Ammunition found in hand luggage by cabin crew

[cwatters]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5032026.stm

Plane passenger 'had ammunition'

A man was removed from an Easyjet plane at Naples airport in Italy after ammunition was found in his hand luggage by cabin crew.
The passenger, who is thought to be Italian and described as elderly, was stopped before the flight took off for Stansted airport.

He was taken from the plane and is being questioned by local police.

An Easyjet spokeswoman said it was "not acceptable" that the man was able to get past airport security.

She praised the Easyjet crew for their actions

[Germstone]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5032026.stm
Plane passenger 'had ammunition'



fairly harmless if he didnt have anything to load the ammunition into

[Chesty Morgan]

JAR OPS states:
When carriage is allowed by the operator, cartridges for sporting weapons, providing they are in Division 1.4S (basically they have to be packaged, and any dangerous effect they have can be contained within in the packaging) they are for that person's own use, they are securely boxed and in quantities not exceeding 5kg gross mass and they are in CHECKED BAGGAGE. Cartridges with incendiary or explosive projectiles are not permitted.
:D Good for the crew, bad for airport security!:=

[cwatters]

fairly harmless if he didnt have anything to load the ammunition into

Yes I expect someone else had that. Never mind eh? :rolleyes:

[Germstone]

yeah suppose it was a nice bit of drama for those concerned and a good old story for the journo types :-)

[Karma-Air]

"fairly harmless if he didnt have anything to load the ammunition into"

Sounds like you don't know a whole lot about 'ammo'.

A teaspoon would do, a small nail....need I say more.

K-A:\

[SkySista]

Someone just failed their DG course... :E
Who says there needs to be a gun? If someone else has matches or a lighter (or anything else) that 'goes off' in their luggage, that's all it will take to react with the ammo and start a much bigger problem...

[Eaglestar7]

JAR OPS states:
When carriage is allowed by the operator, cartridges for sporting weapons, providing they are in Division 1.4S (basically they have to be packaged, and any dangerous effect they have can be contained within in the packaging) they are for that person's own use, they are securely boxed and in quantities not exceeding 5kg gross mass and they are in CHECKED BAGGAGE. Cartridges with incendiary or explosive projectiles are not permitted.
:D Good for the crew, bad for airport security!:=

With only 3 seconds to look inside each bag as it sails through the scanner, I would say checked with a small 'c'. This goes back to why I was saying on another thread that people (including airport and airline staff) don't understand why we have to do random searches of hand baggage, wallets and shoes etc. Basically we cannot win, people complain when we do our job well and again when we don't :ugh: Nobody cares about security anyway and to most people we are a pain in the rear end. God only knows why I still care about my job.

[Final 3 Greens]

Skysista

Personal opinion, but I feel more threatened by the thought of someone smoking in the loos and setting the aircraft on fire.

History suggests that this is a more probable event and it is potentially lethal.

Of course, the ammunition should not have got on board, but unless someone had the intent to set it off.....

Then again, someone could carry a lighter with the express intent of setting the loos on fire, a bottle of Smirnoff would also greatly add to the conflagration.

So how paranoid are we all feeling?

[SkySista]

3greens, I agree with you re: smoking on a/c... my intent was to point out that ammo 'on it's own' isn't so innocent as people might think.... :}

[Final 3 Greens]

Skysista

ammo 'on it's own' isn't so innocent

As ever, it's all down to the intention of the person carrying it, so I agree with you and despite all the "security", those with ill intent might still be able to improvise a weapon from items available airside.

[SkySista]

Which brings us back to the "wine glass ok, forks not" paradox!!! :} :E

Security is only as good as its weakest link...! (Which, given the state of things... argh, never mind, I'll only start ranting again....! :cool: )

[Final 3 Greens]

yeah

When asked the question "have you got any dangerous objects in your hand luggage" I answer no, because thats the required response.

But generally, I have -

- a 1m garotte (aka a laptop computer power cord)
- a 1.8m garotte (aka an ethernet cable)
- a silk garotte (aka tie)
- a blunt instrument weighing 1.6 kgs (laptop)
- a very powerful battery that could be made to generate a lot of heat, possibly even set on fire
- stabbing weapons (pens, pda stylus)

etc

So I believe that the weakest link in our security is not understanding the intentions of people boarding flights - see Danny's comments elsewhere about profiling.

It would be highly foolish to think that the bad guys have gone away, but equally our present system is pretty onerus and seems far from perfect.

[SLFguy]

Eaglestar...

You are in airport, (I assume),security yet you don't understand the phrase 'Checked Baggage'?

