FAA ATP TO JAA

[flyingtonka]

I am planning to do the FAA to JAA conversion soon and have many conflicting stories of how to do it and how many exams need to be taken.

Before I contact the CAA at Gatwick I would like to pose a few questions to those of you who have done the conversion since Europe went from CAA to JAA:

1. How many exams need to be done if you allready hold an FAA ATP 3000+ hours, 2000+ of which are turbine, 500+ of which are multi crew (second in command) in S76.?

2. Which subjects of the 14 written exams need to be done?

3. What "credits" did the UK CAA / JAA give to a person holding an FAA ATP 3000+ hours (as detailed above)?

Any good info is always appreciated

[puntosaurus]

It's all in section G3.5 of LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF) The experience requirements referred to in JAR-FCL 2.280 are those for a new JAA ATPL ie those in section G3.2.

Basically you need to do thirteen exams. Under the transitional arrangements you do all the fixed wing papers (14) excluding Principles of Flight and Performance but including a Helicopter Principles of Flight 'in the style of the JAA exam'.

For exemptions see G3.5 Note: ATPL (H) holders who have a minimum of 1000
hours flying experience as PIC or Co-pilot on
multi-pilot helicopters and hold a valid multi-pilot type
rating for the helicopter to be used for the ATPL (H)
skill test and have at least 500 hours experience as
pilot on that type, will be exempted from the
requirements to complete an approved TRTO course
or undergo approved training prior to undertaking the
theoretical knowledge examinations, and the skill test.
Pilots with less than 500 hours experience as pilot on
the type to be used for the ATPL (H) skill test will be
exempted from the requirements to undergo approved
training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge
examinations but will still be required to complete an
approved type rating course. However, the course may
be reduced to take account of previous experience on
the same type upon recommendation by the TRTO to
PLD.
The holder of a current and valid ATPL (H) who does
not qualify for the grant of a JAR-FCL ATPL (H), as
detailed above, can still apply for a JAR-FCL CPL (H)/
IR, details can be found in Section D3.5.

[Oogle]

The UK has yet to come into the 21st century.

13 exams! Unbelieveable. It's basically...."we don't know if you know your stuff so we will test you anyway..."

As Puntosaurus laid out, the only breathing space you will get is for the skills test (flight test).

Also, the theory can be done one of two ways. Integrated (full-time) or modular (part-time).

One of the Pprune supporters (Bristol Ground School) have a modular theory course on offer whereby you can do distance learning then spend two weeks with them prior to the exams - its all on the website.

Cost of manuals, etc £1900.

For what its worth.

[flyingtonka]

Is there any substance to the rumours that there are talks of a more harmonious conversion from FAA ATP to the European JAA ATP?

I am hearing that there are talks of a "world" licence or a rotorcraft conversion that will not require all 13 written exams to be done - more like just the principle of flight and air law to be taken?

I currently hold the FAA ATP with 4000+ hours flying corporate medium twins IFR and am a little surprised that the only route available right now is for me to start from scratch again!

I have figured out that Bristol Ground School is a great place to study for the writtens if I have to go down the "start from scratch" route, but if any of you JAA pilots know of other avenues I need to explore in order to gain the conversion .......... please let me know,.

Thanks in advance for your help

[Whirlygig]

Haven't heard the rumour. I can understand Air Law having to be taken for each country and I would have thought Communications would be imprtant but Principles of Flight? I know I'm merely a trainee CPL but surely they would be the same all over the world?

Cheers

Whirls

[Oogle]

Flying tonka.

Welcome to the land of "you don't know crap until you have been given a UK CAA frontal labotomy".

I posted an earlier topic regarding some of the useless information required by the ATPL(H) syllabus and most agreed. I am not a permanent part of the UK helicopter scene anymore these days but wanted to ask the question of how the industry allowed these absolutely ridiculous requirements to be implemented by the CAA.

Sorry for ranting on. The answer to your question is - THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS!!! All 13 exams for the ATPL(H) PLUS an IR and all must be done within 3 years otherwise you turn into a pumpkin (could be 5 years - can't quite remember).

You will also have to find out how much flying training you need to do to attempt the flight test. This will be assessed by the head of flying training at a flying school.

Sorry for the doom and gloom.:{

[BigMike]

Ok, so what's the process to change the rules? Why doesn't industry push for this or is it because of a vested interest in keeping the status-quo?

