' theory without formality. As stated as of above, the training does not need to take place within the UK.

Yeeez... I recall that Norway is even further north of 55 degrees.. :cool:

[mongoose237]

I think that would be deal of the century if you got something in the order of £180 / hr wet with FTO and CPL instructor, but good luck nevertheless.
Margins are tight on R22s even at £215 an hour, and the instructor isn't going to cut his share. Plus remember the ground training you will need too.

Remember, flying training at a UK registered FTO can be undertaken anywhere in the world (f.e. Florida and Mallorca). Are you sure about that? Those are both specific agreements between the CAA and Helicopter Adventures / Sloane Helicopters respectively.

Good luck

[Martin1234]

The cheapest school I found charge £200 when paying up front, otherwise £215. £180 would be a good deal, which is why I started this thread in the first place. Also, the cheapish deal does not necessarily imply it is the best deal.

Those are both specific agreements between the CAA and Helicopter Adventures / Sloane Helicopters respectively.

Yes, an agreement between the UK FTO and the UK CAA. You do need a deal with the UK CAA in order to register as an FTO...

For the first, we got the EU principle that you can't discriminate someone just because they are located in another EU/EEA country. Secondly, I'm told that the UK law states that authorities are required to accept such applications no matter where they are located. I'm not sure about that, but it's for sure that other JAA countries are not too happy about JAR schools in the states. Anyway, since I can go anywhere in Europe there is no need for me to limit myself to the UK, even though I understand most deals are located on that island.

If instructors would have had just half the time some people here have on their hands training would be practically free. :eek:

[TOT]

"if instructors would have had just half the time some people here have on their hands training would be practically free.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
FREE!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU WANT A MONKEY
ARE YOU GOING TO FLY FOR FREE WHEN YOU GET YOUR CPL????
with guys like you around, its no wonder rates dont go up much!!!!! .
and its little wonder some guys dont stay instructing either!!!
STAY IN NORWAY!

[mongoose237]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you ... you want to find a UK or Irish flying school (because of your ATPL theory credits) that will let you have a CPL instructor and R22 for way under the going rate AND personally negotiate the right to train you overseas if necessary?

Remember an FTO approval for modular CPL does not come lightly or cheaply, let alone for overseas approval - we aren't talking RTF for PPL training. If it was that easy every school would be an FTO. Take it from me, getting modular CPL approval is not an application form dropped around at the Belgrano with the approval mailed out the following week :bored:

I'm not quite sure of your last comment - many current and ex instructors dedicate quite a lot of time on here to help answer people's training questions, take our advice as you see fit.

[Camp Freddie]

martin sounds like just another guy who thinks he can be clever and his driving force is "cheap cheap" and is not interested in quality.

most of us go to regular schools , pay the regular rate , and get an OK course,

he obviously would prefer to operate out of a field with some sort of dodgy deal with some instructor who is too stupid to earn what he deserves to earn.

as long as the paperwork appears to be ok he doesnt care. as all he is thinking about is licensing rather than "employability"

I hope the schools tell him where to go. theres no money in flight training anyway for the operator, margins are rubbish so why should they discount

regards

CF

[Martin1234]

Some people interpret things out of my request that I didn't write nor was my intention. The request was pretty clear and if you meet the criteria and is interested in the business go ahead and contact me.

It seems that I have upset some people here so I'm going to answer your queries anyway;

Tot, my comment was not intented to be interpreted word for word. I was implying that some people replying to this thread should have better things to do than trying to be smart-ass. This could be due to the fact that the person or persons have nothing better to do. If instructors also would have that much spare-time (e.g. no instruction to do), prices would go down. Remember the smiley, which implies that a word for word interpretation of the text might not correspond to the intention of the author.

you want to find a UK or Irish flying school (because of your ATPL theory credits) that will let you have a CPL instructor and R22 for way under the going rate

I don't mind doing the training in the UK in the first place, notwithstanding where my ATPL theory credits are. If someone has a good deal of maybe 10% under the going rate that would be great. I never said nor implied that I try to get a deal "for way under the going rate" which 10% isn't.

AND personally negotiate the right to train you overseas if necessary?

No, I go where the instructor prefers to do the training. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this but my intention was that I don't mind where in Europe the instruction is taking place.

Remember an FTO approval for modular CPL does not come lightly or cheaply

I assume that the UK CAA, as well as other aviation authorities, charge for the set-up of the FTO and then a yearly fee - not a fee for every student. If the FTO already holds an approval, one way to make revenue out of the invested money at the Belgrano is to increase the number of students.

I'm not quite sure of your last comment - many current and ex instructors dedicate quite a lot of time on here to help answer people's training questions, take our advice as you see fit.