:rolleyes:

[Chesty Morgan]

I'll help.
Checked baggage is more accurately reffered to as "checked IN baggage". ie. Hold baggage.
And I would have thought that with all these modern x-ray machines and the like, it would have been easy to spot ammunition in any hand baggage.
Again I say WELL DONE TO THE CREW:D

[Eaglestar7]

Eaglestar...

You are in airport, (I assume),security yet you don't understand the phrase 'Checked Baggage'?

:rolleyes:

I do understand the phrase, but I had just finnished my 72 hour week when I wrote it, so I was a little tired. We would normally use the phrase 'Checked In Baggage' anyway.

[FLIPSIDEUP]

Final 3 Greens
What a P... poor post.
At a certain uk airport we do not ask "do you have any dangerous items in your hand luggage," we verify that for ourselves.
Would you therefore be happy if we removed said items specified as being potentially dangerous? As for profiling, please enlighten me, what does a potential terrorist / potential suicide look like, and do we exclude all air crewe as being altogether on a higher plain.
Pleeeeeese

[ExSimGuy]

Flipside,

I regularly get a "random extra check" - probably due to "profiling" as I have a passport full of Mid-East stamps (I live there, work there, and when given the opportunity go to Church there!) but I accept that it is SOP and roll with it.

"Airside IEDs" - They sell litre bottles of inflammable materials in LHR shops and on the duty-free trolleys, but (in USA) take away my tiny, 2cc's of gas disposable lighter so I can;t have a smoke when I land at LHR (at the "authorised point" - which is after customs, immigration, baggage - OUTSIDE the airport!)

Weapons - see above comments about 1-litre "Glasgow Daggers" - what happened to the plastic DF bottles of 30 years ago? If the punters seriously object to the flavour of booze from plastic bottles, let then pay the extra couple of quid to buy glass bottles from the local off-license! (LHR "duty free" isn't really that cheap anyway, due to the probably exorbitant rents charged to the shops to sell their wares there.)

Sorry, but I've flown many times in/through Mid-East, Europe, US of A, and I find the airport "security" is (IMHO) more of a show than a real "operation" :uhoh: It might stop the amateur, but I'm not sure that a serious intelligent operator would be stopped 100% of the time.

(though a few more security staff at LHR might be a good idea as I get the impression that they are hard-pressed to reconcile getting the pax through in time for their flights with doing an efficient job - I sympathise with them there)

[Final 3 Greens]

Flipside Up

At a certain uk airport we do not ask "do you have any dangerous items in your hand luggage," we verify that for ourselves.

I was basing my comment on what happens when I check in at LHR and LGW, since I believe that the airline personnel are required to ask these questions by law. So I assume from your reply that you are a security person.

Would you therefore be happy if we removed said items specified as being potentially dangerous?

Well, you might also need to remove a lot of other things too, including my belt, which can also be used as an improvised ligature and what about my hands? As a Karate black belt, you might be worried about those too?

Your comment just proves my point, it is intent that determines what is and isn't a risk. Apparently the authorities accepted that the Italian man had made a genuine mistake and was not a threat, although I totally respect the cabin crew for their swift professional actions.

As for profiling, please enlighten me, what does a potential terrorist / potential suicide look like

I have no idea what a potential terrorist looks like and I believe that there is rather more to profiling when done properly, maybe you should ask someone at El Al, who seem to be rather good at it.

and do we exclude all air crewe as being altogether on a higher plain

Well, firstly I think that you mean "plane", not plain.

Grammar is obviously not your strength?

I don't see why air crew should be excluded from checks nor security personnel. By the way, I am not air crew, just one of the punters who pays the security peeps wages by means of pax tax.

[FLIPSIDEUP]

Ex Simguy
Hey come on.
We all know that there is no such thing as 100% security. If there was, the number of flight movements, not to mention subway trains, would need to be reduced by maybe two thirds. Everything is a compromise based upon known facts and intelligence. We ALL have a responsibility towards safeguarding lives and property, and it does not help when un-informed individuals continue to take cheap shots at those tasked with aviation safety issues.
Who would be to blame I wonder if an incident occured where a knife masquerading as a pen or a comb was used in a situation that jeopardised the safety of a flight?
We need to be together on safety, right?

[FLIPSIDEUP]

Final ?
Lets all give up then!
Your pathetic comments do not merit a serious response.

[Final 3 Greens]

MJ

Swiss Knives

Similar story at Zurich last month, the shop was airside, beyond the screening.

[Final 3 Greens]

Flipside

Your pathetic comments do not merit a serious response.

Just as well, since you're patently not capable of giving one.

[Germstone]

"fairly harmless if he didnt have anything to load the ammunition into"

Sounds like you don't know a whole lot about 'ammo'.

A teaspoon would do, a small nail....need I say more.

K-A:\

i think you may have been watching too much A team

you would be surprised how much i know about firearms and ammunition :-)

[6chimes]

Well said 3 greens.

Security is not about finding implements that may be used against us, but looking for INTENT. We can take off metal cutlary, glass bottles and lock flight deck doors but we cannot take off seat belts and they can be detached and used as weapons. We rely on scanning peoples possessions as absolute proof, that is our weakness,

6

[Bangkokeasy]

Cabin crew noticed he had something suspicious in his hand luggage? A couple of rounds of ammunition? Even if they were assault rifle rounds, put together they would not be much bigger than a BIC lighter. Pretty amazing spot there! What did the cabin crew have? X-ray vision? :confused:

The only way they would have spotted these, is if the man voluntarily surrendered the rounds, or openly displayed them.

[SkySista]

Not necessarily. Quite often one can find 'DG's' or prohibited items in people's luggage, simply because 'check-in staff did not ask specfically for those'... some people just don't think (for whatever reason) and something 'innocent' like bleach they do not think of 'dangerous' because they use it all the time at home..

It's all about educating people... sometimes just by asking the same question/s in a different way you can catch some pretty scary stuff before ir gets onto the aircraft!! :\

[Final 3 Greens]

Bangkokeasy

Difficult to say how the CC found the rounds.

Just speculating, maybe...

- the pax next to him saw them and reported it
- they dropped out of the luggage onto the floor
- the luggage was in a suspicious looking carrier bag - with Giovanni's Gunshop printed on it :}

etc

The news story says that the pax was elderly. In my experience some elderly people are very sharp and others get quite confused about things - maybe this gentleman was in the latter category.

Anyway, it sounds to have been handled reasonably sensibly, in that it was recognised that a genuine mistake had been made - although a 2 hour delay is a bummer for the pax and the airline.

[DDF]

As the story goes the elderly passenger tried to tell the dispatcher when he walked up the stairs that he had ammunition in his pocket 8-10 rounds. The dispatcher hinted to him to say nothing and carry on boarding. This was seen by the one of the crew who asked to see what was in his pocket. All quite innocent but raises the question how did he get through security with them in the first place. I suspect if a weapon was also on his person then that would have been detected.

Well done to the crew I say :)

[Polehill.flt70]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5032026.stm

Plane passenger 'had ammunition'

A man was removed from an Easyjet plane at Naples airport in Italy after ammunition was found in his hand luggage by cabin crew.
The passenger, who is thought to be Italian and described as elderly, was stopped before the flight took off for Stansted airport.

He was taken from the plane and is being questioned by local police.

An Easyjet spokeswoman said it was "not acceptable" that the man was able to get past airport security.

She praised the Easyjet crew for their actions




What the hell were the cabin crew doing in his bag anyway? Something along the line of 'excuse me miss, could you put this in my bag for me?' Yes it has been screened and yes it has passed security, but as mentioned on a few of the posts, something could have been put together after security. Is it common practice for cabin crew to go into someones hand luggage when asked? or other than an emergency? Congrats for them informing the pilot and the subsequent removal, but why were they in there in the first place?

:- P

[Final 3 Greens]

DDF

Well done to the crew I say

Yes, I'd second that. It's very easy to forget that they are there primarily for flight safety and it sounds as if they were on the ball, seeing something that they were concerned about and dealing with it.

Even though it turned out to be quite innocent, the crew did not know that at the time and deserve to be commended for their vigilance and resolute action in my opinion.

[Leodis]

Flipside Up

Well, firstly I think that you mean "plane", not plain.

Grammar is obviously not your strength?



I would stick to your teaching job then if I were you, as you know nothing about the profession of aviation security.

[Final 3 Greens]

Leodis

I didn't realize that "aviation security" had the status of a profession.

What is the name of the relevant professional body and when did it gain a Royal Charter or similar recognition?

By the way a profession is a body of professionals, with a professional attitude.

The posts from FLIPSIDEUP and you (if you indeed work in aviation security) do not seem to me to display a professional attitude.

[SkySista]

Pole, non-security personnel (such as cabin or check-in crew) in my experience can often become aware of such banned items due to things like:

-helping pax with bag, hear clinking noises, ask what's inside
-unusually heavy bag weight for size of bag
-happen to see inside when pax fiddling with bag/taking things out

It's not likely the crew just decided to look through someone's bag; they would have had a good reason to... :)

[graphitestick]

If the passenger was off loaded at Naples then surely it was the Italian security that missed the ammo, not security from the UK.
I'm tired of the criticism of the security guys on PPRUNE, where is the praise when the job is done properly. Do you know how many people we have caught coming through with ammo, knives and other dangerous items because they either have a memory the size of a gnat or don't think the rules apply to them. You would think 9/11 had never happened talking to these people.