UK to Australia is only an Air-law exam and flight-test, and same to most other places. Why isn't this recipical? Does the UK, and JAA in general, really think that making overseas qualified pilots re-sit all the exams again have any real merit, other than to line the theory school's pockets? Look at the rules for type ratings, what a joke. A guy with less than 500 hours on type has to re-do the rating in the UK to see if he's up to standard... your system is simply ridiculous.

[tgilson]

Flyingtonka ......

Have been in the exact same situation with about the same experience. I would suggest you contact the CAA and apply for an assessment - I did this and was exempt from the navs but had to do all the techs which is at least a bit of a break. The only thing is that it was back in 1995 ( pre - JAA ) so it is probably different now but worth a try !

On the flying side , I saw Mike Smith at Heliair who thought that with my experience I shouldn't have to do anything !!! He found a reg. that said as long as I had more than 50hrs on my FAA ATPL they would give me a CAA one. I ended up doing a general handling flight in a B206 and got my ATPL.

Bit I think it has all changed with twin time and IR these days - but still maybe worth a go. Best of luck.

Tony.

[flyingtonka]

Yep.........the rules are typically English!

Jump through the hoops laddie!

I am from the UK and wish to return to fly there, I have flown numerous aircraft while in instrument meteorlogical conditions within complex airspace such as Kennedy International (JFK) to name but a few.

But, if I wish to fly back in the UK I have to start from scatch as a new boy?

We do not make the rules, we adhere to them, but someone somewhere in the JAA system should get real and make the conversion for experienced pilots a bit more practical and alot more realistic. There should be a governing body that regulates licence conversions and make them reciprocal and comparable in standards to participating countries worldwide.

Any good comments from experienced European pilots out there?

Fly Safe Guys.

[Darren999]

Flyig Tonka.

Like you, I am from the UK currently working here in the US flying a AS350. I am going for my ATPL checkride some time in December, and at some stage would like perhaps to return home and fly there. To be near my family. So I would welcome any advice to help convert over to a JAA ATPL, if that's ever possible. Bit to fat for hoop jumping now, and my poor knees too..

Darren

[LUXSTAR]

9 EXAMS.....AT DRAGON HELICOPTERS....YOU DONT NEED THE ATPL..JAA..CPL WILL DO....YOU HAVE THE HOURS TO TAKE IT THROUGH....LUX

[Whirlygig]

Luxstar,

if these chaps already have FAA ATPL licences, why should they go back to CPL and not use their instrument rating. The CPL will also restrict the mass of aircraft which they are entitled to fly (and, for which, they may be already type-rated).

In their circumstances, a CPL would not be the way to go. I should also point out that there is more than one ground school provider for CPL(H).

Cheers

Whirls

[jab]

I am also trying to get the JAA ATP, I have the FAA ATP but as you have found, that means nothing in the UK. I have investigated the ground schools in the UK but there are also ground schools in the US which offer the JAA exams. The schools in the US are a lot cheaper than in the UK. So far, I have only found schools which do the fixed-wing ATP, not helicopters. I believe there are only two of the 13 or 14 examinations which are different for helicopters.

Does anyone know if there are any schools in the US where you can do the helicopter examinations and preferably the flight test too? I have been in contact with HAI in Titusville, FL and they can only do the flight test, not the theory.

Please help!

[flyingtonka]

The exams (until modified by JAA) are the exact same ones for fixed wingwith the exception of principles of flight. The JAA has some drafts for the helicopter exams but are not yet implemented.
HAI in Titusville does the theory and the flight tests. Their ground school lasts for approx nine months because the ground school is run in conjunction with the Bristows flight training programme.

I do not know of any other place offering the JAA exams. If you know any in the New York area........ please let me know.

Also, if anyone knows of ANY schools offering the JAA exams anywhere in the U.S, please let me know.

Tailwinds,

[highfinal]

Hi FT,

I did the helicopter JAA/FAA combined course at HAI, and the the facilities there are excellent, and the staff very knowledgeable.

The course is more helicopter oriented than you've been told, Principles of Flight, Mass & Balance, Performance are all helicopter only, and the overall question bank is increasing rotary based, judging by my exams Vs the previous students. The course has changed a bit since then I've heard, as JAR keep moving the goalposts, but nothing too drastic. Contact George Bedford or Sam Willenbacher at HAI (www.heli.com)

You can also study yourself by distance learning with Oxford Aviation (www.oxfordaviation.net), the cost is comparable, however you will need to go and sit with them for some refresher ground school before sitting the exams, and you need to sit them in the UK. I've seen their material and it is first rate, some excellent interactive software in addition to the books.