I think you misunderstood it. Anyhow, help from instructors or anyone else not being a smart-ass is of course as always highly appreciated.

with some sort of dodgy deal with some instructor who is too stupid to earn what he deserves to earn.

If I deal directly with the instructor, who has a deal with an FTO, the instructor might end up getting more money even if I pay less since the commission to the school would be less.

as long as the paperwork appears to be ok he doesnt care. as all he is thinking about is licensing rather than "employability"

Who are you talking about? I never said nor implied what you state.

martin sounds like just another guy who thinks he can be clever and his driving force is "cheap cheap" and is not interested in quality.

As I stated earlier; "the cheapish deal does not necessarily imply it is the best deal".

I've flown with not so good instructors that don't really care about the quality of the instruction they are giving as long as it gives them more hours to log. To the contrary, I've flown with good, dedicated instructors that take pride in what they do which they are also good at. I'm more than willing to pay more for such an instructor.

As with everything, price does often but not always imply the quality of the service you get. After all, I'm saying that I have about £7000 excluding VAT to spend in a time frame of 2-4 weeks. The deal is likely to be yours if you provide quality instruction and charge around 10% less than the going rate. I will travel where you are. I don't think it's a bad deal, especially if the instructor owns the aircraft or rents it at a competative price.

I didn't expect anyone to give me a great deal on flight training. However, if I plan to spend around £7000 it would be foolish not to at least try to get the best deal possible.

[mongoose237]

I think people were just trying to carry out a "reality check". You admit that £200 is the cheapest deal you have found, and that is already a 7% discount on their normal rate (which, incidentally is already way below UK industry standard), so it is hardly fair to call that "the going rate". In fact I don't know of ANY school coming close to that price. Yet you seem to think you can knock another 10% of that already rock bottom price? Margins are miniscule on flight training, which I appreciate may be difficult to comprehend when people look at the large sums of money involved.

Maybe once you get your CPL and perhaps do an instructor's rating and spend some time seeing things from the other side of the fence, your opinions may change. Until that time, good luck - you can download a list of schools with approval for modular CPL from the CAA website. Some of them may allow you to source your own helicopter and/or instructor, but they won't do it out of the kindness of their heart so you will have to do the sums once the aircraft owner has had his cut, the instructor has had his cut, and the school has had its cut.

[Martin1234]

I know what you are saying apart from the phrase that my opinion might change if I get my instructor rating. Why would I not try to get the best deal just because I get such rating?

It's the basic principle of "supply and demand". If someone's business is slack, or is an independent instructor with a good deal with an FTO and aircraft rental, he will significantly increase the chances of getting the deal if doing the training abit cheaper. If not, he will compete with several other training establishments and might not get the deal.

I think that everyone must realise that the customer won't pay "out of the kindness of their heart" whatever deal he is looking for. In the aviation world, you do get heaps of replies saying they are not interested in the deal. In other businesses, you just don't get any response if nobody is interested. I prefer the latter. :=

[mongoose237]

My comment was that maybe your opinion would change regarding whether you felt an additional 10% off an already 7% discounted rate off a very cheap initial rate was unreasonable. You clearly have a lot to learn about the aviation industry.

:ugh:

In other businesses, you just don't get any response if nobody is interested. I prefer the latter. :=

My apologies, I for one shall stop troubling you with my replies.

[Martin1234]

I've had some deals within the aviation industry that you would refer to as "unreasonable", still where both parts were happy with the agreement. I can't see why spending 2 minutes starting a thread (I didn't expect all replies to the thread) just making sure there is no better deal out there, would have something to do with my knowledge of the aviation industry.

You are more than welcome to reply to my posts but if you have nothing in particular to contribute with then please don't. After all, you should at least now know that I don't expect my PM inbox to fill up with great offers so to speak. Even if that would have been what I expected, I suppose I would have found out that is not the case after a while anyway.

Nevertheless, if you have hints or other helpful information that could help me in the search for a school that would be appreciated. If you have good or bad experience of an FTO or instructor then a PM is always appreciated. I'm looking at visiting some FTOs soon. My previous experience is actually that the best instructors were on a very good deal while some of the bad eggs, that were only interested in building hours, were employed by a relatively expensive operator.

[PENNINE BOY]

Martin,
I have to agree with you, PM me as I know a guy who would let you have some machine rental at a very attractive price, as money in arse pocket is better than machine eating away at the 12yrs in barn doing sweet F--k All.

As for instructors well ! you get the same instructor for ppl rate of £20/30 an hour but mention Commercial training the rate goes up to £80 an hr for doing basically a bit more in depth ppl training...................

Things in the UK are hardly on fire in the training field.
Good luck with the training
PB :cool: