View Full Version : Why do we bother?
The_Cutest_of_Borg
31st May 2006, 00:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcAE70sOYPA
The above link is from Youtube.com and shows the infamous Korean airlines landing that was filmed by a QF pilot near the checkerboards at Kai Tak about 10 years ago. (Gday Jabs!).
Check out the comments.
People wonder why frustration is shown sometimes here about some of the questions. If this is the general level of knowledge about airline operations, no wonder.:ugh:
Captain Fun
31st May 2006, 03:12
Which comments in particular are getting you so worked up?
Monopole
31st May 2006, 03:20
The_Cutest_of_Borg
Having never had seen the Checkerboard Approach being carried out (let alone flying it), I can't comment on it. However the last comment does seem reasonable.
The crosswind was less than 10 knots. You can see the windsock next to the runway. He overshot the runway and instead of going around, he almost killed 400 people. He is an idiot. (P.S) I used to fly 747's.
Where were the Qf crew at the time of taking the video?
Camera angle and/or telescopic lense or zoom can make a dramatic differance.
The_Cutest_of_Borg
31st May 2006, 03:41
That last comment is the only knowledgeable one there.
It wasn't a QF crew, just a QF guy who is a camera buff sitting near the checkerboard.
Trust me, this approach was a screw-up(which anyone could do), but quadruply worsened by the failure to go-around.
pakeha-boy
31st May 2006, 06:30
Borg mate....this video is used by many in Groundschool,to highlight the point of....."when is it time to go around"...this one of course is painfully obvious.
It all goes back to the way they are trained and when you learn to fly by ROTE,this is what you get....Spent a year with JAL/Iasco in their 747 programme,....had to leave,.....Ill leave it at that...PB:mad:
DickyPearse
31st May 2006, 08:06
Where were the Qf crew at the time of taking the video?
Camera angle and/or telescopic lense or zoom can make a dramatic differance.
No camera angle is going to make that look pretty :eek: That is one of the reasons why my girlfriend's firm refused to allow staff to fly KAL - they couldn't get their corporate travel insurer to cover them.
Cloud Cutter
31st May 2006, 08:20
Borg, I agree. I cringe when I read something like that. Especially the guy who thought he was so right he got aggressive. I think drunk pilot would be a perfectly good deduction:}
"exelent recovery ,did`nt even scrape engine."
Now that one gave me warm fuzzies, because I too, managed to land once without scraping an engine. Proudest day of my life.
I wonder if anyone has some video of QF1 BKK/golfcourse. Should prove just as entertaining.
Not reducing the enormity of this record. But one should be careful when launching rocks.
Maui
haughtney1
31st May 2006, 19:48
I currently work with a guy who was one of the "round-eyes" employed by aforementioned carrier to help them retain their insurance cover...something like 9 hull losses in 4 years springs to mind:hmm:
Not wishing to sound un PC...just relating what Ive been told.
Haughtney
Not quite the number, but it was bad.
However the last 5 years, zero losses.
Things have changed for the better.
May they continue to do so.
Maui
haughtney1
31st May 2006, 21:46
On further research (nothing like a good story getting in the way of the truth!!:} ) 9 serious incidents is a more accurate reflection..which does include various hull losses:ok:
And yep 5 incident free years :)
27/09
31st May 2006, 22:09
And yep 5 incident free years May be for KAL but the problems still exist in that part of the world as the incident at NZAA at the end of 2004 proves. But for the watchfullness of the work party foreman the results would have been disastrous, at least for those on the ground.
See here for report http://www2.taic.org.nz/InvDetail/04-006.aspx
The_Cutest_of_Borg
31st May 2006, 22:34
Maui, the thread was instigated to highlight the general ignorance of the public in these sorts of matters, not to necesarily vilify or deify any particular airline.
Merlins Magic
31st May 2006, 22:37
Is this mentality inbread in Asian Carriers? Time after time we hear of bad decisions being made by Asian carriers. I am sure all airlines experience this, but it seems extreme in the case of some Asian carriers. Is it poor decision making skills on behalf of the crew or is it the company pressure and culture of pride that results in such things?
My parents were on a QF flight from Bangkok to Sydney in April and it was scheduled to depart in the middle of a severe thunderstorm. The aircraft was pushed back and commenced taxi but the crew on closer inspection of the scenario decided to delay the departure. They shutdown and sat on an assigned taxiway for about 2 hours until the weather cleared. BA and CX also shutdown on taxiways but Singapore, Thai, Korean, JAL, and countless other carriers continued to land and depart in what was described as horrific conditions.
YesTAM
31st May 2006, 22:42
By absolute coincidence, this video was discussed on a forum totally unconnected to PPrune and the following comment was made by a colleague who's veracity I don't doubt.
"Actually that was what we call Korean-Korean. They had a lot of trouble in that incarnation. Too much incesteous relationships with the military which was fundamentally a cowboy club. It got so bad, we had to "decertify" them as a codeshare member and ultimately our retired Vice President of Flight Operations was sent over to take over as the CEO of Korean. We now call it Greenburg-Korean after him. He had to kick some butt and take some names, fired a bunch of people. He also changed some culture that resulted in substantial pay raises for the pilots but at the same time put a lot of heat on them. The result was after a review by our code share team they were readmitted. This is one of the very good parts of international code share alliances is we audit each others operations to insure a high quality product both operationally and marketing wise.
Disagree XXXXX, it was awful and sheer luck nobody got seriously hurt. We don't accept "any landing you walk away from is a good landing" criteria. We look for a variety a parameters including "stabilized approach". If you look at every landing accident in the past 20 years including the most recent a Chicago Midway, the stabilized approach criteria was not adhered to.
"
Magic Merlin
I have no idea of the circumstances, so cannot comment other than to say:
It is possible that the activity that dictated a departure hold, was affecting the climbout area, whilst leaving the approach area open. Maybe, I don't know. Do you, or do your parents, cocooned inside a tube.
As The cute one said, this thread is about the misconceptions of the public. What is seen is not necessarily understood.
Maui
18-Wheeler
1st Jun 2006, 00:26
A mate of mine went through the induction process at Asiana.
Did all the sims for standard procedures, etc .... but the surprising and dangerous part was that there were NO emergency procedure sim rides.
No reviews, nothing apart from reading the books.
Then his line check, which they made him fail anyway.
Pass-A-Frozo
1st Jun 2006, 02:15
Real men don't go around :E
Which PAF is why we all owe a debt of gratitude to all the REAL MEN, who are by and large, wearing blue serge.
May I pass on the thanks of the industry to you and your like minded colleagues, for you continuing service to the realm and our passengers.
Humbley yours
Maui
DickyPearse
1st Jun 2006, 04:33
I wonder if anyone has some video of QF1 BKK/golfcourse. Should prove just as entertaining.
Agree with you on that one Maui
I have no idea of the circumstances, so cannot comment other than to say:
It is possible that the activity that dictated a departure hold, was affecting the climbout area, whilst leaving the approach area open.
ooooo losing me there Maui
May I pass on the thanks of the industry to you and your like minded colleagues, for you continuing service to the realm and our passengers.
Lost me now....don't tell me you think he was crabbing in a strong crosswind?
Dicky
That comment has nothing to do with the events in the video. It has everything to do with PAF's fairly consistent line.
And by the way the PIC of said flight also wore the equivalent of blue serge.
Maui
Pass-A-Frozo
1st Jun 2006, 05:50
:p some people just can't take a joke now can they.
PAF
What you have said in jest, is a very real concept to a great many in my ken.
Maui