One last thing though - you can learn the subjects back to front as I did, and still be challenged by the wording of some of the questions - you NEED to be able to have access to feedback questions to learn how they like to phrase things. In Air Law in particular this can mean the difference between pass and fail.

Most people at HAI's more recent courses that studied hard averaged in the 90% range for pretty much everything.

Good luck with your studies!

[chuks]

Check out www.caa.co.uk/srg for information direct from the CAA.

I believe it's similar to what I discovered for a f/w ATPL. One can swap a non-JAR ICAO ATPL for a UK ATPL with just 3 writtens but then that's only valid on UK-registered aircraft. For JAR validity one has to do all 14 tests.

I have a Nigerian ATPL (Airplane) so that was what I was asking about. I don't think the FAA license does much for you, although I did once get a German CPL-IFR (Airplane) on the strength of one.

Another snag is that one must do an initial Class 1 medical with the CAA at Aviation House, Gatwick Airport, London. That costs about 275 pounds, including a preliminary eye examination with a civilian optometrist. One must pre-pay when booking, by credit card. At least there is a free bus service from the South Terminal of Gatwick Airport that saves you a taxi fare.

Since everyone got on this JAR bandwagon things seem to have really tightened up. Good luck!

Check out Naples Air Center for US-based training. They have an advert on the training part of this website, actually.

[paco]

I did hear a rumour about a more harmonious conversion, but it won't be any time soon

Phil

[wolferj]

ok I do 14 writtens and then what???


where do I rent the jaa examiner= the Embraer 145 sim???

[spinwing]

Mmmm....

Well if you think having to do the exams is tough...

I hold various bit of paper from all around the world... and have maintained a current Ist class medical from either Australia or the USA (or as required) in order to exercise the privillages of those various bits of paper except ONE ...

Yep my UK ATPL-H which I obtained in 1980 has expired, and due to not having a UK CAA designated medical examiner accessable/available in my area (of Australia) I have been informed by the "Airship Pilots" of the UK CAA FCL that in order to renew that licence I have to present myself to the medical section at Gatwick, in person so that they my count my arm and legs and hold some fingers in the air (for me to count no doubt!) and then watch me write out a cheque (to prove literacy?) for an exorbitant amount so as to renew that "bit of paper".

You would have thought a 1st class medical was a 1st class medical ??? particularly the (Ozzie ?)

So say $2000 for the airfare, £350+ for the medical £??? for the licence renewal, accomodation and expenses £??? ....

A rough guess would be $5000 aussies for a licence renewal ???

"Howzat"! (AND we let them win the Ashes this year!)



:* :* :* :( ;)

[Buitenzorg]

BigMike, let’s see if we can answer all your questions.
Ok, so what's the process to change the rules?
There isn’t one. The CAA know everything, they never make mistakes, so nobody will ever want any rules the CAA promulgate to be changed.
Why doesn't industry push for this or is it because of a vested interest in keeping the status-quo?
During the development of the JARs, input for flight crew licensing requirements was sought almost exclusively from the flight training industry. More training equates to more money for this industry.
UK to Australia is only an Air-law exam and flight-test, and same to most other places. Why isn't this recipical?
Because then everybody would run off to some place where they’d get realistic, useful training without heaps of additional trivia they’d never use after passing the exam, and pay normal rates for it, leaving the overpriced nitpickers in the JAA zone without their guaranteed customers.
Does the UK, and JAA in general, really think that making overseas qualified pilots re-sit all the exams again have any real merit, other than to line the theory school's pockets?
Well, yes. Other than the theory school, you also have to pay the CAA to sit these exams, which at 13 exams X a pretty penny = heaps of dosh.
Look at the rules for type ratings, what a joke. A guy with less than 500 hours on type has to re-do the rating in the UK to see if he's up to standard... your system is simply ridiculous.
Now look here old boy! WE invented flying, don’t you forget it, so we know what’s best and everybody knows you pay for the best and if you don’t want the best then frankly we don’t want you around I tell you these colonials another brandy James…

[chuks]

From a US American perspective this whole situation is kind of strange.

Many moons ago I had some time on my hands so that I decided to do the FAA ATP written (ONE test). I had glommed a Jeppesen course book from a guy whose 'stovebolt 6' Chevrolet engine I had overhauled, plus I bought the latest version of the questions and answers to the test.

I holed up in my flat in Charlotte studying for one week straight, only emerging blinking into the daylight to take my evening meal in a cheap bistro.

When I was ready I booked the exam with a phone call, went in the next day, took it and passed with 93%. Total cost, about $50.

A few days brush-up in a BE-95 Travel Air ($800 for 10 hours, 'wet'), $100 for the examiner and I was an Airline Transport Pilot.

Another time, I needed an FAA FE license. Same story; one week living like a hermit with a DC-6 Flight Crew Operating Manual and the current Q & A for FE Reciprocating, followed by a trip to Burnside Ott at Opa Locka and another 93%. A few days of riding around in a DC-6 and then a practical test in a DC-7 and, presto, I was an FE! (Just to show the license to get into a certain African country, since I was only going to fly 400-series Cessnas.)

Now, for a JAR ATPL, I have to go to school from mid-November until the end of next June. I don't even want to think about what all this is going to cost, but it's going to be a case of leaking cash while waiting to become theoretically employable, every pilot's nightmare.

The (very expensive) JAR writtens are only available at certain venues at certain times, when there's no practical reason why one could not do them anywhere there's a telephone line to connect you to JAA Central, say.

Certainly from my time futzing around with the German LuftfahrtBehinderungsAmt (LBA) I got the idea they were trying to protect their local market from new boys trying to come in. And I think that might be the case with the JARs, that each regulatory body is thinking of how to put a spoke in the wheel of anyone trying to come in. It is just a sort of regulatory reflex, if you will.

The most galling aspect of this, as a Yankee, is that Europeans have relatively free access to a US license, when we accept their credentials at face value. Showing up with a US license in Europe is held to be a joke, on the other hand. Spare me the stuff about getting the US license off the back of a cereal box; there should be more reciprocity across the whole regulatory spectrum IMHO.

To go back to school after having flown as a professional for years is the only option, yes. I shall just have to get in line along with everyone else who wants a JAR license. It's not that I am being discriminated against.

A bigger question might be if this sort of thing being allowed is why aviation seems to be much more robust in the States, in many ways. I see some sort of situation where there is a small European market for pilots so that the regulators seem to be putting a brake on the supply of pilots rather than thinking of how to grow the market.

[332mistress]

As somebody already inside the CAA bubble I think that they are brilliant and wouldn't want them to change anything.

It is hard for people to get licenses for the UK so there are fewer experienced pilots. The experienced pilots become a high value item and need paying as such so pay goes up. Brilliant:ok:

Keep up the good work CAA;)

332M

[Oogle]

332

Get that plumb out of your mouth - PLEASE!!!

That is exactly the reason why the whole UK CAA licencing is up the creek.

Good enough for the rest of the world but not for the CAA.

Protectionism of the "old boys club" at its best.

I've said it before and I will say it again - knowing a book (even 13 books) from cover to cover does not make a better pilot.

I can see you will be a Govt. employee until you retire. :mad:

[autosync]

Yep!!

Instead of sitting around moaning get your head in the books!

And then when you are on the inside looking out you can see the benefits of not having the market flooded with thousands of Antipodean or HAI grads!

:ok:

[332mistress]

Oogle

Rattled your cage did I;) I stopped being a government employee about 20yrs ago and I hate plums - was that a racial remark by the way;)

By hard work and going head to head with the companies we have managed to increase the pay of helicopter pilots in the UK - which is why there are so many people trying to get in and whinging when some hurdles are put in their way. There is no ban on "aliens" (to use the American term) as we have many different nationalities in my company. It just needs hard work to get the better rewards.

What we don't want is, as Autosync said, is an influx of pilots who don't meet our stringent requirements who will dilute the market and give the companies the upper hand in any future pay negotiations.

The CAA is doing us all a favour by keeping the standards high and long may it continue:ok:

332M

[Oogle]

332M

It is sad to hear that you somehow think the CAA is "protecting" your way of life by somehow making it hard for not just overseas pilots coming into your turf but also student UK pilots coming up to the plate.

I will say it again - If you think that ALL that theory is going to make a better pilot you are dreaming.

I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots.

But hey, they must have been good because they had a UK pilot licence ;)

Keep the standards high - fully agree! But don't think that by keeping out overseas pilots via a protectionist licencing system is somehow good for your pay negotiations. Pay negotiations carry on no matter how many pilots are waiting in-line.:hmm:

I hope for your sake your bubble doesn't burst too soon.:p

[332mistress]

Oogle

You fail to understand the UK market. We are JAA now so anybody with a JAA license and is an EC citizen can work in the UK. The JAA license requirements are perhaps a bit stiffer than the old CAA ones

The big companies CHC/Bristow/Bond are now addressing their recruitment regimes and going in for psychometric testing, sim rides etc along with the recruitment of abinitio pilots to fill bonded co-pilot slots.

It is still possible to gain employment as a Non EC citizen but you do need to get the JAA license.

Your comment: -

"I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots"

is rather immature and doesn't help your argument.

Yes the theory exams are a bind but like anything in life if you want it you have to jump through the hoops to get it.

Once again economic realities hit the companies when there is a shortage of "suitably" qualified pilots so this has benefited us in our negotiations for increased pay and retention of our pension scheme.

My bubble won't burst until I retire.:ok:

332M

[paco]

oogle

Knowledge does make you a better pilot. Granted, it's a bit difficult to understand why you need to know how a CRT works, but I have used the departure formula in N Alberta when calculating bearings in my head, plus a lot of other stuff I never thought I would use.

The reason why you need to know so much about radio propagation is because it is actually part of the amateur radio syllabus, of which the pilot's licence is a cut-down version. It's also very handy knowing that you have to increase the frequency during the day to get through to the ops office on HF to find out what you are doing the next day.

I would recommend that you get every scrap of knowledge that you can, because gaps in knowledge tend to become painfully obvious on interviews.

In the USA, Canada, etc, the stuff you think is irrelevant now actually gets taught to you during ground training, type ratings, etc. The JAA take the view that there's no guarantee that you will get this, so they make sure you get it before you start.

I do think, though, that there is the sense that whoever sets the questions has no deep knowledge of the subject matter - it’s as if a secretary had been given the task, together with a big book to make the selection from. There's a lot needs to be done on the administration of exams. If Canada can have the results back to you within 3 minutes from Ottawa, on top of taking any exam during office hours, then JAA can do it as well.

Phil

[BigMike]

Fair comment Phil, and you are right, you can never know too much.
The problem really is the fact that people have to pay a fairly large sum of money, and waste a lot of time, to pass something that they already have. Nothing wrong with setting a high standard, but why can't an overseas guy sit a conversion type exam to ensure they ARE at that standard? Why spend weeks at a school studying something you already have? In fact, why the compulsory hours in the classroom when you could self-study?

Surely an audit of overseas ATPL exams could establish if they meet the same level as JAA, in which case there is no reason to not make recognition recipical.

Anyway, back to the study! I'm enjoying your book Phil, very impressed.

Cheers BM

[paco]

<blush>Aw shucks!

In getting my own distance learning course under way, I have picked up that there are moves afoot in that direction. There are people in there that want to do this, but they've got to get past the committee! And I hear you about self-study!

It's the same nonsense that dictates that Chief Engineers now need degrees in engineering, because all engineers in Germany have degrees.

phil

[helibuzzer]

I hope I don't beat a dead horse, but...

Could somebody explain me the newest deal on the conversion from a FAA ATP (H) (1000 Multiengine Medium) to a JAA ATPL(H).

Let's say I just take the written test in the UK, and then go to Norway with it toget a job and let the company pay for my checkride/Type rating?

and

Is there any school out there that provides an online training, so you're not required to sit in class for 10 straight weeks ?

Inputs are greatly apreciated,
tailwinds:uhoh:

[Whirlygig]

Have a chat with Bristol Ground School / Atlantic Flight Training/ Bournemoth Commercial Flight Training (to name a few) as you may well be exempt part of the classroom stuff. The rest would be distance learning.

Cheers

Whirls

[Pandalet]

Bristol can be found at http://www.bristol.gs

(as well as next to Wales, apparently :ok:)

[helibuzzer]

thanxs for the info

[170']

Helibuzzer

You can contact Phil Croucher on [email protected]

I don't know the full story, but I know he's been putting a new book or download together for this type of scenario

I'm going thru a conversion right now, and will post a complete rundown once I'm done.

PM me if you have specific Q's

Good luck with it!....170

[paco]

An ATP holder with 1000 hours on multi-crew aircraft can just breeze in and take the exams - if you have 500 on the type used for the skill test, you don't have to go through a TRTO course, either. There's an exemption tick box on the application form.

You would be unwise to go for the exams without any kind of study, but PM me if you have any questions!

cheers

Phil